Charter Schools vs Public Schools

[Pryderi]

Does anyone know if charter schools have been proven to be more effective/better at educating children than public schools?

[JonLP24]

1. I think it depends on where

Like Baltimore for example the graduation rate hovers around only 50%.

[Pryderi]

3. Are charter schools in Baltimore? Would charter schools in Baltimore raise those rates?

[JonLP24]

11. Not sure

I was giving you the rates of public schools. My point is some public schools are probaly outstanding while others are substandard.

[madinmaryland]

8. So you are from Baltimore and know what goes on there?

:wtf:

[JonLP24]

12. I do know in 2003 they were in severe fiscal crisis

Of about $54-$64 million and they have been severly underfunded. I'm aware of changes were made such as extensive layoffs of teachers and staff took place and new controls were enacted to ensure that spending was more closely monitored. Also the current mayor Sheila Dixon did something no mayor of Baltimore did in 30 years and that was reduce the murder rate and from what I last read she was under investigation for gifts or something to that effect.

[Xipe Totec]

2. Well, they're probably less likely to strip search 13 year olds for Ibuprofen n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

4. If they do, they are more likely to hire private security, like Blackwater to do it. n/t

[Xipe Totec]

5. Why, when there's 11 vacancies at Gitmo? n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

14. Hey, follow the chain of custody. First Blackwater, then Gitmo. n/t

[madinmaryland]

6. Well, so far this thread is going nowhere. Our daughter went to a charter

school in Bridgeport, CT for a year (we moved to MD due to a job change), and it was a really good school. Designed to stimulate the children.

[Lyric]

7. Charter schools ARE public schools.

And as for their effectiveness, it depends entirely upon the individual school and what its policies are. If the kids all get in via a completely random lottery system rather than through an application/acceptance system, then the data might actually MEAN something. If not, then comparative data is useless; ordinary public schools don't get to choose their students via application, so it's unfair to compare them.

[Catshrink]

9. Here most charter schools are far from effective.

There are a few that are very very good. But far more don't meet standards, have closed due to bad financial management, and are disriminatory in selecting their students. Charter schools have a way of turning special needs kids away because they don't have the resources.

Charter schools don't require teachers to be certified so there is no standard there. I'm not saying state certification guarantees a quality teacher -- there are certainly bad ones out there -- but it does show a certain discipline in attaining that piece of paper and intelligence to be able to pass the licensing exams. (Would you go to a doctor who didn't have a medical license? A lawyer who didn't belong to the bar? An accountant who hadn't passed the CPA exam?)

Charters get money from the state that is siphoned off from public education funds. The teachers get their salaries but charter schools don't pay into the state retirement system. Teachers have no protection in their jobs so if there is a loud, disgruntled parent and a weak administrator, that teacher gets canned, maybe for enforcing a deadline.

Charter schools are an attempt by big business to get its hands into a great pool of government money. Charter schools that are run by educational entities generally fare better than those run by businesses for profit.

[elleng]

13. This is in your state, right?

Every state/jurisdiction differs.

[ContinentalOp]

17. I don't know much about charter schools, but a few points...

"are disriminatory in selecting their students."

Our local charter school is a public school that allows anyone in the area to attend.

"Charter schools don't require teachers to be certified"

That's not the case in CA. "Since January 1, 1999, all teachers in charter schools are required to hold either a teaching credential or other document equivalent to that which a teacher in other public schools would be required to hold issued by the Commission on Teacher Credentialing."
http://www.ctc.ca.gov/employers/charter-schools.html

"Charters get money from the state that is siphoned off from public education funds."

Not really. As I said, in our area, the charter school is the only public school. It's not taking funds away from any other public school. The situation may be different though in areas where there are charter schools directly in competition with other neighborhood schools.


"The teachers get their salaries but charter schools don't pay into the state retirement system. Teachers have no protection in their jobs so if there is a loud, disgruntled parent and a weak administrator, that teacher gets canned, maybe for enforcing a deadline."

If true, that is indeed bad. I'm not sure if our local charter school teachers are union members or not. I'll have to look into that.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. Any more generalizations stuck in your craw?

The charter school definition and requirements vary from state to state. Their results vary from school to school. There is really not a lot of apples to apples data out there. General trend seems to be no worse than public schools, and in many areas, somewhat better. Many of them are specialized or flavored in one way or another (arts, language immersion, etc)

Some states require teacher certification, others do not. Some pay into the state retirement system, others do not. It varies from state to state and school to school.

Charters get public funds since they are public schools. However, they get to take different approaches to things and can control who enrolls in most states. They are also very sensitive politically. Detractors say they get away with things that should not be allowed. Supporters say that they get scrutinized to a level unseen in the regular public schools. Much of it depends on the laws of the state involved. Certification, evaluation, and resources are always a fight and bring out the worst in both sides who both claim they are doing it "for the children"

At a macro level I tend to think charter schools do better that regular public schools due to the implicit parental screening. If a parent takes the time to seek out a charter school for their children, they tend to be more concerned/involved in their child's education, which is one of the prime determinants of educational success. That in turn leads to better results for that school and lower results from the school that child would have otherwise attended. I can't back my conclusion with numbers, but I think it is pretty self evident.

[Catshrink]

21. Or yours?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. I am not the one spreading broad inaccurate slams...

[Catshrink]

23. Everything I said is based on my experience

where I live. Sheesh.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. Then state your very limited perview. I was not the only one who called you on that

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. As I understand it,

people must apply to go to a charter school. Right away that means that either the parents or the students must be motivated to want what they perceive to be a better education. So right away you are comparing apples to oranges. I've taught in public and private schools, and the difference in parental interest/involvement with their kids is marked. According to one website I found (which is pro-charter schools), fewer of them (6.5%) are failing than public schools (11%). But then I don't know that those charter schools were required to take in anyone who walked through the door, including kids whose parents were druggies, abusive, and who could care less about their kids.

Anyway, you can read for yourself here:

http://www.edreform.com/index.cfm?fuseAction=document&documentID=886

[ContinentalOp]

16. Not always.

Our local charter school is the only school in the area, and you don't need to apply. Well, you do have to fill out some forms and provide proof of residence, vaccinations, etc. but I'm assuming that's standard stuff.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. I only know about charter schools in Ft. Worth

to get in, you had to apply and be a member of a minority.

I'm curious, though--why is there only a charter school in your area? What happened to the public school?

[ContinentalOp]

20. It's now a charter school. I'm not sure the history behind it.

I'm guessing that ultimately it would have been shut down and kids would have been bussed well out of the area. I don't know but I'm curious to research it now.

[ContinentalOp]

15. Charter schools are public schools. There are two different kinds of charters schools...

as far as I remember. I suppose it varies from state to state, but you don't have to apply to get in, they are open to everyone who lives in the area, the same as a public school, and anyone from outside the area gets to apply to a lottery. Our local public elementary school is a charter school in a peripheral area of a giant district. I think converting to a charter school was a way to get some local control and oversight of a school that would have been completely lost and overlooked (and most likely shut down) as a part of the larger system.

[mopinko]

24. your question is too broad to have a valid answer

"charter schools" could mean anything. here, a lot of them are specialty schools. like schools for kids who need special services, or kids having a hard time. others have special emphasis like language or math and science. and others are just neighborhood schools in areas with hard to serve communities.
no more answerable than "are public schools any good?" obviously many are and many aren't.

[robdogbucky]

26. They do seem to be more prone to fraud and abuse

than anything I have ever heard of in the traditional public schools though:

State educators are seeking criminal charges against the executives of a charter school operation after an audit found they had misused at least $25.6 million in public education money, including $2.6 million for personal expenses.
The audit found that executives of the now-closed California Charter Academy used public funds to pay for personal watercrafts, travel, health spa visits, Disney-related merchandise and more. Two employees even paid their income taxes with $42,000 in school funds.

"The magnitude of waste of precious education funds outlined in this audit is appalling," state schools Superintendent Jack O'Connell said Thursday as he released an audit of the charter.
In an effort to recover the misspent funds, O'Connell directed the Education Department's lawyers to file a multimillion-dollar bankruptcy claim against the school and its management company, the Educational Administrative Services Corp.
O'Connell sent the 107-page audit to state Attorney General Bill Lockyer and local prosecutors in San Bernardino and Orange counties, where the school had headquarters, so that they could pursue charges.

From 1999 until it went out of business last year, the California Charter Academy was the state's largest charter school operation, with more than 4,557 students in kindergarten through 12th grade, and more than 7,000 adults enrolled.
Its founder and chief executive, Steven Cox, formed the for-profit management company to run the vast network of satellite campuses across the state, including several in the Bay Area. Three Southern California school districts authorized four separate charter contracts with the company, each earning percentages of the state funding but providing little fiscal or academic oversight.

http://brockton.massteacher.org/charter_schools/california_csfraud.html


Charter School Owners Found Guilty of Fraud
Posted on: Tuesday, 4 October 2005, 15:00 CDT
By Beth Silver, Pioneer Press, St. Paul, Minn.

Oct. 4--A federal grand jury Monday convicted the onetime owners of a former St. Paul charter school on charges they defrauded the school to pay for vacations, luxury cars and private homes.

After a three-week trial and nine hours of deliberation, the jury convicted William and Shirley Pierce of Minneapolis on all 13 counts, including conspiracy, filing false tax returns, and mail and wire fraud.

According to evidence presented at the trial in Minneapolis, the Pierces diverted money from the now-defunct Right Step Academy, using it for Caribbean cruises, clothes, and furniture. The Pierces, both 46, also used academy funds to buy charter schools in North Carolina and Arizona, and to buy houses in both states, prosecutors said.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/education/260395/charter_school_owners_found_guilty_of_fraud/



Date: Friday, March 1 2002
Law enforcement officials in California have raided an Islamic charter school suspected of having ties to a terrorist organization and carted off 60 computers and 100 boxes of documents.

The GateWay Academy, a so-called "public charter school," was shut down in January and is the focus of an ongoing investigation. State officials said they are looking into allegations of fraud and financial wrongdoing at the school, but anonymous sources told The Washington Times there may be more to the matter.

According to the newspaper, the school is suspected of being tied to a militant U.S.-based black Muslim group called the Muslims of America. That group is in turn believed to be tied to al-Fuqra, a terrorist group linked to fire bombings and murders in the United States and Canada.

"We are not denying the Fuqra connection," Hallye Jordan, a spokeswoman for the California Attorney General's Office told the newspaper. "But that is not the focus of this. We are looking to allegations of financial fraud."
The GateWay Academy has received public funding since its founding two years ago. It is chartered by the Fresno Unified School District, although the school is located in a rural commune in the Sierra Nevada foothills, several hundred miles away. Officials with the California Justice Department are trying to account for $1.3 million in public funds that are missing.

http://www.articlearchives.com/crime-law-enforcement-corrections/criminal-offenses-fraud/1093549-1.html



robdogbucky