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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:05 AM
Original message
Did Aliens Visit This Planet in Ancient Times? (picture download heavy)
When I was 12 I read "Chariots of the Gods" --- I am now 52 and I have to say I still agree with Erich von Daniken - I believe that there was an intervention from someplace besides Earth in the deep, dark past- I believe that extraterrestrials came here and helped shape this planet... I know I will be flamed for saying this stuff but I have been reading more on the topic and I see evidence of ancient visitors...

In case you are interested... I am an Atheist. I have a background in science. I am curious about what DU thinks regarding this.






2000 year old "mechanical computer" found in the Agean Sea- I saw this in Athens:


This hieroglyph was found on the walls in a temple at Abydos in Egypt. It is estimated to be at least 3000 years old.

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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. Some of the art from centuries ago seems to support aerial visitations.
I think the things you've posted and many others suggest extraterrestrial involvement in some human events.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I know it makes
a lot of people uncomfortable... thinking that we may have had "help" from visitors... I find it to be obvious. I do not think we are the center of the universe nor are we extra special... I just think we are one of many planets who have life and we are unique in that we are evolving.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. Rationally, we must accept there are likely civilizations million of years more advanced.
The Universe is supposedly 13 billion years old. Our earth is 4.5 billion. There are millions of planets that might support life similar to ours. We don't know if interstellar travel is possible. We only know it's not possible for us NOW, with our level of knowledge.

Long before the term UFO gained currency, such things in the skies were reported and recorded in art.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #13
33. Or we may be looking at our own past.
One scientist described human civilization as a society with amnesia. He's the same guy who said that some of the structures in Mexico or Central America are actually 40,000 years old and that explains why Columbus didn't meet anybody with the technology to have built them.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #33
132. Society Gets Huge Amnesia
Without cultural forgetting, we wouldn't move forward. See: Carse.
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Mr. Hyde Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
41. We may be little more than yeast cells compared to some of the life out there
or we may very well be the only hope for life in the universe. We have no idea where we stand in the universe. We have no idea how significant or insignificant we are beyond what our senses lead us to conclude about our relative dominance as an earth species.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #41
189. I am too fabulous to be yeast.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #189
193. and too good looking to boot...!!!
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #41
255. Exactly. Based on the evidence, it's more likely that we are the first and to date only
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 10:55 PM by stopbush
self-aware and rational life form in the universe. Our mere existence at least confirms that as a possibility. There had to be a first sentient, rational life force, and we may be it. Maybe it takes 13-billion years for a life form like ours to evolve, even in parallel universes (if they exist).

At the same time, there is to date no evidence that other life as advanced as ours exist in the universe, let alone life forms that are more advanced than man. Doesn't mean that there aren't such life forms, simply that the evidence hasn't been discovered to suggest such a thing.

To aver that more-advanced societies than ours "have to exist" in the universe is absolute speculation.
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dos pelos Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
225. The Drake equation
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 02:16 PM by dos pelos
We are just beginning to transcend our anthropomorphism in thinking about this,like Copernicus,realizing we are not the center of the universe,funny little myopic islanders in a great archipelago.Here is a speculation on how crowded the house may be:



The Drake equation states that:

N = R \ fp \ ne \ fl \fi \fc \L

where:

N is the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible;

and

R is the average rate of star formation in our galaxy
fp is the fraction of those stars that have planets
ne is the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
fl is the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point
fi is the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc is the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs
of their existence into space
L is the length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space.

Lets hope Mr. Obama is helping to ensure,that for us, L is a very large number

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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
38. It's impossible that we're the only planet with advanced life-forms,
given the magnitude of the sheer number of galaxies we've calculated must exist so far.

I think it's a distinct possibility that some civilizations have developed far enough be able to travel, and not only through so-called wormholes but also inter-dimensionally. These travelers might have gone to many planets conducting experiments with crossbreeding and civilization-building since before we even began our human history here on earth. There's evidence for that, like you said.

But why do you think we are unique in that we are evolving? Is the evolutionary impulse not found everywhere throughout the universe? Evolution is another word for mutation, change. All forms change continuously. The only constant is the ever-changing underlying energy, that quantum soup at the base of all forms.

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bulloney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #38
154. But, but Earth's only 6000 years old. The sun revolves around US.
That's what some religions have told us.

Man ran around with the dinosaurs. And snakes talked.

You can't dispute religions.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #154
156. That is the same religion that has God riding around in a mechanical contraption as in Ezekiel
And has God riding in a "tabernacle" for forty years which sat upon a pillar of flame in the night time and a pillar of clouds in the day time as in Genesis.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #154
196. Who knew the Flintstones was a HISTORICAL DOCUMENTARY!!!
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #38
263. No, it's improbable, not impossible.
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gort Donating Member (567 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
107. That would be a violation of General Order 1
AKA The Prime Directive:

"As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Starfleet personnel may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Starfleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation."

Live Free and Prosper or Nanu Nanu.

Love and Barada Nikto,

Gort
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Whoa_Nelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. Cool pics
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Hey!
Don't cha love this stuff?

I got my ultra skeptical husband to watch a show I Tivoed - it was about ancient astronauts and so on... He was totally convinced that this is where the idea of God came from...
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ArtVandelay Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
4. I am a scientist too. And I agree with you.
Nobody ever believes anything that goes against the church's bullshit, even if they are non-religious. I mean gee those Egyptian heiroglyphs clearly depict ancient weather balloons. And that petroglyph of a UFO is obviously just some shaman's way of calling deer to the slaughter. And those spaceships being around when Jesus was hanging, well clearly those are metaphorical images meant to reassure us of our place awaitng us in heaven.

Scientifically it is illogical and frankly almost impossible that we are the only planet with life. Now assume that those other planets weren't War Planets like ours, imagine what the money could do if it went for tech instead of war, and multiply that over millions of years.

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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. I am going to venture a guess
that your field is neither physics nor biology.
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ArtVandelay Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Its Biology. And my good friend is a PhD in Physics at Los Alamos.
He agrees with me.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #27
59. I don't disagree with your claim of life on other planets.
That much would, if untrue, require a complete shift in our understanding of the universe.

Rather, I find your belief in "War Planets" (or rather, some sort of alternative) to be something at odds with everything we've observed on Earth. Predation and societies have both independently evolved many times, and resource limitation is a given anywhere there is reproduction. Belief in Utopian planets seems more suited to science fiction than science; it looks like the type of belief that one comes to by looking at a particular situation and imagining an alternative to that, rather than by looking at the processes that created that situation and figuring out what else those processes might have created--especially given the rather shocking degree to which convergent evolution exists here on Earth.

As for aliens visiting us? The very reason why extraterrestrial life practically must exist is the exact same reason I highly doubt it would have visited us. Space is quite large. Why would it have bothered? Not only could they--which is quite a problem indeed--but why would they?

I think it is significantly easier to solve all imaginable problems involving any conceivable limitation found "at home" than it is to solve the problem of getting from one point to a point hundreds of millions light-years away, to say nothing of doing that in a manner so trivial that it would be worthwhile to scout out every single star system in the entire universe (as one would have to do in order to find humanity). By the time a complex society has developed to the point where it is possible for that society to visit humanity, it almost certainly would have managed to address every single factor that might have driven them to do so.
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ArtVandelay Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #59
70. My war planet comment was meant only that this planet has chosen to be war-like.
Religous zealots cause wars; ego and machismo cause wars. If a planet as a whole unites and refuses to put up with these behavioral maladies a planet can evolve. If you envision yourself in space looking down at Earth, what do you think the chance for its evolution from violence is? You see religious group after religious group being violent, and then blaming every other religious group for violence. I am not longing for a "utopian planet" so much as I am saying that we will never be there under our current idiotic behavior. To assume that no planet has managed peace is ridiculous.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #59
90. I think more to the point than asking "why?" is asking "why not?"
Any being capable of attaining interstellar travel would be driven by a sense of wonder and curiosity about the unknown, and what could be more unknown than a totally different intelligence species?

I'm afraid I don't get your argument at all.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. Life does not work that way.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 02:51 AM by Occam Bandage
Life does not engage in activity because it can, but because it is driven to. Any such drives can easily be met by technology that is far easier to attain than fast interstellar travel.

What could be more unknown? Well, quite a few things. A computer could simulate far more interesting, stimulating problems than reality could ever provide. Even creating new life, whether real or simulated, would be far easier than going out in search of it. Once you figure out all the rules of the universe, you can make an endless string of results without having to leave home.

If there is life out there, I'd wager it's far more like us than we might expect. Natural selection doesn't repeat itself, but it certainly rhymes with itself. There are only so many ways to solve a problem.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #92
96. Still not seeing your point
Since when did "easier" enter into the equation? "Easier" didn't drive people to construct ships and boats and sail across a hostile environment in search of new horizons. "Easier" didn't drive people to strap themselves into what amounts to huge gas-propelled missiles and hurl themselves into the sky. I mean, looking at what we, as humans, have done, added to your argument that they're likely to be more similar to us than different, suggests quite the opposite from what you're proposing. It makes travel and exploration MORE likely, not less likely.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #96
99. The "pioneer spirit" is a myth.
People do things because it enables them to acquire resources, or because they find it pleasurable. A society capable of traversing space would have outlets far better suited to both. Space travel "because they could" is about as reasonable as suggesting someone is likely build an enormous Babbage-style analytical engine out of pebbles and beer cans in order to do a few sums "because they could"
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #99
100. As arguments go, yours is most unconvincing.
I'm inclined to believe you just enjoy being contrary, since you support none of your assertions with a shred of evidence to back them up.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #100
133. And I'm With Occam
For the simple reason that if aliens had been here and "advanced" us, it wouldn't have taken until the 1400s for Westerners to use black powder.
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #99
105. I agree with Mythsaje.
If alien life were at all like us, they would have a strong desire to seek out other intelligent life in the universe. I don't know why we humans have that desire, but we obviously do. Look around you. People long for contact with other intelligent species. They grasp at straws to believe that we are being contacted. They long for the possibility of interstellar travel in large part because they hope to meet someone a little like us out there. Look at sci-fi that involves aliens. Would it have such broad appeal if we didn't relish (yet fear) the idea of meeting the other?
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #99
137. bull shit.. awe and wonder still inspire and still have people ask many questions
We are inquisitive, nosey bunch.. of course there's always a money-bag with purse strings asking "what's in it for me", but that's only because we somehow have embraced this idea of capitalism for a long while.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #99
186. We are trying to do the same thing
As far as your statement about 'acquiring resources', in our evolutionary history one of the ways we've acquired resources was by being explorers and going to new places and trying new things. This trait is ingrained in us and we are currently trying to explore the universe 'because we can'. We have sent a variety of unmanned satellites and vehicles into space, and once we figure out if/how interstellar travel is possible we are going to do that too.
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #92
173. "Life does not engage in activity because it can but because it is driven to"
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 10:56 AM by crikkett
You're defining a very lazy existence. What drives you to say this? Are you saying that a living thing doesn't seek novelty, just because it can? How do you explain inventors and athletes?

(Your statement's disproven by this very forum, if you stipulate that a) humans are alive and b) nobody's being forced to post here on Sunday morning).

Hell, it's disproven by my well-fed and sheltered parrot, who constantly seeks novelty even though he doesn't have to.

I'm being driven outside to tend flowers.
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #59
95. Great Distances? Folded Space, Singularity, Wormholes...
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #95
98. Inverted Rothschild Tangents, Unified Field Burritos, Quarks a la Mode.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #95
143. Yup
Frank Herbert was an alien all right.
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #59
150. "The very reason why extraterrestrial life practically must exist is the exact same reason..."
But that reason, for me, is why I don't rule anything out. Maybe there *is* a planet that has figured out how to work more cooperatively than we have. Maybe they've evolved without religion or superstition, or have evolved past that.

Why would they have bothered visiting us? Well, why not? Maybe they're travelers, just wandering the universe checking it out. It seems to me that if humans had the capability to travel into the deep reaches of space there would be plenty of people who would do it just to see what is out there. I guess I just don't agree that a society so complex would have no reason to visit earth or anywhere else. Wouldn't a thirst for knowledge be the exact reason why a society becomes complex in the first place? Why would that go away just because they've figured out how to travel vast distances in space?

And maybe they didn't have to scout out every single star system in the entire universe. Maybe they've figured out a way to focus in on systems that have the best possibilities for supporting life and have traveled there. Maybe their society is vast and they can send out billions of travelers at a time. Maybe they are closer than we think and found us pretty quickly.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #59
199. We haven't really evolved.
we are still the same warring species that existed thousands of years ago, destroying our planet and other species that rely upon our planet and that we rely upon.

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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
139. I'm An Artist And I Think It's Pure Arrogance
To think humans weren't capable of coming up with bold ideas, concepts, and depictions of technology that doesn't yet exist on their own.

See posts #131 and #138.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #139
178. Not Any "Humans", Just Non-Nordic Brown Ones

Prior to contact with white people, there are no other civilizations that could have come up with the type of monumental architecture which Europeans had not been able to manage through most of ancient history.

Get it?
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #178
205. You see there are many who would prefer to accept
that aliens built Egypt because the fact that North Africans were so sophisticated destroys all the racist myths.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #178
245. Ah ...
But what about Greek people? They had gods.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
5. No.
This has been another episode of Simple Answers To Simple Questions.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yes.
I know you are wrong on this one.


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ArtVandelay Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Yup. Wrong. n/t
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
21. You sound very open minded. ;)
There are Earthly explanations for the all the pieces in your OP, and they've been debunked to death for years.
One of the best art-centric sites that explains most of is here, but it isn't loading at the moment.
I'm sure if you do some scientific investigations using Google, you can find more info.

Besides, how do you know UFOs aren't really human-made time machines? :)
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Google has a cache of it
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 12:40 AM by Muttocracy
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:2xqh4f07np8J:sprezz...

"...
The point is that no one of the authors of these web sites takes into account the symbolic meaning of these strange elements in respect to the art of the period. Worst of all, by considering these elements as the representation of something real or really seen by the artist, they assume that the artist, eg. an Italian artist of the 15th century or an anonymous Byzantine painter, would actually be allowed to insert any non canonical or un-codified element into a religious representation. On the contrary, in past times the commissioners (those who choose the subject and supervised the execution of the art work - in these cases the religious institutions) would have never allowed the author to insert into a work of art anything other than what previously decided, especially in case of religious subjects. In this latter case, in addition, restrictions were even stronger.

At this point one may wonder whether these authors writing about art and UFOs have ever entered a museum or a church. If so, they would be astonished about the infinite amount of strange objects included into paintings, statues and art works of any kind
..."

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. Sweet! Good thinking. nt
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. Google has time travel ya know
;)
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Heheh. :) A pdf of the original article is here:
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #28
112. Some of this art gives me chills...it is rather creepy...nt
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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #28
117. Law of large numbers.
could explain many drawings, if you see enough shapes, you could find a group, present them together, and by perspective give them meaning.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #117
233. (facepalm)
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #28
182. That's why a "Scientist" is not a good candidate for "Art Historian" /nt
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #28
195. Imagine someone from 2000 years in the future trying to understand contemporary art.
Hell we live in this society and many of us don't understand contemporary art.
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
226. How does that explain the petroglyphs and non religious "symbols"?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
167. for simple minds?
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That Is Quite Enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
8. Man, I find Ancient Astronaut topics fascinating.
Think it all started when I watched some program (I think it was on the History Channel or something like that) that was pretty heavy into theories about Atlantis, and also the Annunaki, ancient astronauts...real Zecharia Sitchin and Terra Paper type stuff.

I guess I'm a kook but whatever. I think there could very well be something there. :P

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ArtVandelay Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Why would that make you a kook? nt
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That Is Quite Enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'm pretty sure that's what the skeptics would call me.
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mr blur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
176. Yeah, I'm afraid you're right. This one would, anyway.
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Sugarcoated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
243.  You're not a kook, just open minded
and not arrogant enough to think you know everything.

Actually, a lot of skeptics explanations for unexplained phenomenon sound kooky to me.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #243
249. The sceptics aren't attacking this thread as "WOO." Not the usual vicious pileon
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Sugarcoated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #249
252. I don't understand the meanness
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #252
256. yes, it is completely senseless.
:pals:
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JeffreyWilliamson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
11. I'll try and answer by posing a couple of observations...
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 12:27 AM by JeffreyWilliamson
If aliens with advanced technology arrived on Earth and were willing to interact with human civilizations in such a way that led those civilizations to pass down this knowledge, why then did these aliens leave and never return?

If a person living many centuries ago drew a picture that showed a being riding in a comet, does that mean that the civilization of the individual in question was visited by aliens, or does it merely mean that this person has an imagination? Should people living ten centuries from now believe that WE have made contact with aliens if they happen to come across an old episode of Star Trek, or should they simply understand it as humanity's ability to wonder at the universe?
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. well put. A lot of mechanical inventions mimic things in the natural world too. nt
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ellie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
160. "Why did the aliens leave and never return?"
I like to think it's because the aliens didn't think we were worth knowing.
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JeffreyWilliamson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #160
163. I hear the aliens can be jerks like that. n/t
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
184. Because Ancient Non-White People Were Stupid And Unimaginative

You see, a society that spends its time imagining things like "Star Trek" or "The Flying Nun" is entirely caught up in fantasy, and cannot accomplish remarkable technological feats.

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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
210. who says that they have not come back?
perhaps they view us as inferior and do not contact us but come here, observe, take animals for experiments etc.
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Kip Humphrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
223. The alien is inside your head. You recognize these images from a contemporary perspective.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
14. I think our brains work by mapping unknowns to most similar known reference points.
It goes to the point where if I am thinking about something a lot, I will mishear people talking about that thing, but my whole brain is mapped around a certain concept set. That concept set in the modern world is formed by my experience technology, so I see a helicopter in the bottom image, something that looks like a saucer in side view to its right, and something reminiscent of a plane beneath that. The first image reminds me of a man in an underwater suit, with hoses going in to it.

But I have to realize that these are cultural reference points, my way of interpreting these things. Specifically, I don't see what any entity advanced enough to master interstellar space travel would be doing with helicopters or planes, or old style vacuum clear style hoses. If it were a re-occurring representation of a specific type of saucer, or Alien creature, across continents and history, I could see it. But what I'm seeing here is my mind loosely interpreting old images into my modern familiar concepts.
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. instead of hoses I first saw tree branches/roots on the right side. nt
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JeffreyWilliamson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. That's exactly what I saw.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 12:31 AM by JeffreyWilliamson
Tree branches or vines.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Well there you go. You probably spend less time with a vacuum cleaner than I.
thus your concept set.
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I'm sure I should spend more time with my vacuum! And check out these shuttles
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 12:37 AM by Muttocracy
:rofl: plus I have an upright rather than a canister.

Space shuttles or....






weaving shuttles
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #20
94. Why I can see its landing gear in the wooden version!
;)
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JeffreyWilliamson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Regarding our brains mapping unknowns to most similar known reference points...
We do this with facial recognition as well. Interesting then that when we imagine aliens we immediately have a tendancy to picture beings somewhat similar to us--two eyes, mouth, limbs, etc. Or at least similar to animals on our own world.

But aliens evolving in an unknown environment could be of any appearance. They may even be silicone-based, and if we ran across them we may never even recognize them as being a form of life as we recognize it.

Funny then that these supposed ancient drawings, or even current drawings of alien visitors always seem to resemble us. That may be the clearest indicator of all that what we are drawing is coming from our own minds, as opposed to outer space.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
93. Yeah, that's a really interesting point.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 02:59 AM by napoleon_in_rags
We have no reason to think that Aliens would look like us. But then again, do we really have reason to think they wouldn't? I actually think this is one of the most interesting questions in biology: Are there forms that evolution will naturally gravitate toward universally? I think Dawkins said that they eye evolved independently in like 7 different places, though I may be misremembering....And even if so, might that be just part of our basic materials or environment? What ABOUT, as you say, silicon based life or something like that?

My gut tells me that you are right though. When I first heard about the "greys" via Whitley Streiber's Communion, my first thought was to contrast their faces against our own, and then our primate ancestors. My though that was if you were to continue that evolutionary trend: Loss of hair, growth of brain area, shinkage of protrusion of mouth, increase in eye size etc. You'd end up with something like a Grey. So I see them as something of a shadow or ourselves, a spectre of our current selves transplanted into a technologically advanced future. I think that's why they have such psychological resonance, such a mythological gravity. But I agree they are probably a reflection in essence, just as the faces we can see in the clouds if we lay on our backs and watch the sky.
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comrade snarky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #93
232. Smaller lips is not an evolutionary trend upward
First off, that's not how evolution works. It's not an upward trend to a higher form, the very concept of higher an lower don't exist in evolutionary theory.
There is complexity and fitness for the environment, that's it. An oyster is far better suited to life in shallow water than I am. That doesn't make it superior any more than it makes me superior because I have mobility on dry land. It's different adaptations to different environments.

Second, the lip thing. I'm afraid that an old belief that has it's roots in an ugly chapter of our history. Apes and monkeys don't have protruding lips. They barely have lips at all, what they do have is a protruding jaw.


The thick lips = less evolved is from old depictions of black people being monkey like. Now, I'm not saying you believe that, please understand that. I'm saying it's a stereotype so old most people have forgotten the origin.

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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
192. The point is that we don't understand what ancient people saw when they looked at these pictures.
We see a guy in an astronaut suit.

They may have seen the great god or goddess so and so. If there are any descendents of the people who drew these still around, they might be able to explain to us what these drawing represent. Otherwise we're in the dark.

In the case of the heiroglyphs, this is a writing system that's was translated over 100 years ago. Sure some of the signs look like airplanes or spaceships to us but to the Egyptians who could read them they represented something quite different and ultimately represented a sound just like our letters. Come to think of it maybe the letter "q" represents a space alien.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #192
224. Well we KNOW the letter q represents an alien...


:) But that's besides the point. The issue to me is that we stay open minded, realize that there are many equally valid theories of what those were, some of them mundane, some extraordinary, but not that they were representing space-craft. For instance, what if a vastly advanced Q like alien computed likely futures for our planet, saw airplanes, and provided images to them to the ancients? That's just as valid to me as thinking the aliens themselves flew in plane-like objects.
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LuvNewcastle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
17. I also think that we've been visited
by aliens through the years. I just wonder if they came from other planets or other dimensions.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
23. This has all happened before ...

Just sayin' ... well, *someone* had to say it.





Hmmm ...

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PermanentRevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. So Say We All!
That was my first reaction, too...
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ChimpersMcSmirkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #23
51. Or maybe it didn't?
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 01:08 AM by ChimpersMcSmirkers

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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. Well, sure ...

If you want to put rational alternative possibilities into evidence.

I gets my history from Sci-Fi. :)

So say we all.

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ChimpersMcSmirkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #57
74. Well I have it on good authority that the aliens ride looked like this:

;-)
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ForeverWonderful Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
114. That is so cute
except the bottom image is about 4,000 years old.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #114
215. So's the top one!

Older, actually.

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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
130. You Realize the Gold Object Could Just As Easily Be A Depiction of a Fish-Type Creature, Yes?
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #130
212. What!?

You mean it's clearly not a depiction of a colonial raptor made by the descendants of the cylon/human races after they colonized what we think of as Earth, remembering the technological past of their ancestors as those memories were fading into obscurity?

I'm shocked.

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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #212
244. Yeah, Well
I'm slow like that.
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MichellesBFF Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
147. Ron Moore was right!
We're all Cylons, descendants of the 12 colonies.

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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #147
214. Smart man, that Ron ...

Who knew he was actually doing a documentary, dramatized of course. :)

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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
25. Or how about "The Astronaut" in the Nazca Lines?
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 12:37 AM by Lucian


It wouldn't surprise me if we were visited from beings in outer space somewhere in our past. It also wouldn't surprise me if we weren't.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #25
120. Looks like someone throwing up, to me (nt)
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
29. Who is to say that other beings would find it necessary
to literally travel billions of miles - millions of light years - to reach our little corner of the Milky Way Galaxy? Remember Contact?

Who is to say there weren't other advanced civilizations right here in our own solar system or even on our own earth millions of years before ours?

Who is to say that there isn't an advanced race of beings hidden... living right here on earth or in our solar system now?

Just having fun... but who is to say?







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JeffreyWilliamson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
48. Your first point is actually the most important to consider...
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 01:01 AM by JeffreyWilliamson
We must remind ourselves of the vastness of space, our galaxy, and the universe. When considering this vastness, we should also be careful not to forget the vastness of time itself. Considering the technology, resources, distance, and time necessary for one civilization in our galaxy to reach another, much less the odds of these civilizations even existing during the same time frame, why should we think that we are so important that we merit a visit, much less personal interaction between our civilizations?

We are talking about a civilization that would be considerably more advanced than even we are today. They will probably have existed for countless thousands of years, advancing to a level unheard of by our standards if they have developed the technology necessary to reach us. And yet, thousands of years ago, when we were at a developmental point just above cavemen, they decided to come visit us? To do what, teach us to make mechanical computers?

It just doesn't make sense when taking in the scale of it all. We just aren't that important, yet...
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #48
102. Then again, any sentient race might be of considerable interest to such a culture
particularly when you consider the kind of creatures likely to survive against a generally hostile environment and dangerous predators to become the top species on their own planet. Violent, aggressive, and often too damn clever for their own good.

"We'd best keep an eye on them. They could be trouble."

Or, conversely,

"Despite how violent they are now, they show potential to rise above their troubled evolution. It will be interesting to see which way they go. Will they destroy themselves, or will they find a way to go beyond their current limitations?"

Just sayin'...
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JeffreyWilliamson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #102
159. Disagreed on both points...
Firstly, were an alien civilization develop a level of technology capable of locating and reaching us, they would have become so far advanced beyond our civilization that we would pose little threat to them either in the present or future. We are talking about a civilization that will likely be several hundred, if not several thousand years ahead of us in technological development. They would have no need to fear us, and even if we somehow suddenly managed to pose some threat to them, they would likely be able to swat us down like gnats.

Secondly, on the point of another civilization's interest in our potential, it is possible that any advanced civilization may well be interested in that potential, but they have to know we are here before becoming interested in us.



The above graphic represents our position in the Milky Way. We occupy a region of space that is extremely far from the center, and extremely sparsely populated by other star systems, much less any possible civilizations. Were any other advanced civilization to develop in the galaxy, it is more likely that it would be located more towards the more dense center, (although it could randomly develop anywhere, including on the opposite side of the galaxy as us, making us even further apart, and harder for us to reach or detect one another).

Remember that even if a highly developed civilization were to invent some form of detection device for intelligent life, like a form of powerful telescope, that device would rely upon observation of physical information that had been broadcast to it across thousands of light years, and thus require thousands of years to for this information to reach the observers. What I mean to say is, any observation made by an alien civilization from afar would mean that they were in fact observing data from Earth's distant past. Since we have only arisen as anything resembling a civilization within the last several thousand years, that information could only be reaching even relatively close civilizations now, and that's assuming they know exactly where to look--which isn't likely considering our location.

We can almost confirm this scenario by way of our own search for civilizations near us. There may indeed be some recently developed civilization relatively near us, and yet SETI has never detected it, because SETI is searching for radio signals that would have required transmission in the past in order to reach us in our current time frame. What if a civilization has only been broadcasting recently? Their portion of the sky would appear dark to us right now were we to look in their direction, because their signal would not have reached us yet. And remember, we ourselves have only been announcing our presense for about a century...

That's not to say that an advanced civilization couldn't be actively exploring star systems physically in order to find intelligent life. But remember again our location--if any civilization was serious about finding intelligent life in our galaxy, it would be smarter for them to look towards the center of the Milky Way, especially when considering the physical distance between star systems. They would increase their odds significantly by staying towards the center as opposed to the outer "backwoods country".

But once again, if a civilization were to spend such a huge amount of resources and time in seeking out intelligent life, and then to finally locate it here on Earth, and become so interested in us to stick around and influence ancient societies--why did they leave, never to return? Investing so much just to find us, only to then turn around, say "Later, dudes!" and leave is hardly a payoff worth their investment.
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realisticphish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
30. No
it's easy for us to put modern projections onto ancient art, but I really don't see any evidence for alien involvement in human culture.

I mean, the pyramids, for example. Why do people find it hard to believe that they built the pyramids using simple tools? They weren't homo erectus, they were human beings, with the same capacities for reasoning and problem solving that we have. They just had simpler technologies. Same deal with the Nazca lines.

Not to mention that the Egyptians, who are ridiculously meticulous in their record keeping, never mention anything about spaceships visiting them. Yes, I know, lack of proof is not proof of non-existence, but still.

Or in that medieval manuscript there, why isn't there text writing of people flying around inside spaceships? You'd think they would have mentioned it.

I love crypto-stuff as much as the next person, but for me it's just entertaining. Not real. Now, I'm not trying to turn you away from it or anything, but there it is.

btw, here's an interesting link about the egyptian chopper dealy: http://www.catchpenny.org/abydos.html
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #30
42. What could prove it to you? Anything?
Ezekiel writing in the first person that he was taken up into the sky and taught how to write?

The story of Icarus flying too close to the sun is exactly as you would expect technologically primitive people to imagine interplanetary flight. If someone had drawn a contemporary picture of him with a jet pack and thrust, it would be quite another matter, would it not?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. Better to ask yourself what it would take to disprove it.
If you can't think of any evidence that would modify your current belief, it's pointless to discuss it. Hopefully, you can.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Better to ask yourself why we keep running up against a brick wall in history.
Oh sure, there are people who make it all look quite seamless, but it isn't. Creationists ask to see the missing link or the morphing life form, but that same gap exists in human culture. You go back to a certain point, and they really can't explain why it doesn't go farther back. Some guy writes a book about guns, germs, and steel and people say, "Oh , that explains why these people advanced and these people didn't." except that it doesn't. What does explain it is culture moving backward from a common point, rather than one culture progressing while another didn't.
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #50
63. Unsustainable cultures do not equal truly advanced cultures, imo.
If aliens visited our culture sometime in the past, then perhaps it was with the aim of sabotage, eh?
Maybe malevolent aliens are where our globalized culture acquired the fatally false meme that Earth was made for us to conquer and rule. We are sooo advanced, that Earth is now bleeding at our triumphant feet. ;)
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #63
69. must you?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. read your mind? nt
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #50
125. What 'brick wall' are you talking about?
Seriously, I'm interested. Which culture, and when, are there problems tracing back the development?
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realisticphish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #42
53. it's also
exactly how you'd expect technologically primitive people to imagine how a bird would fly. seeing as how they made wings out of bird feathers, and swooped around like birds, that would be my first thought.

as to the first one, (besides the innumerable problems with biblical translations) that could just as easily be a metaphor for being enlightened by God. I really don't consider the Bible to be a historical document in any case, considering how much it's been tweaked.

what would convince me of historical influence by extra terrestrials (or, rather, what I would consider to be significant evidence for it) would be if in any of the many real, actual historical documents from antiquity, there was anything said about a literal craft descending from the sky and landing, discussed at some length, and possibly verified by other sources. That's a fluid standard of proof, of course, I would have to consider each piece of evidence in turn. But isolated carvings made by civilizations that had record keeping and yet don't mention ET influence just don't cut it with me.

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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #53
66. The great catastrophe
One of the most common elements of oral history in societies around the word was the great catastrophe. We have a rational and scientific explanation on how that came about which is much more plausible than god's punishment. It also explains how a great deal of knowledge could be lost in one fell swoop.


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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #42
121. Icarus is nothing to do with 'interplanetary flight'
It's a story that involves believing that the Sun is so close to the earth that flying high will melt wax. It's also a story about men trying to imitate birds, so that they could escape imprisonment on an island. Nothing to do with planets at all.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #121
190. It is also a metaphor of the sin of hubris--and what happens if you don't listen to Daddy
Daedelus, the great inventor, gets in trouble with King Minos for telling Theseus how to get in and out of the labyrinth, which he designed, so he can kill the Minotaur. When the angry king imprisons him, Daedelus designs wings out of feathers and wax so he and his son can fly off the island. Daedelus warns Icarus not to fly to close to the sun. Of course Icarus ignores his old man and ends up crashing into the sea. Daedelus has to live for the rest of his life with guilt for having taken on the powers of the gods.

Nothing much about aliens there.
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
31. Early corporatists used 'em!
Greedy bastards refused to pay the aliens the prevailing wages which explains why they have never returned.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
32. I think they came here in the summer of '47...
and are walking amongst us in human form. They were born of the human woman. But they were able to absorb themselves into the human body by their advanced technology, which is not even conceivable to most humans. They are a confused lot because most of them believe they are humans, also. The time is near that they will make themselves known. Just my uneducated opinion. :-)
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #32
45. Born in '47, were you?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #45
56. That is when I came to Earth...
:-)
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #56
85. Was it in a purple bauble?
That's how my sister arrived in '48. I don't know why it was purple. She doesn't particularly like purple. Maybe purple is a better color for overcoming the speed of light.

My mother says caesarean and my sister says purple bauble. Who am I to believe?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #85
155. :-)
Maybe we can believe them both?
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #56
267. nekkid?
you = turminatorz!!! zomg :scared:
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JeffreyWilliamson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
34. Also as an observation I'm not sure why this set includes a photo of the Antikythera mechanism.
This device is of human origin, and neither requires alien intervention in order to be created, nor implies alien intervention at all. Nor does it picture any supposed alien or modern device at all. The ancient Greeks were quite skilled at making mechanical devices, especially for temple use and time-telling. They even used basic steam technology.

We musn't allow ourselves to think that since we live in an age of modern technology, that in times before us there was no technology at all, nor should we insult ourselves or our ancestors by suggesting that the creation of technology required outside input. We are as smart as we were then after all.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #34
103. Because Archimedes was a space alien!
duh

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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
35. Homo sapiens is a remarkable species. We have needed no help from
extraterrestrials to "shape our world."

You see what you wish to see. Take the drawing of the "flying saucer" with the dots underneath it. You do realize, don't you, that the term "flying saucer" came about because a UFO sighter said that the UFO he saw flew in the same way a saucer might skip across water. That description of the way the UFO flew got mistranslated into people assuming the UFO was shaped like a saucer, and that has stuck. For decades, movies have depicted alien craft as saucer shaped. In the 1950-60s, it was common knowledge that UFOs were saucer shaped, and all of it based on a misconception of what a guy said.

Here we are, 60 years later, and you are retrofitting a 60-year-old misunderstanding onto some cave art. Amazing.

All of the examples you give above can inspire diverse impressions of what they depict. They're basically a Rorschach test.

I won't flame your thread because it's yet another example of the way the human mind sees what it wishes to see.
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JeffreyWilliamson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Beautifully said!
"Homo sapiens is a remarkable species. We have needed no help from extraterrestrials to 'shape our world.'"
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #35
46. Remember on Six Feet Under?
When Claire was being negative about anything more evolved than our present form? Her aunt's response was, "You're too smart for that." I feel the same way about people who insist that this is all there is. It isn't logical or scientific to believe that this is all there is.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #46
54. I never watched Six Feet Under.
Funny how people who are "too smart" to believe that "this is all there is" don't seem smart enough to insist on hard evidence to explain their leaps of faith on aliens, gods and other fantasies. Indeed, they only seem smart enough to accept the most fanciful, far-fetched and childish explanations for many things. I'll even go as far as to say that they seem reluctant to accept the simplest and most-logical explanations, preferring fantasy over fact much of the time.

Nobody has all the answers, but with the great track record that man has had in correctly explaining so many things in our universe, I'll go with the explanations that are evidence based, and I'll go ahead and believe that many explanations in the future are going to build on our evidentiary knowledge set of the universe, not upset or negate it.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #54
73. What human activity is killing polar bears?
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 01:37 AM by imdjh
Give me the scientific answer.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #73
254. Polar bear populations are thinning in some areas and growing in others.
What is the point of your question? Are you proposing the extraterrestrials are killing them?
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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
39. von Daniken's claims have their basis in ethnocentrism
As in, those primitive (primitive, brown, if we're honest) cultures surely couldn't have constructed x on their own. I think it's all foolishness. As another poster said, why did they disappear and why haven't they come back? Surely we could use some guidance before we completely poison the planet.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #39
80. According to him, it started with biblical translations.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 01:53 AM by imdjh
As in, those primitive (primitive, brown, if we're honest) cultures surely couldn't have constructed x on their own.

That's modern cultural backwash. Europe has traditionally regarded the ancient Egyptians as culturally common with Europe. There has long been a problem with how the Egyptians did some of their more amazing things (and more modern Greeks and Romans as well) because the technology to do those things wasn't evident. They have since discovered stone saws and cranes. The New World wonders are another story because different technology would be needed to do what was done and some very basic technology is missing from the record as well as the advanced technology. Turning it into an accusation of racism is a way to shut down discussion for political purposes.

I think it's all foolishness. As another poster said, why did they disappear and why haven't they come back? Surely we could use some guidance before we completely poison the planet.

The Portuguese navy never returned to Virginia, but the Driggs clan still lives there, not looking very Portuguese at this point.

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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #80
262. Not so much.
The New World wonders are another story because different technology would be needed to do what was done and some very basic technology is missing from the record as well as the advanced technology. Turning it into an accusation of racism is a way to shut down discussion for political purposes.

I don't have a "political purpose" in this. I just think the idea that aliens had to have built "wonders" because those poor primitives couldn't have is both condescending and ethnocentric. I think it's completely unreasonable and wild supposition. In my opinion, it's an intellectually bankrupt parallel to intelligent design advocates proposing that a "designer" is responsible for cellular machinery and complex structures instead of evolution.

The Portuguese navy never returned to Virginia, but the Driggs clan still lives there, not looking very Portuguese at this point.

Are you hinting that aliens still live amongst us? If you extend the comparison, the aliens wouldn't look much like aliens because of interbreeding, and there's a whole host of reasons why that is a completely ludicrous proposition. If that's what you're implying, then ask yourself about the feasibility of human-potato hybrids, because any organism on earth - a cat, a potato, a paramecium, E. coli, a thermophilic bacterium - would be more closely related than an alien. If not, then apologies for the misinterpretation.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
43. Lots of art, but no artifacts
They would have left something behind that we would have found.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
49. I think it's possible that ancient cultures were visited by extraterrestrials
I had a friend who was big into that stuff, and I can dig it.

Maybe we're all just lab rats, ya know? Maybe we're someone's idea of an experiment, or a joke.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
52. They would be dismayed - maybe not surprised -- that so many of today's "scientists" are so dogmatic
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #52
65. A video on open-mindedness I beg you to watch.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #65
72. Greyl? Assuming I can see your post, you want me to give you another chance?
:think: that would be damn openminded of me............. :hi:
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #52
76. Do you know what scientists do to people who dare to refute their "dogma"?
They give them Nobel prizes. Scientists are the least dogmatic people on Earth.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. apparently not on DU
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 01:49 AM by omega minimo
:shrug:
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #78
81. If someone could come up with any degree of convincing evidence for alien visitation,
they would immediately become the most well-known and beloved scientist to ever live on Earth. Skeptics, including myself, would instantly reverse position. It would quite possibly be the most groundbreaking, utterly important event in human history.
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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #81
264. Don't bother with this one.
I put the hammer down on this joker a while back about either UFOs or purple people (indigo babies, or whatever stupid thing they're calling it) - some kind of woowoo crap, anyhow - and he has absolutely no idea about what science is, or what constitutes repeatable, verifiable evidence. And if you bury him in an argument, he'll send you a nasty personal message and turn his replies off. This one's a lost cause.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #78
174. That's because people expect us to accept ancient aliens, ghosts, etc without any evidence at all
Come up with solid, verifiable proof that will stand up to independent scrutiny for the existence of alien visitation (ancient OR modern), and the scientific community will hail you.

Same thing for ghosts - come up with PROOF of their existence, and you'll have yourself a nice Nobel Prize.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #174
248. STOMP STOMP STOMP STOMP STOMP STOMP STOMP
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #76
191. Are you serious
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 11:48 AM by Juche
Have you met scientists? Do you know how much resistance and ridicule is put up to anything new or controversial in science? They dont award 'nobel prizes' to deviants. If they do it only comes after the deviant scientists perform decades of research until it becomes impossible to ignore and ridicule his ideas anymore. Suffice it to say controversial ideas are generally met with ridicule or ignored in science, not met with open mindedness and a desire to carry out double blind studies and investigation to get to the truth, no matter what the truth is.

I'd love it if scientists responed to controversial or novel theories by saying 'ok, lets set up some tests to examine this idea'. But that isn't what happens. Generally novel ideas or alternative ideas (especially in medicine) are met with ridicule or just ignored, not publically researched.

I have heard in the USSR they were at least willing to publically invest in research on paranormal or psychic abilities. We won't do that here, we just make fun of people who talk about them.

Various alternative medicines, extraterrestrials, paranormal abilities and phenomena, etc. These are generally not met with open, freely performed research and a desire to figure out what is going on. They are met with ridicule and disdain or simplistic, generally wrong 'explanations'. The point is, people should conduct legitimate tests and investigations and follow the evidence wherever it goes. But to a large degree that isn't what happens.
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ArtVandelay Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #191
257. Exactly. And if there is funding involved, and a career...
most scientists I know THINK one way, and yet know how they have to BEHAVE another way at work. You have to toe this tiny narrow line or you lose everything you have worked for. Every once in a while one blurts out what they really think in a book. Those are the best books! Books by James Lovelock or Lynn Margulis or Fritjof Capra should be required reading for a hs diploma.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #257
260. Academia is one of the most status obsessed fields I've ever witnessed
And it is sad. Everyone competing for tenure, publications, awards and grants is naturally going to devolve into an oppressive, socially conscious atmosphere sooner or later.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
55. My Geology professor believes a variation of this. He's a PhD, long-time professor
and a brilliant man, and he's spent his life studying ancient Earth via geology. His theory is a little different, but it goes something like this (and forgive me for not knowing all the details or messing some up--I've only heard this from him once :)

1. We are not the first high-tech human civilization. There was at least one before us, one that advanced much further than we've managed at this point. Those ancient, ancient humans were much less warlike than we are, because they had evolved past it as a society. Through means that we will likely never know, they had managed to progress to an organic society that wasted nothing and harnessed energy solely from the sun. They had technology and space travel abilities that we can only dream of right now.

2. At some point, those ancient humans perceived that some sort of cataclysm was about to occur on Earth--perhaps an enormous asteroid impact--and realized that their only chance for survival as a species involved sending space refugees out away from Earth. They went at nearly the speed of light on a carefully navigated voyage so that, after traveling for a set amount of time, they could turn back around and meet up with Earth again long after the cataclysm was over and Earth had become habitable again. Because of relativity, the decades they spent in space translated to millenia passing on Earth.

3. When the voyagers returned, Earth had practically been reset in terms of human life. What few humans were left alive were the descendants of the survivors--they were primitive, having lost all of their previous knowledge and progress in the thousands of years after the cataclysm. They had no knowledge of technology, and no history to help them regain what was lost; these primitive humans had no idea that their distant ancestors had ever been something more. If left alone, it could have taken them tens of thousands of years to gain all of that knowledge back.

4. The voyagers realized that to these simple humans, they would appear to be Gods, and that their technology would seem as magic. It would be all too easy to simply land and take over everything. However, the voyagers chose not to do that. Instead, they helped these primitive humans by giving them bits and pieces of technology that they wouldn't have otherwise had, knowing that the "thinkers" among these people would take this knowledge and build upon it to create an entirely new society. His examples were things like the Great Pyramids, some of the structures in South America, agricultural advancements, and cultural advancements like law, justice, etc.

He believes that pretty much all of the unexplained leaps and bounds that technology and culture took during the dawn of civilization are largely due to the help of these voyagers who came home. I really wish I knew more about what evidence he has for his beliefs and how he approaches the most obvious questions (like, Whatever happened to their spaceship(s)? Why haven't we found any remnants or artifacts of the previous high-tech society--or HAVE we, and we "little people" just haven't been privy to that information yet?) I'd like to just write him off as a loon, but it's not that easy--he's a deeply respected man in his field, he's 60+ years old, has had a PhD for longer than I've been alive, and he's not the least bit eccentric or strange as a person. He's actually a shockingly down-to-earth, reasonable guy who eschews suits and ties for flannel work shirts, work boots, and jeans. I guess he has some reason why he believes all of this--maybe he knows something that we don't?

Anyway, just thought the story might intrigue some of you.

:hi:
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. so he doesn't believe in evolutionary biology?nt
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #58
62. What does evolutionary biology have to do with this?
I'm just wondering how you made that connection, because I'm confused.

Don't misunderstand me--I don't claim to believe his story. It was just something he told our class on the very first day, when we were going over the Geology of the universe and Earth's creation. He got sidetracked and wound up on some tangent about ancient humans, and just kinda went from there.
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Muttocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. I'm having trouble envisioning a timeline for his supernatural creation story. nt
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #64
79. Again, I don't understand the conclusion you're drawing.
Although I admittedly don't know every facet of his ideas, what he said had nothing to do with "creation." He seems to think that the human refugees from the earlier society showed back up after a bottleneck cataclysmic event on Earth killed most of the previous human civilization and left only a scant few thousand descendants of survivors living primitively in the aftermath. It has nothing to do with how life on Earth began, or evolution, or any kind of "God." From conversations with him about other things, I know that he fully believes in the Big Bang, and in the evolutionary theory of life. This is his idea about the evolution of human culture and technology, not life.

:shrug:
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #79
82. Why is there no record of any such bottleneck?
Why is there no record of any such civilization? What he's saying sounds interesting, but is completely at odds with everything we know about the development of both humanity and human culture. "Creation" is indeed an appropriate word, for your professor's ideas are more appropriately categorized as latter-day pseudoscientific Creation myth than as scientific theory. His theory has far more in common with Noah and his Ark than with anything that might find its way to a peer-reviewed journal.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #82
86. Alas, I don't know.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 02:14 AM by Lyric
And so far as I understand it, it's not a scientific theory that he's researching or studying--he's a petroleum geologist, not an anthropologist or a biologist--so of course it's not peer-reviewed-journal worthy. But I also assume that, because he's not a blathering moron and is in fact a pretty educated, smart guy, he must have at least *some* evidence that led him to this idea.

As for the "no record" of any such bottleneck--IS there no record? I know there have been cataclysmic events in the past, but I have noooo idea about timelines or dates in terms of the ancient humans who were involved. I am no scientist--just a student who heard an interesting story and thought it worth repeating in the context of this thread.

Now I'd like to go e-mail him and ask him, as I hadn't really thought about any of this until this thread reminded me of it.

Edit: Sorry--he's a petroleum geologist. I went and looked it up to be sure--I knew it started with a "p", lol.
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #82
108. My understanding is that there is evidence for such a bottleneck
in the late Pleistocene. However, that certainly doesn't support this professor's theory, as there is no evidence in the archaeological record that such an advanced civilization existed. I think if there was such evidence, it would be hard to miss.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #108
145. From what I have read on the subject
the "bottle neck" occured around 72,000 years ago. This corresponds with the eruption of a huge volcano named Toba in Indonesia. One source estimates that the number of surviving Homo sapiens may have be reduced to as low as 1000 mating pairs.
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #108
165. Whaddya mean no evidence? I got PICS!!!
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #55
60. So your geology professor denies the fossil record? How strange. nt
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. Of course he doesn't.
Where on earth did you come up with THAT conclusion from what I said?

:shrug:
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #61
68. A few reasons.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 01:32 AM by Occam Bandage
1. Human civilization is an extinction event. This is not just at the modern level, but in fact at every level of human society. Wherever humans go, mass extinction follows. Yet it would seem this first human civilization did not manage to cause any such extinction event, despite the fact that their neolithic brothers did so wherever they went.

2. The spread of humanity can be traced genetically fairly well. Not perfectly, but to an extent that would be completely unimaginable one hundred years ago. Modern humanity appears to have spread relatively evenly, with no major gaps. So have all previous hominids. Your professor's Atlantean civilization would have to have arisen concurrent with and not preceding the spread of humanity.

3. There has been a relatively steady observed and recorded record of both human fossils and human artifacts with no significant gaps. Human artifacts and fossils are not found outside of their appropriate eras; we do not find Acheulean tools in remnants of Oldowan settlements, to say nothing of iPods and rocketships. In order for your professor's Atlantean civilization to fit with the fossil and artifact record, they would have to have gone on a comprehensive worldwide archeological dig, destroyed all traces of their evolutionary and anthropological history (while not touching those of their less-advanced brethren), and then left having put the entire Earth back in place. This is about as reasonable as "God created the world with dinosaur bones in it to test our faith."
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #68
84. There we go with the seamless version
I would liken it to the way the Bible stretches out the lifespans of the early characters to make them reach back to the beginning of time, or the way the Egyptians (and Irish and probably everyone else) screwed with their king lists .
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #84
87. Nobody would claim to know exactly when
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 02:17 AM by Occam Bandage
particular ages end and particular ages begin. Certainly there was a small degree (relatively speaking) of overlap, and when we're talking archaeology, well, for all we know there were intermediary ages and local dead-end successor ages we have yet to discover. Yet that does not change the fact that one does not find tools or fossils out of their appropriate age. One does not find rabbit fossils in the pre-Cambrian. One does not find stegosaur fossils in the Tertiary. One does not find neolithic tools in the paleolithic.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #84
126. So you're saying that archeologist and anthropologists are all lying to us?
That's your theory - that there's a world-wide conspiracy to alter what has really been found as artefacts and human remains for the last 100,000 years or so, just like the lifetimes in the Bible are made up?
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #126
158. Before or after they "all" stopped trying to reconcile their work with the Bible?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #158
161. The only relevance of the Bible is your use of an example of it as making things up
This isn't about the interaction of biblical tales with archaeology; it's about whether archaeologists are telling us the truth when they say what the development of humans has been. You have likened what they say to the tall tales in the Bible of people living for hundreds of years, ie lies.

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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #161
181. There you go making assumptions
disclaimer - I am a hardcore atheist, culturally christian, and borderline Buddhist who despises the Vatican and its influence

definition- when I refer to the bible, I refer to the entirety of the source materials, included and excluded, rather than the production model in the drawer.

Of course it's about the interaction of biblical "tales" with archaeology, every bit as much as it is about all human history and how it fits together. We don't know that the life spans of the early biblical characters are lies. If it is a lie, it's a rather odd one when you consider how they stair step the ages down to modern life spans over a long period of human development. The Bible is part of human history, it is not in the same category with Grimm's Fairytales. It is cohesive with the nearly universal folk histories that people came from the sky either as the source of human existence or interacting with humanity.

We're not necessarily looking for proof that the belief is accurate, we're looking for the basis of the belief.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #181
200. 1st assumption I make: humans are human
therefore, the long life spans claimed early in the bible are lies. The bible is indeed in the category of Grimms' Fairy Tales, when it comes to claims that Noah lived over 900 years and so on. It's only after the establishment of the state of Israel that the Bible can be taken seriously as 'history'; before that we read things like 'the sun stopped in the sky so a massacre could be completed'.

We are talking about reality, not one particular culture's creation myths. Therefore, what is said in the bible is irrelevant to this discussion of whether humans developed an advanced civilisation, left earth at near light speeds, and then returned after some catastrophe on earth, as put forward in reply #55.

Archaeology shows a gradual development of technology throughout (and before) the existence of Homo sapiens. There are no remains of civilisations from tens of thousands of years ago that have been found. This complete lack of tools, building, rubbish etc. that would be compatible with the claim of a technologically advanced society capable of near-light speed travel has to be compared to what has been actually found of tools, burials, rubbish piles etc., all of which point to gradually more complicated cultures in various places around the world. Or you have to believe that archaeologists are lying to us about what they've found.

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ChimpersMcSmirkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #55
67. You could also argue that larger leaps and bounds in technology have occured
in the last two hundred years. Electricity, radio, industrialization, air and space flight, harnessing the atom and computers are pretty big leaps. I don't believe anyone has cited aliens in the research needed for these achievements. I'm open to just about anything, but I need some verifiable evidence to actually believe it. All I've seen concerning the aliens visiting us are stories and artwork.
:shrug:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #55
168. I've been intrigue for some time now, thanks
:hi:
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #55
171. Except there is absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever
It makes for a nice story, and I'm sure that there are plenty of people out there who believe it. The only problem is there is absolutely no evidence to back it up whatsoever. We've found evidence of life going back hundreds of millions of years. Yet we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever of such an advanced civilization. No settlements, no cities, nothing. In order to have progressed to the point where they were capable of near-light speed, and to build a spacecraft capable of doing so, there should be at least some evidence of their existence - even if it was millions upon millions of years ago.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
75. There are many, many more than just these, of course
http://www.ufoartwork.com /

Image

Image

Image

I've seen several UFOs myself, and they were witnessed by others who were with me. There was no debate among us that they didn't belong here; we just don't have the kind of technology that can take an enormous silent vehicle from a dead standstill to unbelievable speeds...stop again and shoot off in another direction. It just isn't possible for us. The universe is old an vast; I suspect that there are many planets with advanced populations and some have figured out how to "fold' space or move between dimensions to get here and elsewhere. They don't seem determined to land and stick around, and that's just fine by me!
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ChimpersMcSmirkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #75
83. Hey, I hear ya, the universe is a big place and it would be an awful waste of space
if it's just us. I haven't seen any ufo's and I haven't seen any really convincing footage of ufo's that couldn't have other explanations. So, I'm a skeptic, even if I'd like to believe.

You'd think that some civilization would develop the tech to do some exploring for good or for bad. Maybe we are run of the mill and not very interesting. Maybe they're watching and not interfering. Maybe there is a brick wall and FTL isn't practically possible. Maybe civilizations have a tendency to snuff themselves out before they spread out. I dunno, but I wonder about it. Well, hopefully we'll start to get some answers soon.

http://kepler.nasa.gov/about/
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
77. Yes (nt)
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buzzycrumbhunger Donating Member (793 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
88. How come no one's mentioned Starseed yet?
Surely, I'm not the only Robert Anton Wilson fan here. For those who are unawares, this is what happens when mind-expanders get together. Whether you dismiss it as fertile imaginations or not, it is food for thought. FWIW, I don't think Wilson was ever sure himself if he was talking about actual "aliens" or just ourselves from the future. Personally, I don't think you can attribute these artifacts to anything else. Yes, people tend to categorize things in ways with which their minds can cope (and if they can't, that's where "magick" comes in), but UFOs, planes, and space helmets aren't exactly everyday items for Neanderthal, Egyptian, Mayan, et al, are they?

Sampled from here even though the spelling is atrocious because I'm too lazy to dig out my copy of Cosmic Trigger and copy it over myself:

Between July and August of 1973, Dr. Timothy Leary and a four-person telepathy team separated themselves from the walls of Folsom Prison, where Leary had been incarcerated for many years on a marijuanna possession charge. Leary at this time had spent many months under solitary confinement. Sources say that he emerged from his sensory deprivation still smiling. There was something in his mind telling him, a feeling--a vibration that he had to do something, prison or no prison.

In the middle of the Dog Days of Dog star Sirius, Leary, Leary's wife, Joanna Leary, a fellow prisoner Wayne Benner and a journalist had a collective hallucination, shared without the aid of psychedelics. What the seeker seeks, the prover prooves. And with a step into chapel perilous, in 19 stages/brusts came the following (summarized by Robert Anton Wilson) Starseed Transmission.

It is time for life on Earth to leave the planetary womb and learn to walk through the stars.

Life was seeded on your planet billions of years ago by nucleotide templates which contained the blueprint for gradual evolution through a sequence of biomechanical stages.

The goal of evolution is to produce nervous systems capable of communicating with and returning to the Galactic Network where we, your interstellar parents, await you.

Life on planet Earth has now reached this halfway point, established itself, and evolved through larval mutations and metamorphoses to the seven brain stages.

At this time the voyage home is possible.

Assemble the most intelligent, advanced, courageous of your species, divided equally between men and women. Let every race, nationality, and religion be represented.

You are about to discover the key to immortality in the chemical structure of the genetic code, within which you will find the scripture of life. The time has come for you to accept the responsibility of immortality. It is not necessary for you to die.

You will discover the key to enhanced intelligence within the chemistry of the nervous system. Certain chemicals, used wisely, will enable your nervous system to decipher the genetic code.

All life on your planet is a unity. All life must come home.

Total freedom, responsibility and interspecies harmony will make the voyage possible. You must transcend larval identities of race. culture and nationality. Your only allegiance is to life. The only way you will survive is to make the voyage home.

The Japanese people are the most advanced race on your planet and will give protection to the company.

We are sending a comet to your solar system as a sign that the time has come to look to the stars.

When you arrive back home you will be given new instructions and powers. Your sperm ship is the flower of terrestrial life. As soona s the company is formed and the voyage begun, war, poverty, hatred, fear will disappear from your planet and the most ancient prophecies and celestial visions will be realize.

Mutate!

Come home in glory.


Personally, I agree that there is a basic human drive to alter our consciousness, with evolution as the goal. Sadly, most of us fuck it up so badly because we approach it in the wrong way, as recreation or coping mechanism.

Is this is where someone hijacks the thread to make 2012 predictions? :evilgrin:
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
89. There's no proof against it, but do realize how unlikely this is?

Many things that you put up there have terrestrial explanations that are far more likely, I mean we're talking about tens of thousands of times more likely. Such as what you've shown here, the "mechanical computer" shaped like a wheel, called the "Antikythera Mechanism" might have been more technologically advanced for its time, but it is far, far less advanced than the technology of a race that could reach our earth from the distances you're talking about. In fact, that device is far less advanced than our technology. It's more like something you would have found in the 19th century Western Civilization, or in China a thousand years sooner than that. In my opinion, calling it a computer is almost as inaccurate as calling Stonehenge one.

Now, if want to be informed of things that science really cannot explain, you could look at this link-- which leads to a comedy website, but the strange things that they write about here are totally 100 percent true and do defy scientific explanation:

http://www.cracked.com/article_16871_6-insane-discoveri...


If you look at history, there have been flashes of amazing innovation, but the problem has always been communicating them to successive generations that might improve on them, preserving knowledge of them even through disasters and warfare. We have perfected that, so humankind has been able not to build on its previous advancements. Such as a wagon wheel 19th century gets improved to become a metal car wheel, with machined rim and think rubber tire inflated with air.

For the artwork and hieroglyphics you talk about, they might superficially resemble what we think of flying machines or spacesuits, but the suit depicted with the "bubble" over the head looks more primitive than a 19th century deep sea diving suit. The "hole" in the chest looks like just a hole-- like the persons heart was removed. The bubble over his head looks like it could be the same idea as an aura used in Christian art, which other cultures could have easily thought up too. Or, it could have been an attempt to illustrated color with line alone-- which would would mean that the face was discolored. The bloated appearance might be the bloating of the corpse. Maybe the cord leading to him has strangled him. In fact the whole thing looks like it could be far more morbid than what you think.

The gold object that strongly resembles an airplane (if it's not a stylized fish decorated) not only wouldn't have worked as such, but it looks at most like planes designed in World War II. Again, not a technology that would be demonstrated by beings capable of spanning trillions of miles-- and surviving it.

In the crucifixion scene, the "ships" depicted in the aerial duel probably weren't what we would think of as ships. Aerial warfare was not an unknown concept, and if you read some of the gnostic Gospel of St. Peter, you'll find that aerial duel takes place between Jesus and Judas. If those are supposed to be actual ships, they would have looked stupid in a 1950s B-Movie science fiction. If you ask me, those two "pilots" look like they are depicted as being in comets. One holds something the other wants. And it would have been an easy step to imagine beings occupying comets.

What I'm trying to say at length here, is that if you take the aliens out of the equation, human beings could have made the same pictures, the same designs, the same writings depicted here. We know that human beings were around in large numbers. We don't know if aliens were present at all-- and so nothing depicted here can be cited as evidence that ancient astronauts were ever here.

There is one other thing I'll point out. If aliens had come up with all of these great ideas, why could they come up with them and not us?

None of this discounts the possibility of aliens visiting us. However, I myself am going to stick with the explanation that they haven't. The evidence you've given here doesn't even slightly sway me to believing that did, but on the Cracked website, those Baigong pipes or those smooth granite balls found all over Costa Rica are not things lend themselves to mundane explanations. They aren't even things that I can imagine human beings would ever do. Still, traveling light years to create them seems like a lot of effort too . . .
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #89
172. That first "mystery" reminds me of the ancient hieroglyphics
I've read that the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs were considered to be untranslatable until the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, which had a text written in hieroglyphs, Greek, and some other language (can't remember exactly which one it was).
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #172
201. The Rosetta stone was written in hiegoglyphs, Greek and heiratic writing
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 11:49 AM by bklyncowgirl
Hieratic was the everyday text used by the Egyptians and was derived from the hieroglyphs. It was much simpler to write. The hieroglyphs were reserved for ceremonial and monumental purposes.

Here's another example. A few years ago, archaeologists and philologists, working with descendants of the Maya, broke the code to the Mayan hieroglyphs. It's taken a great deal of the mystery out of that civilization.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
91. Here's a thought.
If an advanced culture was trying to explain the concept of disease to another, far less advanced culture, might they not explain that they were caused by "invisible entities" that the less advanced culture might then translate to "demons?"

Personally I don't claim to no the answer to this question, but from my perspective it's certainly possible. Makes more sense than "supernatural" deities, does it not?
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #91
97. Bizarrely enough,
Europe has been able to explain germ theory to the rest of the world without the rest of the world coming to the conclusion that white folk are infested with blood demons. Humans are pretty good at learning and transmitting information. I don't think a society even more advanced, with plenty of time on its hands (as evidenced by the fact that it waited at minimum centuries to get here), would encounter significantly greater problems explaining itself than Anton von Leeuwenhoek did.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #97
101. We can't even explain the theory of evolution to people who've shared our culture
and upbringing all their lives and you think we can teach a member of a stone age culture about germ theory and expect them to pass it along to future generations without it being mucked up beyond all recognition along the way? You can't possibly be serious.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #91
129. If I were trying to explain disease from bacteria and viruses, I'd say
"You know fleas? Really small, huh? You have to get really close to see them. Well, these other creatures are even smaller than that! So small, we can't see them with our eyes (just like someone with bad eyesight might never be able to see a flea). And they get into you, and feed on you, just like ticks or tapeworms. So wash your hands".

No 'demon' needed.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
104. It saddens me that any adult could believe this horseshit.
I know, I know...
I only clicked on the thread because I thought it was a joke. I'll go quietly now.

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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. It saddens me that some adults can be so closed-minded on this subject.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #106
109. It's because
they do not have the ability to see beyond their own ass.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #109
177. Do you blindly accept the existence of ghosts, Bigfoot, Loch Ness Monster, and the Jersey Devil?
Or what about dinosaurs in the Congo? Or werewolves? Or real life vampires?

Because there are PLENTY of adults - some with college degrees - who believe in EACH of these things, and lots more.

But we're "close-minded" because we refuse to blindly believe in any of these things without any serious evidence? We're supposed to just accept whatever evidence the believers hand us, regardless of how well it holds up under scientific scrutiny?
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #106
110. All of those images can be explained using much more down-to-earth iconographical understanding.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #106
187. Have you read the refutation of von Daniken's work?

Why not?

Is it because you have a closed mind?
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #106
198. I'm open to the possibility but the evidence presented is essentially crap.
Not that this means it didn't happen.

Let me put it this way. Many people believe that a man named Jesus existed. Some of these people believe that when Jesus died his image was imprinted on his shroud which is kept in a cathedral in Turin. Scientific tests on the Shroud of Turin, however, pretty much conclude that it was a very skillful forgery probably done in the 15th Century.

Should the fact that the Shroud of Turin turned out to be a fake deter anyone from believing in Jesus. Does this bolster the claims of those who claim that Jesus was a myth? Of course not. It simply means some Bishop of other got scammed back in the 1400s. It has no bearing whatsoever on the existance of Jesus.

Same thing goes for UFOs.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:20 AM
Response to Original message
111. I am confident that there is intelligent life out there...
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 05:23 AM by and-justice-for-all
Space is too big and the opportunities for intelligent life elsewhere is to great.

But a majority of those things in ancient art, are most likely Comets and Meteors.
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oxygen destroyer Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
113. I have a background in science too.
Christian science.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #113
116. That means
you are.....
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oxygen destroyer Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #116
124. Off my meds
That's what it means :crazy:
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ForeverWonderful Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:48 AM
Response to Original message
115. Wow
The 2000 year old computer is amazing. With camofluage.
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ForeverWonderful Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
118. Bravo!
I get it.... Thanks for being open minded.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:55 AM
Response to Original message
119. Yes. Somebody had to keep the dolphins entertained 30 million years ago.
:)

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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
122. I follow Michael Tsarion's idea (based on Sitchen, among others) that we have been
"interfered" with. As Tsarion says, "Our world has not been explained properly."
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
123. "Intelligent" life wouldn't visit a planet with primitive sentient
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 06:06 AM by Norrin Radd
beings and fuck with their minds. Perhaps "asshole," "prankster" life, but not "intelligent." We are still waiting for the intelligent, wise, and compassionate alien visitors who won't play games with revealing themselves.
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yy4me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
127. Billions of planets in our solar system, billions of solar systems,
how could we be so conceited or deluded to believe we are the only form of like out there. Not to imply that everything that could exist looks like us, any possible like forms could be unrecognizable to we humans. I bet all laws of probability are on the side that states that we are lot alone.

Maybe someone or something did spend time with us years ago and finally figured out that we were not advanced enough to bother with. Then again, maybe we are their descendants. Until we meet someone from the beyond, I will keep an open mind. I hope whoever is out there has evolved to a point where wars, hunger, sickness and fear are eradicated and that life is peaceful for them. And the astrolabe in the picture is, I believe, ancient Greek, I believe found in the Mediterranean and would postdate the other drawings and artifacts. It was an ocean navigation tool. Advanced for the time but very primitive by todays standards.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #127
185. There is a HUGE difference between believing in aliens, and believing that they're visiting Earth
I firmly accept that there are probably billions of planets that contain life throughout our galaxy, and trillions throughout the universe. However, the further you go up the evolutionary ladder, those numbers begin to plummet.

Even if you accept that there are probably a few thousand planets in this galaxy that have advanced civilizations, they're going to be separated from each other by incredibly vast distances. And supposing that even if a few hundred of these civilizations DID possess the technology to travel faster than light (which is still debatable), they would still have to have a REASON to visit our planet. Considering that we had no advanced civilization of our own, nobody sending out radio waves, it does seem hard to comprehend what would attract a distant civilization to our solar system.

I'm not saying that it's impossible that it's happened - but there just isn't any solid evidence.
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republicansarewhores Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
128. They did.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 06:33 AM by republicansarewhores
It was all revealed on the final episode of Sci-Fi's "Battlestar Galactica" last month :silly:

RAW

EDITED: DAMN! You guys beat me to the Galactica jokes already!
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
131. I Think It's Most Likely Arrogance
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 07:04 AM by NashVegas
I wouldn't rule out visitors, entirely, but:

I think a huge contingent of the "aliens came down and helped advance our race" mentality comes from a group of people living in disbelief that our ancestors could figure out how to get shit done without a pre-formed strategy, a spreadsheet, a calculator, and a list of "cheats."

I met this attitude all the time some years ago when I was online gaming, where some players would go totally by instinct while others had to have a planned strategy. When a strat player found out something an instinct player was doing successfully that the strat player had never heard of or imagined possible, the first thing out of their ICQ text: "you got lucky. You REALLY got lucky." Then they're off to their spreadsheets to see how they can make it work for their strats.

Basically, they've just exchanged one god ("Jehovah") for another they can define for themselves ("Space alien").

Does it never occur to you that artists and writers use their own imaginations to conjure images of possibilities, and scientists are taking these ideas and running with them?

Do you think Leonardo DaVinci was an alien? History says otherwise, and yet he conceived the helicopter centuries before we had the technology to build one.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
134. That first one looks like a "space suit" from the 60's.
Cool
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Algorem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
135. ancient history?they just brought susan boyle here to save us all
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
136. The underlying assumption is that human beings are too dumb to invent anything on their own.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 07:13 AM by bklyncowgirl
This is going to be long because this stuff really pisses me off.

I've always hated these space alien theories because they tend to assume that we human beings were too dumb to invent anything on our own and that little brown people in particular could never have possibly done things like build pyramids and cities and create art that looks different from what we understand as art. We needed help from outer space or maybe from Atlantis (defined as some enlightened humans who learned civilization from space aliens--I don't even want to get into the racial aspects of this--it's pretty ugly even when, as some authors have done--you make the Atlanteans out to be black people).

That corroded mechanism you show is believed to be an early form of computing device. Some have linked it to the great Greek mathemetician Archimedes. Archimedes is a well documented historical figure. He was also a genius--a human genius. If Archimedes didn't invent this thing than someone else who didn't have the good press that Archimedes did--or who was not as lucky as Archimedes in having his reputation survive into modern times--did.

That Eyptian inscription has meaning--and it ain't some guy in a silver ship came down from the clouds. Heiroglyphics are a complex form of writing using simplified pictures. Some of those pictures don't make any sense to someone who can't read that language but they do convey meaning to those who can. I'm not an Egyptologist. I can't read heiroglyphics, but there are plenty of people who can AND who could tell you what that inscription means.

The Egyptians were a literate people. Excavations withing the past 20 years or so have cast considerable light on how the pyramids were built and also who built them. There's a cemetary near the great pyramid filled with the bodies of workers who died while working on Pharoah's constructions. Being buried in the shadow of the pyramid was an honor. Records of their payment have survived as have the names of the gangs they were formed into to haul the stone. (My personal favorite is the "King Khufu is drunk" gang) There are even records of workers in later times walking out on strike when they did not get paid on time. This research gives us a real window into the ancient world and is far more exciting than any speculation about space aliens.

Surviving records have left many gaps in exactly HOW the Egyptians put the heavy stone blocks in place leaving plenty of room for the imagination. We know, for example, how the Egyptians moved obelisks. Queen Hatshepsut was thoughtful enough to leave us a rather rare depiction of obelisks being brought down the Nile. They lie end to end on a great big barge that is being towed--or rather guided, they were floating downriver--by lots of small boats. We don't know exactly how the great queen's engineers managed to set these 97 or so foot monsters up. Neither she nor anyone else thought to put this in a nice indestructable stone inscription. It was not a mystery at the time, of course. Construction officials and architects underwent years of apprenticeship and of course, the guy in charge, generally believed to have been a man named Senenmut (another human genius who may or may not been the queen's lover) could have drawn on the records in the temple libraries to see how his ancestors did it--or something close to it because these were the largest obelisks ever quarried at the time.

Gee, maybe Senenmut used magnetic levitation taught to him by some space alien to raise those obelisks--the guy did have a star chart in his tomb. Of course if I knew how to raise 97 foot obelisks by magnetic levitation, I'd probably be able to figure out a much cooler way of getting them to the temple than putting the damn things on a great big barge and towing them down the Nile with rowboats. Or Maybe he was just really good at using the relatively simple tools that he had available to use.

I'm concentrating on the Greek and Egyptian things here bacause I know a bit about these cultures and because those cultures can talk to us directly.

I'm pretty sure that someone who's well versed in Medieval iconography could explain those little guys in the Jetsons space ships. I don't know diddly squat about what may be Austrailian aborigine rock paintings but they sure look like guys in space suits to me. Of course someone from the culture that produced them might be able to tell a different story--who knows.

You're doing us poor humans an insult by believing this stuff. You know--there was this guy back in the 15th century who drew pictures of flying machings. His name was Leonardo da Vinci. Do you think, maybe, Leo was a space alien?
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #136
138. Great Minds ...
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 07:13 AM by NashVegas
See #131

:)
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #138
140. I didn't see your Da Vinci line before I wrote mine--really
I guess we were sort of on the same wavelength.

My point is that if we don't understand something we tend to fill in the blanks from our own experiences and ideas. Most people are going to thing that an idea that Leonardo was an alien is laughable. That's because most of us know who Leonardo was and understand at least a little about the cultural context that he lived and worked in.

We moderns use complex machines to do what we want to do. The idea that ancient people used ropes and levers and lots and lots of men and animals to create these massive works like the pyramids or stonehenge is very foreign to us. It's easier to believe in aliens.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #140
141. I Updated
And it went through the exact same minute, haha.

The bubble mask/suit/hoses get-up is also something someone could have conceived as a primitive wetsuit/diving helmet.

Scientists go through a lot of indoctrination. Have you ever seen the movie Longitude? It tells the story of John Harrison's sea clocks and how he, a simple mechanic, was treated by the "learned" men in the race to come up with an accurate way of calculating longitude. Just how fictionalized it is, can't say, but I know I've seen it repeated over and over.
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feslen Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #138
142. re: here's a double edged question...just out of pure observation
Why are there skeptics about UFOs, aliens etc....but most people accept God and his teachings?

There's little "true proof" of either existence except faith and personal experiences in both.


Religious people believe in Jesus and the other prophets as thoroughly, faithfully as UFO believers that aliens crashed in Roswell.

I find both subjects utterly fascinating, as I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I don't think you can dismiss both sides just because you've never experienced it for yourself, though admittedly I tend to lean toward the UFO/alien side, but I don't sneer at the religious aspect either.
There are too many unexplained, unknown things about life, the universe, death...

I just don't buy the Roswell incident, but I DO think we're not alone...it would be a sad waste of space if we are. I'd hate to think our Earth is the only planet capable of supporting life and us humans are the only "intelligent" beings in the universe.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #142
144. Same Reason There Are
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 07:47 AM by NashVegas
People who don't believe in a god, but think aliens gave us the technology to build the pyramids. They can't conceive someone living without our modern technologies were able to accomplish anything using simple, almost instinctual, knowledge from observation of nature.

Look at the culinary arts. Whothefuck ever could have come up with the thought: "hey, if I mix flour and a little liquid fat, and if I stir it over a fire for ten minutes, it will go from being blonde to dark, thick to thin, and if I carefully fold it into animal juices, I'll have gravy!"

But somehow, someone did get us to that concept. Without a thermometer, without a Wolfgang Puck saucepan or an Aga Cooker, they did it. 500 years ago. And "Scientists" want to take that kind of innovation out of the hands of common cooks and replace it with patented methods.

If I had to choose between a god and the aliens, I choose the god (as long as it's not Calvin's which is, itself, a creation of hyper-rationalization), because there must be room for irrationality, illogic, and emotionalism in our world to balance out the damage done by those who can rationalize de-humanizing hundreds of thousands of people.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #142
153. I don't think we're alone either but until someone can come up with uambigious proof I'll pass
Religion is a matter of faith not reason--I didn't make that up--I believe it was St. Thomas Aquinas. I may believe that there is a higher intelligence that created the universe. I may believe that there is live on other planets--but I can't proove it.

I just can't believe in the UFO thing because so much of the "proof" that UFOlogists like Von Daniegan (probably murdered that name) the author of "Chariots of the Gods" which started this whole thing, present proof that in the end can easily be dismissed. I once talked with a guy who found the ancient Egyptian parts of Von Daniegan's hypothesis absolutely convincing but he thought that the author's ideas on an ancient batter presented in the book were absolutely nuts--he knew his chemistry. I had to laugh because that part of the book actually had me saying, hmmm, maybe he's got something there. Of course I failed chemistry in college and got "A"s in history. When I pointed out what's known about the Egyptian culture--and this was quite a long time ago--there's much more out there now--he had to agree that maybe he was wrong.

Yup to us those heiroglyphs look sure like spaceships. To the Egyptians they represented both a concrete item, such as an animal or plant, and a sound. If you don't look at the original context you're not going to understand the thing and you'll fill in the blanks.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #136
146. not at all.
"The underlying assumption is that human beings are too dumb to invent anything on their own."

that's not the underlying assumption at all. nobody is claiming that human beings are too dumb to invent "anything"- only that it's very possible that they might have come in contact with things that they couldn't explain fully themselves- the 'spaceships' of ezekial, for instance. and while davinci may have 'invented' the helicopter- his drawings of one don't look a whole lot like the ones you see in service today. or anytime. and for all his ingenuity- most of his 'advanced' machines are human-powered.

as for raising the obelisks- the movie 'the ten commandments' actually has a scene involving that exact maneuver- and while they were completely wrong about the whole jewish slave aspect of the building- the way that the showed the obelisks being raised seems completely feasible.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #146
157. Yes, extraterrestrial contact was possible but my argument is with the evidence presented.
I may believe in God, I may believe in the Bible but if you're going to try and sell me a chunk of wood found on Mount Ararat and tell me it's a piece of Noah's Ark I'm going to challange you.

My point is that modern humans come into contact with things that THEY don't understand such as religious expression in other cultures, especially ones which cannot explain to us what these things mean to them, and we put our own interpretation on them. Scientists are not excluded.

One of my archaeology teachers once told a story about how he was working on some ambigiously shaped clay forms from Mesopotamia--generally believed to have been cult objects--observe the bull horn shape--and much discussed as such in the archaeological world. An Iraqi guy who was working with him took a look at his collection and said. "Oh grate racks--you mean they used them back in ancient times." My professor went out into a local village and sure enough found the local people using the same exact clay forms to hold up their pots over an open fire.

His resulting paper splattered egg over quite a few scholarly faces.

The raising of the obelisks was probably very slow and unspectacular to watch. Hauling them down the Nile was something large numbers of people saw. The interesting fact is that Hatshepsut was the only Pharoah to depict this sort of thing. As a woman, she had something to prove. She also gave great prominence to her trading expedition to Punt. This may have been her way of saying--YES WE CAN! At any rate, if old Hattie hadn't decided to put this on the walls of her temple we would be still arguing about how it was done--and probably invoking space aliens.
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #136
170. And if you are ethnic and had a great civilization, of course you had alien help!
Everyone knows the natives are too damn dumb to raise a pyramid or erect an obelisk by themselves. Hell, how many people on this thread could build a skyscraper by themselves? No, we wait for smart aliens to do it for us.

But don't forget that aliens aint always so smart either. The reptilian royals in England for example! ;)
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #170
180. Well there you go. It also doesn't hurt to have a language that no one can read
Isn't it interesting that the civilizations that Eric Von Daneikan and his followers say were influenced by space aliens were for the most part those inhabited by little brown people.

The only European cultures that these guys seem to think needed extraterrestrial help were the prehistoric people who constructed Stonehenge and megalithic monuments like the New Grange tombs in Ireland (Hey those were MY ancestors!). The Greeks, the Romans and the medieval Europeans also built massive monuments using simple technology but of course THEY didn't need aliens.

The Greeks and Romans were literate and of course we can read their languages so that does take away some of the mystery. The Egyptians were literate also and left records that indicate when things like the pyramids were built and why.

Now why would a European think that Egyptians would be incapable of doing the sort of things they did on their own?


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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #136
208. Oh c'mon...
most of the people currently living on this planet ARE too dumb to invent anything.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #208
234. ...and probably most of the people living back then were also none too bright.
But then there were the smart ones, the creative thinkers, a distinct minority but turn them loose in the right time and place and they can change the world.

Isn't that far more exciting than space aliens?
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Cruzan Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
148. Your 2000 year old "mechanical computer"
is more commonly referred to as the Antikythera mechanism. Wikipedia has a very detailed article on it ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism ), though for some reason they fail to mention any theories regarding aid from extraterrestrials in its construction.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
149. Are there any banjos in the hieroglyphs ?
:)
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #149
197. The articles make the claim that they're INTELLIGENT species...
so, no, no banjos or rednecks either...
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #197
202. I have to assume
you play guitar and so consider banjos to be primitive weapons of mass ear destruction.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #202
222. it's just that they have a BAD press nowadays...
I used to play piano - haven't touched one since 1972 or so - I used to be pretty good - but it takes practice practice practice and I haven't done that for quite some time now - so I stop...
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #222
228. Probably due to the bluegrass crowd
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 02:57 PM by dipsydoodle
wheras I only like old time american string music especially 20's / 30's stuff. Apart from that I don't play anyway - just collect, got 100 or so.

Maybe this will inspire you to start playing again : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef3XZtJoJCM&feature=rela... that's a current favorite because I can dance to it. I could've used a Basie track but quite often he really just tinkled inbetween reading the paper and having a drink.......lol.

edit - found a better version
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #228
265. Good time to mention Bla Fleck and the Flecktones' - Flight of the Cosmic Hippo & UFO Tofu.
Frontman Bla Fleck plays acoustic and electric banjos, mixing a bluegrass and folk sound into a modern improvisational style. Fleck has received Grammy nominations for performances in the jazz, bluegrass, pop, spoken word, contemporary Christian, gospel, classical, and country categories. To date, they are the only artist to receive nominations in as many diverse categories.

Brothers Victor Wooten and Roy "Future Man" Wooten form the rhythm section. Victor Wooten is widely lauded in jazz and bass-playing circles for his sometimes hyperkinetic slap and pop technique on bass guitar, and many consider him the leading bass virtuoso in music today. Future Man plays percussion using the Synthaxe Drumitar, a MIDI controller of his own invention shaped like a guitar, as well as electric and acoustic kit drums and other percussion.

Membership in the Flecktones has changed little since the band released its eponymous first album. Harmonica and keyboard player Howard Levy appeared on the Flecktones' first three albums. After Levy's departure, Fleck and the Wooten Brothers regrouped on the album Three Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, the title a reference to Ken Kesey's novel, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Saxophonist Jeff Coffin joined the band beginning with the album Left of Cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9la_Fleck_and_the_Fl...

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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #265
270. Saw him at Bath Banjo Festival - UK
a few years back.

Saw Bill Keith too who proved that beyond doubt that Old Joe Clark is lifted straight from Bach's or Beethoven's English Suite - don't recall which :)
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
151. Thank you
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SlingBlade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
152. Yes They Did !
Two groups of aliens visited earth. One group, the good progressives and the other group
the evil neo-cons.

And on it goes
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
162. Or what if it us traveling back in time..or a future us..
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #162
194. thats what ive always thought
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 11:28 AM by iamthebandfanman
and the fact they tend to do 'experiments' that involve sexuality, and since there are no signs of any sexual organs from eye witness accounts...

it would seem perhaps they are trying to use us as a means to continue reproduction?
i mean, even with sophisticated means to replicate/clone theyd run outa DNA eventually right?

its possible that a life form can evolve to the point of being unable to reproduce...
and if we are just an earlier version of them, wed be the most likely candidate for such a trial...

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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #194
204. "its possible that a life form can evolve to the point of being unable to reproduce": No.
By definition. Evolution is about the natural selection of genes better able to reproduce.

Your only possible scenario would have to be a "disease hits all of humanity, immediately wiping out the whole species' ability to reproduce". And if that happened, and they had the ability to travel in time, why bother coming back to now for cloak and dagger stuff? Why not just travel to a few weeks before the disease spread, and bring forward some people who'll understand an explanation of what's going on?
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edhopper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
164. Really?
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 10:17 AM by edhopper
People still buy into this crap? Excuse me while I take my Unicorn for a ride.
When I was 12 I read "A Princess of Mars", I'm 53 and don't believe there's an ancient civilization on Mars with four armed martian warriors.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
166. Mysterious Origins of Man



Mysterious Origins of Man #1 - Bonus Material: Hancock & Bauval
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-15677329717378...


Mysterious Origins of Man #2 - Bonus Material: Cremo & Thompson
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-63191823266725...


Mysterious Origins of Man #3 - Jurassic Art
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=128695664649499...
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #166
203. Ta for those links
:hi:
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
169. Is modern science-fiction proof that aliens are visiting humans nowadays
Would future archaeologists look at such works as "War of the Worlds", "Independence Day", and "Star Trek" and infer that humans had routine contact with aliens during the 20th and 21st centuries?

I don't know why it's so hard to accept that maybe ancient civilizations had just as much of an imagination as we do today. The concept of beings coming from the sky isn't exactly a new concept for humanity.
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ChimpersMcSmirkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #169
183. Science fiction/fantasy has been around a long time.
Early elements of science fiction are also found in ancient Indian epics such as the Ramayana, which had mythical Vimana flying machines that were able to fly within the Earth's atmosphere, and able to travel into space and travel submerged under water.

Several stories within the One Thousand and One Nights (Arabian Nights) also feature science fiction elements. One example is "The Adventures of Bulukiya", where the protagonist Bulukiya's quest for the herb of immortality leads him to explore the seas, journey to the Garden of Eden and to Jahannam, and travel across the cosmos to different worlds much larger than his own world, anticipating elements of galactic science fiction;<8> along the way, he encounters societies of jinns,<9> mermaids, talking serpents, talking trees, and other forms of life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_fiction
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
175. von Daniken Was A Nordic Racist Who Thought Brown People Were Stupid

I read that book when I was in elementary school too.

By any chance, did you read this one soon after:

http://www.amazon.com/Crash-Go-Chariots-Clifford-Wilson...



I'll bet you didn't.

And I'll bet you won't, because people who hang onto doctrinal beliefs like the von Daniken stuff are typically closed minded and don't want to know the other side.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #175
209. doctrinal beliefs, yea kinda like the Christian religion and such, huh?
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
179. I like this youtube video on alien implants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ8wTq3HcDk

A physician named Roger Leir claims to have removed a variety of alien implants from people.

In that video he talks about how the implant didn't leave marks showing how it got inside the body, didn't cause an inflammatory response in the soft tissue and it seems to be connected to the patients nerve endings (I'm not sure if there was 2 way communication or not between the implant and the patients neurons).

He had the implant sent off to UCSD and Los Alamos for elemental testing and they found it was made with elements that are very hard to come by on earth. UCSD claimed it was 'extraterrestrial' because the elements involved (they didn't say what elements those were, I'm guessing iridium or something along those lines) are rare on earth. Tests using a scanning electron microscope supposedly found it was a manufactured device, not a 'rock'.

So all in all pretty interesting stuff that deserves further research. I hope it isn't a hoax, if not it really needs to be looked into.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
188. If they did, those pics aren't any indication of it.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
206. Have you considered that ancient civilizations might have developed science fiction?
It's a far simpler explanation that doesn't lead to the contradictions of extraterrstrial visitors and ancient astronauts.

--imm
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
207. yes clearly aliens visited earth because we all know
tha no one invented "imagination" or hallucinogenic drugs or anything like that back then.Or had fevers or delusions or anything like that! Plus we all know that since they understood EVERYTHING they saw no exaggeration or misinterpretation was posssible.
Hooray for pseudocarchaeology...
This whole "It looks weird it must be aliens" is some of the most intellectually lazy shit I have ever come accross.
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gulfcoastliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
211. Sure seems likely. I think they did.
Funny how some people are so desperate to "prove" wrong anything to do with UFOs and aliens.
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ChimpersMcSmirkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #211
217. Not at all, It's the proponents of these ideas that must prove to us that they are "right".
That's the way scientific debate works. Someone proposes an idea with some evidence to support it, everyone else tries to rip it apart if they can. If they can't, then maybe there is something to it.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
213. The first image reminds me of "The Gimp" in "Pulp fiction."
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
216. Ancient Robots
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 12:59 PM by seemslikeadream
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
218. actually, we're all aliens
see, the Earth is an experimental ground, like the UN, An experiment where we all get together to see if we can co-exist. Unfortunately, the experiment isn't working. I'm waiting---come on Scotty, beam me up. Hello, Scotty abort the mission, it's not working!!!! ;-)
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OxQQme Donating Member (694 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #218
227. Sometimes I wonder
what's on the bottom-side of this flat earth.

Hanging ten toes over the edge as it surfs the stars.

Jonathan Livingston Seagull was a great book about breaking free.

Does anybody here believe that the first Bronze recipe was discovered accidentally?

Or that Major cultural temples fashioned to revere the 'gods/goddesses' were located right smack on the 30th parallel line ages before we humans could have envisioned such a delineation of the globe we live upon?

Or that earth-humans had the skills and equipment to build such as the 'Temple Mount', (a perfectly flat landing/takeoff pad) that all the major religions claim as the source point of their beliefs?
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
219. I read it when I was twelve too, and even then I could see that his arguments
had holes in them a mile wide.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #219
220. I read the bible at 12 also and found many holes
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #220
231. I scribbled little defacements in a Bible when I was twelve.
:evilgrin:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #231
242. OMFG
:evilgrin:
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #220
237. Perfect analogy...
the Bible and Von Daniken are both fiction.

Sid
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #237
240. Sid I thought you might find this interesting
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ohheckyeah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
221. Or maybe
sometime in our future we develop the ability to go back to the past. :-)
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
229. Elvis must be older than he looks. But, the first picture does bear a resemblance to him.
But, aliens in the form of bacteria or spores, may have...minus the spaceships.
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ArbustoBuster Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
230. Short answer, No.
Long answer, Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
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Downtown Hound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
235. I've seen a UFO
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 06:48 PM by Downtown Hound
A boomerang craft with electric lights on the bottom that moved extremely fast and made no noise. That exact same craft has pictures and other eyewitness sightings all over the web. Just google boomerang ufo and you'll get tons of hits.

To answer your question, I believe that as a planet we've been visited all throughout our history and probably even long before we appeared by beings not from this world. What they're doing, what they want, why they don't announce their presence, what they are and where they're from, I have no idea.
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livetohike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
236. I've seen some great petroglyphs while hiking in Utah.....
It's amazing. Thanks for posting these :-).
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
238. ...


Sid
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
239. S.B aliens are visiting GD right now. Actually they have invaded GD.
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chrisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
241. Rational explainations for all -
#1 is a human. 2 arms, 2 legs.
#2 probably just reflects the fact that people always wanted to fly. #3 same.
#4 A riverbed? That's what I see. The dots are the river, and the flying saucer is just land with a hill.
#5 is a fish.
#6 Not sure.
#7 looks like a poor hoax.
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Kazak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
246. I'm not exactly in the absolutely no catagory, but...
I see no reason why humans couldn't've evolved independently without any magical/advanced intervention whatsoever. Also, how any alien beings could traverse the time/space it would require is quite a mystery to me.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
247. LOL! What An Idiotic Assertion
Talk about jumping to inane conclusions based on zero evidence.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
250. The drake equation, enough said
ok a little more, and what always intrigues me... WHY?

Pets in somebody's galactic schedule or biology experiment? The tour trip, or the anthropology class?

Of course for the last five years I have been playing with this in fiction...

Suffice it to say that in the real world, not in the fictional world I write in, the question WHY still needs to be answered, assuming we were indeed visited by aliens, or future humans, or what have you?

Humans would be easier to answer.

That said, Chariots of the Gods has way, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart, WAAAAYYYYYY too many holes

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brooklynite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
251. I don't object to the premise...
...but you'll probably get a better response if you offer some perspective of your own.
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
253. One things for certain....we don't know what they know n/t
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burning rain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
258. I'm an atheist too, and extremely sceptical on this.
I will pray to Bertrand Russell to deliver you from this superstition, as I see it.
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doctor jazz Donating Member (474 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
259. I'm a skeptical cynic generally but I've seen enough weird stuff around the world
to make me think it's a definite possibility. One thing that does 'bother' me is how recorded history arose so seemingly abruptly although that may well be simply due to the normal perceived contraction of time as it diverges from the present.
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AbbeyRoad Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
261. Maybe in our human future we'll develop the ability to time travel
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 11:27 PM by AbbeyRoad
and those are depictions of us returning to visit ancient civilizations.

It would be our future and our past although we would have no current recollection.

:evilgrin:
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sfpcjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
266. Sure, why not?
If a civilization is a few hundred to thousands of years more advanced than earth all they need are a couple of things: 1) a large array telescope on the order of one to a few earth diameters. This allows them to accurately image planets like ours and see the oceans, and 2) a means of stellar warp drive to shorten the distance to us.

They probably have both of those if they are so advanced. Welcome to earth, advanced beings!
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BelgianMadCow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:07 AM
Response to Original message
268. ask the ant if it believes in humongous beings squashing them beneath their feet
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 04:08 AM by BelgianMadCow
I am humble enough to not pretend knowing.

The universe is finite - what is outside of it then?
The universe is infinte - :crazy:

If we can't riddle that, who are we, really?

Thanks for the speculative thread! :D and it's not even a conspiracy theory hehe.

Plus, being in Kucinich' company is GOOD company ;-)
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AllenVanAllen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
269. One of images on the hieroglyph looks familiar to me
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 05:05 AM by AllenVanAllen






Apparently they had Blackhawk helicopters in ancient Egypt! ;)





I don't think that we are alone in the universe, it would seem improbable. As far as visitation goes...I just don't know.








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