Why does history repeat itself?

[omega minimo]

Why don't we learn our lessons?

How long does it take before people forget what happened?

Consolidation and dismantlement of monopolies, prohibition and resurgence of usury, tightened belts in hard times and overextension of credit in easy times....

Will we ever learn?

[RJ Connors]

1. It's our punishment for eating the apple in Eden. n/t

[TahitiNut]

3. It was a pomegranate.

[omega minimo]

22. yummy

[bertman]

33. It was a snake turd.

Not an apple

[omega minimo]

39. wow, what's in your punchbowl?

[bananas]

2. The one thing we've learned from history is that nobody learns from history.

Why is a good question.

[LakeSamish706]

4. History will always repeat itself.... We are and always will be doomed to do that.....

Hitler=George W Bush and that is history... A bit different, but none the less the same.... Hitler was a Dictator and so was George W Bush.....

[scarletwoman]

5. Because it's old and forgetful.

[Mr. Hyde]

6. because nobody heard it the first time?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

7. The greed of the rich and powerful, and the gullibility and brainwashing of the masses....

a huge part of which is played by religion.

[omega minimo]

13. &TV

[Sarah Ibarruri]

20. Absolutely! nt

[SheilaT]

8. Lots of reasons.

One is the basic thing about not knowing history, and being condemned to repeat it.

Another is that history never repeats itself perfectly, although there may be many similarities or parallels. What's happening right now bears at best a passing resemblance to the Great Depression. Which isn't to say it couldn't possibly be as awful or as long lasting. But let me point out at least one difference between now and then. In 1929 very few women worked outside the home. Many jobs were considered off-limits to women, or in some cases (such as teaching school) to married women. In 2009 a significant percentage of married women work outside the home, and in most such families her paycheck is essentially to maintaining the family. So on one hand, in a two-earner household, if one loses work, the other is still working to provide some kind of income.

This is not to start a discussion about whether or not two incomes are absolutely necessary. What is in place is a norm of two-income households.

Another difference is the FDIC, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. So far, no one has lost money deposited in a bank. In the 1930's many savers lost everything when their banks folded.

[omega minimo]

26. subtle, very interesting

Laugh In reference for the Young At Heart.



"One is the basic thing about not knowing history, and being condemned to repeat it."

plus the recent penchant for disappearing history, so no one can learn it.

Your point about two income households is important. When the Yuppie boom of the 90's caught flame, it was the same time all the more repressive tactics were racheted up, perpetrated on a public too busy/distracted/selfish to pay attention to major issues, even if they wanted to.

[Vini_Vidivici]

9. Humans are flawed.........

............and by nature short-sighted. I believe it stems from the instincts of immediate survival being paramount in the human brain.

Also, history spans generations. Humans remember events of their own lives most, not necessarily being mindful of the experiences of past generations.

People and governments alike seem to exhibit this. We see this in all of the failed "political experiments" throughout history that seem to be repeated again and again. Such is our lot, I suppose.

[omega minimo]

21. Yes

"Also, history spans generations. Humans remember events of their own lives most, not necessarily being mindful of the experiences of past generations."



so OP asks "How long does it take before people forget.......?"

Decades? Generations?

Many of the parents of the Boom were children in the Depression. They now are still around, still vital, watching people learn AGAIN about basic ways to survive and build/feed/house/clothe/care for family that got "forgotten" along the way.

They knew the "house of credit cards" would collapse, kept their frugal/successful ways and now are paying the price for the last few decades of greed-is-good conspicuous consumption, gouging the heart out of their retirement.

That seems to be about the span that the mercenary bastards count on for forgetfulness... app. one lifetime.........

[susanna]

23. I think the generational aspect is underrated; glad you brought it up.

It's perpetual; what our parents tell us when we're young, we disbelieve "I'll figure it out for myself!" What we tell our children when they're young, they disbelieve: "You don't know everything!". It seems that we set the cycles up over and over and over again, until as we mature, many lessons do sink in; but often too late. It seems we have to live the experience to truly understand it. And if what I just wrote is true, it will continue ad infinitum. How to break the cycle then becomes the real puzzle, I guess.

[omega minimo]

27. "there's nothing new under the sun" they say.........

[susanna]

63. And, in my experience, that's true.

All I am going through in my own life has been done to death before. I'm not some perfect specimen sent to thrill the earth, in other words. I find my struggles replicated in art, in poetry, in literature, and even in the spouting of political philosophy on shared airwaves.

We've ALWAYS been here before. Always. Did I say always?

[TahitiNut]

31. If the "voice of experience" is only parents, it's bound to be ignored.

We've lost respect for ELDERS in our culture. Indeed, in humanity's inimitable fashion, it's even caused elders to 'live down' to the lack of respect.

When was the last time you heard WISDOM spoken of positively and respectfully in everyday conversation? We've even gotten to the point that we don't know what it is. How many people understand why 'innocence' and 'wisdom' cannot coexist in one person?

When was the last time there was a New York Times bestseller about wisdom?



We just don't value wise people ... elders with wisdom. After all, they can't even operate a Blackberry.

[omega minimo]

37. or see the value in Twittering

http://www.twitter.com is not a parody, it is the real thing......

[susanna]

58. Humbly agreed, TahitiNut.

I have long thought about that very issue. I had the wonderful experience of all of my grandparents (and one great-grandparent) being very available. They were not only respected, but consulted in my family about major decisions. I loved and respected their wisdom. So I grew up with a certain ideal and have spent most of my life influenced by it. But not everyone is.

Some don't see the forest for the trees. Wisdom is found lacking in today's fast-moving society. I really don't know the answer. I wish I did.

[omega minimo]

62. sounds like you've experienced part of the answer..

here's to the wisdom brigade.

[susanna]

67. I love it!

The Wisdom Brigade. Long may it reign (eventually?)

I know I am working on it as I can; you are too, so cheers to you, my friend.

[omega minimo]

69. I know a lot of wonderful elders, profound and otherwise. They're all down to earth and inspiring.

[Vini_Vidivici]

95. I agree wholeheartedly as well..........

....an excellent point. In our own society, I have seen the emergence of what I've dubbed a "culture of ignorance", which I see purveyed in many ways..........music, the media, commercialism, an unfortunate lack of a sense of responsibility of the younger generation.............

This culture of ignorance is spreading. Such a good point that was, that WISDOM is no longer regarded with such respect, and no longer sought out by the masses........I would add KNOWLEDGE to the list as well.........being informed, whether about the world around us, political issues, or many other things, does not seem to be a priority in our society.

So many people go with emotions or the whims of the moment, rather than being informed. So many votes, for example, thrown away and wasted by Citizens using that right carelessly and with no real knowledge and forethought. So many of our Citizens are so ignorant of the 2 ONLY important standards, the things this great Nation was founded on: The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution for the United States. It's just a shame, really.

Only thing informed individuals can possibly do is spread truth and logic at every opportunity.

[MannyGoldstein]

10. Harry Truman Said...

"There's nothing new in the world except the history you don't know."

Americans (and pretty much everyone else) do not know history. Most of what people "know" about relatively recent things, like The Great Depression and Nazi Germany, is entirely wrong.

[valerief]

11. Brainwashing works! nt

[Ardent15]

12. Because humans are by nature short-term thinkers

[omega minimo]

14. what about evolution?

[AllentownJake]

17. depends on death of the least fit to survive

before they breed.

[omega minimo]

24. what about evolution of consciousness?

[Occam Bandage]

30. Could you explain what you mean? I don't quite understand.

Do you mean like individuals becoming more self-aware and self-actualized? Sure, that's good, but that only happens on an individual level, and that doesn't really do much about human nature and everyone else. Do you mean like societies, as a whole, becoming more attuned to social problems? Well, that's always a very good thing, but the question is why people sometimes don't do that, so "sometimes people do" isn't really that meaningful I think.

If you're talking about auras and higher planes of existence, then I can say with a fair degree of confidence that auras and higher planes of existence are not factors, because those are meaningless fairy tales juvenile people tell themselves.

On edit: In case you actually are talking about auras and higher planes of existence, I'm sorry, that was perhaps not a nice way of putting my opinion on such things.

[omega minimo]

42. yes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


it seems you have a firm grasp on the questions.

[AllentownJake]

44. I read the Bible, Shakespeare, and Greek literature

and other than technology and form of government, I really see few differences in the nature of man now and than.

So as far as that is concerned I don't believe we have evolved.

[omega minimo]

47. hmmmmmmmmm

those would be some major sources for whether/if we have....

The loss of language is definitely a mechanism for the loss of memory. Were they better at that then?

[AllentownJake]

49. If you look at their literature

They knew how to tell a better story. The book of Job, Homer, Shakespeare...they didn't write to many stories that told some sort of a happy ending.

[omega minimo]

51. allegories vs. what's-b/w-the-commercials?

[AllentownJake]

52. Exactly

They understood all men are flawed. My favorite part of any piece of literature is Julius Caesar bragging about how constant and unchanging he is, right before the senators stab him.

[omega minimo]

54. et tu, Jack In The Box?

and a striking image it is, too. You may have won the jackpot and a free trip to the Star Trek (vintage) allegory of your choice.

[AllentownJake]

57. Lost and Battlestar Gallactica are the only two TV shows I watch

[Occam Bandage]

61. Battlestar Gallactica = Chickens in Space?

[AllentownJake]

64. It is probably the best show on TV right now

The setting might be space but it is very much about American Society.

[nyrnyr1994]

82. "All of this has happened before..."

Was thinking about BSG and that line reading this thread.

It will all probably happen again in our story, but still hoping for Lee Adama's response:

"...but it doesn't have to happen again!"

[omega minimo]

84. "...but it doesn't have to happen again!"

Make it so, Number One.

[omega minimo]

65. Love LOST

BG lost me in the first episode when they had the young woman taking off her shirt and frenching the dude within seconds of he opening. What a way to introduce the series.

Did watch the Old BG back in the day when vid games were simplistic and it was radical to suggest that this tech would someday have military apps.

[Occam Bandage]

18. Not a factor.

And even if it were, well, short-term thinkers seem more likely than long-term thinkers to end up having children...

[SheilaT]

70. You've actually hit upon what may

be the most important factor of all. In our early evolution such short-term thinking was essential to survival. We only had to think far enough ahead to hunt an animal for the next meal, gather foodstuffs for the same next meal, make sure we had a reasonably safe place to sleep tonight. The elders in the group could be counted on to remember what had happened years or even decades before, but planning ahead simply wasn't needed.

Once we developed agriculture, we needed to be able to plan the entire growing cycle, but that wasn't too difficult. With industrialization it became helpful, although not necessary to plan farther ahead. Look at how even now, major corporations don't really plan much farther ahead than the next couple of quarters. The claim is that the shareholders demand instant results, and that's partially correct. Any company that shows immediate, short-term results, gets rewarded. So long term planning isn't rewarded or valued.

Mistakes of the past are often seen as irrelevant. History is usually taught badly in high school, and possibly in college although I know less about that. For most of us, anything that happened before our lifetime is ancient history, never mind that we are surrounded by those who remember such things.

[omega minimo]

76. "History is usually taught badly in high school, and possibly in college...."

"For most of us, anything that happened before our lifetime is ancient history"

That may have been less true when -- not that long ago -- history and other subjects were taught differently.

Where are you getting the ideas about the early humans and early ag cultures? It overlooks and oversimplifies what they did to survive and how they encoded it for the group... and foresight was part of the process.

[SheilaT]

90. My comments about early humans and

early ag cultures are completely my own, based on what I know, or think I know about them. So if you disagree with me, I can't point to some authority out there who said that. But I do stand by my statement that only planning for the immediate future was a highly adaptive way to behave. It won't bother me at all if you honestly think I'm completely wrong, because it's clear you gave my statement some thought.

History was generally taught badly when I was in high school, more than forty years ago. While there are some excellent history teachers out there, all too often it's taught by coaches, or by real history teachers who may well care about the topic, but the history texts are often abominable. I realize that generalizing like that (saying that history is taught badly) is probably a dangerous thing to say.

[Vini_Vidivici]

96. And history is often taught..........

..........with great bias these days, particularly in schools of higher learning. That is a shame.

[AllentownJake]

15. If you are between the ages of 12 and 30 now

You will remember this time period and speak about it everytime the GOP tries to sell their bullshit. So we have about 50 years for the 30 year olds and 70 for the 12 year olds with current life expectancy.

Look at it this way, people who were that age during the depression are in their 90s right now. They started dying off when Reagan came to power.

After about 2-3 generations people tend to think that something that happened to their grand parents and great grand parents can't happen to them.

So we got about probably 50 years before the cycle repeats itself if we don't delve into fascism.

[Occam Bandage]

16. Because people remain human despite the people on the sideline suggesting they shouldn't be. nt

[omega minimo]

34. "the people on the sideline suggesting they shouldn't be" human, aren't human, or people?

[Occam Bandage]

38. Boy, that was pretty bad wording on my part, wasn't it? Well, we all have our off days. nt

[omega minimo]

43. we're only human

[ashling]

19. The past is not dead

it's not even past - Wm. Faulkner

History is as old as today's news.

[lapfog_1]

25. History does not repeat itsself.

We, being pattern matching creatures, only believe that it does.

[omega minimo]

29. if the fractal fits ..............................

that's not repetitive?

maybe we are "pattern-matching" because patterns exist?


cool

[Occam Bandage]

32. Patterns certainly do exist. That's why our brains look for them.

However, they do tend to come up with false positives from time to time.

[omega minimo]

35. ah, "time to time" that is the question.......

[Occam Bandage]

36. Yes. And the hard part about being humans with human brains is

that we can't very well analyze our brains except by using our brains, so it's rather hard to notice our mistakes. After all, nothing can know itself completely. Gödel's incompleteness theorem and all that.

[omega minimo]

83. our brains are formed with the same patterns

[lapfog_1]

40. Yes, patterns do exist.

But we tend to look for patterns even when they aren't present.

Alexander, Napoleon, Hitler... all tried to conquer the known world, all failed. Is that really a
pattern or simply three instances of trying to do something really difficult and failing.

[Occam Bandage]

55. I think that from those examples, I can say,

"It seems to me that leaders who respond to military successes with ever-expanding plans for military conquest are likely to eventually overreach and thus cause the collapse of their empires." I think that's a fairly reasonable pattern of sorts, and I could add many more to that list, from many eras.

For instance, Robert Lee was not attempting to conquer the world, but rather attempting to conquer a peace ensuring the survival of the newborn Confederacy. However, the pattern holds: after his successes at the Seven Days, Fredericksburg, and Chancellorsville, he grew overconfident and not only mounted an audacious invasion of the North (dropping the strategic defensive that had served him so well), but when he found the Union occupying favorable terrain at Gettysburg in larger numbers than his own, he launched a ill-conceived frontal attack that ended in disaster (and would have lost the war outright had the Federal army pursued).

[dysfunctional press]

28. because so many people are so shitty at history...

and the people in power get to decide what goes in the history books, anyway.

[crimsonblue]

41. hmm..

One might suggest that the problems that continually occur are ingrained into humans, be it biologically or metaphysically.

[omega minimo]

45. ah

[bertman]

46. Good question, omega minimo. I think it's because most people don't care about history.

All they care about is me, me, me, me, me, now, now, now, now, now. So history teachers and history professors and historians are about as well-respected in our culture as the guy who repairs our appliances.

When our history teachers are paid what our CEO's are paid we may be getting close to learning something. But that ain't ever gonna happen.

Partly it's cultural, because there have been many cultures that placed great value on historical knowledge. And also partly it's genetic, I think. Since the genetic component selects for the survivors and the survivors are the cultures that destroy the other cultures that value historical knowlege, well it's been eradicated by breeding.

[omega minimo]

48. We're not DOGS!!!!

"NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!NOW!"

Your point is apt:

"Since the genetic component selects for the survivors and the survivors are the cultures that destroy the other cultures that value historical knowlege, well it's been eradicated by breeding."

So an evolving species is continuously self-selecting for its own Dark Ages...........? Could that just be a codpiece fetish?

[leftofthedial]

50. because we allow ourselves to be ruled by the same people

over and over and over again.

[omega minimo]

74. oh yeah

you already said this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Hosnon]

53. Simple: 80 years is the average.

For example: 1929. That generation knew the dangers of deregulation. But most born in that era have passed.

Oh, and our own egos. Ignorance (the definitional kind) + ego = bad, bad, bad.

[omega minimo]

59. yes. altho a few here have a maybe skewed view of whose still around. IMHO

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[WCGreen]

56. It's because Humans are a spunky bunch, a can do better bunch of

souls who think this time it will be different.

[omega minimo]

60. "spunky"

[Greyhound]

66. How about because evolution is an ongoing, long-term process and for the

last few thousand years the ones that do learn are still a tiny minority? IOW, most of us still operate at a barely cognizant level, simply going through the motions as directed by those with the motivation to direct them?

Give us another 10,000 years and, assuming we survive, we will learn from the past.

[omega minimo]

68. excellent

thanks Greyhound, you've articulated my reluctant acceptance of recent history.....

paraphrased:

"How about because evolution is an ongoing, long-term process and for the last (three decades) the ones that do learn are still a tiny minority? IOW, most of us still operate at a barely cognizant level, simply going through the motions as directed by those with the motivation to direct them?"

[ProdigalJunkMail]

71. history really doesn't repeat itself...

people are just stoopid and keep trying to get away with the same crap over and over again...

sP

[johnlucas]

72. Because experiences of a person dies with that person

The reason we never learn is because we don't experience the things our predecessors experience. The times change with each new birth and each new environment and each new technology.

We simply grow up differently than our parents in some significant way & because of that we view the world differently.
The surrounding peers who grow up differently than their parents also influence how you view the world which creates the general views of a generation.
It's also internal. Our internal makeup set by conception determines the bulk of our personalities & the interactions with the other people around us shape it even further. Then there's the tech of the day.

Think of the mythical caveman before the invention of the wheel. How did they live & what skills did they use to get by in the world? What habits & brain patterns set themselves as the person grew up? Now think about the generation growing up after the invention of the wheel. How did the parental generation view these young'uns rolling everywhere & how resentful or apprehensive were they of this new feature? How did the wheel generation conflict with the old walk generation?

To take it more modern to the older people here (50's, 60's & up) how did some of your parents view television in comparison to you? Were they more comfortable with radio? And at the same token how did you feel about the younger generations under you who grew up in the age of videogames & computers?

Did you find that you became just like your parents begrudging the activities of the younger set? Did the irony of the situation make you catch yourself?

Did the valuable lessons of your sometimes irrationally-begrudging parents/grandparents who grew up in the Great Depression transfer to you or did you blow them off as just more gripes from the old folks? Did the same valuable lessons you learned in life get the same treatment from the young bucks of the so-called Gen X/Gen Y under you?

The reason things never seem to stop messing up as a whole is probably because it's designed to be that way, unfortunately. Each set of experiences is locked inside the minds of that person who experienced them & no one else. When that person dies those experiences die with them. There is slight transference thanks to the analogies of the universe itself (different subjects may resemble each other: you can learn about the moon phases with a tennis ball & a light bulb) & record keeping (memoirs, storytelling, keepsakes, etc.) but ultimately each generation has to learn everything fresh for themselves. This is the great flaw in the species which keep it from reaching its full potential.

It has an upside, however. Some lessons of the past were poorly arrived conclusions that SHOULD die with the outgoing generation. Everything your parents taught you wasn't necessarily wisdom...just their idea of wisdom. Obama couldn't be elected President in 1932 like FDR because of dumb ideas about his personage that took many generations to die out. By 2008, while some of those ideas have retention the number of those who hold to those views is smaller so that he could be elected President.

The fact that after all the hell of the Great Depression that people who grew up in much more stable times would revisit the flawed policies that produced that Depression shows that the human species is always learning but never masters.

The sad truth is that even IF Obama's policies reverse these terrible trends creating prosperity to last through decades, there will be those who didn't grow up in this time and have no connection to the past before his ascension nor the present of his heyday. They see the finished fruit tree & not the hardscrabble to build a good soil or the struggle to get this seed to grow in that soil. All they know is that the fruit has always been there & they take it for granted. One day all these foolish Republican policies we detest so much will return in another form under another name. And we'll be the ignored fogies warning the younger generation of their foolishness. But for the most part they will not listen & it happens all over again.

80 years from 1929 & the 1930's to 2009 & the 2010's? Sounds like the lifetime of a generation to me.
John Lucas

[omega minimo]

73. at least, the scoundrels who perpetually undo progress hope so

[BlooInBloo]

75. Because people like being stupid.

[omega minimo]

77. all of em?

[BlooInBloo]

80. Enough so that the center of mass is on "likes to be stupid".

[omega minimo]

81. those darn masses............. do they know how dum they is? and they like it?

[tangent90]

78. Where have all the flowers gone?

long time passing

[omega minimo]

79. the answer, my friend, is blowin in

the Memory Hole

[Uncle Joe]

85. Because there is a vested interest owned by those; who mastered the status quo

to fight the risk of change regardless of the potential mid-long term benefits to the society as a whole or the simple necessity to do so.

Inevitably this results in denial of critical information to the public at large.

1. By degrading or deemphasizing the importance of teaching history and the human/social sciences in school, and not just the rote remembering of dates but how history, philosophy, religion, psychology, sociology and geography's intricate web has shaped current societies throughout the world and it's various points of view. This degradation results in a dumbing down of the general populace to the comfort level of viewing their contemporary world as being fixed and insulated, not so transmutable, thought becomes rigid. Nations or empires gradually succumb to riga mortise and adapting to change becomes next to impossible because there is no guiding point for change; other than very superficial references to it, past actions are judged by current standards, mores and conditions.

2. The modes of contemporary information; ie the "news" for the adult population controlled for the most part by the same protagonist champions for maintaining their status quo world, shape, contort, manipulate, spin, obfuscate, omit, or demonize vital information; the message and or it's messengers, thus resulting in brain washing or further dumbing down of the population at large. The skill of critical thinking; is subjugated by the mundane and ridiculous usually to be sacrificed on the altars of celebrity and superficiality. This of course results in more confusion and rigidity for the society hindering it's ability to adapt to a changing world, the people's ability to learn from history is diminished because they aren't fully informed by the people with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo; no matter how dysfunctional until it reaches a critical tipping point, sometimes and I believe increasingly as time goes by this will be too late.

Thanks for the thread, omega minimo.

[omega minimo]

86. great post

1. That's why they called it "liberal studies......" and why they got rid of it. It's amazing how quickly even college age students changed after Reagan got to the WH -- mebbe they put Alex Keaton juice in the water.

2. From the hostility that concepts-that-would-have-been-allowed-to-breathe-in-more-well-rounded-times receive, it's way too late.

The bright kids minds coming up in this mess will be so scrambled they'll be a great boon (if not already) to the pharma industry.

Soma, anyone?

[Baikonour]

87. Novelty Theory.

I love me some Terence McKenna.

[Cetacea]

88. Because it can?

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Well in order to learn from history we'd first have to teach it

how much of that history is taught in HS?

Why is that?

That is the first part of your answer

There are powerful interests in keeping people uninformed

The second, in the US in particular we despise history and love myth

[omega minimo]

91. another demarcation of before Reagan and after Reagan

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Though there was plenty of myth before Reagan

see the Alamo and Washington cannot tell a lie

These days, history has left the building

Hell I find it fascinating that most classes stop around 1960 best case

We do not get into the Korean war most of the time

Civil Rights...you kid me? I mean them young'uns may get ideas

[TBF]

93. If history books are anything like our mainstream media

it is no wonder we keep repeating mistakes. People in the US know more about Paris Hilton and her wardrobe than they do about historical events. You have to accurately portray events if you have any hope of learning from them.

[Kablooie]

94. People do not react from logic. We react from basic instincts so we are doomed to repeat things.

[B o d i]

97. History never repeats itself exactly, though it does often rhyme.

I forget who said that first.

Or.... something like that, anyway.

[amandabeech]

98. Samuel Clemmons, aka "Mark Twain."

Just in case you're not kidding.

[omega minimo]

100. LOL

[ConsAreLiars]

99. History does not repeat itself. Hiistorians, however,

being simple-minded, repeat themselves on and on again.