It CAN be hard to dismiss a bad teacher. I've seen it happen before.

[bluestateguy]

There was a teacher in my high school who I was fortunate enough not to ever have who was a complete incompetent boob. He sometimes came to school drunk, failed to show up for work at all on many more occasions, rarely prepared lessons, verbally abused students and basically the kids didn't learn much of anything on his watch. He was encouraged to consider retiring by the Administration, but he blew them off. As a tenured teacher with 25 years of experience, he was rather well paid with good benefits, and didn't want to give that up. Now I support teacher tenure and understand why it is necessary, but this was just flagrant abuse of the system.

My junior year the school started the process to dismiss him, and it got bogged down in a thick muck of red tape, appeals, periods of discovery, hearings, meetings and general paper pushing. It was a full three years before he was actually fired (I kept on following the case through friends of mine after I left for college). He spent another year filing subsequent appeals and lawsuits that went nowhere. The union made excuses for him at every step of the process. Amazing how intensely he fought to keep his job. Had he invested that kind of intensity on actually teaching, then things would have been different.

One of my old teachers that I still keep in touch with told me that this old fart died about three years ago still convinced that he was "railroaded".

[madfloridian]

1. Congratulations to President Obama and his education czar

They have done a good job of turning people here against teachers, and against each other.

:applause:

[Runcible Spoon]

8. Indeed.

In any case, I find it really hard to believe, in this culture of surveillance technology and zero tolerance towards alcohol abuse, that an abusive drunk would last long as a teacher. All it would take is a single student and a cellphone with video recording capability. Maybe 15 years ago, but no longer.

This sudden obsession with "bad teachers" is a canard: for every "bad" teacher there are 1,000 soulless bureaucrats running the administrative end of things; combine that with the Puritanical, clueless, self-righteous twits who infect the school boards and what we have is a poison environment for teachers.

Arne Duncan is a useless piece of shit and among the worst of the Cabinet picks.

[madfloridian]

10. Duncan's choice sent a message to public school teachers.

And it was not a good message.

This is a shame to see DU diss teachers like this.

[DemBones DemBones]

72. So true. nt

[Lone_Star_Dem]

74. I still love and respect the vast majority of all teachers.

I'm just funny that way, though.

[sense]

90. I don't think that's what's happening

I think you're (not the singular you) forgetting that these are the people we hand our children over to for 12 years and simply have to trust that they know what they're doing, are fair and really have each child's best interest at heart. We also have to trust that they're well educated themselves and they're using methods that work for a very wide variety of students. Then, there are the abusers who don't get weeded out until people's lives have already been forever altered.

I think most people aren't against teachers at all, they've simply learned, usually the hard way, not to trust the system. It's broken. Really broken.

What makes sense about 1 teacher having to try to teach anything to 25-30 students at once, many of whom have behavioral or emotional problems that preclude their conforming their behavior to what people consider the "norm" or something even close to it? Teacher's spend an enormous amount of time in crowd control. By the time they get most of the kids paying attention they've already used up a large portion of their class time. The NCLB and teaching to the test is another enormous obstacle that gets in the way of their really being able to accomplish much. It would drive me insane to be in their position and I think they need much more support than they're getting.

The top-down management doesn't work for anyone, except those at the top and that leaves out every single child. Isn't the point supposed to be to provide the kids with the education they'll need? That is being left out of the equation, in an attempt to keep adults employed. The focus should be on the kids and it hasn't been in a very long time.

This is meant as a general statement, it doesn't apply to all teachers, children, admin., union members, etc. I'm not picking on anyone in particular and I know that there are many great teacher's out there doing the best they can with very limited resources. On the whole, I simply think we could and need to do a better job instead of making the children suffer for our mistakes.

[madfloridian]

103. It worked for a century or so...until the free traders came along.

Public school worked quite well.. Then in the 80s I think they started running investigations to find problems and see what was wrong.

No system is perfect. But they have drained the resources of public schools and then told them to do more and more.

It's heartbreaking.

Public school can work, but not with all the corporate Dems and Republicans lobbying against it and taking money away.

[sense]

107. It can work if we fix it.

If we just keep screaming that everyone is against it when they try to add their ideas there will be no progress. The more ideas the better.

[EFerrari]

2. It can be hard to "dismiss" most workers because people are basically fair.

While I believe your story, there are stories about any profession or industry or workplace like that. :shrug:

[madfloridian]

5. This is a political move.

And it's sad.

But it's working.

Now it will be even easier to put teachers down.

Tactics of a politician.

[EFerrari]

26. I know you feel strongly about this. I do, too.

But, for anyone in office this would be a political decision, so while I do blame the Obama team for lighting into teachers sort of ham fistedly, I want to see more WHILE I support our teachers.

[madfloridian]

35. There's a simple answer. Fund the schools, hire good teachers,

pay them well and respect them.

That simple.

Not sure what you meant by wanting to see more.

[EFerrari]

48. I think what I mean is, I want to see of the Obama administration

has a more cohesive plan than just fingering teachers and by extension, their union.

[madfloridian]

61. Me, too.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

64. Okay! Right there with you.

:hi:

[sense]

95. Those other workers

do not have complete control over our children for 30 hours each week. Apples and Oranges.

[yurbud]

3. teachers unions don't want people like that to continue in the job

and would normally counsel them to take the deal they were offered to leave.

[47of74]

4. There were teachers like that in Junior High

I'm still convinced that the Junior High I attended was a dumping grounds of sorts for some of the bad teachers in the district.

[Demeter]

7. Is that Hex in Your Sig Line?

If I weren't horribly ill, I suppose I could decode it.... (hint hint)

[Extend a Hand]

32. He can't respond

because:
"Brain has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down"
;)

[Demeter]

45. Ah, thank You!

[knitter4democracy]

6. We had a similar teacher at my high school.

Our Spanish teacher had early-onset Alzheimers, though she wasn't diagnosed at the time. We all knew it, though. I'll never forget the day she thought she locked herself in the bathroom--when the lock was on her side of the door. I found her there (she didn't show up for class), and talked her through it.

Anyway, she wasn't fired because her husband was pastor of a big church in town. It was a small town, and pastors have a lot of power there. It was the deal the church made with the pastor--the school would hire his wife so he could take the job. So, we ended up with a slowly disintegrating teacher who got lost in the school she'd taught in for years, forgot about tests, and worse.

[paulsby]

9. analogy: teachers and cops

i believe this is true.

fwiw, in police work, we see the same thing.

at least in my state, it is very difficult to fire a mediocre cop. in fact, it is impossible. merely being fair to middling or even kind of poor at your job, once you have completed probationary status is never going to get you fired.

given misconduct, it is still relatively difficult to fire a cop (and don't get me wrong. i believe in progressive discipline. iow, look at the past record of discipline and achievement, etc. just like with criminals - past record MATTERS).

like i said before, i'm a proud union member, but unions do NOT advocate for the public good , they advocate for their members, and usually the least amongst their members.

sure, lots of cops are falsely accused, and we need a system of due process, just like we need for teachers.

but the reality is that , at least where i work, you can do a relatively poor job, and assuming you are off probation, you will NOT get fired.

many cops, just like many teachers, REALIZE this and decide to do just the minimum required, nothing more, cause they get the exact same pay for doing so, plus less civil liability and scrutiny.

i know some cops who are literally 100% REactive. iow, they ONLY respond to 911 calls, and don't go out of their way to do anything else. that exposes them to less liability, and plus many are lazy or disillusioned.

don't tell me there aren't teachers who are like this, too.

cops and teachers are both civil servants, they both have very strong unions, they both have the public's trust (polling data proves the latter, despite what many here might believe - the vast majority of citizens respect cops and cops and teachers routinely are among the top echelon of respected careers), and they both have plenty of members who simply don't earn their paychecks.

[madfloridian]

11. Then why not break the cop and teacher unions as our next step here?

Hey, now that's an idea.

Congratulations to President Obama...the door is not wide open for teachers to be complete scapegoats.

[paulsby]

12. nice strawman and asburdity

nobody is (certainly not me) arguing for busting unions.

i frigging dig my union, and unions in general.

i am just honest enough to admit what unions are - they are advocacy groups for their members. sometimes, what they advocate and/or win through negotiotiation, etc. is not in the public's best interests, or even in the best interests of their constituency - in the long run.

their job is to advocate for stuff, to help their members keep their jobs, and to be a counterparty to management.

that's a necessary role, but it is no more "goodness and light" than management is.

[madfloridian]

15. Well, then let's just join the rest at DU

in general overall disrespect of teachers.

Congrats to President Obama for calling attention to all us bad very bad no good terrible horrible teachers.

:applause:

[paulsby]

17. again, you are making stuff up imo

i don't see any "overall disrespect" of teachers. i see critique of SOME teachers, and of a system that doesn't incentivize excellence.

heck, i do see a fair amount of overall disrespect of cops, but so be it. :)

[madfloridian]

22. No, I am not making stuff up. I am appalled honestly at the sudden disrespect

of all teachers.

[paulsby]

28. as soon as i see this "sudden disrespect"

i'll consider your argument.

i've read these threads, and i have not seen that at all. i have seen fair criticism, an acknowledgment that not all teachers are good teachers, and some people advocating for incentivizing excellence, and others arguing against that.

i would bet dollars to doughnuts (actually i live in the Pacific NW, we eat muffins not doughnuts, but i digress) that the VAST majority of DU denizens respect teachers moreso than most other professions, and significantly so.

if you want to talk about a profession that's disrespected here, try hedge fund manager.

[Runcible Spoon]

39. Are you blind?

Did you read the OP of this thread you are posting on? :dunce:

All of these "cute" personal anecdotes are meant to bolster the argument that shitty teachers are endemic to the current system and as such there is a need to "reform" it.

In any case, if you haven't picked that up on DU this week perhaps the educational system DID fail...you.

[madfloridian]

42. Thanks for that.

I am very discouraged about these posts.

:hi:

[Runcible Spoon]

46. No kidding.

These threads like "How many horrible/excellent teachers did you have?" make me :puke:. As in everything else, most teachers are going to be fairly competent and get the job done with the limited authority and resources they have to creatively adapt the rigid system. Teachers have it harder than most jobs because they are accountable to many groups, however, and do it cheaper than most other professions that require large amounts of time requiring constant, prolonged contact with people such as lawyers, psychologists, (DMV workers:evilgrin:) Can't recall the last time I met an "inspired" attorney.

At any rate, you're a credit to teachers everywhere.

[paulsby]

49. everything you say

about teachers above could be applied to cops as well.

would you have a problem with a thread that said "How many horrible/excellent cops have you dealt with?"

i wouldn't.

there ARE bad teachers, and there are mediocre teachers. the same could be said of cops.

most imo are good people doing a good job.

let's stop pretending otherwise.

[Runcible Spoon]

60. I have a problem with the cop/teacher analogy

Most of the supervisory positions in the law enforcement field come from internal promotions of lower ranks. Teachers cannot be "promoted" to most administrative positions without taking on the responsibility of extra degrees/specialized coursework/examinations.

However, if I were to suggest that there were problems in the law enforcement field (as there certainly are) I would begin by assessing the structure of the institution and suggesting changes to the administrative/policy end of things. I wouldn't suggest a witch hunt against "bad" police as a matter of policy. There should already be in place an effective and fair way to investigate those who have violated the rules. In any institutional system, those without power to change the system have no culpability in its failure; if there are many corrupt/incompetent people at that level it is merely a failure of the system to weed them out or improve them. Going after teachers or police officers and blaming them for the failure of the system as well as the focal point for "reform" might be effective politics but it's bad policy.

[paulsby]

43. there IS a need for reform

just as there is a NEED for reform in police work.

in many respects, we can make the system better.

change, you know. progressivism? iow, the status quo isn't always the best.

the system does not, on the whole, incentivize excellence (much like police work), and in some respects DISincentivizes it.

as for the educational system? i had experience at both public and private schools. i think that gives me a pretty fair perspective, in that i attended a parochial school, a liberal quaker private school, and two large public schools.

and i saw the strengths and drawbacks of all of them.

i also had some really good teachers, some crap teachers, and exposure to a system that could be made better.

[Runcible Spoon]

51. No. Just because you went to school does NOT mean you have a privileged perspective.

Regardless of the fact that you attended several kinds. Pedagogical technique and institutional structure actually insist upon a distancing of students from the mechanisms used to educate them. It wasn't until I was well into my Master's that I learned how teachers are basically forced to maintain the divide that keeps the system functioning. This distance also severely limits the teachers' ability to creatively engage their students; an emphasis on standardized testing further mechanizes the learning experience and leaves teachers basically nothing in terms of the capacity or even TIME to actually show students how to think critically.

"Change" isn't inherently good if we are not reflective and informed about why it is happening, who is directing it, and how it will be implemented. The vast majority of people on DU with backgrounds in pedagogy know Arne Duncan's problematic past as well as his philosophy about "reform".

"Incentivized excellence" should come in the form of raising pay for ALL teachers and supporting ongoing opportunities for existing teachers to improve through pursuing higher degrees. It should NOT be in the form of running a public institution like a fucking corporation.

The fundamental problem with the educational system is NOT teachers; they have very little ability to recursively interact with the system and by definition someone with no power can have no accountability for how the system functions as a whole. In my eyes, the single biggest thing that can be done to improve the educational system is by directly involving teachers in the administrative apparatus and drawing principals, superintendents, etc. from the very best of the teachers and giving them an outlet for pursuing the additional coursework necessary to fulfill these roles.

You wouldn't BELIEVE how many useless and overpaid administrators have spent not a single day teaching a class.

[paulsby]

54. i am more than familiar with educational principles

as *i* am a trainer of several topics, and have taught numerous classes, and am even certified to train other trainers in some areas (like hate crimes investigations).

i disagree that incentivizing excellenc should come in form of raising pay for ALL teachers.

that does NOT incentivize excellence.

incentivizing excellence means just that- rewarding excellence.

and i am well aware about the issue with useless and overpaid admin's.

one of my chief gripes with the public education system is the high admin/teacher ratios.

[Runcible Spoon]

65. How does it not incentivize excellence?

In any other social service industry (medicine, law, etc.) higher pay attracts a higher caliber of candidates for the positions. This is basic fact. Right now, we rely upon the personal passion and dedication teachers have for serving their students, since they have no other incentive. Rewarding some and not others requires an inherently flawed system of measuring excellence and encourages exploitation of the rules. It would also create a hostile and competitive environment among the teachers when what is needed is solidarity. It is merely another mechanism for dividing teachers which would have a detrimental effect on unionization.

Individual incentive should stay where it began; in the corporate world.

And I'm sorry, your teaching in law enforcement has little relevance to teaching children for many reasons. For example, you are teaching adults who are voluntarily there. That alone is an ocean of distance from teaching squirming children who want nothing more than to get out of there. You were not instructed in the specific pedagogical techniques, and if you were to walk in tomorrow and take an exam to qualify for a teaching license, you would probably fail.

[paulsby]

66. it doesn't incentivize excellence

because you are not paying MORE for people who demonstrate excellence. if you give the same pay to those that are excellent, as to those that aren't, that is hardly an incentive to be excellent.

i find your argument about "hostile and competitive" to be typical of those who embrace a system that rewards mediocrity the same as excellence.

"And I'm sorry, your teaching in law enforcement has little relevance to teaching children for many reasons. For example, you are teaching adults who are voluntarily there. "

lol. that shows how much YOU know. VOLUNTARILY there? um, quite frequently these are people who are MANDATED to take these classes. you wanna see hostile? how about a 30 yr veteran cop being told he has to take a class on patrol procedure from somebody half his age.

squirming? cops are A.D.D. to the max.

one of the reasons many are drawn to law enforcement is because they don't want to be sitting behind a desk and told what to do. it favors strong individualism, self starters, etc

and i WAS instructed in specific pedagogical techniques.

again, you are demonstrating some woeful ignorance here and baseless assumptions.

incredible.

[Runcible Spoon]

73. Sorry, no comparison between cops and kids.

I don't care how salty that 30 year veteran is, he's an ADULT and I presume he wants to continue being a cop. As such, he should be a big boy and sit through his class. I'm surprised you would tolerate such attitude in your classes. :shrug:

If the law enforcement agency is full of a bunch of immature little whiners who can't sit still for a mandatory workshop, well let's just say I wouldn't trust them to pay attention to something like accurately filling out a report or other routine things that aren't exciting but nevertheless vital to to profession. Let's just hope it is only your experience and the filtering system for becoming a police officer is not so broken that it stocks the profession full of people who don't see the importance of these seminars and can't focus long enough to get through them. Either that, or the meetings are worthless. As you teach them, perhaps you can tell me which is the case. :shrug: You certainly aren't doing your profession any favors with this anecdote.

I explained above how higher pay incentivizes the system, even at the cost of rewarding a few who don't deserve it along the way. This is a natural side effect of change meant to improve the structure as a whole. That is only for existing teachers; the real filtering would begin with the subsequent hiring of new candidates as well as giving incentive for existing teachers of excellence not to leave the profession, which is a HUGE problem. Considering the turnover rate for teachers in the most vulnerable regions, it wouldn't take long for the "weak" to get weeded out.

You can wallow in your "incredulity" all you want. I have said nothing false about law enforcement; when it comes down to it YES they ARE there voluntarily. There are no laws demanding their presence and they accepted the necessity for attending these classes when they decided to go to Academy.

I am sorry you were conditioned to swallow the corporatization of public education. I tire of arguing with someone who refuses to look beyond his own experience and narrow view, so good night.

[paulsby]

75. sorry

"I don't care how salty that 30 year veteran is, he's an ADULT and I presume he wants to continue being a cop. As such, he should be a big boy and sit through his class. I'm surprised you would tolerate such attitude in your classes. "

people in the REAL world often don't act how they should.

regardless, all your statements aside, you fail to acknowledge that your previous statements were wrong, in that (for example) MANY people in the classes do not want to be there, and are hostile and/or passive aggressive to the process.

it's kind of charming in a strange way, actually.

but i find this typical when you are presented with evidence that you made false claims. you don't acknowledge they were false.

you falsely claimed i was not trained in diverse pedagogical techniques, and you made false claims about the "voluntariness" of those in the classes.

and you have yet to acknowledge that.

and you have demonstrated that you are the one with the narrow view, not me.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

76. The assembly line compensation scheme for educators is dying

It has education and seniority as the primary determinants for compensation. That is not a professional approach and its breaking down. Teacher unions need to get out ahead of this before they and their members are steamrolled. Its coming soon...like it or not.

Additionally supply and demand has a heavy role. There are *lots* of liberal arts majors and few jobs (outside of teaching). Those with technical, scientific, or applied science degrees are much more in demand. A masters in physics trumps a masters in philosophy in the market. and will for the foreseeable future.

[sense]

98. Are you blind?

I think you're failing to consider that you could be wrong and you're doing the thing you're accusing everyone of. I agree with Paulsby. Put down the broad brush.

[liberalhistorian]

87. I'm equally appalled, but I'm sure as fuck not the least

bit surprised. My parents were teachers, as were most of their friends, and I grew up watching them dealing with this shit almost on a daily basis. No matter how hard they worked or how dedicated they were, it didn't matter, they still got all the blame and no respect, appreciation or compensation commensurate with the job. Everyone assumed I'd go into education as well, but I sure as fuck had no intention of going through what they went through for forty years of their lives. And now my stepdad is in a nursing home with early-onset dementia and mom has to give most of his pension to Medicaid. Bloodsucking businessmen get far more respect and money than teachers ever do or ever will and it's complete and utter fucking bullshit.

[paulsby]

88. false

polling data does not lie

as i mentioned in another post in this thread...

"Bloodsucking businessmen get far more respect "

in poll after poll, teachers are rated amongst the top professions (as are cops) in terms of respect.

MUCH higher than businessmen.

[liberalhistorian]

92. Bullshit. Pretty it up all you want,

but there's a huge disconnect between what people claim and the way they actually feel and act regarding teachers. People will get up in arms about the least little benefit or salary increase for teachers and not bat an eyelash at bloated businessmen, athletes or CEO's garnering huge salaries and perks for little work. I've seen it up close and personal all of my life, so go try to sell that elsewhere.

[paulsby]

94. right,. that's logical

people are all lying about their beliefs during blind polling.


lol.

geez, the amount of cognitive dissonance sometimes is amazing to me.

evidence trumps your unsupported beliefs.

you sound like a creationist when confronted with the fossil record "it's all a lie. my beliefs are otherwise"

data trumps your opinion.

hth

[tonysam]

108. Yep.

I can't argue with you there.

[paulsby]

126. you could if u dared to use logic, reason, and responded to data

poll after poll after poll explicitly rejects the OP's claim.

you choose to ignore actual evidence in preference to prejudice.

reminds me of a creationist responding to the fossil record by citing his beliefs.

sorry. data trumps your unsupported beliefs.

at least in the "reality based community"

hth

[sense]

99. I, for one

am really happy you didn't go into teaching. My children heard enough of that limited vocabulary from the other kids.

[sense]

97. You are making stuff up!

You're trying to lump all teachers together and everyone who has anything to say except "support our teachers and the NEA". No one is against all teachers. No one is against all unions. It's a discussion. People are trying to to add their thoughts and ideas to it and you're just trying to shut everyone down.

[FLyellowdog]

41. Alexander!!!! There you are!!!

How about "The Teacher from the Black Lagoon"?

Seriously, I'm thinking that people who have never ever (and never ever would) teach are the ones who are reaching out to these extreme ideas and causing those of us who have taught to feel dumped on.

I've been there. Wish I'd made more money, but then who doesn't? I received excel awards and many recognitions for the work I did...but I'm not sure that receiving more pay than my colleagues would have made for a comfortable working environment. Maybe it's just me.

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

62. Very good points.

:hi:

[sense]

93. You're missing everyone else's point

because you're so quick to paint them with the same "you all hate teachers and unions" brush.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

71. Whenever I hear the NEA say they are working for the children, I cringe

They are their to support their members...

[paulsby]

89. bingo

i work as a cop, and we have a union, and national representative org's.

they work for US, and support US, not the citizenry at large.

the NEA no more works for the children, than the autoworkers unions work for the car buyers.

unions work for their constituency.

[rcrush]

13. Just because someone criticizes the union

doesnt mean we want the union broken up. Maybe it wouldnt be too much to ask if they do something about useless people that never get fired? My highschool had plenty of them and no one seemed to give a shit.

I support unions but they arent perfect and could use some shaking up.

[paulsby]

14. exactly

unions are an advocacy group - and they advocate for THEIR members, and often the least among their members.

sometimes, this advocacy means that they are arguing against the public good.

that's simply a fact.

the same is true of management. they argue generally for THEIR side.

the system works pretty well, because there are parties with opposing interests counteracting each other.

neither side is right all the time. not to mention that results (like in politics) are often about tradeoffs, and how we weigh the relative importance of them

it's like a defense attorney. their job is not (usually) to argue for what is best for society, or justice, or any of that. their job is to be a zealous advocate for their client - whether or not their client is guilty as fuck.

that is a good system imo. just don't pretend that one side is all goodness and light.

[madfloridian]

16. So this is just another teacher bashing thread?

Obama done good this week in calling attention to all the bad teachers. :shrug:

[rcrush]

18. What?

Why is it not ok to call out lazy people who dont do anything in their job? Who is saying ALL TEACHERS ARE BAD?

[paulsby]

19. nobody. it's his strawman

critiquing a system that does not incentivize excellence, or pointing out that some teachers suck is BASHING TEACHERS.

advocating for change is BAD BAD BAD cause it's BASHING TEACHERS.

which of course is nonsensical.

i frigging dig most teachers, and as a whole i totally respect what they do.

it doesn't mean i won't argue for intelligent change, or support obama's decision to consider merit pay

[madfloridian]

21. I am not a he. I am seeing another attack thread on teachers.

I think it can be credited to President Obama and Arne Duncan, the propaganda, that is

Have your fun.

But at least take time to look at my profile. I do deserve some respect for my years of teaching whether you like teachers or not.

[paulsby]

24. as i said,

i frigging dig teachers. cops too!

we both rule.

fwiw, i've got a fair smattering of both in my family

but critiquing, suggesting positive change, and pointing out that some teachers are doing a poor job is not an "attack thread" on teachers.

[madfloridian]

29. Please go ahead and figure it out.

I am so glad you "frigging" dig teachers and cops

Thanks, Obama.

[rcrush]

27. This is what I get for coming into GD

I didnt say I dont like teachers so dont tell me I dont. I wouldnt disrespect you for being a teacher for many years (assuming you actually cared about your job, there are some who dont). All I said was maybe we could do somethng about BAD TEACHERS (yes there are some bad ones out there, I know its hard to believe). Why is that so wrong?

[madfloridian]

31. Thanks, President Obama and Arne Duncan

for calling attention to all the bad teachers.

:shrug:

[rcrush]

33. ok

You're right there are no bad teachers everything is ok. I'll go back to sleep now.

[paulsby]

36. frigging amazing

are teachers so holy and perfect that pointing out that some teachers are bad, and there are some example of institutionalization of mediocrity amongst schools?

heck, i'm a cop and love cops. but i'm not going to pretend that there aren't some bad cops out there, and some examples of institutionalized mediocrity amongst police departments.

and here's another similarity. bad cops, like bad teachers, can have significant impact on a lot of people, including the most vulnerable amongst us.

[madfloridian]

37. My opinion is dismissed with the words "friggin amazing".

That's makes me feel so good.

[sense]

102. You are being dismissed because

you refuse to listen to what people are saying and just keep on your rant, no matter what. Read the posts!

[etherealtruth]

56. I tried to compare the teaching profession to the nursing profession

... in an other thread. It did not go well and seemed to really, really upset some of the teacher's here. I'm struggling to understand the inability to discuss any criticisms of teachers .... but, my guess is that the teachers that are responding in a perceived hyper-sensitive way are people that have worked very hard in their chosen profession, have made great sacrifices to do their jobs well, have worked in some less than ideal conditions and feel that their hard work, dedication and sacrifice have been appreciated by no one. I have no doubt that to the people that should really matter to them (their former and present students) they are respected, appreciated and valued.

By the way I understand your comparison to the police and the points you tried to make.

I also understand that you, like me, respect and value teachers and the job they do.

As I said in my subject line ... I tried to compare teachers to nurses ... it did not go well (sadly, most nurses have not been a part of strong and/or effective unions).

[paulsby]

58. cheers

yes, i see these analogies as apt.

fwiw, if i had the same kneejerk defensiveness to criticism of MY PROFESSION, as some people have of teaching profession, i would have lasted about 10 minutes here.

[etherealtruth]

63. If you were this sensitive I'd have given you less than a minute ;)

By the way you brought up some of the concerns I did ... same reaction. I'm letting it go. Its only serving to upset folk.

I ended up changing professions ... when I say I work in environmental consulting no one knows what the hell I do ... thank God.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

78. Nurses are much more suited to assemply line compensation structure than teachers

yes they indeed have a vastly lower rate of unionization and overall success in negotiations. However, they are getting better at it.

[etherealtruth]

80. I would agree with your subject line comparison

... with regard to nurses working in "the hospital." I'm not so sure about nurses working in public and community health, though.

I left the profession years ago to raise my family, I do hope you are right about nurses doing a better job of organizing.

[sense]

101. So we should all ignore the bad teachers?

You might want to note that I said "all the bad" not all are bad.....

[liberalhistorian]

109. Please spend a couple of weeks in a classroom

being totally responsible for all classes in that classroom and THEN come back and spout your "expert" opinions. People who've never been on the other side of the desk in a classroom are usually the ones who think they know everything and anything and have all the "answers". They're also the ones who often have no real clue what they're talking about. I've been to the doctor many times, but does that then qualify me to be able to decide how they should do their jobs? No, I don't think so.

[sense]

100. Could you pay attention?

So many people are trying to tell you things and you're so stuck in your belief, you can't pull your head out!

Just keep posting the same mindless drivel and don't listen to anyone else...... that'll be helpful and informative. Way to contribute.

[elleng]

23. I will say just this:

We here have no interest in breaking unions, but would like to be able to have informative discussions concerning difficult issues.

It IS hard to fire teachers; and cops, and other public 'servants.' Thats just the truth.

We should do our best to try to deal with the consequential problems.

[madfloridian]

25. No, it is really is not that hard to fire teachers. Obama made it sound...

like there are a lot of bad teachers. there are not.

It's a shame.

But you guys have your fun.

[paulsby]

38. define "a lot"

there certainly are some bad teachers.

and some bad cops.

heck, i know a few bad cops. not criminally bad, just mediocre as fuck and lazy as hell.

i've seen guys who worked midnight shift for years, with almost no DUI arrests. you've gotta have your eyes closed, or be sitting in a parking lot and doing crossword puzzles all shift, if you aren't at least occasionally arresting DUI's on midnight shift.

are there "a lot" of bad cops?

depends on how you define a lot.

i think teachers, like cops, are generally good frigging people, want to serve the public, and do a good job.

but not all of them

[elleng]

96. madfl, don't give me this 'you guys' stuff.

I have 2 daughters whom I've been educating for 24 years. Neither President Obama nor you can provide me with more information about U.S. schools, teachers or education than I already have.

I've spent time in schools and among teachers and administrators, public, private and parochial, in different jurisdictions, and I know that in many places it is very hard to fire bad teachers. There are bad teachers and administrators as there are bad doctors and plumbers; people are people.

If any of us close our eyes to any of the facts, our view of any particular system will be skewed. THAT is a fact.

[madfloridian]

119. I educated for over 30 years, took hours of courses in various fields...

So I guess I can have an opinion.

You are being misleading about my views. Yes, there some bad people in every field. I never argued that.

You are not listening to what I am saying.

[elleng]

121. You certainly have an opinion, and you are entitled to it.

I listen to what you say, and on occasion I disagree with it.

I've educated as a parent for 24 years, and watched carefully as my daughters were educated in schools and out. I also listened carefully as my parents educated me; they did so as mother and father and lawyer, and I learned something about following facts and seeking logic. As lawyers, I and my family continue to do so. We are careful NOT to mislead.

[XemaSab]

20. I had a teacher who was physically and verbally abusive

and once held a girl on detention so long she peed her pants.

Was she fired?

Not soon enough.

[EFerrari]

30. Without trying to minimize that in any way, aren't there psychos

in every field? :shrug:

It's so weird how here on DU all of a sudden -- despite all that we know about how the Republicans have been gunning for our schools, TEACHERS are the problem. :shrug:

[madfloridian]

34. It is a planned thing.

To push Obama's plan and Duncan's plan for an easier way to get charter and other schools in place of real public schools that keep all students.

It is heartbreaking.

[paulsby]

40. ok so you are against charter schools

ok. i strongly disagree, but that's an opinion i can respect.

[XemaSab]

44. I think it's important to talk about education

Most people's education is done by teachers, so when people are talking about their own educations, it's easy to talk about good and bad teachers instead of bad parents, students, and administrators.

[EFerrari]

47. Agreed. And our teachers are the linchpin of our system, imho.

The thing is, it's too easy to hang problems on teachers and since we all had them, too easy to put anecdotal stories out as representing the whole.

Any project that starts out trying to blame someone isn't going to succeed, imo.

[paulsby]

50. and so are

and cops are the lynchpin of our criminal justice system.

would you apply the same logic about it being "too easy to hang problems" on them?

[EFerrari]

52. Of course. What is your point?

[paulsby]

53. my point

is that neither cops nor teachers are above criticism, that some cops suck, that some teachers suck, that both civil service systems generally do not incentivize excellence, and that reforms can be made to both systems to improve teachers, better reward them for excellence, and better monitor poor teachers.

[EFerrari]

55. You do know, right, that teaching is one of the oldest professions.

What ever gave you the idea that teachers are not monitored or evaluated?

That's just bizarre.

[paulsby]

57. i didn't say that

nice strawman.

i said they could be BETTER monitored, such that excellence could be better rewarded and poor performance could be better dealt with.

the same could be said for my profession, fwiw.

which is also quite old.


us being the "NEW CENTURIONS" and all

[EFerrari]

59. Maybe I misunderstood when you said that teachers weren't above criticism.

So no, there was no strawman there.

[paulsby]

67. ok.

i don't see the ambiguity there.

teachers AREN't above criticism.

much like cops or nurses. some suck, some are excellent, and some are just ok.

[EFerrari]

68. No one is arguing that teachers are above criticism.

[paulsby]

69. but some are doing the functional equivalent

by equating criticism and calls for reform as "attacking teachers" or "scapegoating teachers"

etc.

try reading this thread.

[madfloridian]

70. Some are giving false info that teachers are not formally evaluated.

That is the problem with this thread.

That is what happened this week with the presentation of the education program. It left many with the impression that teachers are not doing well.

When those of us who are/were teachers try to present the facts that teachers have formal evaluation requirements,our opinions are dismissed.

This has been a bad week for teachers at DU who really care about their profession. We have been put down almost constantly.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

79. What is the impact and effect of the evaluations?

Its basically and up check or down check. Unless there is a serious problem, there is *NO* impact of the evaluations. The marginal, mediocre and superior all get to continue with no impact to compensation or rewards. Only those below passing get any impact, which is then automatically fought.

Sorry, that is not a professional evaluation by any standard.

[madfloridian]

86. No, it is not.

They are not up and down checks.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

117. Then what are they and how to they influence things?

They certainly have been in the past where I have taught and were that in the schools my kids attend. Basically a binary event

[sense]

111. No, that isn't what happened this week

Try to take a step back and perhaps even re-read the posts of the people you're railing against. Don't be the brick wall we're beating our heads against.

[EFerrari]

77. It's more like objecting to the idea that you can fix the food chain

by starting in the middle.

[paulsby]

81. actually, the logical fallacy here

is the assumption that criticism of SOME teachers, and of the system in general means that all the blame is being placed on teachers, and that "fixing" teachers is how to fix the problem.

it's pretty clear there are problems in the administration, for example.

iow, just because somebody gives some advice for how to improve teacher accountability and incentives DOES NOT imply that the person is saying the problem rests solely with teachers (not by a long shot), or that the system will be "fixed" solely through actions that regard teachers.

iow, there is a false assumption that by recommending changes to X, within a system of x,y, and z, that the person recommending the changes is implying that X is the sole cause of the problems or that improving x ALONE will fix it.

nothing of the sort.

[EFerrari]

82. Baloney. Teachers have been fingered as "the problem"

and I hope the Obama administration can recover from their scapegoating of one of our most valuable national resources.

[paulsby]

83. ah, the "scapegoating" meme

thanks for confirming my prediction in another post that people would continue to claim obama was "scapegoating" teachers.


oh noes!

[EFerrari]

122. And? "People" have this remarkable ability to observe the obvious.

:)

[paulsby]

125. people have the remarkable ability

to play victim.

obama et al aren't scapegoating anybody

[sense]

112. Absolutely!

[tonysam]

114. That Ain't the Half of It.

The worst bosses I ever had were school administrators.

[sense]

110. Most people are putting out anecdotal stories to illustrate their

points, not to insinuate that all teachers are bad. Why are so many unable to read what is written?

[EFerrari]

123. Plenty of people take their experience for the whole which is not the same

as illustrating a point with a story. I have no problems with reading, thanks.

[sense]

105. Teacher's are in a different profession than all others,

although the cop analogy works pretty well.

What is so hard for you to get? They have our defenseless children and they're teaching them. Don't you care what they're learning?

[EFerrari]

124. Excuse me? I don't think I understand your question.

[sense]

129. I was referring to your post below:

"Without trying to minimize that in any way, aren't there psychos

in every field?

It's so weird how here on DU all of a sudden -- despite all that we know about how the Republicans have been gunning for our schools, TEACHERS are the problem."

************


Yes, there are psychos in every field, but teachers have our children, so it much more important to weed out the psychos among the teaching profession than many others.

[dysfunctional press]

84. make teachers take random breathalyzers- if they show up drunk, they're fired.

tenure or not.

[etherealtruth]

85. I wonder ...

... are teachers subjected to random drug tests? We are ....by "we" I mean professionals .... geologists, engineers and environmental scientists.

[paulsby]

91. depends on state laws

for example, in WA state, cops cannot be subject to random drug tests.

there must be "reasonable suspicion". same goes for teachers.

state constitutions offer different levels of privacy (beyond those guaranteed by the federal one), as one reason.

[dysfunctional press]

118. in chicago- cops get a 30-day notice before a 'random drug test'...

however- if they are involved in a traffic accident on duty, they are subject to an immediate drug test.

[paulsby]

120. that would be illegal here

we have higher constitutional protections on privacy than illinois, based on our state constitution.

i used to work in a state that had true "random" drug testing.

but not here, for govt. employees.

private employers can of course require them as a condition of employment, random, etc.

[etherealtruth]

104. Here's what I hear from friends and family

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-05-06-teachers-tenure_N.htm
"Teachers are generally observed in class one or two times a year by busy administrators. In many districts, tenured teachers aren't observed annually."

"Even when they occur, teachers say their evaluations are rarely rigorous."

http://www.9news.com/news/education/article.aspx?storyid=111578
"Quality teaching is the top reform initiative for Denver Public Schools, yet the district's worst teachers are rarely formally removed from the classroom."

http://www.wkrg.com/national/article/getting_rid_of_bad_teachers/13640/
"Are you a parent who thinks it's hard for
schools to get bad teachers out of the classroom? A new survey says
there are teachers who would agree with you.
More than half of teachers polled believe it's too difficult to
weed out ineffective teachers who have tenure. Nearly half say they
personally know such a teacher."

These are the things I hear from friends in the teaching profession ... they are people that wish to strengthen their profession.

[tonysam]

106. Wrong. It is VERY Easy for Teachers to Be Fired.

The guy you had probably had political connections or some other factor which prevented disciplinary action. But don't hand me any nonsense that it is "hard" to fire teachers because they have "tenure." Repeat, "tenure" isn't lifetime employment--all it says is teachers can't be disciplined or fired without a hearing. The hearings are a JOKE. Arbitration is a completely rigged process, whereby the teacher cannot call witnesses, limited in what evidence to introduce, while the other side can throw everything including the kitchen sink at a teacher, be lied about, slandered as mentally ill, and every single filthy bunch of crap in existence. And the arbitrator will almost ALWAYS side with the district for he or she is being paid thousands of dollars a case and wants the return business. Arbitration for individual employee cases needs to be outlawed; it is unconstitutional. Teachers cannot appeal firings once the arbitrator makes a decision. I signed the dotted line because the union's lawyers did NOT tell me I was signing away my rights.

I am one of those who was fired, supposedly for "dishonesty" and being a "liar" simply because I and a physician's assistant filled out FMLA forms wrong after I was sick for an extended period--and the district never questioned my illness, but I am sure I was fired not because I was a shitty teacher or a "liar"--all my evaluations were good--but because the district wanted to screw me out of my retirement.

Coincidentally, I had just received retirement vesting in February of 2008, just two months before my "dismissal." I believe the HR head--a true asshole--either found out I was vested or else thought I wasn't vested because I had service credit from another public agency. I was 53 years old when this happened--and that says it all.

"At-will" employees have a LOT more rights than teachers when it comes to dismissals, provided they haven't been conned into signing arbitration agreements. A cheap-assed system with union "lawyers" is no substitute for outside legal advice and advocacy.

In my case, something else has come up which the district is going to regret they ever pulled this stunt.

[sense]

113. If it was easy

we wouldn't all be here talking about this. It isn't easy and abusive teachers (not all teachers) continue on unabated because the NEA protects them at the expense of our children.

[tonysam]

115. You Are Talking to a Dismissed Teacher Here.

Don't pretend you know what you are talking about because you do NOT. You don't know what "tenure" is.

[sense]

116. I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down!

I'm glad you've been dismissed. I wouldn't want you talking to my kids like that. Just dismissing them without a thought because you're angry at someone else. Way to show us that "all" teachers deserve respect. You are doing the profession no good by representing them in this way.

[BlooInBloo]

127. There are no bad teachers...

Only bad students, bad parents, bad administration, bad government, bad luck, bad will hunting, bad mutha fucka, and bad karme.

But no bad teachers.

And even if there were, we could NEVER know it - because it's IMPOSSIBLE to measure good/bad teachers.

This is what I have learned from genius "education majors" on DU.

It's funny watching them talk.

[LWolf]

128. The problem is that

the easier you make it, the easier you also make it for teachers to be falsely accused.

Whether it's for political reasons, whether it's a parent who goes on the attack to defend a child's poor choices, teachers are easy scapegoats. Make it easy to fire them and you open the door to unwarranted attacks.

Meanwhile, it's not as if no action is taken when there is a problem. It's just not fast and clean. It doesn't give the accusers the satisfaction swift punishment or revenge does.

http://www.mobbingportal.com/rubberroom.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/10/education/10education.html