Why should we think they are not still spying on Americans??

[kentuck]

Just because George W Bush left and Barack Obama came in? If there is a special operations within the CIA, there would be no need to stop it just because of an election. Leon Panetta would know about it? I doubt it.

The CIA is a filthy lot. They would not stop their dirty deeds just because of a new Commander in Chief. How do we know that Dick Cheney and George W Bush are still not getting information through the CIA and the NSA? We don't know. My bet is that they still are. Maybe paranoid to the extreme, huh?

[WeDidIt]

1. Cheney Stay Behinds

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/03/31/hersh-cheney-behind

[kentuck]

5. Thanks for the link.

I had not read that.

<snip>
HERSH: I’ll make it worse. I think he’s put people left. He’s put people back. They call it a stay behind. It’s sort of an intelligence term of art. When you leave a country and, you know, you’ve driven out the, you know, you’ve lost the war. You leave people behind. It’s a stay behind that you can continue to contacts with, to do sabotage, whatever you want to do. Cheney’s left a stay behind. He’s got people in a lot of agencies that still tell him what’s going on. Particularly in defense, obviously. Also in the NSA, there’s still people that talk to him. He still knows what’s going on. Can he still control policy up to a point? Probably up to a point, a minor point. But he’s still there. He’s still a presence.

[NightWatcher]

2. they havent changed anything. If you think the Prez runs the CIA and other super secret intel ags

I'd like to sell you a used bridge

[CoffeeCat]

4. You gotta wonder about the President...

Did he know the extent of the corruption before he ran for President?

Now that he understands what's crawling around on the underbelly of our democracy--what does he think? Is
he hopeful about changing it? Or has he been bullied into compliance by their overwhelming power and evil?

Will he even try to change it?

Is it possible to change it?

[kentuck]

6. JFK and RFK understood how they operated...

But they did not live long enough to do anything about it.

[CoffeeCat]

11. Speaking of the Kennedys...

...it sent a chill down my spine when Caroline bowed out of the NY Senate race so erratically.

Caroline is an intelligent, thoughtful person. If she was considering a Senate run, she made
the decision after consulting family and after careful consideration.

It felt as if she was reminded, in very strong terms, what happens to Progressives who attempt
to run for office--especially one as powerful as NY Senator.

Jack and Robert didn't bow down to these criminals, but Caroline couldn't run fast enough.

That was jarring, in my opinion.

[TBF]

3. I guess it depends upon which Americans they are spying on, and whether

they are doing it legally or not. Here is the latest from DOJ on that: http://www.eff.org/files/filenode/jewel/jewelmtdobama.pdf.

The Patriot Act has not been repealed yet either.

[HereSince1628]

7. We shouldn't think that at all...

Law enforement and prosecutors ALWAYS want things to "help" them lock-up what they percieve to be the bad guys. Bending to the pressure of those who "only wish to keep us safe" is always something to be done with great caution.

The Founders, who were a band of insurrectionists, completely understood that. Hence, their attempt to guarantee us protection in our persons and our papers from unreasonable searches and seizures. It is only idiots like Scalia that think the Founders would have said our electronic communications were to be protected if they had actually meant to protect our electronic communications.

[Hydra]

8. Say hello to Agent Mike!

:hi:

You get used to it. Being watched. You begin to wonder what it would be like, never having someone looking over your shoulder.

[snooper2]

9. Maybe paranoid to the extreme, huh?

Yep-

Because 98% of DU'ers have no clue what it takes to actually "wiretap" somebody...

[bertman]

12. You're right. I have no clue. But I will tell you that someone I know, who is a private

investigator, offered to show me how to tap a phone and even record the calls. I was astonished because I thought it was some elaborate process. He said, "You're kidding, right. It's easy. I can show you how and you can do it yourself."

I did not take him up on it, but now I wish I had.

Tell us snooper2, how difficult is it?

[snooper2]

13. difficult?

I wouldn't say difficult per-say-

First of all, there are usually 2 people at most who have security clearance to enforce warrants at any given Telecommuncations company-

We never participated in illegal wiretapping- that was AT&T and possibly Verizon I believe working in cahoots with the Feds ( they have huge networks so they probably have a larger number of people enforcing -CALEA...

There are two main levels- you can get the origination/termination TNs/length of call etc.,
The next level warrant is to actually capture the audio stream.

The people with clearance actually enforce the warrant which must be signed by a judge. They also work with the FBI ( 95% of the cases ).

Most all companies use third party vendors to gather information and in some cases audio stream. Those vendors cannot randomly tap anybody they want- Something must be done on the network side first once the Telco has a signed valid Warrant. Those vendors also have the network interfaces to the centers that actually receive the information. ( I.E. the FBI ) ( And no I'm not going in to any more details :) )


So, tell me how your PI can tap anybody in the U.S.- any cell phone, POTS line, VoIP line- I'm really curious :)

[bertman]

35. Thanks for the explanation, snooper2. I did not say he could tap ANY phone. I said

he told me he could tap a phone--in this instance meaning a person's home phone--so the calls could be listened in on and recorded.

I doubt seriously that he got a warrant for any of the taps he did because he was doing a lot of, shall we say, marital infidelity work, at the time.

But your explanation leads me down another line of thinking which suggests that there are the "law enforcement/intelligence/judicial" routes to monitoring and recording phone communications--to which you allude in your post, AND there are the "extra-judicial" methods that do not follow protocol and can be done by any individual with the skills and equipment that are required.

I don't see these as mutually exclusive. What do you think?

[dkofos]

10. The system is still in place. So, yes they are still spying on us.

But it's all legal. Just ask the DOJ.

[snooper2]

14. the "system" is just one big black box right...

With all the phone calls of every American going in and out of it right

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[annabanana]

16. link

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2007/06/spy_room

[snooper2]

17. I am quite aware of that peering center

and the tapping of Internet DATA-


But we are talking about the wiretapping of phone calls, not trying to capture Internet traffic from targetted IP Address.

[dkofos]

26. It's ALL DIGITAL DATA once it gets thru the first inbound circuit at the phone company.

And yes they reroute every single bit thru one of many peering centers.

If you don't believe me, pick up the phone and call a random number
and tell them the bomb is ready.

And don't forget to block your caller ID.

[snooper2]

27. What do you do for a living- this is a blantant falsehood

they is me by the way-

Been working on ATM, FrameRelay, DMS100/250/500, VoIP switchs and SBC's for my whole career...

when's the last time you captured a RTP stream? Even know what I am reffering to? So in your World ALL SIGNALING is going thru these peering centers to, correct?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Every single fucking D channel on every PRI in the country :rofl:

Every single MGCP signaling invite, when I call foward a call on my Cisco VoIP phone, the SIP Signaling :rofl:


Oh, and you don't know how caller ID blocking really works either apparently :rofl:


ITS ALL DIGITATL DATA :rofl: yep, every single phone call in the world is just 1's and 0's going through the same Verizon Peering center :rofl: I think they just upgraded the 10M service there to a DS3 to handle all the capacity

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[dkofos]

29. I guess youv'e been working on shit you don't understand, for your entire career.

Keep laughing dumb shit

[snooper2]

30. You really don't have a clue...

So, explain all this routing of traffic in technical details for me please...


Oh wait, I was just looking at a call trace from one of our customers to another one of our customers on the same VoIP switch...


I see it now, after the 100 trying another 100 trying was sent to Verizon :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I see Verizon's network server told my application server to send the media to their SBC as well :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[dkofos]

31. TFSFAAR

[snooper2]

32. So again - what you do for a living?

You answered 0 of my technical questions as well...


I know 100's of acronyms, but so far Google, Yahoo and I are having a problem with this one-

Web
Your search - TFSFAAR - did not match any documents.

Suggestions:

Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
Try different keywords.
Try more general keywords.




We did not find results for: TFSFAAR. Try the suggestions below or type a new query above.Suggestions:

Check your spelling.
Try more general words.
Try different words that mean the same thing.
Try asking a question on Yahoo! Answers

[dkofos]

33. YANOI

[snooper2]

34. ISN YHNCWITFUATA SYMUSATMNBYAACCTOFADC

I see now, you have no clue what in the fuck you are talking about, so you make up stupid acronyms that mean nothing because you are a call center ticket opener for a data company- that makes you an expert :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[NNN0LHI]

15. There is no need to wiretap anyone these days

The system currently in place records every single phone call made and saves the contents.

All someone has to do is punch in a phone number and some dates (kind of like our search function on DU), and any calls from that number from that time period can be easily retrieved.

That is my understanding of how it works anyway.

Comforting isn't it?

Don

[snooper2]

18. ROFL

Please do provide some of the technical details :rofl:


For example, my girlfriend and I are both on Sprint's network with our cell phones. Explain to me please how Sprint provides the call details ( orig/term numbers, length of call, if the call was forwarded, who it was forwarded to ) along with the audio stream to this ( black box ) where some CIA guy can just do a ( a DU like search function )

And I'm sure the government is doing this without Sprint's knowledge as well correct?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



And- no plane hit the Pentagon :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[NNN0LHI]

19. Here you go laughing boy

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1948927&page=1

[snooper2]

22. I remember that article-

and if you see-

"AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth -- have been turning over detailed call histories of all their customers since Sept. 11, 2001, to help the NSA compile what it hopes will be "the largest database ever assembled in the world."


So, as I noted above- the Telecommunications company would have to be working in cahoots with the government for them to be able to do this. THEY are turning over the records illegally, and since they have huge networks that's how they got the 200 million number. ( based on number of lines served )....

I can also tell you they don't have the actual "conversations"- that was done but at a much much MUCH smaller scale- yes illegally

More than likely they were turning over or making available the billing records for all customers. I.E. then in theory you could put that in what would have to be a HUGE Database- 1000's of Terabytes- to search through what number called what number when. Again, they don't have the audio- would be technically impossible- fuck- any TDM or VoIP switch would crash at the thought of that :rofl:

[kentuck]

23. What's so funny about that??

That's pretty terrifying.

[snooper2]

25. The funny part is people's lack of understanding

of how telephony works...

and people confusing the issues between a carrier providing billing records vs. the CIA listening to all our conversations...

( the feds are not listening nor have the ability to listen to everyone's conversations )


And as I stated above they never should have even provided the billing records- And small number of people working at those companies who did do it should have been punished.

[Fireweed247]

20. not paranoid- of course they are!

The wanted to make their illegal wiretapping legal(which isn't actually possible-they are still criminals) for a reason. Obama supported it. I see no reason to believe they have stopped.

[kentuck]

21. There are more ways to spy than just by telephone, right?

Emails, for example.

[mmonk]

24. No evidence to the contrary.

[EFerrari]

28. I assume they are. n/t