"Tankless WaterHeaters" ....Green Energy...anyone using them...what are the Pro's and Con's ?

[KoKo]

Anyone have any experience using the "Tankless?" Our water heater just died and some salesman is telling us to go "Tankless" for $3,8000 as opposed to replacing our downstairs Hot Water Heater for "TWICE as Much" as we replace it in 2002.

Salesman is saying...we get the "Energy Star" rebate and this think will be the best thing we ever saw...and it will Heat both our Upstairs and Downstairs and that "Energy Codes" since we last replaced our water heaters in 2000 mean that to replace both will cost us about $5,500.00 as opposed to the "Tankless" which we can get an "Energy Star" Rebate on that will cost us about $4,000.00 and we will be compliant with all the new codes.

What should we do? Anyone here have experience with the "Tankless?" They've only been around about 6 or 7 years and our experience with New Stuff in homes led to us dealing with house sales tanking because no one wanted to buy house with: "1970's faulty Aluminum Wiring, 1980's Radon Gas leaking into homes, 1990's Fake Stucco causing complete outside teardown or "Blue Pipe" which had to be replaced because folks houses were flooded. THEN there was "MOLD" and now there's "Chinese Dry Wall" that has to be replaced in houses built in the 2000's.

I'm getting really sick of always buying houses supposed to make me sick...but I don't have any hot water while I'm waiting to decide whether to go with "Tankless" or the regular old Hot Water Tank that I've lived with since I was a kid.

What should I go with?

I know it's a long post...but many of us will be faced with these decisions in years ahead so is it "TANKLESS" (Who knows if this system won't fail and cost me money a year or two down the road and I was an am an Al Gore supporter) or go with the KNOWN (Old fashioned water heater tha isn't new but might have all the "bugs" fleshed out of it. :shrug:

HELP..if any of you have any experience with the "change over!"

[elocs]

1. Wow! I guess hot water heater prices have really gone up

since I paid $300 for one in 2002.

[Mojorabbit]

2. I love mine

it runs off propane as does my cooktop. The only con with it is at the back of the house it takes longer for the water to get hot as it has a ways to go thru the pipes. We keep a bucket in the shower to catch the water to use for plants. No more running out of hot water while taking a shower. Almost instantly hot water in the front of the house near where the unit is located which is outside the kitchen.

[KoKo]

10. We have a two Storey house...Hot water Tank Upstairs and Downstairs and they supply our Heating/Air

Conditioning system since we live in the South of the US and our house (when we bought it) came with an "Apollo Air/Heat System" where the "water heater" goes through pipes to supply hot water to an "air conductor" that blows through our vents. So far that system has been cheaper than our GAS FURNACE SYSTEMS we lived with for years in the Northeast in CT, NY, NJ that supplied our heat.

The "Apollo System" was considered an alternative to the Southern Heat Pump...because it ran off your Hot Water Heater and was therefore more "energy efficient." We've put money in this house replaceing the first Hot Water Heaters that failed to use our Apollo Efficient System but it did seem to save money over when we lived in the NorthEast. But, the Winters in NC are not as severe as when we lived in the NE so it's hard for us to know...but we've been happy with our Apollo "hot water" system until the latest thing where they want to charge over $2,000 for a water heater replacement for just our downstairs while pushing their "Tankless Heater." :-(

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. My mum has one

Having a shower is like standing under a leaky faucet. If the water pressure is turned up, you get colder water, lower pressure, higher temperature. At the optimal temperature, the pressure has to be WEAK. I'd never get one myself.

[roody]

4. Maybe she needs a larger one.

[Mojorabbit]

17. Mine is not like that at all.

Perhaps it needs some fine tuning on the settings.

[MattBaggins]

19. I second this one

My friend and his father own a heating and air conditioning company, and hate the tankless heaters. They say that everyone that they have installed, when they go back to the customers house, they find the tankless disconnected and a new tank based heater next to it. The problem is with controlling the temperature and pressure with it self adjusting as you shower. They may be improving them, but from people I know, the tankless are less than desirable.

[trudyco]

5. Our friends have a mighty mite or something like that.

It's in their basement and heats the whole house. They love it. I've heard it doesn't work well at higher elevations, but they are at 8 thousand feet, so ???

[KoKo]

11. a "Mighty Mite?" Okay..thanks..I'll Google it... n/t

[drmeow]

6. Consumer Reports

did a report on them in October 2008. They totally nixed electric tankless (they say if you have electric, look for a heat pump storage water heater - may be hard to find). You'll have to read the article for info about gas ones.

[KoKo]

7. Thanks for your replies and others...Please keep the replies of your experience coming..

we are waiting with "cold water" and i know that Million across the globe only have rivers and streams to wash anything..and I feel like a turd for asking..given that I should look for a local creek to wash dishes and clothes and the rest..but if we are all going to be forced into a 1,200.00 water heater (to comply with NC code since 2002 when we replaced our last water heater) or getting a "Green Rebate for Energy Star" for an upgrade to Tankless...then I'd like to know ALL YOUR EXPERIENCES!

Many Thanks if you can keep this thread going with your own personal experiences with both...in the last two years or so with replacements.

[MattBaggins]

20. Those prices seem way off

You should be able to find something in the $300 to $500 range; maybe $600 tops.

[burrowowl]

8. I had tankless in France

In fact, tankless is about all they use in Europe.
If you can afford it, go tankless. Make sure your installer is qualified, gas inlet will have to be a bit larger than for tank water heater.

[beac]

33. I had it in Italy, but we lived in a little apartment there.

I wasn't even aware it was available in the states.

[Stevenmarc]

9. I've had mine for a year and would never go back to a tank system

In the months when I wasn't using gas for heat I could see an almost 50% drop in energy costs compared to the year before.

[KoKo]

12. Do you have a Two Zone Heat System...though...

My worry is they are saying One Box can replace two "Tanked" water heaters for both our "upstairs and down." I Googled and some are saying that that you don't get much time for "hot water" on the Tankless.

It doesn't have the capacity of the "Tanked" water heaters. :shrug:

[Stevenmarc]

24. My hot water and my heat are 2 seperate systems

my hot water is unlimited, as long as the tap is on the hot water flows.

[Duckhunter935]

13. You may need larger gas lines

They require larger gas lines than tank water heaters because it is not a slow warming like the tanked kind, this is why they may not get as hot if they have smaller lines. Most also require an exterior wall for the flue exit.

[Kip Humphrey]

14. Solar.

[HillbillyBob]

15. I have done a good bit of research, that said, depending on the age you may

be able to get a few more years out of your old tank by replacing the elements, they cost about 30$ ea and anyone that can use a screwdriver and wrench can change them.
We have a large house and the master bath and laundry are at one end, the kitchen is 40 feet away in the middle of the house and the last baths are another 30 feet away at the other end of the house. The electric 50 gallon tank costs about 40$ a month to power and it is in the laundry that backs up to the master bath shower, that takes about a gallon of water to get hot, the kitchen takes 3 gallons and it takes 5 gallons of cold water to get hot at the south end bathrooms. It is a modular, think double wide 70 feet long.
We are going with a solar water heater the unit and attendant support will cost us about 3000$ all told that is 2 recirculation pumps one for the closed loop and one for recirculation of the cooled water back to the domestic tank, and two solar panels to drive the (12v)pumps and a heat exchanger to reuse our current tank. We will leave one of the electric elements in for very cold times, but it will be kept off most of the time as the solar unit even on cold days will produce 170 degree 'antifreeze' that circulated through the heat exchanger in our domestic tank.
Yes it sounds complicated, but once installed will need very little to no maintenance other than changing the 'antifreeze' every 5-9 years.
The price you are quoted for point of use heaters is about 2500$ too high, unless it is a European bosch system. Do you have natural gas or propane? You will have to have venting. Which should not add much to this or do you have hard to access plumbing? That price seems awfully high to me, unless you live in someplace expensive like NY or Ca. I have looked at good ones for under 1,000$, I did not opt for that because we live out in the boonies and getting a propane truck up our dirt road(hell when it rains I don't use our dirt road!) We would have had to have a tank, and 3 units, plus venting, plus the gas lines run it would have been about 10,000$ for the propane tank, burial, lines, vents etc, the cheap part was the heaters. Our solar water heater cost less than 1,000 for the unit, the rest of the system and the support for it will be another 2,000 to 2,500. We also bought a big enough unit that it will drive radiant in floor heating..next year or year after.
Electric units were out of the question as again we are out in the boonies up in the woods, and the power out here suxes, fluxes, and shuts down when there is any weather.
For those who simply have the problem of getting hot water to the shower/ sink there are kits that use your cold line as a return, a 110v pump, check valve and timer or switch, that can save you thousands of gallons of fresh water down the drain, which is especially helpful with like us you are on a well and septic system.
Just google up instant hot water, there are kits for off grid low voltage and on grid 110v. They don't eat a lot of power either.
a No power version hot water lobster http://www.hotwaterlobster.com/
Tankless and Recirculation systems google http://www.google.com/search?q=instant+hot+water+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a

[KoKo]

22. Thanks...alot of info...we have natural gas line...

and because the tank sprung leak (8 years old and time to go the repair person said) we couldn't replace any elements, because the tank was shot.

We are in a city..(I grew up rural so I understand what you say about what you've been through...hills and muck getting up there in the wet) and so my worry is that we might be getting "scammed" with being tolks "Tankless" is way to go when there might be cheaper alternative. But...But...the cheaper alternative (which is replacing what we have with hot water heaters) we are being told is "Not Up to Code" and will cost us MORE than the Tankless.

For some reason Hubby and Me..smell SCAM! Even with the "Energy Star" break in rebate...they've jacked the price up saying we aren't "up to code" even though our house is only 16 years old and last water heater was replace about Eight Years ago. They are saying codes now cost us twice as much as Eight Years Ago? :shrug: :eyes:

SCAM...but we don't have hot water downstairs...and they will figure we can't wait it out...

[ellenfl]

16. my co-worker just got one. it takes 15 minutes to get hot water.

that's a lot of water wasted and we're in permanent drought conditions.

ellen fl

[cliffordu]

18. I've got one in my airstream -

we love it -

Didn't cost any 3800 bucks either.

In terms of the big home units, I don't know -

Maybe a small one for each set of faucets....

[jmowreader]

21. My recommendation...

Tankless is a technology that's been around in Europe for over 20 years. There are two reasons for it--tankless doesn't require heating stored water, hence is potentially more energy efficient, and tankless units are a hell of a lot smaller than tank units. People who have them like them, but as you've already noticed they're very expensive.

Here is my recommendation:

If you're not already plumbed for gas service you do not want one of these unless you want to spend some bucks to run a gas line into your home. A tankless electric requires--this is no shit--three 40-amp (Bosch PowerStar) or three 50-amp (Paloma) duplex breakers. If you cannot install a gas tankless, you can't install a tankless at all. Similar energy efficiency, due to thermal mass, comes from installing an 80-gallon water heater with a 12-year warranty (they also have the best insulation) and burying it in fiberglass. (Thermal mass: Imagine taking a tin can and heating it until it glows red. Hold the can up in the air and wait for it to cool down. It won't take long. Now imagine taking a thousand-pound anvil and heating IT until it glows red. A week later, that thing will still be hot enough to give anyone who touches it a third-degree burn. The same thing holds true with water: the more of it you have, the longer it will take to cool down once it's heated up...and it will take even longer if you've got a lot of insulation around it.)

If you ARE running a gas water heater already and you can afford the up-front money to purchase a tankless unit, go for it.

Since you are currently in an emergency situation if you really want to go tankless, your current unit is electric and no one in town has a tankless unit in stock at this moment, go to Home Depot or Lowe's, buy the cheapest electric water heater they have, send me a PM so I can tell you how to install it (it's actually very easy) and hire someone to install the tankless you really want. (Gas water heaters are too damn expensive to do this with.) After the tankless is in, put an ad in one of the "shopper" papers or on Craigslist to sell the cheap water heater for $50 or so.

[KoKo]

23. .thank you for your "emergency advice."

We have a gas water heater that seemed fine just eight years ago...when we paid $900.00 for it (we use it for our heating system also...and that's why it was way more than folks who use it just for hot water for sink and dishwasher and showers) and now the price has more than doubled to replace water heater we have that has died...but they say it's less than for a "Tankless" they can install that will heat both floors of our house, showers and heat and cool the whole place. I'm skeptical that we can replace both an upstairs and downstairs water heater with one "Downstairs Unit" that will do all this for a four bedroom two story house that used two water heaters to do an Apollo Heating and Air system that's run off WATER HEATERS...:shrug:

[jmowreader]

25. Oh God, I didn't realize you were heating your home with hot water

I really think tankless is going to be the WRONG way to go in that case. I think it will take a lot more gas to run a tankless (that has to run full flame every time you need space heating) than a tank type.

[KoKo]

27. Thanks...that's what I'm thinking, too. But they say it's more efficient and they

can put a big system (fits on a wall) downstairs and force the water upstairs and it will cost us less and be more efficient.

Sounds crazy to me that they can force hot water upstairs and down to repace two water heaters...but what they will charge us for the two water heaters is incredible..almost $4,500 for water heaters that cost us about 1,200 just eight years ago.

If our heating didn't come off these water heaters, I'd go to Lowes and buy a unit and pay an electrician to put it in. I figure it couldn't cost more than $400.00 ...if it wasn't that our heating and air run off the water heaters.

[nilram]

26. Codes have changed?

Codes have changed? Maybe that's right, but I'd get more estimates. Call as many plumbing companies as you can and have a parade. If they meet each other in the driveway, so much the better, they'll know they have to give you a good bid.

(If you're replacing a unit, and not selling the house, do you have to comply with the new codes, or is the system grandfathered in? Generally, I thought it was the latter. Could be worth a call to the county if you can wait till Monday.)


There's a lot of good info in the postings above. I've been considering tankless since my current unit has a slow leak. Some factors that I haven't yet seen mentioned:

Household size. A household size of one or two will get a better payback on a tankless system. If you don't use much hot water, it's cheaper to not be heating a big reservoir. A friend with three sons (she says four, counting her husband) said it wouldn't have paid off for her because of their water usage. Don't know how this factors in with it connecting to your heating system as well.

System lifetime. The heat exchangers in tankless hot water systems can eventually fill up with minerals or grit that's present in the incoming water. As they fill up, the efficiency of your heating system goes down. Just about the time that the theoretical efficiency of a tankless system offsets the extra money you paid, you're wondering why your showers are so lukewarm and its time to replace the heat exchanger.

I've heard it argued that they have better engineering on the heat exchangers that gets rid of the clogging problem. Given that this would be part of your home heating system, the system would get an even bigger workout than if it was only for household hot water.

Overall, I've gotten so many mixed reviews (I spent a lot of time looking at folks discussing them, and looking for professional reports) that I decided it wasn't worth the extra expense. As a poster above suggests, I'll be finding a high efficiency model with a 12+ year warranty. (Strongly leaning towards a model at Sears that fits this; has two anodes, which improves its lifespan.)

Good luck.

[KoKo]

31. Thank Goodness you only have a "slow leak!" Ours was a flood in our garage

and if hubby hadn't been going out to get seed for our bird feeder we wouldn't have caught it before it flooded the whole garage. As it was...it was a "mop up job" once we cut off water supply and we were glad it happened in afternoon rather than overnight! :D. It was bad enough as it was..because like many of us we store "STUFF" in our garage (kids grown...crap left for storage, etc.) so we have things they want us to save but can't store them, themselves.

Anyway...after the initial "shock" estimates we are going to get other bids. Something doesn't seem right about these high estimates and talk about "code changes" that make the "Tankless" a better deal than replacing one water heater. But, given that estimates for one water heater are higher than "Tankless" for two with a 20 year warantee...you can understand we smell some hint of scam, here.

We are probably going to sell this house in the next three years (hopefully market doesn't tank more in the interim) and so we don't know whether "Tankless/Green" is a good thing (but there are problems with it) or to just go with what we can find in a regular water heater. Our regular heating maintenance guy is carrying on about we need a "top hat" to stop fumes from killing kids from emissions and valves and stuff they've put into "Code" in the past eight years that jacked up the price by hundreds. It does seem extreme.

I think we will check out Sears and Lowes. We also are checking out the Consumer Reports article from '08 someone posted and doing some Google searches.

I find that getting help from fellow DU'ers who have experience is often the best for info opinions that the "experts" from sites I don't know and even my trusty Consumer Reports are helpful with a major decision like this.

Thanks...and I will PM if I have some further questions as we get more into this. I can wash clothes and dishes in cold water for a few days and just wear a sweater downstairs until we get more info about what we should do...and it's okay timewise. If this was December or January with frigid cold ...I'd probably have less time to think.

[nilram]

38. three years

Maybe "green" would be a good selling point for your house.

Let us know what you decide. The positive experiences on this thread seem to outweigh the negatives, so it is making me reconsider somewhat. (Just checked the heater, and its still just dripping now and then. I've been keeping my fingers crossed for months now, heh.)

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

28. mine works okay,

just don't expect a great shower while doing laundry or the dish washer is running.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

29. Just so you know, the wholesale cost of the equipment is

about $1,000.00. I installed one for a friend a few years back. I charged him $1,800.00 and it wasn't enough but four grand sounds high to me. I'd get a few more estimates unless you live in like New York City or San Francisco where the cost of living is through the roof and contractors have to charge those kind of prices just to keep up with overhead.

BTW, my friend loves his. I would put one in for myself but my building has no gas available and the wholesalers I deal with tell me that the electric ones really don't cut it yet.

Whatever you do, get several bids and check references! There are a lot of flakes in this kind of work! If one bid is way low, don't take it. That contractor does not know what he is doing and probably has dreg help. If a bid is way high, don't assume you are paying for the best. Your just being gouged. Most legitimate contractors will be within a few hundred dollars of each other as the business costs are similar and the work is a known quantity. Pick the one you feel most comfortable with but CHECK THEM OUT!

By the way, I live in one of the most expensive places in the country and you can get a new 40 gallon water heater installed by a competent mechanic for under $1,000.00. The difference in price for a larger one is minor and the amount of work is exactly the same.

Fyi, I'm a union member who has been doing this sort of thing for over 40 years so if you have questions, P.M. me and I will try to help.
Bud

[KoKo]

32. Thanks...I'm in NC..and still the price seems high.

I'll PM you as we move along if we have questions and we are going to seek more bids. The estimate doesn't sound within reason to us...and we've been using these folks for maintenance of our H/VAC for years..but they've also changed owners in that time. So..one never knows if the new ownership is scamming to pay for a "buy out" they might have overpaid for.

We can live with the inconvenience for some days so we don't get scammed. And, DU'ers are always the best with personal experience and information that I respect.

[Fiendish Thingy]

30. We had one in our first home and loved it

We installed a gas burning unit, mainly because we had a small house,and this fit perfectly in the laundry room, leaving space for the appliances. It only took a minute or two at the most to get hot water to the shower/tub on the other side of the house (not that far- it was only 800 sqft), but you had to be careful if you showered while the dishwasher or laundry was running, as you might get a sudden dip in temp, which, if you corrected by increasing the temp, you would risk getting burned a couple of minutes later when the washer stopped using hot water. I seem to recall it cut down on you gas bill too.

[1]

34. tankless is a great solution, but you have to rethink water heating...

I have a small cabin. only two endpoints for hot water, the bathroom and the kitchen. i installed an electric tankless in an area off the bathroom. it is a small electric and it required 2 240v circuits (for a larger installation, more hot water endpoints, an electric tankless would require 4 to 6 240v circuits.) i like electric because it requires no gas lines leading to the unit and no venting from the unit as no gas/propane is being burned where toxic fumes must be vented. if you go electric you must make sure you have the available electrical service and circuit breaker slots in your electrical main to support it.

does it work? yes, quite nicely. i am not keeping 30 to 50 gallons of water (or 200 or more if you have more endpoints) hot 24/7 in a central tank waiting to be used. the water is only heated when i need it. hot in less than 30 seconds of the water passing through the unit.

but here is where the rethinking part comes in.

if you want to run your washing machine, your dishwasher and take a shower all at the same time... that is a hell of a burden on a "centrally" installed tankless system and you will not be happy with the results. you have to stagger the usage to get the maximum benefit (wash the clothes first, then do the dishes..., etc.)

the other thing, and this applies to conventional hot water heaters too, is that there is cold water in the pipes from the hot water source leading to the endpoints (faucet or dishwasher or washing machine) that must be pushed out before you get any hot water. so if you have a 50' run of 3/4 inch pipe between the hot water heater and the endpoint, then you wait for the hot water until all that cold is pushed out...


which bring me to my point (if you are still reading...)

my much smarter friend (after observing my tankless experience) also installed electric tankless as well. but he thought it through first and instead of installing a single central service to push all of that cold water through the pipes, installed small individual electric tankless units at each endpoint. each only servicing a single (or two) sink or washing machine or dishwasher. these units are within a foot or two of the endpoint so the hot water is pretty much instantaneous.

i wish i had thought of that.

about the cost. my central tankless unit, a seisco rf-14, cost me about $500. i did the electrical work myself, so the installation was just wire, circuit breakers and my time. installing smaller endpoint units is about the same tankless cost, but their electrical usage is much, much smaller. so while his initial installation was higher, his monthly electrical bills are smaller.


that's my experience. for what its worth...

good luck. pm me if you have any questions.

[Rage for Order]

35. Find a new plumber

No way should it cost $5,500 to replace two water heaters. Go to Home Depot's website, or Lowe's, and you can see that quality water heaters are about $500 each. I'd think you could buy both water heaters and have them installed for no more than $2,000, maybe $2,500 if you got a really bad deal. Even the tankless water heaters are only $1,500 - $2,000.

[tsuki]

36. We have tried the tankless here, and where ever we install them

we have a problem.

There are so many exceptions. Did not get it clean every year? Not covered. Water substandard? Not covered.

We solved the energy problem with a timer. Tank with a timer and recirc system. If the air conditioner or heater is going, the water is heated by the air conditioner or heater. If not, the timer kicks on and does not heat during times of non usage.

A lot cheaper in both installation and maintenance.

[Jakes Progress]

37. Gas tankless can make sense.

They come in different sizes. If you need one for heating water to heat your house, I'm not sure that it will be the best thing. I used a house last year that had two tanks. It was a large house and the two tanks weren't to get more hot water, but the people who put it in wanted the water quicker so they put one on each end of the house. Either one would have supplied all their needs, but they didn't heat the house with hot water - just sinks, washers, and showers. I always had hot water for as long as I ran the shower. Without the two heaters, I probably would have had to watch running the dishwasher or washing machine while showering.

I wouldn't worry about the technology or the reliability (given a proven product by a reputable supplier) but I would get a few suggestions from more than one supplier about the needs of a house that is heated by hot water.

[KoKo]

39. Follow up: We did some research...called a few people and think Tankless is NOT way to go

given our heating system also runs off the hot water tank. Seems the building codes have added all kinds of things to a gas water heater than means we have to pay $2,600 (including installation) to be up to code. Just 8 years ago the same gas water heater was $900.00 for a 50 Gal. vented Apollo.

It's outrageous. Both our water heaters have been outside vented but the building codes are so strict now that you have to have circulators and other gagets no matter what your circumstances. It's supposed to be for extra safety concerns that new regulations have more than doubled the price. Apparently electric water heaters are much less...but we have to go with the gas because of the heat system running off it.