Two Florida cities know just how to deal with those pesky 5 and 6 year old girls.

[madfloridian]

Just handcuff them, arrest them, and shove them in the police car. One even got charged with a felony and two misdemeanors, mug shot and all.

We are tough on our five and six year old girls here. We let them know who is boss.

From 2005 in St. Petersburg, Florida:

Handcuffed 5-Year-Old Sparks Suit

CBS/AP) An attorney says he plans legal action against St. Petersburg (Fla.) police officers who handcuffed an unruly 5-year-old girl after she acted up in her kindergarten class.

A video camera, which was rolling March 14 as part of a teacher's classroom self-improvement exercise, captured images of the girl tearing papers off a bulletin board, climbing on a table and punching an assistant principal before police were called to Fairmount Park Elementary School.

Then it shows the child appearing to calm down before three officers approach, pin her arms behind her back and put on handcuffs as she screamed, "No!"

After placing the child in the back of a police cruiser, police released her to her mother when prosecutors informed them they wouldn't bring charges against a 5-year-old.

And from this week, in another city in Florida...keeping the world safe from 5 and 6 year old girls.

Kindergarten Girl Handcuffed, Arrested At Fla. School

AVON PARK, Fla. -- Police arrested a 6-year-old Florida girl and even handcuffed her when she acted out in class. Police officers said Desre'e Watson, a kindergarten student at Avon Elementary School in Highlands County, had a violent run-in with a teacher on Thursday.

"I was scared," the little girl said.

Police claim the little girl got angry and began kicking and scratching. She even hit a teacher attempting to intervene in the disturbance.

However, the girl's mother doesn't believe the story.

...."The kindergartner was booked in the Highland County jail and was charged with a felony and two misdemeanors.

Don't come to our state and do the crime if you can't do the time. We know how to deal with criminals here.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

[TomInTib]

1. They should have arrested the parents/guardians

Any kid that acts out like this is coming from a bad place.

[John Q. Citizen]

2. They do arrest them when they drive.....

[Jcrowley]

15. Like as in the entire culture?

[rug]

17. Sure, then they could put the kids in foster care when the parents can't post bail.

Or maybe they can just use common sense.

[depakid]

44. Common sense is seemingly not a highly regarded virtue

in states like Florida.

[bread_and_roses]

66. Oh, RIGHT! That's the answer! Lets put MORE people in prison!

I guess we don't have enough there, the prison-industrial complex isn't big enough, even though we have more people in prison than anywhere else in the civilized world, and probably most of the rest of the world too...I can't remember all the stats.

Then lets put all the children in one of those child detention centers, where they seem to be physically abused and sexually molested with rather appalling frequesncy.

[ProudDad]

86. Spoken like

a true authoritarian freeper...

Amazing!

Or, is your post another April Fools prank, tomintib?

[MrSlayer]

3. Arresting them might be taking it a bit too far.

But clearly they have serious problems if they are acting like that in school and the teachers felt they had no choice. The parents need to be questioned because they are obviously not doing their job at home.

[madfloridian]

4. Yes, they were really tough little kids.

But our brave police men took care of that. And our school authorities stood by bravely and let it happen.

They sure showed them.

Big cowboys with big boots and big guns overpowered those two girls.

[MrSlayer]

14. Well you know you really can't do anything physical to them.

Because you'll be the one who gets sued, which is bullshit but that's the way it is. They had to call the cops. What would you have suggested they do? Obviously talking reasonably would have gotten you nowhere.

[madfloridian]

18. In all the many years I taught....

I handled all kinds of things. What the response here shows me is that there is now a mindset of toughness. I am not sure when it happened. But it is shocking to me how many here at DU think arresting little girls is ok.

Think about it, wrap your mind about it. You are saying it is ok to arrest little girls.

I will leave that thought to you to handle, because I can not wrap my head around it. I guess it is the military mindset, the cowboy with the biggest boots mindset.

Or maybe it is just a racist thing. Not sure. All the outrages mentioned in this thread refer to African Americans. Maybe it is just that simple.

Or maybe it is the change that happened when Bush took over this country.

[MrSlayer]

20. Well no. That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that we live in such a litigious society that the problem could not be handled by the teachers because they would get sued. It's come to the point where they have to call the cops. When I was a kid a nun would have grabbed the kid by the hair and slapped the shit out of him with a yardstick and the bullshit would end right then and there and the parents would have said thanks. These days if you even try to restrain the kids you are the one gets arrested and sued so you let the cops handle it.

You have yet to say what exactly you would have done to stop it.

[madfloridian]

21. I just said I taught many years and dealt with far worse.

There are so many ways to deal with it. I posted this because it is painful to see it. What is more painful is people trying to put ME on the spot instead of seeing the issues involved.

That is the worst part.

[MrSlayer]

22. I'm not trying to put you on the spot.

I'm just interested in what methods you might think would work other than slapping them down or calling the cops. Truly, I'd like to know. You have experience and said you have dealt with worse so please enlighten me on how you did it. I do enjoy learning new things.

[madfloridian]

24. I don't think I will summarize my teaching techniques for you.

I don't see why I should, really. You should know I posted here many years, that I don't make up stuff. I could do it. But since I have been retired a while, it would take time.

I quit having interns near the end of my teaching. They drove me crazy with their inability to control children. Their professors drove me crazy trying to explain why they could not handle kids. So though it was usually worth a free course at a nearby college I told the education dept to spare me.

Their interns were of poor quality because Florida is a lousy state for teachers. Bottom line. You want good teachers you pay for them and treat them with respect.

If that answer is not enough for you, then I won't worry about it.

For defending Desre's rights today, I have been treated rudely. Something is wrong here.

[MrSlayer]

25. I apologize if I came off as rude.

Cold words on a screen have no inflection or emotion and can easily be misconstrued. I am not questioning the truth of your words, I genuinely was looking for some insight. I will not press you further. Have a good evening.

[madfloridian]

31. Thanks.

I posted some below.

[sandnsea]

26. Give 'em a bowl of ice cream

Calms down every single 5 year old I've ever worked with. Then you go back to your behavioral program and if you don't have one, you get one. Geesh. This isn't rocket science, it really isn't. The problem is adults with a mind-set that insists authoritarianism must win out, every single time.

[madfloridian]

39. Actually that is along the lines of how some of it works.

Part of it is taking time out with a little snack handed out, and getting desks pulled together to discuss.

Things like that don't always work, but arrangements can be made with the principal and asst. principals offices ahead of time for difficult kids.

It might be different in higher grades, but there is just no reason to arrest kindergarteners.

[Forkboy]

40. Hell,that would work with me!

[ProudDad]

87. It's simple

you hold the child tightly until she calms down.

I've seen it work.

Calling the cops on a 6 year old is bullshit on every level.

[roguevalley]

34. This whole business has been brewing up for years. I cannot tell

you how many times I have seen kids in my school trash entire classrooms or end up penned in a room with three women holding the door shut while they slammed against it trying to get out. They were first and second graders by the way. Psychotic but still in the classroom. I got a sixth grade boy that the previous year had been taken out in handcuffs. You should have seen his IEP. Two inches thick. I have gotten boys who were hallucinating and girls who talked to themselves and wandered off if not watched. I had them along with the rest and was expected to teach. Anyone who has never had a psychotic kid go off on them, really tearing it up, cannot expect to understand the hell that is public education now.

[mopinko]

48. mental illness in children is exploding.

if you have never had to deal with it yourself, you have no idea. i'm not saying that taking 6 year olds out in handcuffs is a good thing. but i will tell you that there is not much else available to deal with it on a real time basis. there really isn't. luckily, i never had to call the cops on my kid, but i came close a couple of times. that was the only advice that the professionals involved could give me.
mental illness is occurring more often, and at younger ages. it is a real epidemic. and the schools are holding the bag, which is the real fucking crime here.
and although i know that parent bashing is an olympic sport around here, most parents do the best they can. parents are not what causes mentally ill kids. neurochemistry is. bashing parents mired in this swamp only makes it harder to get help. so, people ought to remember to walk a mile....

[ProudDad]

90. Mental illness in children

is exploding because this authoritarian police state would be world empire called the U.S. doesn't care about its children.

They'd rather piss away $700 Billion on the fucking war machine than to adequately staff and fund schools.

By the way, Cuban schools don't have these problems. Of course, they treasure their children -- ALL of their children and actually have a single-payer universal health care system.

[FormerDem06]

117. I respectfully disagree

is exploding because this authoritarian police state would be world empire called the U.S. doesn't care about its children.

They'd rather piss away $700 Billion on the fucking war machine than to adequately staff and fund schools.

======================================================================================================

US schools are staffed, teachers just can't do anything with respect to disclipline, and they are getting ZERO help from PARENTS these day.

My son (who is now homeschooled) was held behind a door and kicked in the head repeatedly by a child who had been classified as behavoirally and emotionally handicapped (BEH). Since the child was classified as such, he could not be punished or expelled in the state of NC. This was in Kindergarten.

I watched another BEH kid in the same class slap another kid, jump on top of him and punch him repeatedly in LUNCH LINE. When I stepped in as a parent volunteer to break it up, I was told by a teacher I needed to back up and let the staff handle it. They called the resource officer for fear of getting hurt themselves, and stood there watching this thing unfold. After about 20 more seconds I finally stepped in; removed the kid myself and held him arms firmly, knelt down and told him NO. He calmed down and sat down immediately. he looked like I had kneed him in the groin because somebody finally told him no (his teacher sure wouldn't).

In my State (North Carolina) the schools are trying to mainstream EVERY kid regardless of their physical, behavioral, or emotional handicap. All of the other kids are suffering because of this.

[ProudDad]

89. No Offense

but why are you accepting this state of affairs?

If it were me, I'd be at every School Board meeting kicking ass until they did something proactive about ameliorating this situation.

[LostinVA]

59. It shocks me too, madfloridian

Just as many praised the Tasering of the elementary school girl last year.

Five-year-olds acting out in class being arrested? Kept at jail? CHARGED WITH FELONIES? OMG. It is appalling. My friends who are teachers think it is, too.

Why cops? Jeebus.

Unless that child is holding a loaded gun aimed at someone, how the hell is this criminal?

[bread_and_roses]

69. Oh, right! CLEARLY the parents are bad parents, there's never another reason

that a child may have problems. And while we're bashing parents, lets make sure that they have to work four jobs between them to survive, or are living with unbearable financial stress if they don't. Lets make sure there's no after school care, no full day Kindergarden in many places, that your pre-school experience depends on your parents financial resources, and that if they are poor you might go to Kindergarden without ever having a box of crayons of your own. Lets make sure there are entire communities without a park or pool to take children to, and schools with insufficient supplies that send home lists for parents who can't pay the electric bill to buy.

Oh, and of course, if you have a child with medical or pyschological problems, lets make sure that there are insufficient resources to get help unless you are well-off. But make sure that advertisers are free to sell to infants, toddlers, pre-schoolers, grade-schoolers by bombarding them with ads for expensive toys and fattening foods 24/7.

AND lets under-staff and over-crowd classrooms, and pay Teachers Aides poverty wages.

Right, it's always the parents fault.

[ProudDad]

92. Self Delete

misunderstood your post.

[Imagevision]

5. Cops should have shot them...like in New York, age shouldn't matter...

[Spacemom]

6. It's called a temper tantrum

and yes, even 5 and 6 year olds can have them.

When did people forget how to deal with these? It's nothing new, and it seems like only recently schools have started calling the police in cases like this.

[madfloridian]

8. Well, they better stop having those temper tantrums in Florida.

Sorry for the sarcastic tone, but I have to do it when I see stuff like this. I don't have any other way of dealing with it in my mind. It seems too extreme.

Yes, they are tantrums, and anyone who has taught young children has seen them and should know how to handle them.

On edit, not being sarcastic with you...just feeling such anger at how this came to be.

[Bronyraurus]

85. Well, you can't smack em on the butt anymore

Teachers' hands are kind of tied. A trip downtown will probably shut those kids up.

[gollygee]

49. I know - this is amazing

5- and 6-year-olds have been having temper tantrums since the beginning of time. This is nothing new. Isn't there anyone at an elementary school who knows anything about how to deal with children?

[badgerpup]

116. On a board where the subject was similiar to this...

...a woman advocated throwing cold water- yep, real H20- on the child who was acting out or having the tantrum.
She claimed she'd done this with her own children...in public...and after telling them that if they didn't quit screaming and get up off the floor, they were going to get wet.
According to her, it stopped the tantrum right there...and there weren't any repetitions of public tantrums.

Kids were about four and five, IIRC...

thoughts on this?

[gollygee]

118. That's what my mom did to me

can't comment more than that. LOL

[madfloridian]

7. And when you steal hedge clippers and such stuff, you get the SWAT team.

DAVID MILLS/LEDGER PHOTOS
Polk County sheriff's deputies and Lakeland Police SWAT officers walk Old Dixie Highway following a standoff with an armed man who was barricaded in a mobile home at Tower Manor Mobile Home Park near Lakeland on Thursday. The suspect, 26-year-old Moises Torres, surrendered after a four-hour standoff in which tear gas was fired into the home.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

[REP]

9. They're Trying To Avoid Being Sued By The Precious Darlings' Parents

these out-of-control brats need to be brought into control, but it is dangerous - legally - for school perrsonnel to touch them, so they call the police. from the descriptions of how these children were acting, the right call was made, and it seems the parents think their children can do no wrong and have never saidf "no" to them in their entire lives.

[madfloridian]

10. Yes, the "right call" was made. They better not act like that here.

They sure won't get away with it in Florida.

That's what I said. Florida knows how to handle those tough little 5 and 6 year olds.

[Jcrowley]

19. Control is important

the children must be subdued. It's back to the unit or the nuclear family. Atomization. Do not look at the violence inherent in the system. I repeat...

[bread_and_roses]

107. good post - on target (n/t)

[roguevalley]

35. yeah. I hear men aren't going into teaching because of the idea

of 'touching'. Its rather tremendously hard out there because a lot of parents are nuts. Psychos. And when you combined ill-trained kids, psycho parents and craven administration, you find yourself alone and vulnerable and on your way to jail if you don't watch out.

[Blue_Tires]

95. true

i've been a sub teacher for about a year, and i've been shocked at how few men there are in schools compared to when i was a student 15-20 years ago...the 1-2 men you do see are either the janitor or P.E. teacher (so many kids call me "Miss" instead of "Mister" out of habit)

and yes, i've had my share of headaches as well...I don't for one second think the police needed to be called in, but this story reads like more than a mere 'tantrum' like some in this thread are calling it, imo...I have seen more than my share of emotionally disturbed and violent students harming other classmates, and I only work in the elementary schools...IMO, the school in the story needs better internal safeguards on how to prevent escalation in these situations when they come up (counselors, etc--luckily the system i teach in has a good amount of safeguards)

[mopinko]

52. you sure do not know that.

you have no idea what it is like to raise a mentally ill child, which is what this sounds like. yes, no, maybe, rational discussions do not work. and for all you know, these kids never heard the word yes.

[bread_and_roses]

70. Good points. And parent bashing IS an olymic sport sometimes

around here. A fair number of "the good old days of beating kids in the classroom" folks around too. Who seem totally unaware of the vile abuses thatengendered and seem to think it's the answer to all problems. As if most teachers these days don't manage just fine - to their infinite and under-paid credit - without beating children in the classroom. And this is a progressive! board - goddess knows what it's like on conservative ones.

There seem to be a fair number also with an appalling lack of even the most basic knowlege of child development.

[LostinVA]

61. I saw the parents interviewed on TV

They didn't act that way at all. They were obviously blue collar people who were at work when this happened. They didn't go the "precious darling" route, and they seemed too poor to have went the "never say no
route.

[tblue]

11. So corporal punishment is illegal but handcuffing and booking kindergartners is cool

And then there's the case of Shaquanda Cotton, a 15-year-old black girl sent to a high-security juvenile detention center for the 'felony' of shoving a hall monitor at her school, and whose sentence was extended for possession of contraband: an extra pair of socks and a plastic foam cup.


Three months before Cotton, who had no prior criminal record, was sentenced by Paris Judge Chuck Superville in March, 2006, to up to seven years in youth prison for the shoving incident, Superville sentenced a 14-year-old white girl convicted of the more serious crime of arson to probation. Later, when the white teenager violated her probation, Superville gave her yet another chance and declined to send her to prison. Only when the youth violated her probation a second time did the judge order her locked up.
/snip

Shaquanda had had some behavioral problems, but no arrests on her record. And the 58-year-old teacher's aide who reported being shoved wasn't seriously injured. But Shaquanda was convicted of assaulting a public servant and sentenced to TYC with an indeterminate sentence: up to seven years.
/snip

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/467810...
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texass...

[madfloridian]

13. Or Martin Lee Anderson, age 14, beaten to death by boot camp guard.

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/nation/1690...

I read about the TX girl being punished so severely for shoving.

How did all this come about? How did we get here?

[Jcrowley]

16. "They've" always been there

[ProudDad]

93. I heard that DA on the radio

"School officials, the Paris district attorney and the judge have all strongly denied that race played a role in the prosecution and sentencing of Cotton. But her case has coincided with an ongoing investigation of the Paris school district by the U.S. Department of Education, which is examining allegations that the district systemically discriminates against black students by disciplining them more frequently and more harshly than whites."

Sheriff Jim Clark and Lester Maddox would be proud of that DA... I thought I had fallen into a time warp back to Jim Crow Georgia...

Not to mention the 15 year old WHITE girl who was tried for arson by that same judge and sent home.

"Her sentence was "up to 7 years" because Texas Youth Commission has jurisdiction over any juvenile in its custody until their 21st birthday. A 14-year-old white girl was sentenced to probation for burning down her family's home three months before she was sentenced, despite prosecutors pushing for TYC for the arsonist."

[kath]

12. Gee, they're both black! What a surprise!

[madfloridian]

27. Unfortunately....

I fear you might be right to some degree. Note the other two mentioned in this thread. I hate to think that, but I can't dismiss it.

[jgraz]

76. To some degree?? Imagine that same scene with a white girl and a black cop

How many Floridians would be calling for that cop's head right now.

[LostinVA]

62. I honestly believe that is a big part of it

[tblue]

63. Indisputably

[madfloridian]

23. This appears to be a mug shot of Desre.

From Fox 13, Tampa Bay.

Kindergartner jailed



Will that be just a juvenile record or will it follow her through life?

[tblue]

64. Give me a frickin break. Land of the 'free'????

[Tsiyu]

28. Thank you for this post

Some folks need to read a good book on child development. Piaget, maybe?


If you think a five-year-old can get uppity over homework or classroom teasing, try starting an IV in one.

Try giving a breathing treatment - covering the child's face with a mask - to a five-year-old already agitated by a cocktail of meds.

In the five years I spent working in a kids' hospital, we never had to call the cops on a child. We stayed calm, but handled the child firmly and restrained them if necessary but not via handcuffs. We never had to Taser a kid, have one arrested, nor was any health care worker ever accused of physically harming a child.

If you cannot understand children, cannot effectively divert out-of-control children, and you even imagine that a five-year-old has the mental capacity to engage in felonious behavior, please stay away from children.

[madfloridian]

29. If you cultivate, train, and pay good teachers, treat them with respect...

then you get good teachers who don't have to call the police on young children.

I posted above that I quit taking interns from nearby universities before I retired. They were unable to handle children, not well educated, and I was not going to waste my time.

The education dept professor came to my class to tell me that I and others who were refusing to take interns were hurting their program.

I told him sorry, it was not his fault, but they had very poor quality coming through. I used to get interns who were leaders on campus, very bright, and capable. Near the end I was getting very low quality.

Florida quit giving teachers incentives. They treated teachers badly. No wonder.

[roguevalley]

32. There are no supports for teachers anymore. You have a classroom

with kids in it that don't belong there. You spend 85% of your time dealing with two kids and the rest of the class get the leftovers. They don't put behavioral problems into small controlled equipped situations anymore like they used to. Now you have to deal with them because no one wants to 'label' kids nor do they want to spend the money necessary to help them. I can't tell you how many hard case kids I got because I 'could deal with them' and how many times I taught school never turning my back on certain kids.

[madfloridian]

33. I taught at one of the worst schools in town my last few years.

It was not easy. I had two classes that were almost unbearable. But I never even thought about calling the police on them.

[roguevalley]

36. I'm glad for you. Its truly hard. I do recall in the news lately two cases of kids trying

to kill their teachers. Some of these kids are deadly.

[madfloridian]

37. I doubt a 5 or 6 year old would try to kill a teacher.

I really doubt it.

[mopinko]

50. we had a case in chicago

and i don't remember the details exactly, but the kids were not that old, grade school kids, iirc, 9 and 10. they waited for their teacher in the parking lot, and bashed her head in with hammers. she lived, sort of.
it ain't necessarily bean bag out there. people who think all you need is a bowl of ice cream are lucky to be living the life they are living.

[madfloridian]

55. That is a totally unfair post. You mischaracterize what I am saying.

It is easy to do that. And it is not playing fair.

[sandnsea]

58. "I don't remember the details exactly"

Yeah I bet you don't. There's a big difference between 5 and 10, and 10 and 13 or 15 as well. But if it feeds your sick hatred of society to believe there are babies bashing people in the head with hammers, you're welcome to it.

[mopinko]

60. oh please.

i am not talking about hating society. i am talking about the dilemma of more and more mentally ill kids with no system to handle them. been there. know my way around.

[sandnsea]

65. Implement a behavioral plan

And make sure the teacher is both trained for it and believes in it. There is no place for arresting mentally ill kids, none at all. If the police need to be called, the appropriate place to take a mentally ill child is the hospital. The very fact that none of those educators get that is evidence to me that none of them actually belong in a classroom. These are things that every adult used to just know, it was plain old common sense. I am honestly baffled at people who are flummoxed by 5 year olds. And yes, I've worked at Head Start, day cares, pre-schools and with a host of children's after school activities. This hysteria is ridiculous. The empathy should be with the children and it clearly isn't, at least not in those classrooms in Florida.

[roguevalley]

67. this isn't about hating society. this is about expecting teachers to

deal with dangerous, psychotic kids in the classroom without support or help. this girl needs to be in a classroom with three other kids and the experts to teach her how to behave in society. in a few years she will be dangerous as hell if she doesn't have an intervention. You have NO IDEA what its like to have drug kids in your room, confronting you and knowing your pussy principal will do NOTHING about it to help you but will stick you in the back. I had a kid who for the second year threatened to kill a boy in my room and she did nothing. She said it was my problem. She wouldn't call the police like I told her to. She just said basically, fuck off. What now? He was terrified. I wanted to kick everyone to death with my shoes, I was so frustrated.

[ProudDad]

96. What is your district

doing about this?

If nothing, why aren't the teachers down at the school board with torches and pitchforks screaming bloody murder?

[roguevalley]

100. our district is like any other, a fucked up beaurocracy that is

self sustaining in its inanity. You sound like people haven't tried, aren't trying or will never try here. Generations of teachers have fallen on their swords trying to fix things. The assumption that no one is doing anything about the shit storm that is public education slays me. There is no one who knows better or tries harder than teachers. I have seen people practically set themselves on fire, myself included and it doesn't matter. Parents of kids here VIDEOTAPE their IEP meetings to ensure that their kids are taken care of. LAWYERS get involved. That is reality. And it isn't just my district. Look around. It will take more than the people directly involved. Parents pegged as "crazy" and teachers pegged as "troublemakers" aren't enough. It takes everyone. Talks cheap. People need to do it en masse. But my experience says they won't. They have other things to do. Until some parents love their kids half as much as some of their teachers do and are willing to 'make people mad at me (them)' nothing will change.

[ProudDad]

101. Are your teachers in a Union?

If not, why not?

If so, why not get the union involved?

I can't believe that there's no possibility of direct action. Teach to rule? Walkout?

I DO understand your fatigue. It may seem an impossible task. And it will be until a critical mass of resistance is attained.

[roguevalley]

102. we are. I was president and secretary of my union local and

state secretary for the union and member of the state labor council. Until parents join teachers in numbers that can't be ignored, then nothing will change. the lone parent or two are 'troublemakers' and so are teachers. Until parents group together in sizeable numbers, nada. Up here, to protest the school and 'send a message', they usually vote down school bonds.

[ProudDad]

119. That sounds like the frustration

we're all dealing with in the class war.

Until the working class finds out we're IN a class war and starts joining together to fight back, we'll continue to get screwed.

My best to you.

[sandnsea]

38. When they were in controlled rooms

There was staff that had a plan in place to deal with them. I recognize it is not your responsibility, but the methods are in place. If teachers need 'emergency psychotic student' training, then we, the community, need to know. I understand it's hard and tiring and endless, but that really is the only solution. Keep talking to the community leaders and sooner or later, they will listen.

[roguevalley]

68. they don't need this training. these kids need to be removed.

we aren't equipped to give 85-90% of our time to these kids. what about the other 30 kids? they don't get anything but what is left over. the methods are bunk when you have seven subjects to teach every day for kids that vary in ability level from pre-school to high school. put them where there are people to give them the training they need. we have too much to do. Its more than tiring to ask a classroom teacher to do this. Its criminal.

[sandnsea]

72. But you are

So there you go. Do you have a union? Do you have a school board? Do you have a PTA? Do you have a city council? Do you have an ecumenical group of ministers? Do you have a chamber of commerce?

You need something to change, go tell the people who can make it happen. In the meantime, learn how to handle difficult kids, have a back-up plan if they get unruly, and implement it. Honestly. I'm not going to feel sorry for any of you. I've been through this on a variety of levels and there are always solutions. Jail isn't one of them.

[mopinko]

73. i will give you that point- she should have gone to the hospital.

on that, you are 100% correct.
but i will tell you the story from my side of the fence- of a parent of a mentally ill kid. i will tell you that 99% of the time, a kid will not get special needs addressed without a parent that fights for them. and even then, it is a tough process. it takes time, it takes heart, it takes know how, it takes patience, and it takes persistence. it takes the ability to educate yourself, to traverse the bureaucratic maze. half the parents out there do not have what it takes. for a thousand reasons. including the fact that raising a kid with that level of problems WILL crush you.
teachers cannot do this alone. they just can't.
and people on this thread bashing these mothers- just shame on them. i hope you never know what it is like.

[sandnsea]

75. "a variety of levels"

means a variety of levels. I know exactly what it's like.

I did not say teachers should do this alone. I listed all the people you need to go talk to. You're in Alaska right? You ought to be able to build a coalition if your district isn't adequately addressing special needs kids. It affects NCLB scores too, doesn't it? My local district isn't as good as it should be either. A friend of ours is the parent of an autistic child and has been fighting for better education for him for years. She's very very wealthy too, so I don't even know what would happen with someone who had no sense of esteem to stand up to authorities.

There are so many bad things about conservatism, but it seems to me one of the worst is the reliance on punitiveness. No matter what the problem, a cop or a gun is the answer. It's just crazy.

[mopinko]

77. i'm in chicago

and i have worked very hard to reach out to the parent community at my kid's school. it is a good one. but i tell you, people are beaten. life is hard. they don't have time. we have fun events, feed people and we give things away, and we get maybe 100 parents in a school with 1500 kids. there are about 5 people on the pta. 6 on the local school council. say the word meeting, and the room empties.
you are right, of course. we could make this world a completely different place in a generation by making sure that every pregnant woman and every child had all the food and medical care she needed. period. just that. we would raise up a peaceful generation. for less than we spend on just the death squads that we train and equip. it is a fucked up world we live in.

[sandnsea]

78. big city - small town

I wouldn't even know where to begin in some districts in a big city. Small towns and cities tend to be more responsive, which is I think the situation RogueValley is in. Sometimes it's just a matter of getting through to the right board member or councilman. They don't know until a teacher or parents tells them. I would think a large city would have a culture receptive to necessary programs for all sorts of students, regardless of parental or community input. The little town I used to live in had aides for the kids with behavioral problems. They would stay with them and help them implement study and social skills, work with the teacher and classmates; and then gradually turn the child over to the classroom. Worked with some pretty challenging kids. The solutions are out there, we just need to know what they are and have the will to demand they be implemented everywhere.

[mopinko]

104. oh, the programs are there

they are just full. local school has 4 full time ld aids. it just needs 10. each of the 5 regions has a therapeutic day school. the one here, where one of my kids went, can handle about 20 kids.
once in a while, a principal will have a kid that is a real threat to the other kids, and they will fight for the placement. but that is pretty much it. if your kid is not dangerous, you will have to do it yourself.

[sandnsea]

112. So the kids that are a threat

have alternative solutions. That's what you said there in your post. That's what the OP and thread is about. Appropriate solutions for troubled kids. Jail isn't it.

Yes parents have to advocate for their kids. But that's true of any quirk a child has. Mine had hand-writing difficulties. It was just hard for him. One school understood that and just reduced rote writing assignments, like spelling words. The next one refused to get it and was assigning him the old write each word ten times, which was a mess because he'd get the letters mixed up and write it wrong ten times in a row. It was awful. That school never did get it, we moved. So all parents have to advocate, from really difficult disabilities to mild quirks.

Funny thing, when we do, then we're told we're pampering little Janie.

[mopinko]

113. pampering- a big fat YUP to that.

i bet your kid was a boy. i have one of those kids, too. never did nail it down, or get him help. "he's so smart. he could do it if he wanted" "you are a big hearted loving mom, but you are giving him too much love. he needs a kick in the butt." he is 16, and a drop out. going to work with an adopted "uncle" in remodeling for a while. i think it will do him a world of good to get off his butt and do something with his hands.
but you would think that every big school would have a plan for these kids. i wish i had a nickle for every mom who had a kid just like this.

[roguevalley]

97. its hell with mentally ill kids. that is why I have always stuck my

damned neck in the noose to help some mom. you have to kill yourself with a school district to get help. It shouldn't be that way but it is. learn the special ed rules and make them adhere to it. if they don't then go to a special ed advocate and sue them to death. it is the only way if they don't do their job. the admins are awful. make them do their job. the teachers already are. good luck with your baby. you have all my sympathy and support.

[mopinko]

105. luckily, i live in a big city.

everything is there, you just have to beat your way in. one of the countries biggest education law firms is also here, and they helped us out with a lot of advice at a free consulation. it would have cost $5k just to retain them. but they gave us what we needed to do it ourselves.
said kid is now in college, and doing great. one more reason i love the city.

[roguevalley]

109. I am so glad to hear it. Its what I hope for every kid I have, that they

go on and have the life they want. You are fortunate to have the resources. Here in the rural part of the world, it is less so. People need to commit the special education laws and rules to memory and make schools do what they are supposed to do. Congratulations for you and your child.

[roguevalley]

91. Who cares what you feel about us. None of us who do this day in

and day out for years and years are asking for your pity. For godsake. No one cares about anything more than a solution than us. We have unions, we have made it damned clear. No one wants to put the money into this. Do you honestly think we haven't tried?

Don't tell me how to handle tough kids. I have for 27 years. I'm damned good at it. Back up plan? What back up plan? The admins don't give a damn, the building principals don't care in my years of teaching. They just want you to keep it in room. I find it fascinating that there is so much attention given to the kids that aren't supposed to be there. What about the thousands of kids who sit in classrooms watching their valuable learning time being wasted because a teacher is dealing with kids who don't belong there. I am at this point in my life trending to caring more about their missed opportunities.

Teachers are dealing, barely sometimes, with the shit from society that no one wants to pay for or even talk about. Drug babies that have learning and behavioral problems, parents that hate each other, parents that aren't there. You name it. Teachers working 12-15 hour days already have enough. And I would say, it isn't our damned place to always be the ones running into the streets with our hair on fire. I wish I had a nickel for everytime some concerned person said to me, "I'm right behind you." And they never, ever are.

Most of us carry scars from trying. We do our jobs and we sound the alarm. We do all we can every day and we protect kids and help them with little to no support. Society isn't listening. So don't pity me or anyone of us. We don't need it or want it. You will find out later on in society just how much people's vaunted concern for education is more lip service than reality. And the kids? They will be the ones with the tough roads. And it won't be because of me or my colleagues. We have ALWAYS tried.

"You need something to change."

No kidding. I've tried for 27 years. Now someone else can. I've seen education change from people qualified to taking on these kids to having five of them dumped in my room every year. We can't change it. Society has to. But I won't hold my breath. We have told the people. They don't give a damn. ITs all about money, isn't it.

[sandnsea]

114. What a crock

You act as if nobody else has ever dealt with principals and school districts. Lemme see, 13 school districts in 5 states. Four kids. Oldest was in special programs from the age of 3. Step-son was both LD and mentally ill. Other two were more on the gifted scale. You really don't have anything to tell me about school. I have one story about a truly scary violent kid at a school, in all those years. I have many about teachers throwing desks and books across the room, fucking in the boiler room, busted for growing pot, etc etc.

Parents care about schools. Teachers aren't saints. Part of the problem is that teachers need to get down off the pedastals they put themselves on, and start respecting parents and the community more.

If you think your school is bound to stay the hell-hole that you describe, it probably will.

[ProudDad]

98. Are you suggesting euthenasia?

I know you aren't but that is the end point for this sort of statement.

"these kids need to be removed."

And to where would you remove them? Who will pay for their removal? Who will say which get removed and which stay?

How much you want to bet race played a part in this? How much you want to bet race would play a part in who gets removed?

[madfloridian]

30. You can do a lot with kindness.

I called parents every night, usually two a night. I talked with them about the day and what we needed to work on. I included them in planning. It took about 30 minutes of my evening.

Once I had to refer parents to child care for abuse. They were favorites and it broke my heart. They called me at home very angry, and I said let's talk. I met them at school with a fellow teacher when they got off work.

We worked things through. The mother later came to my class, knocked on my door, and gave me a hug. She said it had been the proper phone call to make, and that she had sought help. She said thanks for caring.

I think that a teacher who truly cares about children can work through a lot of things with them. There are so many tactics, so many ways to get kids working with you.

There is a difference between a small child having a temper tantrum, and a high school tough guy getting out of control. A good teacher who cares should be able to tell the difference.

[Nevernose]

81. Have you tried being NICE?

I agree with you SO much. When other teachers some to me and complain about Satan's Own, I often reply with, "Well, have you tried being nice?"

I deal with those kids all the time. I teach remedial classes at a bad high school, and have the reputation (among many of the sp.ed dept) as being someone that teaches a class that a kid can comfortably be mainstreamed in. My REGULAR ed kids are hooligans with learning disabilities! (Of course, I can call them hooligans. If you try, I'll kick your ass. They may be hooligans, but they're by-god MY hooligans ).



Have you tried finding a solution rather than finding another irritant? Because there will always be things that piss you off. It takes someone who really cares to find a solution.

And, to be fair, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree (insert Barbara Bush joke here). The parents of these children are rarely better. Not always, of course, because bad behavior and low expectations are learned behaviors, generally speaking. But enough to make it a difficult environment.

I start by mailing letters home, enclosing a digital picture of their child, hard at work, that I developed for 12 cents at Wal-Mart. It's with a card that I got for 5 cents in a pack of twenty at the dollar store. I include a handwritten comment, and include something personal about each child. Phone calls and parent conferences go pretty well after that. If I need to, I go to a kid's home. 150 of them don't cost much money or time, in the long run, considering the effect it has on one's own sanity.

I have provided, in the past:
Drug/Alcohol counseling for children and/or adults.
Free/Low-Cost daycare referrals.
Diapers.
Food.
Occasionally cash for the bus or for school food (I've never had a kid who hasn't paid me back, but probably just because I'm a neurotic asshole).
Rides to/from school (against the rules, by the way, but screw 'em).
Names of doctors and dentists who take the uninsured.
Referrals to free clinics.
English classes for the parents.
School supplies.
Police protection for those being bullied.
A million other things.

But the thing that works best? The thing that works far better than all other interventions or management plans or services?

Just being nice. Letting them know that you're here for them, because you care. Telling them about your own life, and being genuinely interested in their's.

It's amazing what a smile and a hug can accomplish.

(Of course, I'd still be careful of whom I hugged, and certainly would never hug a student in private, but still... )

[madfloridian]

82. Love your post....

Being nice to those who are not used to having much niceness in their lives works well.

I had 4th and 6th graders, when I taught those grades who would come up to me on the sidewalk saying where's our hug? One of the toughest kids would walk beside me everywhere with his hand on my shoulder. He was one I remember so well, a class clown, a neighborhood terror, but he was a good kid if he trusted a teacher. We gave him responsibilities and notes home with a smiley sticker.

One day one of the asst principals came by after school to my classroom. There were 4 former students back from middle school who had come to visit. He said well you guys are not really supposed to be on campus, they said please she will walk us to the street, and he said ok. He asked if he could visit, and they said yes. He told me later he was amazed at the levels of conversations we had on many subjects.

I miss times like that, but Jeb's new school rules were taking their toll when I retired.

You can NOT fool kids. They know honest and sincere when they see it, and they know which teachers care about them.

It was tough teaching there, but it had it's rewards.

[Nevernose]

84. Teaching is the only job I've ever LOVED

I wake up every morning, grateful to god that I get the chance to go teach.

Of course, I come home every day thankful that it's over, but I still come back every day.

And I'm an atheist .

To be fair, it may be pure egomania: I know that in what I do, every single day I make a difference in someone's life. Not many people can say that. "You're the first person to tell me that I was good enough for college" is what I hear, or, only slightly more often, "You're one of the few teachers I ever liked."

To quote that Taylor Mali poem: "I make a G**damned difference, what about you?"

Eventually, I know, I'll burn out. We talk a lot about a 30% student dropout rate, but rarely is any mainstream mention given to the fact that there's an 80% teacher dropout rate within the first seven years.

[Forkboy]

41. This thread deserves more the two recs it has.

I could only do one

[madfloridian]

42. Thanks, I was surprised arresting 5 year olds was controversial.

One never knows, does one? I know it is mostly a few, but I was surprised how many excuse it.

[Forkboy]

43. There will always be a few.

Post a thread about yarn and a few people will pop in to tell you how stupid the yarn was to be in a ball in the first place.

[madfloridian]

45. Notice the difference in the two articles about bringing charges...

In the 2005 situation...here was the statement.

After placing the child in the back of a police cruiser, police released her to her mother when prosecutors informed them they wouldn't bring charges against a 5-year-old.

In the 2007 situation, just two short years later..here was the statement.

...."The kindergartner was booked in the Highland County jail and was charged with a felony and two misdemeanors.

Big difference. No argument in 2007. Just put her in jail and prosecute.

I am still in shock over this happening.

[Cha]

46. That's right.. There's a bunch of

white collar thugs in the white house who need to be frog marched to the Hague, no less, and our law enforcement are getting down with "handcuffing" 5 and 6 year olds!! Poor little things.

It's the officers' chiefs who should be taking "action" against them as well. What happened to common freakin' sense?

[MLFerrell]

47. AGAIN?!

Makes me glad I moved out of Florida when I did.

Christ, madfloridian, I'm amazed that the "lock-'em-up-and-throw-away-the-key" crowd hasn't shown up yet.

[madfloridian]

51. Read the thread....they have.

Just not as much as the other thread. This one has been better.

[Madspirit]

53. K&R...and...

You know how I feel about it. Five and six year olds are tiny children just a few years post-toddler. Anyone who thinks clapping small children in irons is a sick and sadistic individual.
Lee

[Solly Mack]

54. Years ago, one of my 5 year old students tried to stab me

Just grabbed the "big" scissors off my desk and lunged. I dodged - quickly. Got the scissors, carried her to the office in a legal secure hold meant to prevent harm to the child.

I didn't call the police. Talked with her parents and never had that problem again.

This child gave me other problems - some nearly as bad - but it never once occurred me to call the police.


I've been slapped, bitten, spit on and kicked. I've had kids scratch my arms and legs and pull my hair. I've had chairs thrown at me as well as other assorted objects.

And it never - not once - occurred to me to call the police on a child.

They were still learning to control their anger. Impulse control was still very much an issue...and it doesn't miraculous all just go away at age 6 either.

I've dealt with horrible parents who refused to see that little Suzy Q and Junior were behaving badly. I've been threatened with lawsuits and even physical violence by a parent.

But still...call the police on a child for acting out? Nope. Not once.

I protected my students - from themselves and each other when needed. That included dealing with their anger in a way conducive to their well being. Calling the police on a child that young for acting out is not conducive to their well being. It sends the wrong message.


Yeah - I worried about being sued for something I didn't do - it happens. But I never allowed that worry to prevent me from doing my job.

I'm not judging anyone on this board - so any educators taking offense with my comments, please don't.

I'd have handled it differently is all.

Oh, and to add - I worked in a very rough neighborhood. High crime, lots of poverty, and several gangs. Once had a student tell me he was going to get his big brother to shoot me with his gun because I put him in time-out. His older brother was a gang member and I knew this fact. I still didn't call the police.

[Joanne98]

57. I went to school, as a child, for two years in Japan....

Japanese don't spank their children until they're 7 yrs old...

They have well behaved children.

[Madspirit]

80. Never Spank Children

You should never spank/hit children. EVER. Go see what The American Medical Association, The American Psychological Association, The American Psychiatric Association, The American Pediatric Association, etc. says.
For a species that claims it loves it's children it's rather ironic that you can do to someone who barely comes up to your knees, what would get assault charges filed against you if you did it to another adult.
We rape kids, we put cigarettes out on kids, we toss kids around the room, we beat them, we deride them, we dismiss them, we humiliate them, we send THEM off to fight the wars, we kill them. That's how we treat kids.
If it's not OK to hit another adult, how could it POSSIBLY be OK to hit a child?!
Lee

[Bronyraurus]

88. Ha!

"We rape kids, we put cigarettes out on kids, we toss kids around the room, we beat them, we deride them, we dismiss them, we humiliate them, we send THEM off to fight the wars, we kill them. That's how we treat kids."

I don't know what your household is like, but I don't do any of that!

[Madspirit]

94. "We" as our species

...but you knew that Smart One.

John Lennon said women are the "n" word of the world. He was wrong. Children are.
Lee

[Bronyraurus]

99. I'm not sure if kids endure anything

that adults don't also endure. Which means that humans are the "n" words of the world.

But you sympathize with kids more because they're cuter and more innocent than adults, so you magnify their suffering.

And I doubt that minor spanking has any lasting negative effects on anyone. I got swatted on the butt about five times when I was a kid, no big deal.

[ProudDad]

103. Don't be too sure

[Madspirit]

106. Don't be inane

"Cuter"? What an asinine thing to say. I work with abuse survivors. I also see the stats. Go to the police stats. Go to the government stats. Take psychology 101. See how many children die at the hands of adults, usually their own parents. This IS my field.

Don't address me any more. It will be useless because I put the silly, the thoughtless, the inane, the stupid, the fascist, the closet Republicans, etc. on "Ignore".

I deal with abuse survivors every day. I don't have to deal with abusers.
Lee

[Bronyraurus]

111. This fascist doesn't recognize the ignore function.

Take that!

[Madspirit]

108. Here Smart-One

Okay Newbie...Tell me how cute this is:


1,500 children die every year from child abuse and neglect. That is just over 4 fatalities every day.
There are nearly 3 million reports of child abuse made annually
In 2003, there were 906,000 child abuse convictions
The rate of child abuse is estimated to be 3 times greater than is reported.
The rate of victimization is 12.3 children per 1,000 children
Children ages 0-3 are the most likely to experience abuse. They are victimized at a rate of 16.4 per 1,000
79% of the children killed are younger than 4.

These statistics are from the Administration for Children & Families of the US Department of Health & Human Services “Child Maltreatment Report 2003”

[Bronyraurus]

110. Who is defending child abuse?

The only thing I was defending is the rarest smack on the ass.

Why would you even post that information, as if anyone is going to argue that that doesn't happen, or that it isn't horrible?

[Joanne98]

56. Send these pictures out to the world the US wants to POLICE!

[bread_and_roses]

71. The malevolence shown toward children and parents in this society

continues to grow ever more shocking. Any society that doesn't care for and protect its' youngest children is sick, sick, sick.

[mopinko]

74. you got that. feed the children,

end war.

[BlooInBloo]

79. When they're black.

[Initech]

83. Unfuckingbelievable.

This country really infuriates me sometimes. They handcuff five year old kids for throwing temper tantrums, yet hardly anybody in Congress has the balls to impeach W and Cheney.

[Done]

115. Wheeewww! I can sleep safe tonight nt

[madfloridian]

120. Could someone with a subscription to Harpers tell me if it is the same girl?

Here's the description from Google search.

"Education (Harpers.org)Mar 18, Police in Florida arrested a five-year-old girl at her kindergarten, binding her hands with plastic ties and placing handcuffs around her ankles. ...
www.harpers.org/Education.html - 246k - Cached - Similar pages"

Here's the direct link that says you have to be a member.

http://www.harpers.org/subjects/Education