Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Why does history repeat itself?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:39 PM
Original message
Why does history repeat itself?
Why don't we learn our lessons?

How long does it take before people forget what happened?

Consolidation and dismantlement of monopolies, prohibition and resurgence of usury, tightened belts in hard times and overextension of credit in easy times....

Will we ever learn?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
RJ Connors Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's our punishment for eating the apple in Eden. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It was a pomegranate.
:dunce:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. yummy
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. It was a snake turd.
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 11:22 PM by bertman
Not an apple


:evilfrown:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. wow, what's in your punchbowl?
:spray:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. The one thing we've learned from history is that nobody learns from history.
Why is a good question.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. History will always repeat itself.... We are and always will be doomed to do that.....
Hitler=George W Bush and that is history... A bit different, but none the less the same.... Hitler was a Dictator and so was George W Bush.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. Because it's old and forgetful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mr. Hyde Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. because nobody heard it the first time?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. The greed of the rich and powerful, and the gullibility and brainwashing of the masses....
a huge part of which is played by religion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. &TV
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Absolutely! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. Lots of reasons.
One is the basic thing about not knowing history, and being condemned to repeat it.

Another is that history never repeats itself perfectly, although there may be many similarities or parallels. What's happening right now bears at best a passing resemblance to the Great Depression. Which isn't to say it couldn't possibly be as awful or as long lasting. But let me point out at least one difference between now and then. In 1929 very few women worked outside the home. Many jobs were considered off-limits to women, or in some cases (such as teaching school) to married women. In 2009 a significant percentage of married women work outside the home, and in most such families her paycheck is essentially to maintaining the family. So on one hand, in a two-earner household, if one loses work, the other is still working to provide some kind of income.

This is not to start a discussion about whether or not two incomes are absolutely necessary. What is in place is a norm of two-income households.

Another difference is the FDIC, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. So far, no one has lost money deposited in a bank. In the 1930's many savers lost everything when their banks folded.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. subtle, very interesting


Laugh In reference for the Young At Heart. :hi:



"One is the basic thing about not knowing history, and being condemned to repeat it."

plus the recent penchant for disappearing history, so no one can learn it.

Your point about two income households is important. When the Yuppie boom of the 90's caught flame, it was the same time all the more repressive tactics were racheted up, perpetrated on a public too busy/distracted/selfish to pay attention to major issues, even if they wanted to.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vini_Vidivici Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. Humans are flawed.........
............and by nature short-sighted. I believe it stems from the instincts of immediate survival being paramount in the human brain.

Also, history spans generations. Humans remember events of their own lives most, not necessarily being mindful of the experiences of past generations.

People and governments alike seem to exhibit this. We see this in all of the failed "political experiments" throughout history that seem to be repeated again and again. Such is our lot, I suppose.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Yes
"Also, history spans generations. Humans remember events of their own lives most, not necessarily being mindful of the experiences of past generations."



so OP asks "How long does it take before people forget.......?"

Decades? Generations?

Many of the parents of the Boom were children in the Depression. They now are still around, still vital, watching people learn AGAIN about basic ways to survive and build/feed/house/clothe/care for family that got "forgotten" along the way.

They knew the "house of credit cards" would collapse, kept their frugal/successful ways and now are paying the price for the last few decades of greed-is-good conspicuous consumption, gouging the heart out of their retirement.

That seems to be about the span that the mercenary bastards count on for forgetfulness... app. one lifetime.........


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. I think the generational aspect is underrated; glad you brought it up.
It's perpetual; what our parents tell us when we're young, we disbelieve "I'll figure it out for myself!" What we tell our children when they're young, they disbelieve: "You don't know everything!". It seems that we set the cycles up over and over and over again, until as we mature, many lessons do sink in; but often too late. It seems we have to live the experience to truly understand it. And if what I just wrote is true, it will continue ad infinitum. How to break the cycle then becomes the real puzzle, I guess. :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. "there's nothing new under the sun" they say.........
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
63. And, in my experience, that's true.
All I am going through in my own life has been done to death before. I'm not some perfect specimen sent to thrill the earth, in other words. I find my struggles replicated in art, in poetry, in literature, and even in the spouting of political philosophy on shared airwaves.

We've ALWAYS been here before. Always. Did I say always? ;-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. If the "voice of experience" is only parents, it's bound to be ignored.
We've lost respect for ELDERS in our culture. Indeed, in humanity's inimitable fashion, it's even caused elders to 'live down' to the lack of respect.

When was the last time you heard WISDOM spoken of positively and respectfully in everyday conversation? We've even gotten to the point that we don't know what it is. How many people understand why 'innocence' and 'wisdom' cannot coexist in one person?

When was the last time there was a New York Times bestseller about wisdom?

:shrug:

We just don't value wise people ... elders with wisdom. After all, they can't even operate a Blackberry.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. or see the value in Twittering
http://www.twitter.com is not a parody, it is the real thing......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
58. Humbly agreed, TahitiNut.
I have long thought about that very issue. I had the wonderful experience of all of my grandparents (and one great-grandparent) being very available. They were not only respected, but consulted in my family about major decisions. I loved and respected their wisdom. So I grew up with a certain ideal and have spent most of my life influenced by it. But not everyone is.

Some don't see the forest for the trees. Wisdom is found lacking in today's fast-moving society. I really don't know the answer. I wish I did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. sounds like you've experienced part of the answer..
:toast: here's to the wisdom brigade.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #62
67. I love it!
The Wisdom Brigade. Long may it reign (eventually?)

I know I am working on it as I can; you are too, so cheers to you, my friend. :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. I know a lot of wonderful elders, profound and otherwise. They're all down to earth and inspiring.
Edited on Sun Mar-08-09 12:06 AM by omega minimo
:grouphug:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vini_Vidivici Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #58
95. I agree wholeheartedly as well..........
....an excellent point. In our own society, I have seen the emergence of what I've dubbed a "culture of ignorance", which I see purveyed in many ways..........music, the media, commercialism, an unfortunate lack of a sense of responsibility of the younger generation.............

This culture of ignorance is spreading. Such a good point that was, that WISDOM is no longer regarded with such respect, and no longer sought out by the masses........I would add KNOWLEDGE to the list as well.........being informed, whether about the world around us, political issues, or many other things, does not seem to be a priority in our society.

So many people go with emotions or the whims of the moment, rather than being informed. So many votes, for example, thrown away and wasted by Citizens using that right carelessly and with no real knowledge and forethought. So many of our Citizens are so ignorant of the 2 ONLY important standards, the things this great Nation was founded on: The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution for the United States. It's just a shame, really.

Only thing informed individuals can possibly do is spread truth and logic at every opportunity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. Harry Truman Said...
"There's nothing new in the world except the history you don't know."

Americans (and pretty much everyone else) do not know history. Most of what people "know" about relatively recent things, like The Great Depression and Nazi Germany, is entirely wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. Brainwashing works! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ardent15 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. Because humans are by nature short-term thinkers
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. what about evolution?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. depends on death of the least fit to survive
before they breed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. what about evolution of consciousness?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Could you explain what you mean? I don't quite understand.
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 11:26 PM by Occam Bandage
Do you mean like individuals becoming more self-aware and self-actualized? Sure, that's good, but that only happens on an individual level, and that doesn't really do much about human nature and everyone else. Do you mean like societies, as a whole, becoming more attuned to social problems? Well, that's always a very good thing, but the question is why people sometimes don't do that, so "sometimes people do" isn't really that meaningful I think.

If you're talking about auras and higher planes of existence, then I can say with a fair degree of confidence that auras and higher planes of existence are not factors, because those are meaningless fairy tales juvenile people tell themselves.

On edit: In case you actually are talking about auras and higher planes of existence, I'm sorry, that was perhaps not a nice way of putting my opinion on such things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. yes
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


it seems you have a firm grasp on the questions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
44. I read the Bible, Shakespeare, and Greek literature
and other than technology and form of government, I really see few differences in the nature of man now and than.

So as far as that is concerned I don't believe we have evolved.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. hmmmmmmmmm
those would be some major sources for whether/if we have....

The loss of language is definitely a mechanism for the loss of memory. Were they better at that then?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. If you look at their literature
They knew how to tell a better story. The book of Job, Homer, Shakespeare...they didn't write to many stories that told some sort of a happy ending.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. allegories vs. what's-b/w-the-commercials?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Exactly
They understood all men are flawed. My favorite part of any piece of literature is Julius Caesar bragging about how constant and unchanging he is, right before the senators stab him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. et tu, Jack In The Box?
and a striking image it is, too. You may have won the jackpot and a free trip to the Star Trek (vintage) allegory of your choice.

:yourock: :applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Lost and Battlestar Gallactica are the only two TV shows I watch
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Battlestar Gallactica = Chickens in Space?
:P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. It is probably the best show on TV right now
The setting might be space but it is very much about American Society.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nyrnyr1994 Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #64
82. "All of this has happened before..."
Was thinking about BSG and that line reading this thread.

It will all probably happen again in our story, but still hoping for Lee Adama's response:

"...but it doesn't have to happen again!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. "...but it doesn't have to happen again!"
Make it so, Number One. :thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. Love LOST
BG lost me in the first episode when they had the young woman taking off her shirt and frenching the dude within seconds of he opening. :puke: What a way to introduce the series.

Did watch the Old BG back in the day when vid games were simplistic and it was radical to suggest that this tech would someday have military apps.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Not a factor.
And even if it were, well, short-term thinkers seem more likely than long-term thinkers to end up having children...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
70. You've actually hit upon what may
be the most important factor of all. In our early evolution such short-term thinking was essential to survival. We only had to think far enough ahead to hunt an animal for the next meal, gather foodstuffs for the same next meal, make sure we had a reasonably safe place to sleep tonight. The elders in the group could be counted on to remember what had happened years or even decades before, but planning ahead simply wasn't needed.

Once we developed agriculture, we needed to be able to plan the entire growing cycle, but that wasn't too difficult. With industrialization it became helpful, although not necessary to plan farther ahead. Look at how even now, major corporations don't really plan much farther ahead than the next couple of quarters. The claim is that the shareholders demand instant results, and that's partially correct. Any company that shows immediate, short-term results, gets rewarded. So long term planning isn't rewarded or valued.

Mistakes of the past are often seen as irrelevant. History is usually taught badly in high school, and possibly in college although I know less about that. For most of us, anything that happened before our lifetime is ancient history, never mind that we are surrounded by those who remember such things.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #70
76. "History is usually taught badly in high school, and possibly in college...."
"For most of us, anything that happened before our lifetime is ancient history"

That may have been less true when -- not that long ago -- history and other subjects were taught differently.

Where are you getting the ideas about the early humans and early ag cultures? It overlooks and oversimplifies what they did to survive and how they encoded it for the group... and foresight was part of the process.

;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #76
90. My comments about early humans and
early ag cultures are completely my own, based on what I know, or think I know about them. So if you disagree with me, I can't point to some authority out there who said that. But I do stand by my statement that only planning for the immediate future was a highly adaptive way to behave. It won't bother me at all if you honestly think I'm completely wrong, because it's clear you gave my statement some thought.

History was generally taught badly when I was in high school, more than forty years ago. While there are some excellent history teachers out there, all too often it's taught by coaches, or by real history teachers who may well care about the topic, but the history texts are often abominable. I realize that generalizing like that (saying that history is taught badly) is probably a dangerous thing to say.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vini_Vidivici Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #76
96. And history is often taught..........
..........with great bias these days, particularly in schools of higher learning. That is a shame.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
15. If you are between the ages of 12 and 30 now
You will remember this time period and speak about it everytime the GOP tries to sell their bullshit. So we have about 50 years for the 30 year olds and 70 for the 12 year olds with current life expectancy.

Look at it this way, people who were that age during the depression are in their 90s right now. They started dying off when Reagan came to power.

After about 2-3 generations people tend to think that something that happened to their grand parents and great grand parents can't happen to them.

So we got about probably 50 years before the cycle repeats itself if we don't delve into fascism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
16. Because people remain human despite the people on the sideline suggesting they shouldn't be. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. "the people on the sideline suggesting they shouldn't be" human, aren't human, or people?
:crazy: :yoiks:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Boy, that was pretty bad wording on my part, wasn't it? Well, we all have our off days. nt
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 11:25 PM by Occam Bandage
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. we're only human
:shrug: :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
19. The past is not dead
it's not even past - Wm. Faulkner

History is as old as today's news.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
25. History does not repeat itsself.
We, being pattern matching creatures, only believe that it does.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. if the fractal fits ..............................
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 11:20 PM by omega minimo
that's not repetitive?

maybe we are "pattern-matching" because patterns exist?


cool
:popcorn:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Patterns certainly do exist. That's why our brains look for them.
However, they do tend to come up with false positives from time to time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. ah, "time to time" that is the question.......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Yes. And the hard part about being humans with human brains is
that we can't very well analyze our brains except by using our brains, so it's rather hard to notice our mistakes. After all, nothing can know itself completely. Gdel's incompleteness theorem and all that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #32
83. our brains are formed with the same patterns
:think:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. Yes, patterns do exist.
But we tend to look for patterns even when they aren't present.

Alexander, Napoleon, Hitler... all tried to conquer the known world, all failed. Is that really a
pattern or simply three instances of trying to do something really difficult and failing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. I think that from those examples, I can say,
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 11:52 PM by Occam Bandage
"It seems to me that leaders who respond to military successes with ever-expanding plans for military conquest are likely to eventually overreach and thus cause the collapse of their empires." I think that's a fairly reasonable pattern of sorts, and I could add many more to that list, from many eras.

For instance, Robert Lee was not attempting to conquer the world, but rather attempting to conquer a peace ensuring the survival of the newborn Confederacy. However, the pattern holds: after his successes at the Seven Days, Fredericksburg, and Chancellorsville, he grew overconfident and not only mounted an audacious invasion of the North (dropping the strategic defensive that had served him so well), but when he found the Union occupying favorable terrain at Gettysburg in larger numbers than his own, he launched a ill-conceived frontal attack that ended in disaster (and would have lost the war outright had the Federal army pursued).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
28. because so many people are so shitty at history...
and the people in power get to decide what goes in the history books, anyway.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
crimsonblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
41. hmm..
One might suggest that the problems that continually occur are ingrained into humans, be it biologically or metaphysically.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. ah
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
46. Good question, omega minimo. I think it's because most people don't care about history.
All they care about is me, me, me, me, me, now, now, now, now, now. So history teachers and history professors and historians are about as well-respected in our culture as the guy who repairs our appliances.

When our history teachers are paid what our CEO's are paid we may be getting close to learning something. But that ain't ever gonna happen.

Partly it's cultural, because there have been many cultures that placed great value on historical knowledge. And also partly it's genetic, I think. Since the genetic component selects for the survivors and the survivors are the cultures that destroy the other cultures that value historical knowlege, well it's been eradicated by breeding.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. We're not DOGS!!!!
"NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!"

Your point is apt:

"Since the genetic component selects for the survivors and the survivors are the cultures that destroy the other cultures that value historical knowlege, well it's been eradicated by breeding."

So an evolving species is continuously self-selecting for its own Dark Ages...........? Could that just be a codpiece fetish? :spray:


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
50. because we allow ourselves to be ruled by the same people
over and over and over again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #50
74. oh yeah
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
53. Simple: 80 years is the average.
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 11:44 PM by Hosnon
For example: 1929. That generation knew the dangers of deregulation. But most born in that era have passed.

Oh, and our own egos. Ignorance (the definitional kind) + ego = bad, bad, bad.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. yes. altho a few here have a maybe skewed view of whose still around. IMHO
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
56. It's because Humans are a spunky bunch, a can do better bunch of
souls who think this time it will be different.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. "spunky"
:spray:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
66. How about because evolution is an ongoing, long-term process and for the
last few thousand years the ones that do learn are still a tiny minority? IOW, most of us still operate at a barely cognizant level, simply going through the motions as directed by those with the motivation to direct them?

Give us another 10,000 years and, assuming we survive, we will learn from the past.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. excellent
Edited on Sun Mar-08-09 12:04 AM by omega minimo
thanks Greyhound, you've articulated my reluctant acceptance of recent history.....

paraphrased:

"How about because evolution is an ongoing, long-term process and for the last (three decades) the ones that do learn are still a tiny minority? IOW, most of us still operate at a barely cognizant level, simply going through the motions as directed by those with the motivation to direct them?"

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
71. history really doesn't repeat itself...
people are just stoopid and keep trying to get away with the same crap over and over again...

sP
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
johnlucas Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
72. Because experiences of a person dies with that person
Edited on Sun Mar-08-09 09:46 AM by johnlucas
The reason we never learn is because we don't experience the things our predecessors experience. The times change with each new birth and each new environment and each new technology.

We simply grow up differently than our parents in some significant way & because of that we view the world differently.
The surrounding peers who grow up differently than their parents also influence how you view the world which creates the general views of a generation.
It's also internal. Our internal makeup set by conception determines the bulk of our personalities & the interactions with the other people around us shape it even further. Then there's the tech of the day.

Think of the mythical caveman before the invention of the wheel. How did they live & what skills did they use to get by in the world? What habits & brain patterns set themselves as the person grew up? Now think about the generation growing up after the invention of the wheel. How did the parental generation view these young'uns rolling everywhere & how resentful or apprehensive were they of this new feature? How did the wheel generation conflict with the old walk generation?

To take it more modern to the older people here (50's, 60's & up) how did some of your parents view television in comparison to you? Were they more comfortable with radio? And at the same token how did you feel about the younger generations under you who grew up in the age of videogames & computers?

Did you find that you became just like your parents begrudging the activities of the younger set? Did the irony of the situation make you catch yourself?

Did the valuable lessons of your sometimes irrationally-begrudging parents/grandparents who grew up in the Great Depression transfer to you or did you blow them off as just more gripes from the old folks? Did the same valuable lessons you learned in life get the same treatment from the young bucks of the so-called Gen X/Gen Y under you?

The reason things never seem to stop messing up as a whole is probably because it's designed to be that way, unfortunately. Each set of experiences is locked inside the minds of that person who experienced them & no one else. When that person dies those experiences die with them. There is slight transference thanks to the analogies of the universe itself (different subjects may resemble each other: you can learn about the moon phases with a tennis ball & a light bulb) & record keeping (memoirs, storytelling, keepsakes, etc.) but ultimately each generation has to learn everything fresh for themselves. This is the great flaw in the species which keep it from reaching its full potential.

It has an upside, however. Some lessons of the past were poorly arrived conclusions that SHOULD die with the outgoing generation. Everything your parents taught you wasn't necessarily wisdom...just their idea of wisdom. Obama couldn't be elected President in 1932 like FDR because of dumb ideas about his personage that took many generations to die out. By 2008, while some of those ideas have retention the number of those who hold to those views is smaller so that he could be elected President.

The fact that after all the hell of the Great Depression that people who grew up in much more stable times would revisit the flawed policies that produced that Depression shows that the human species is always learning but never masters.

The sad truth is that even IF Obama's policies reverse these terrible trends creating prosperity to last through decades, there will be those who didn't grow up in this time and have no connection to the past before his ascension nor the present of his heyday. They see the finished fruit tree & not the hardscrabble to build a good soil or the struggle to get this seed to grow in that soil. All they know is that the fruit has always been there & they take it for granted. One day all these foolish Republican policies we detest so much will return in another form under another name. And we'll be the ignored fogies warning the younger generation of their foolishness. But for the most part they will not listen & it happens all over again.

80 years from 1929 & the 1930's to 2009 & the 2010's? Sounds like the lifetime of a generation to me.
John Lucas
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. at least, the scoundrels who perpetually undo progress hope so
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
75. Because people like being stupid.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. all of em?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. Enough so that the center of mass is on "likes to be stupid".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. those darn masses............. do they know how dum they is? and they like it?
Edited on Sun Mar-08-09 04:34 PM by omega minimo
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tangent90 Donating Member (787 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
78. Where have all the flowers gone?
long time passing
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. the answer, my friend, is blowin in
Edited on Sun Mar-08-09 04:32 PM by omega minimo
the Memory Hole
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
85. Because there is a vested interest owned by those; who mastered the status quo
to fight the risk of change regardless of the potential mid-long term benefits to the society as a whole or the simple necessity to do so.

Inevitably this results in denial of critical information to the public at large.

1. By degrading or deemphasizing the importance of teaching history and the human/social sciences in school, and not just the rote remembering of dates but how history, philosophy, religion, psychology, sociology and geography's intricate web has shaped current societies throughout the world and it's various points of view. This degradation results in a dumbing down of the general populace to the comfort level of viewing their contemporary world as being fixed and insulated, not so transmutable, thought becomes rigid. Nations or empires gradually succumb to riga mortise and adapting to change becomes next to impossible because there is no guiding point for change; other than very superficial references to it, past actions are judged by current standards, mores and conditions.

2. The modes of contemporary information; ie the "news" for the adult population controlled for the most part by the same protagonist champions for maintaining their status quo world, shape, contort, manipulate, spin, obfuscate, omit, or demonize vital information; the message and or it's messengers, thus resulting in brain washing or further dumbing down of the population at large. The skill of critical thinking; is subjugated by the mundane and ridiculous usually to be sacrificed on the altars of celebrity and superficiality. This of course results in more confusion and rigidity for the society hindering it's ability to adapt to a changing world, the people's ability to learn from history is diminished because they aren't fully informed by the people with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo; no matter how dysfunctional until it reaches a critical tipping point, sometimes and I believe increasingly as time goes by this will be too late.

Thanks for the thread, omega minimo.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. great post
Edited on Sun Mar-08-09 07:44 PM by omega minimo
:thumbsup:

1. That's why they called it "liberal studies......" :evilgrin: and why they got rid of it. It's amazing how quickly even college age students changed after Reagan got to the WH -- mebbe they put Alex Keaton juice in the water.

2. From the hostility that concepts-that-would-have-been-allowed-to-breathe-in-more-well-rounded-times receive, it's way too late.

:hi: The bright kids minds coming up in this mess will be so scrambled they'll be a great boon (if not already) to the pharma industry.

Soma, anyone?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Baikonour Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
87. Novelty Theory.
I love me some Terence McKenna.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
88. Because it can?
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
89. Well in order to learn from history we'd first have to teach it
how much of that history is taught in HS?

Why is that?

That is the first part of your answer

There are powerful interests in keeping people uninformed

The second, in the US in particular we despise history and love myth
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #89
91. another demarcation of before Reagan and after Reagan
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #91
92. Though there was plenty of myth before Reagan
see the Alamo and Washington cannot tell a lie

These days, history has left the building

Hell I find it fascinating that most classes stop around 1960 best case

We do not get into the Korean war most of the time

Civil Rights...you kid me? I mean them young'uns may get ideas
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
93. If history books are anything like our mainstream media
it is no wonder we keep repeating mistakes. People in the US know more about Paris Hilton and her wardrobe than they do about historical events. You have to accurately portray events if you have any hope of learning from them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
94. People do not react from logic. We react from basic instincts so we are doomed to repeat things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
B o d i Donating Member (543 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
97. History never repeats itself exactly, though it does often rhyme.
I forget who said that first.

Or.... something like that, anyway.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. Samuel Clemmons, aka "Mark Twain."
Just in case you're not kidding.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. LOL
:rofl: :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
99. History does not repeat itself. Hiistorians, however,
being simple-minded, repeat themselves on and on again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Sep 02nd 2014, 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC