There is nothing wrong with capitalism.

[C......N......C]

It just needs to be taxed and regulated to take care of the workers. Capitalism gets things done very well. The benefits just have to be shared. The methods have to be regulated to respect human rights.

[SharonAnn]

1. You're right, "The trouble with capitalism is capitalists"

From William F. Buckley, highly respected conservative editor of National Review:

“Every ten years I quote the same adage from the late Austrian analyst Willi Schlamm, and I hope that ten years from now someone will remember to quote it in my memory. It goes, "The trouble with socialism is socialism. The trouble with capitalism is capitalists."”
…
What dismays is the utter lack of class in such businesses and businessmen here parading their skills in distortion. Michael Eisner appears twice in the table of the 25 largest compensation packages paid in a single year. In 1993 he took home $203 million. In 1998, $575.6 million.

That money was taken, directly, from company shareholders. But the loss, viewed on a larger scale, is a loss to the community of people who believe in the capitalist free-market system. Because extortions of that size tell us, really, that the market system is not working — in respect of executive remuneration. What is going on is phony. It is shoddy, it is contemptible, and it is philosophically blasphemous.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/wfb200504200907.asp

[sufrommich]

3. Buckley was obviously a pinko commie, a relic from the

days before the republican enlightenment.:sarcasm:

[No.23]

4. Translation.

"The trouble with socialism is socialism. The trouble with capitalism is capitalists."

The trouble with making sure that everyone gets their first portion first (socialism) is... you can't get a second portion until everyone gets their first portion.

And the trouble with greed (capitalism) is... some are too greedy.

[SDuderstadt]

2. Exactly...

we need to restore our system of DEMOCRATIC capitalism. If you'd like to learn more, I suggest:

http://www.democratic-capitalism.com/

http://www.kellysite.net/

[Oregone]

5. "The benefits just have to be shared"

That sounds like socialism to me. Aren't you rather arguing, "There is nothing wrong with capitalism, so long as its really socialism" :)

There is much wrong with capitalism is its purest, true form. Most namely, workers become assets, worth only what their labor costs. When you take the human face away from the actual worker, you create an economic system open to egregious abuse. Benefits will never be shared, because the workers do not own the means of production. Therefore, they have no right to profit from anything they create. They only have a right to be paid the going wage for their labor, so long as there is not another group will to work for less or in worse (perhaps more productive) conditions. In many ways, capitalism creates a race to the bottom amongst the lowest, and a wealth acceleration amongst the elite. When you stand on the streets of any modern city and look around, and then up, you will realize the price for the height of such skyscrapers. Look into the eyes and faces of the dehumanized workers around you.

[C......N......C]

7. Socialism is a political philosophy, capitalism is a business philosophy.

I am saying that capitalism has to be regulated for the betterment of the workers. The best way to regulate it would be to take care of its workers. Social programs are needed. Supreme capitalist take the money for themselves. There is nothing that says they have to do that. They could spend more on their workers. It is not illegal to take care of your workers.

There is no law that says that capitalism has to abuse workers. There is no law that prevents capitalist from helping workers. It is a choice. Influencing that choice for the betterment of the workers is socialism.

[Oregone]

11. Socialism is not a political philosophy. It is an economic philosopy.

It states that a central authority owns the means of production, rather than private shareholders. For example, lets assume that there is a publicly traded capitalistic company....lets call it GE for example. Now, lets assume there is a government entity, lets call it the USGOV for example. So, its socialism if the USGOV buys 100% of the shares of GE, because the USGOV would own the means of production. When dividends are created from profits that GE creates, the USGOV would receive them instead of private shareholders. That is socialism. It doesn't need to involve politics whatsoever.


"The best way to regulate it would be to take care of its workers"

Do businesses feel morally compelled to coddle the factory machinery? No, they only do what is cost-effective, over some term set in their business model, to do (and they understand when obsolete machines should be decommissioned and replace, due to costs). Workers, to capitalists, are not more important than machines. They are only as important as their ability to labor and what it costs to have them do so. As Marx remarks:

"class of laborers, who live only so long as they find work, and who find work only so long as their labor increases capital. These laborers, who must sell themselves piecemeal, are a commodity, like every other article of commerce, and are consequently exposed to all the vicissitudes of competition, to all the fluctuations of the market."

Truly, workers are nothing more than a commodity in a capitalistic system. They are labor with a price tag.


"There is no law that says that capitalism has to abuse workers."

No, there doesn't need to be "laws" directly about it. It is a system that creates conditions that make this abuse easy and profitable. And since there are rules about profits in capitalism, people follow the money into abusing their workers.


"Influencing that choice for the betterment of the workers is socialism."

No, thats called common sense. Socialism, as I described above, is merely when the government owns a company (and they can actually enforce these common sense regulation).

[C......N......C]

13. I believe that capitalism is the only way to get things done.

I think that capitalism has to be regulated with socialists influences. I would say that there is no one way that is the best way. Competition is human nature for example this web sight and the advancing of different thoughts. I think the problem is that too many people don't want to rock the boat because they think that is the boat they are riding to the dreams. Everybody is told you can be whatever you want to be, so work hard and don't rock the boat.

[Oregone]

16. "I believe that" is shitty ground for an economic/political framework.

Until you can come up with a valid reason why if tomorrow the USGOV bough 100% of the shares of GE and operated it EXACTLY THE SAME (minus abuse and excess), the sky would fall.

Really, because if you think that is a problem, you are saying that businesses (in any system) are subject to fail because of who their owners are (rather than how they operate). And hence, in a capitalistic system, even businesses can be subject to being owned by people that are not in their interests.

(where we are going here is a fallacy--ownership in itself, public or private, is not a pre-requisite for success or failure. Hence, socialism, or ownership by a central authority, should not be excluded from the "only way to get things done")

[C......N......C]

18. My whole thought and point is that

business has to be more sensitive to workers. Capitalism works, it is just abused. I am just trying to avoid conflict and suggesting that business has to be sensitive to workers. And I am sure and know of that many business's are sensitive to workers. My objection is to the unregulated robbin of the purse by Wall Street.

[Oregone]

21. And socialism works too BTW

Capitalism is abused, as you remark, because its very nature motivates those looking for profit to realize it at the sake of their expendable commodities (workers).

Therefore, to be of any value to a society, it should most definitely be regulated. And still, when it fails to deliver a beneficial solution in its market niche, it should also be socialized.

[C......N......C]

23. I personally am more of a socialist and human rights supporter

than anything else. I think everybody deserves a good life and retirement. The world has the means to provide this for everybody but choses not to. Winning the lotto doesn't remove you of moral and social obligations. Our society had made gods of the winners. Heathens of the losers. I think that is wrong. I think it is morally wrong. But you know I am poor, so I am just a complainer. If I was rich I would be celebrated for what I say.

[indypaul]

6. As long as capitalism is your servant

and NOT your master.

[Lex]

8. The capitalists shouldn't keep the profits, but socialize the losses.

That's not capitalism. That's bullshit.

[wuushew]

9. Unless you tax at 100%, concentration of wealth will win out over restribution

The Earth just like the board game Monopoly has finite resources.

Hereditary business ownership or indefinate lived corporations will place the fixed wealth of the world in ever fewer hands over time. Please flush out your proposal for perfected capitalism. I would like to hear it.

[acmavm]

10. Capitalism will ONLY work if everyone is honest. It is a totally

unethical and corrupt system the way it's used and defined in the world today. The whole system depends on honesty if it is to work right and work well.

If you could depend on the rich not to suck the life out of everything around them, it would be fine.

[Amonester]

12. Actually, it is taxed and un-regulated...

to take care of the already wealthy at the top (who can evade taxes too easily).

[leftofthedial]

14. capitalism is great

once you regulate to the point that it becomes socialism.

[Romulox]

15. Don't forget the TRILLIONS in taxpayer $$$! The system would collapse without THAT!

[Buck Laser]

17. I'd say it's time to give socialism a chance. nt

[Touchdown]

19. Who are you, Danny Elfman?

;)

[alcibiades_mystery]

20. Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?

:rofl:

[redqueen]

22. Interesting juxtaposition on the topic list.

[blindpig]

24. It's Capitalism or Nature

Choose.