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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 10:11 AM
Original message
Chavez open to Russian strategic bombers using Venezuelan island

15:51 | 14/ 03/ 2009



MOSCOW, March 14 (RIA Novosti) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has proposed to Russia using a Venezuelan island for temporary hosting of Russian long-range aviation, a top-ranking Russian Air Force official said Saturday.

"There is such a proposal on the part of the Venezuelan president. Chavez proposed to us a whole island with an airfield that we can use for temporary basing of strategic bombers," said Maj.-Gen. Anatoly Zhikharev, the chief of the long-range aviation staff.

"If there is the relevant political decision, the island ... could be used by the Russian Air Force," Zhikharev told journalists.

He said the temporary basing opportunity could be used for air patrol missions.

<snip>

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090314/120562301.html
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Baikonour Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. In before Chavez apologists. n/t
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Apologize for this:


You first. Then I'll apologize for Chavez.
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Baikonour Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'm not saying we should have bases all around the world.
Edited on Sat Mar-14-09 10:57 AM by Baikonour
It's a money sink and it does send the wrong message to people around the world.

With that said, it's ironic that Chavez calls America a tyrant and an empire, and then allows Russian bombers to use his country. I don't know how people can defend that kind of hypocrisy.

Let's also not forget that Chavez rails against coups that America/the CIA have perpetrated on Latin America, when Chavez himself tried, and failed, to pull a coup in 1992. More hypocrisy.

In layman's terms, Chavez thinks his shit don't stink. It does.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. "I don't know how people can defend that kind of hypocrisy"
They'll defend it by being hypocritical. Russian missiles in Cuba and Venezuela are a dangerous game of chicken at a dangerous time, but that won't stop the fools from cheering on their favorite blowhards.
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Baikonour Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Well said. n/t
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. What missiles in Cuba? Are you lost in a time warp?
Edited on Sat Mar-14-09 12:47 PM by Warren Stupidity
Russia wants to be able to refuel its airplanes, just as we want to refuel ours. We do so across the planet, so it seems doing this sort of thing is not an act of belligerency, but instead a normal sort of international relationship.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. What do you suppose a "strategic bomber" carries, popcorn?
Russia and Venezuela would be turning up the heat in an already overheated world, for what reason?
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. I don't know, perhaps because Russia really hates
our pushing military bases and missile systems up against its borders?

But again, are the Russians somehow not allowed to have strategic bombers? Are their warplanes not allowed to refuel in foreign nations? By what international law is that forbidden?

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. When Chavez comes here and stages a coup against Obama
then you'll have a point. Until then, not so much.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
52. Jackaasses always neglect including any of the facts about that.
He led a coup against a filthy scum who commanded his police to fire upon protesting poor people who ran into the streets after he raised the cost of their heating fuel, and transportation far beyond their ability to afford it. Many of the police refused to obey, walked off the job, and he commanded his military to firepoint blank into the crowds of protesting poor people, killing as many as 3,000 (although his government insists it was only a few hundred) resulting in bulldozers shoving dead people into a mass grave. The date was February 27, 1989, and it was named "El Caracazo."

When that event happened, Venezuela turned a corner, and they made a decision they would NEVER allow this to happen to them again. Hugo Chavez became a national hero when he led the coup against the piece of filth Carlos Andres Perez who was later impeached.

Yet pathetic, rabid ignorant racist right-wing a-holes insist upon portraying the coup as a case of some ambitious mixed race officer deciding he'd bypass the chance of losing an election, and just take over with a coup. Idiots. Liars.
Caracazo
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For the 2005 film, see El Caracazo (film).

The caracazo or sacudón is the name given to the wave of protests, riots and looting that occurred on 27 February 1989 in the Venezuelan capital Caracas and surrounding towns. The riots — the worst in Venezuelan history — resulted in a death toll of anywhere between 275 and 3000 deaths,<1> mostly at the hands of security forces.

The word caracazo is the name of the city plus the suffix -azo, which implies a blow and/or magnitude. It could therefore be translated as something like "the Caracas smash" or "the big one in Caracas". Sacudón is from sacudir "to shake", and therefore means something along the lines of "the day that shook the country". (See Spanish nouns: Other suffixes.)

~snip~
Lead-up

In the context of the economic crisis that Venezuela had been going through since the early 1980s, President Carlos Andrés Pérez proposed to implement free-market reforms in his second presidential term (1989–1993), following the recommendations of the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Pérez belonged to the Acción Democrática (AD) party (social-democrat). This programme was known as the paquete — the "package".

Measures taken by Pérez included privatising state companies, tax reform, reducing customs duties, and diminishing the role of the state in the economy. As a result of his economic measures, petrol prices rose by 100%, and costs of public transportation rose by 30%. He also took measures to decentralize and modernise the Venezuelan political system by instituting the direct election of state governors (previously appointed by the President).

Protests and rioting

The protests and rioting began in Guarenas (a town in Miranda State, some 30 km east of Caracas) on the morning of 27 February 1989,<2> due to a steep increase in transportation costs to Caracas. They quickly spread to the capital and other towns across the country. By the afternoon, there were disturbances in almost all districts of Caracas, with shops shut and public transport not running.

In the days that followed there was widespread international media coverage of the looting and destruction. For many months, there was discussion about how something so violent could occur in Venezuela.

Overwhelmed by the looting, the government declared a state of emergency, put the city under martial law and restored order albeit with the use of force. Some people used firearms for self-defence, to attack other civilians and/or to attack the military, but the number of dead soldiers and police came nowhere near the number of civilian deaths. The repression was particularly harsh in the cerros — the poor neighbourhoods of the capital.

The initial official pronouncements said 276 people had died; however, the subsequent discovery that the government had buried civilians in mass graves and not counted those deaths raised the estimates. Unofficial estimates of the death toll go as high as 3000.<1>

Congress suspended constitutional rights, and there were several days during which the city was in chaos, with restrictions, food shortages, militarisation, burglaries, and the persecution and murder of innocent people.

Consequences

The clearest consequence of the caracazo was political instability. The following February, the army was called to contain similar riots in Puerto La Cruz and Barcelona, and again in June, when rising of transportation costs ended in riots in Maracaibo and other cities. The free-market reforms programme was modified. In 1992 there were two attempted coups d'état, in February and November. Carlos Andrés Pérez was accused of corruption and removed from the presidency. Hugo Chávez, an organiser of one of the coups, was found guilty of sedition and incarcerated. However, he was subsequently pardoned by Pérez's successor, Rafael Caldera, and went on to be elected president after him.

In 1998, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights condemned the government's action, and referred the case to the Inter-American Court of Human Rights. In 1999, the Court heard the case and found that the government had committed violations of human rights, including extrajudicial killings. The Venezuelan government, by then headed by Chávez, did not contest the findings of the case, and accepted full responsibility for the government's actions. <2>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caracazo

http://www.bolivar.se.nyud.net:8090/bilder/caracazo2.jpg http://www.bolivar.se.nyud.net:8090/bilder/caracazo1.jpg

http://www.bolivar.se.nyud.net:8090/bilder/caracazo3.jpg http://www.soberania.org.nyud.net:8090/Images/caracazo_4.jpg

http://www.aldeaeducativa.com.nyud.net:8090/images/caracazo04.jpg http://photos1.blogger.com.nyud.net:8090/img/170/5439/320/caracazo2.jpg http://servicioskoinonia.org.nyud.net:8090/martirologio/fotos/f425.jpg


Just invest a moment of your sacred time you would ordinarily devote to trying to mock people who do their homework on U.S./Latin American history, and look up "El Caracazo," or "Carlos Andres Perez," the clown you hold up as the injured President that mean old commie Hugo Chavez lead a coup attempt.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted on Saturday, 03.07.09
Families demand answers about '89 Venezuela massacre victims

As the anniversary of the 1989 Caracazo massacre approaches, memories of the killings are still fresh in relatives' minds as they push Hugo Chávez's government for answers and closure.



Aura Liscano, left, and Hilda Perez, right, hold
photos of Venezuelans who died on February 27,
1989. Both women lost relatives in the massacre.
GABRIEL OSORIO/FREELANCER

Special to The Miami Herald
CARACAS -- It took years for Aura Liscano to learn the truth about her brother's death.

Hours after going out to play basketball and dominoes in the Cota 905 district where the family still lives, he was gunned down in one of the worst massacres in recent Latin American history.

''There was a room at the morgue full of corpses,'' said Liscano, recalling her family's search for her brother, 21-year-old José Miguel.

``Some were hung up like sides of beef. My older brother had to search through a pile of bodies four or five high, but José Miguel wasn't there.''

This week marks the 20th anniversary of the Caracazo, a time when Liscano joined dozens of distraught relatives trying to locate loved ones killed after then Venezuelan President Carlos Andrés Pérez declared a state of emergency to deal with riots and looting sparked by a package of austerity measures.
More:
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/story/937108.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The President, Carlos Andres Perez, who created this massacre DOES keep a home in Miami, as well as New York.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com.nyud.net:8090/images/2004/07/cap.jpg

Former Venezuelan President
Carlos Andres Perez during a
party in his honor celebrated
in Miami.
Credit: Conexiones

http://cache.daylife.com.nyud.net:8090/imageserve/00nc0Pm2kd7hr/610x.jpg

8 months ago: Cecilia Matos, wife of Venezuela's former President Carlos
Andres Perez, holds up a family picture in her Miami condo, Tuesday, June 17, 2008.


He was impeached for corruption. Cecilia Matos was his secretary/mistress at the time of El Caracazo massacre.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~snip~
February 27th 1989
The Caracazo 19 years later people's consciousness keeps awake

Caracas, Feb 27 ABN.- Nineteen years after a people's consciousness awoke, Venezuelans understand every time more what happened on February 27th 1989, when occurred what has been called sacudón or Caracazo, tragic and painful social
outbreak in Venezuela, which meant the beginning of changes in the country.

There have passed 19 years since that tragic day which plunged into mourning several Venezuelan families. Nevertheless, at that moment started the awake of
the men and women who are today building the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela towards the XXI century socialism.

The Caracazo is the name given to the massacre organized by Carlos Andrés Perez's administration against demonstrators who had created a strong wave of protests and looting on February 27th 1989, which began in Guarenas (a town in
Miranda State near to the capital) and spread to the Venezuelan capital, Caracas.

The word Caracazo comes from the name of Caracas, city where some of the events took part, as reminiscence of another event occurred several years before in Colombia: the bogotazo.

People from Caracas and other surrounding cities went out to the streets on February 27th 1989. Riots and looting seemed to be out of control. The anger restrained during several years caused the explosion before the measurements
announced by Carlos Andrés Pérez, who started his second presidential term kneeling before the International Monetary Fund.

~snip~
Caracazo consequences

The repression unleashed against the people did not stop people's aspiration to change their reality. For that reason, they supported the military uprising on February 4th 1992, headed by lieutenant colonel Hugo Chávez Frías.

For now and forever will be paid tribute to those who fell at the Caracazo, and for now and forever Venezuela will say that the people's consciousness awoke forever a February 27th 1989.

The the Inter-American Court of Human Rights condemned Pérez government's actions and the State committed to compensate the victims, fact partially fulfilled in 2004 with those victims who were represented by COFAVIC, a human rights organization.

However, by the end of 2006, the administration of president Hugo Chávez Frías, through the Ministry of Interior and Justice, announced mechanisms to compensate also the victims who had no access to the Inter-American Court.

In order to spread the events of that bad time and to pay homage to those who fell, the famous filmmaker Román Chalbaud shot a film in reference to the events occurred on February 27th 1989, titled El Caracazo, which was released in
Venezuelan movie at 2005.

This film deals with a film adaptation of this chapter from the Venezuelan contemporary history, from which all Venezuelans have a different and unforgettable anecdote to tell.
http://www.abn.info.ve/noticia.php?articulo=121812&lee=17

~~~~~~~~~~~
~snip~
These testimonies, narrated 20 years after the social outbreak known as the Caracazo, gather the repression of the Army and the police against the people, who went out to the streets to protest the economic measures implemented by the CAP Administration, the hoarding of staple food and the disproportionate increase in prices.

Four million bullets were shot against an unarmed people, in accordance with a research carried out by the Venezuelan Jesuits' SIC magazine (Seminario Interdiocesano Caracas - Caracas Interdiocesan Seminary).

The CAP package deal

On January 16 1989, Carlos Andres Perez took office for second time, warning Venezuelans that he had received a country n bankrupt and that it was needed to “get the belt tightened.”

An article published by SIC magazine, on March 1989, reads that President Perez's inauguration gave Venezuelans an image hard to digest, since “the foretold and needed austerity was conspicuously absent,” as well as the announced economic measures to be implemented.

Part of the package deal of the CAP Administration in 1989 established free market pricing, increase in oil prices (in a 100%), in electric power and telephone services (50%), as well as the elimination of subsidies and exchange controls.

The package also envisaged additional debts with the International Monetary Fund (IMF), importation restrictions and export incentives, among other measures, which impact would be compensated by a 30% wage increase for the public sector, extensible for the private sector due to agreements to be bargained.

Such measures were expected to submit the economy to the market forces, in which prices would be determined by the interaction of supply and demand. The sovereignty of the national economic decisions would depend on the IMF.

“The suitable package for the impoverished sectors in Venezuela. You do not need to be too clever to foresee the social consequences of these measures: increase in poverty and worsening of the already shocking social differences in the country,” reported the leading article of SIC of January, February 1989.

Days before the social outbreak

Waiting for the price freedom, industrialists and traders had hoarded some essential goods. For the two first months of 1989, the main headlines of the national media highlighted the absence of milk, coffee, salt, rice, sugar, toilet paper, cleanser and oil from the shelf of supermarkets.

“Five hours to buy two can of popular milk,” was one of the headlines showed during those days in a national newspaper.

Added to this situation of hoarding, the murder of an student from the Universidad Central de Venezuela (UCV) in the hands of two officers of the metropolitan police led to a wave of protests in that university.
http://www.abn.info.ve/noticia.php?articulo=121812&lee=17
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. I don't know how to break this to you but
American bad acts don't negate the bad acts of other nations.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I do know how to break this to you
Having temper tantrums about other nations having the capability to project their military forces around the world is hypocritical bullshit. If we can do it, then they can do it. If we find this sort of behavior objectionable, then we ought to stop doing it.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. uh, sorry, Mr. Stupidity but no one was having a "temper tantrum"
and the argument that because others do it, it's ok, is about as stupid as it comes.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. The argument is that there is nothing wrong with it.
The russians wish to refuel their warplanes, just as we refuel ours at many bases around the planet. What exactly is wrong with that?
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. They are both wrong
This latest move just makes it worse.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. There has been no move. n/t
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Retired AF Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
48. Actually we can refuel our warplanes
around the planet without ever having to land on a foreign based base.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Well yes, but we also maintain airbases around the planet.
The point is that either this is acceptable behavior by nations or it is not. If it is not, then one has to ask why are we doing it. If it is acceptable and normal, and it appears to be so to me, then the Russians are free to land and refuel their planes under any agreement they choose to negotiate with the Venezuelans.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
57. and we have a winner!
thank you!

this place lacks common sense so often
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
4. This planet really sucks
no, scratch that, it's just people
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. EEEK!! The Axis of Evil! The Evil Empire! Falling Dominoes!!
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. so this isn't a news story?
I posted it without comment, though I condemn the U.S. missile shield bullshit in Poland and this.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. Hell, I was going to post it myself.
Yes. It is a news story. The implications of Russian moves into the Caribbean are minimal saber rattling in response to the much vaunted and completely obvious attempts by the U.S.A. to apply pressure on Russia and NATO by installing a "protective" missile shield encircling Russia.

It is also obvious that Chavez and Castro are going to respond favorably to it for their own interests.

Is it something to worry about? Only in the sense that mutual saber rattling can get out of hand and "messages" can be misinterpreted by the bosses.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. The real story here is that Lula of Brazil is meeting with Obama
right about now at some conference and Lula is the go between for Chavez. So there has been the usual back and forth in the media that precedes such events.

The other item of interest this weekend is the election in El Salvador. The right wing nutcases there have warned that the lefty is an agent of Chavez -- which may be a good sign because every time the conservatives have done this recently, the lefty has won. :)
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Yep. But, scary bogeyman stories sell more cornflakes.
And, give the politicians handy rationales for throwing more billions at the Pentagon.

The good old days of American hegemony(aka neo-lib colonialism) in Latin America are fading fast.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. The Russians are coming!
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Anyone who doesn't see the ratcheting up of tensions
between the U.S. and Russia as a matter of potential concern, is either foolish or being deliberately obtuse.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. It's people who refuse to take off their ideological blinders
for one moment and consider the real world implications. Everything is the equivalent of a big, stupid football game.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. What implications? First, this will not happen. Second, if it does happen,
it won't matter. We have all sorts of installations in Colombia to counter balance whatever the Russians park in Venezuela.

Those are your "real world" implications.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Then Chavez is not against imperialism, he's just against US imperialism.
If I remember correctly Russia is not exactly the USSR anymore, and it is in fact a kleptocracy. It is supposedly the very thing that Chavez has been fighting against.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. So, now the argument is that CHAVEZ isn't ideological enough?
:)

I really can't say. There's not enough information about this proposal to know what's going on. And it's in the context of all those other stories that say Chavez is buying or selling WMD to Iran and helping al Qaida by turning up his radio and stuff like that.


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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. There's nothing wrong with opposing US imperialism.
On the other hand using US imperialism as a bogeyman to systematically subvert the checks and balances of a constitution, is not OK. When they start assisting foreign countries who are aggressive kleptocrats, I get a little worried.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. American imperialism is not a bogeyman in Latin America.
Did you hear those two Republican congressman this week, on the House floor, threatening legal residents from El Salvador three ways to Sunday if El Salvador elects the lefty candidate?

This is Borev's take on it: House Republicans To Kill One Salvadoran Each Day Until Country Learns to Vote Right

http://www.borev.net/2009/03/house_republicans_to_kill_one.html
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. And that's why Chavez needs to control Venezuela.
I think we all know drawing Venezuela to any potential nuclear conflict is thought to be a great idea by the people.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. What in the world are you talking about? It looks like Chavez may
have offered to let Russia use one of the islands to gas up. That would likely be revenue for Venezuela if it's true and if it happens.

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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
60. ROFL........Sorry, but.....
...I just have to laugh at an American calling Russia "aggressive kleptocrats".
Russians are rank amatuers compared to us.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Even under the Obama administration,Russian bombers
in South America will not be shrugged off. It would be seen by the U.S. as a direct threat to our security and belligerent move by the Russians. Anybody who honestly believes that we would let it go because of American installations in Columbia is not cognizant of how this would really play out in the "real world".What you "wish" to believe is not the equivalent of what would really happen.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. It's "Colombia". And it will not happen. There is no benefit
to the Russians. But, don't let that stop you from telling me about my wishful thinking. lol
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. So when we established military bases in Georgia
that was a direct threat to Russia's security and a belligerent move by the United States?
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
47. DoD has had Forward Operating Locations
"military lilypads" that include 8000 ft runways on Curacao and Aruba since 2001 as part of Plan Columbia.

Original plans have scaled up the Curacao FOL and scaled down the Aruba FOL (because of local opposition).
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. Had heard of a lot of US activity around Curacao, didn't know why.... Thanks for the info. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I have an old desk here with a layer of protective gum
that I can crawl under when Chavez and the Russians attack us.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. gad, smooch away on that straw man, why don't you?
You know that I'm saying nothing of the sort. Hard to have anything but complete contempt for the kind of intellectual dishonesty in your post. Now get baCk to humping on that darling straw man of yours.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Always such a pleasure, cali.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. What are they planning to patrol?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
50. It sounds more like refueling than patrolling but
imho, it sounds more like one of those "Chavez is the devil" stories. It would surprise me if it actually happened. Chavez, along with all the other SA progressive leaders, wants better relations with the US but not at the cost of letting their countries be strip mined by Cheveron and Co. That's the real tension in the region, not the ideology.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #50
67. So very true
What you said
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
25. Good for Russia and Venezuela.
More power to them.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. I agree. Actually the bigger danger is the Russian fishing fleet. I'm not kidding.n/t
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
27. Meaningless political theater. nt
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
35. An end to military hegemony would be a good thing. nt.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
37. You know that Russia is no longer our enemy?
I would worry more about the Chinese.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. Wha? Them commies are just playing dead.
For some of us it is always 1960.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #46
61. ...or "1984".
*
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
58. they aren't?
have you been paying attention the past few years?

they certainly aren't our friends
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. 'scuse me, but nobody is our friends these days, nor have they been
in many parts of the world for as long as I have been alive and that is almost seventy years. Russia is not a problem these days.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
38. Oh no, this will make it more difficult for us to wage war on them if we decide to
How awful.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #38
51. LOL! I'll bet that this is Hugo's chess move to protect his king. n/t
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
44. Hugo Chavez is coming! Hugo Chavez is coming!!!!
:yoiks::hide::scared::hide::yoiks:

:popcorn:
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
54. Kick. n/t
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Mike 03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
55. Kick and Rec. Another very thoughtful post, much appreciated. NT
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
56. How come no one has mentioned the continual Bushwhack provocations against Venezuela
and its closest allies--Bolivia and Ecuador--over the last several years, which have included...

1. Bushwhack sponsorship of a white separatist, fascist, secession coup in Bolivia, this last September, in which the fascists rioted and murdered some 30 unarmed peasant farmers, until President Evo Morales threw the US ambassador and the DEA out of Bolivia, and all of South America stepped in to back up Morales and his elected government. Ecuador's president has said that there is a coordinated, three-country Bushite strategy for fascist secession civil war schemes--Bolivia, Venezuela, Ecuador. And there is other evidence--besides the fact that they tried it in Bolivia--to back this up--and the fact that they slaughtered 100,000 innocent people in Iraq for the same purpose--to gain control the oil (--very big reserves in Ecuador and Venezuela).

2. The Bushwhack reconstitution of the US 4th Fleet in the Caribbean, which even President Lula da Silva of Brazil considers a threat to Brazil's oil reserves. The Fleet is a recognized threat to Venezuela's northern oil coast (where there is evidence of fascist civil war plotting with the Bush-funded Colombian military, similar to the secession scheme in Bolivia). The US started harrying Venezuela's oil coast and its off-shore islands with illegal and provocative overflights and surveillance, last year.

3. Just prior to the national referendum on terms limits in Venezuela, this Feb., the rightwing opposition was caught returning from a meeting with Bushwhack diplomats in Puerto Rico, where they were soliciting $2 million dollars for the anti-referendum campaign (to prevent Chavez from running for office again). Taking foreign money for political campaigns is illegal in Venezuela. The Bushwhacks have been funding rightwing groups there for years, with millions of dollars from USAID and other budgets.

4. Early in 2008, the US/Colombia dropped ten US "smart bombs" on Ecuador's territory, and raided over the border (to slaughter 25 people in their sleep, in a temporary FARC camp), causing a major fracas in South America, including nearly starting a war between Colombia and Ecuador/Venezuela. The upshot (brokered by Chavez, whom Lula da Silva called "the great peacemaker") was that Colombia had to apologize to Ecuador and promise never to violate its territory again. But just last week, the Colombian Defense Minister, Santos (major fascist thug), claimed the right of Colombia's army to invade Venezuela on missions to kill the FARC. Colombia is a Bush Cartel client state, run by narco-thugs, who have raked in $6 BILLION in US military aid. They are major proxy troublemakers for the US.

5. A Bushbot US attorney in Miami concocted a ridiculous court case out of a CIA caper, in which a Miami mafioso named Guido Wilson took $800,000 in US cash in a suitcase into Argentina, got caught in the airport, and when he got back to Miami, claimed that the money was intended from Chavez to leftist presidential candidate Cristina Fernandez in Argentina. The US attorney invented a charge of "failing to register with the (Bushwhack) Attorney General as the agent of a foreign government" against several patsies who were "caught" trying to talk Guido out of fingering Chavez--and has been winning many headlines in the Miami Herald on the alleged corruption of leftists in South America. The absurdity of this CIA psyops plot was pointed out by Venezuela's VP, who said, "If we had wanted to give money to Fernandez, we would have carried it on Chavez's plane, with diplomatic immunity, when Chavez visited Argentina two days later." And the irony of the Miami case is that it is NOT illegal to accept foreign money for political campaigns in Argentina--so the entire case against the patsies in Miami was built on an act--had it been true--that wasn't even a crime. It was also an event--if true--that was none of the US attorney's business. And the fact that he made it a big, time-consuming part of his business, and the business of US courts, points to its origin in the long-standing Miami mafia/CIA plotting against Latin American leftists. Why would they go to all this trouble--and all the other trouble they've gone to--to smear, slander and demonize Hugo Chavez, and anyone who allies with him. (He is close allies with Fernandez who basically told the Bushwhacks to fuck off, when they tried to arm-twist her away from alliance with Chavez.)

This latter incident (#5) illustrates both the lengths that the Bushwhacks have gone to, to destroy Venezuela's democracy, and why they failed. Chavez has never been more popular, within Venezuela, and throughout the region-- because he is genuine, and the people who have been demonizing him are assholes, and greedbags, and power-mongers about whom there is nothing good that can be said. Nothing! But that does NOT mean that they are not dangerous--as the one million dead people in Iraq could testify to, if they were still among the living.

The Chavez government has accomplished all that they have accomplished--and their economic, social and democratic achievements are very impressive--despite continued Bushwhack provocations, demonization, coups attempts and other evil scheming. The evil schemes have included denying US business to any company that sells any military equipment to Venezuela. So, to replace rifles, plane parts and other necessities, Venezuela was compelled to seek contracts with countries who wouldn't bow to US-Bushwhacks, including Russia.

Is it any wonder that Chavez and his government feel vulnerable to potential US attack? Their oil reserves are a "sitting duck" to the likes of Cheney and Rumsfeld, located on Venezuela's Caribbean coast--where the US 4th Fleet is now roaming--adjacent to Colombia, whose Defense Minister has stated that he does not respect Venezuela's sovereignty, and near the very islands where Russian jets might be re-fueling. Should we wonder at Chavez's invitation to the Russians to engage in naval maneuvers in the Caribbean, during the Bush-Obama transition (--considering that the CIA chose the Eisenhower-Kennedy transition in which to try to trap Kennedy into a war on Cuba--the infamous "Bay of Pigs" fiasco)?

Who started these hostilities? Not Chavez. They are entirely the work of the Bush Junta, starting in 2002 with their support for the violent rightwing coup in which Chavez was kidnapped, and the Constitution, the courts, the national assembly and all civil rights were suspended. They hate Chavez for surviving their filthy coup and for having the overwhelming support of the Venezuela people. And they are no doubt still plotting against him--and now have billions of dollars stolen from us, private armies created at our expense, bought and paid for operatives and death squads all over South America, and probably moles within our military and intelligence groups, who will do their bidding. Exxon Mobil left Venezuela in a huff, when Chavez required a 60/40 split of the oil profits for Venezuela's social programs, and they are seething with hatred of Chavez. They went into a London court and tried to seize $12 billion in Venezuela's assets--and lost. There are plenty of resources and plenty of Bushwhacky motives to conduct a private oil war in South America, launched from Colombia, which they might try to draw Obama into. Rumsfeld alludes to this very scenario in an op-ed in the Washington Post of 12/1/07. Now, think again why Chavez would have allied with Russia. Has he not been pushed into it?

Chavez has been working very hard, with Lula da Silva and others, to create the new South American common market, UNASUR--formalized last year--for which da Silva has proposed a common defense. That common defense is not up and running yet, and Chavez has the responsibility of protecting UNASUR's northern flank, and Venezuela's oil. That is what is occurring here: peaceful South America has been threatened, and they have only one enemy--the US and its uglier corporate monsters.
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
59. Reaping the Benefits Of G.W. Bush Non-Diplomacy...
For 8 long years we pissed off the the rest of the civilized world. Is this any surprise what is going on now?
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
62. So what?
Long Range Russian Aviation poses absolutely NO THREAT to the security of the US.

Why do so many get their panties in a bunch over Chavez?
Chavez was elected and re-elected by super majorities in transparent, open, internationally verified elections with a 55% audit.

Venezuela belongs to the Venezuelans.
It is really none of our business.

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-14-09 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Yes, and the sooner Americans want to live according to their claims
of being democratic, and recognize other nations who practice the same democracy, even though it doesn't suit the corporate interests in those nations, the better off we will be in the long run.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
65. Hugo Chavez Denies Offering Russians Permanent Bomber Base
Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 09:03 AM by bigtree
March 16, 2009

(ChattahBox)–Venezuelan Strongman, Hugo Chavez denied recent claims made by the Russians, that he offered them a permanent bomber base, while speaking during his Sunday radio and TV address. Chavez claims instead, he recently spoke to Russian president, Dmitri Medvedev offering the Russians bomber landing rights in Venezuela, if required. What is not clear is: whether the Russian Military was speaking out of turn, perhaps after a night of heavy vodka drinking, or if they were taking an opportunity to tweak the U.S.,or both. The pentagon, when asked of the controversy, stated the U.S. doesn’t respond to hypotheticals.

What is clear, is that these recent statements made by the Russians, come just two weeks before U.S. President Barak Obama and Russian President Dmitri Medvedev plan to meet for the first time, in London at the economic summit. Medvedev publicly stated he would be seeking concessions from Obama, regarding the United States’ previous plans to establish bases in Eastern Europe.

What is also known, is two Russian strategic bombers landed on Venezuela’s naval air strip on the Island of La Orchila in September, 2008, engaging in a week’s long patrol and flight exercises. Russian President Dmitri Medvedev also visited Venezuela and Cuba last year, along with Russian navy ships. The exercises were intended to forge new relations between Russia and Latin America.

The upcoming economic summit meeting between Obama and Medvedev should soon shed some light on all this Russian “bomber bases” talk.

http://chattahbox.com/world/2009/03/16/hugo-chavez-denies-offering-russians-permanent-bomber-base/


related:

Mon, 16 Mar 2009

Kabul - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said in Kabul on Monday that his country was allowing cargo supplies for NATO forces in Afghanistan through its territory to cooperate with the stabilization of the war-torn country. Lavrov arrived in Kabul on Monday on a one-day trip to meet with Afghan President Hamid Karzai, his Afghan counterpart, Rangin Dadfar Spanta and other Afghan leaders including members of the parliament.

To cooperate in that fight Russia decided to allow the overland transit of non-military supplies for NATO and US-led forces that are fighting the Taliban insurgents in Afghanistan, he said.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/260102,lavrov-russia-backs-nato-bid-to-bring-stability-to-afghanistan.html
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
66. lol This is funny. Apparently, Imperialism is only bad when America does it.
:eyes:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. Funny? Afaik, Russia has never assasinated a Latin America leader,
or overturned a democratic government there or invaded or had a proxy war that killed countless people. Russia hasn't propped up repressive regimes from one end of the continent to the other and never helped oligarchs steal elections. There are graves all over Latin America that demonstrate there's nothing funny about American imperialism. :(
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. There's nothing funny about Imperialism period.
Russia ,as any former/current empire, has its share of atrocities. We should not adopt the binary thinking style of conservatives.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. Your statement makes absolutely no sense to me.
Venezuela does business with the United States, too.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
71. Watch out for the Chavez worshippers...they run in packs here on DU. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. That's hilarious. In fact, Chavez has not offered Russia a base,
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
73. So?
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