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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:49 PM
Original message
The jobs problem will only be solved when trade and tax laws are rewritten so that it is no longer..
...profitable to export jobs to Asia and other low wage countries.

The economy is just the flow of goods, services, and money. The main problem with our economy is that every time we make a purchase, the money we spend goes, not to other Americans who made those goods, but to Asia after the corporations take their profits.

This economy will not recover until NAFTA, the WTO, the IMF, the World Bank, and all those other corporate cartel agreements are eliminated so that American companies who want to manufacture here in America with American labor the everyday goods that we buy will be able to do so.

Saying that the collapsing stock market or the banks lacking liquidity is causing the economic downturn is utter nonsense. The problem is the outflow of capital to Asia. This country is unemployed and running up its debt with no way to pay its bills.

The term "free trade" bandied about as an excuse for offshoring jobs is just another meaningless term for "trickle-down, supply-side economics". We do NOT have free trade. Trade is tightly controlled by international corporate cartels and their practices to increase their profits are what is destroying our economy.

The bailout of the banks will NOT help the economy. The problem is NOT a lack of liquidity. The problem is that every purchase we make sends more money to China. The Chinese economy is problematic because we are running out of money to buy their goods. The Chinese, like the rest of the world, has been buying the bad debt created by our crooked banks to prop up our buying their goods. Now that this Ponzi scheme has been exposed, the world's economies are collapsing.

We have to bring JOBS back to the U.S. For the economy to work, when we buy goods and services, the money we spend has to go to other Americans who will, in turn, buy from us. The circulation of money WITHIN an economy makes it successful. The constant outflow of money leads to debt and eventual collapse. It is like trying to fill a bath tub with a missing stopper. Pouring water in faster will not fill the tub. It will just delay the emptying of the tub.

The stimulus will NOT help long term unless the exporting of jobs is reversed. When a majority of the goods and services Americans buy are produced by Americans so that the money we spend circulates WITHIN the U.S., then the economy will recover on its own.

Putting Americans to work will "solve" another problem for the U.S.: The problem of governments losing revenue and not able to function to provide services for the people. When Americans don't work, they don't pay income taxes or Social Security taxes. The revenue "surplus" this country achieved under President Clinton in the late 1990's was achieved because there was high employment during those years. Lots of people were earning income and paying taxes. Put Americans back to work and, even without raising taxes on the "rich", watch the government coffers fill up again.
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ogneopasno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. The only way I will get excited about a green jobs revolution in the U.S. is when someone explains
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 09:02 PM by ogneopasno
to me how those jobs cannot be outsourced. I think, in the 1930s, no one thought this place would shrink because of outsourcing, either:

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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Most of the high-tech stuff we buy from China was developed here in the U.S.
If NAFTA, the WTO, the IMF, the World Bank, and all of the other cartel agreements remain in force, the green technology we develop here will wind up going to China because that is how the corporations make such huge profits.

The problem is NOT the Chinese. The problem is the multinational corporations. The Chinese are being exploited by these cartels as much as Americans are.
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. All workers are being exploited
the multi-nationals are now trying to rid themselves of nation/State Governments. I see old films & can clearly see that way back in the day the "latest thing" was debuted here in America, but now it debuts there in Asia. I became aware of this in the 1990s, when video game consoles debuted in Korea or Japan, & I felt it was a sign of unhealthy economic times ahead for America. Reagan outsourced tons of tech jobs to Japan & let them buy up alot of Hawaii, I read some books about the 1980s because I wanted to get a better idea of what went on then ,because I was just a kid. I was disgusted that Dems let him & the Right blame Liberals for "the Japs" buying up Hawaii & taking away far too many high-paying jobs=that was THEN, just like Bush, he dusted off their playbook, brought back most of the players from the 80s & there you have it! Same game same guys same deficits-don't-matter, $500 Pentagon hammers, only worse.

They're putsourcing jobs to those south of America's borders, but in Europe they're outsourcing to cheap EAST Europeans. Where is Australia outsourcing...to the Phillipines? Indonesia?

The Scrooge factory owners have thought ahead, making the workers look & sound racist, & some pawns really are bigots, but people need to wake up: this is a TACTIC being used by most '1st world' nations. We should find an English-speaking French Labor leader & get her or him to come over here & help us regain our fire & passion & maybe our jobs back.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
23. EXACTLY. Unless we get tariffs in place, this country will look like Brazil before long....
with its massive poverty, its favelas (shacks) for miles, the majority eating out of dumpsters, etc.
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. it seems many americans seem to think this global economy is
just great. I personally don't . I would prefer to buy american and work for an american company and let the rest of the planet build their own economy. We owe many countries for what we have robbed of them but if we are to be part of some global economy then all countries should be on the same pay not some crap ass min wage but livable wage depending on what their cost of living is.

And fucked up wall street should have no part in this , screw them and their lies and people who gamble and risk to make money off of money and debt. Screw their stock holders too.

Build or make something of go straight to you own personal gods hell. If resources are needed then pay for them , there is the trade.

I am so sick of this crap and the way corporations tell us they are too big to fail , well who made them big , the workers who they screwed that's who.

Enough of this shit and crap and lies and billowing of political smoke , blow the smoke out of your ass.

Fucking people who think they are better than everyone else , well show me your papers from your own fucked up personal god who said so or cram the entire news speak and swill of lies clear up your ass.
Some sports figure or movie star making millions a year for what, people are so filled up with the hype that they are in some sort of star crazed transe , fuck you. Not one of these ass holes would have a building or camera to show off their skills if it were not for the working people who make these things possible. If you think other wise then go for it , build and maintain it yourself and then go out and sell the tickets to the few left who have the job or money to afford it.

And those who make a living off building bombs and bullets and ammo , fuck you too , go find some job that does not deal in direct death because of your efforts. In the end if you are some believer I hope you find out just where you took the wrong path all for the all mighty dollar you freaks.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Makes 100% sense but I predict this OP will draw out a handful of cheap labor apologists
Who always show up to tell us we are xenophobes for wanting to protect American jobs and that it's our responsibility to bring other countries out of poverty. Even though those same countries protect their own industries. Even though the global economy has depended on the U.S. consumer, who has been putting it all on Visa since wages here have stagnated.
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Bingo. The brainwashed fake free trade idiots will surely show up as usual.
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 09:16 PM by Elwood P Dowd
However, their numbers are declining as they slowly realize their insane ideology is hurting both American workers and the foreign workers. The race to the bottom they support is killing us all.
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Even though real wages are DOWN in those countries
China, India, Mexico -- globalization has been a great boon for the rich people who live in those countries. Not so much for the people who actually work for a living. In fact, it's been a disaster for them and a great many others.

Go out and read this book. Or his other one. I understand how appealing the free-trade scam can be, because I was hooked for a while in the 90s, but Palast lays it out in layman's terms and persuasive facts.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Responsibility to pull countries out of poverty? How do you think these countries GOT so poor?
Multinationals, largely led by the US. Death squads in Guatemala, Mexico, Chile, East Timor, Korea, El Salvador, Honduras... should I go on? We PUT Mexicans in worse poverty by voting for politicians who supported NAFTA.

There is no "advanced capitalism" AND "protecting American jobs." We will not EVER revert to the golden era of American industrialism, when capital had little ability to set up sweatshops in China and we had good union jobs because the govt was worried about making sure American workers looked well-of compared to communist workers. Once communism fell--bye-bye American worker, hello foreign slave, so long suckers, thanks for killin' them reds.

It's more likely that other countries that know how to rise up against their corrupt kleptocracies will BRING US out of poverty in the future. Foreign labor isn't your enemy.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Right on cue.
Multinationals, largely led by the US. Death squads in Guatemala, Mexico, Chile, East Timor, Korea, El Salvador, Honduras... should I go on? We PUT Mexicans in worse poverty by voting for politicians who supported NAFTA.

Multinationals. And no, not "led by the U.S.". Led by their CEOs and shareholders, who have no loyalty to anything but quarterly profits. Don't blame voters for NAFTA. The only candidate opposed to it was Ross Perot, who was right on this one issue, but wasn't a legitimate contender otherwise.

There is no "advanced capitalism" AND "protecting American jobs." We will not EVER revert to the golden era of American industrialism, when capital had little ability to set up sweatshops in China and we had good union jobs because the govt was worried about making sure American workers looked well-of compared to communist workers. Once communism fell--bye-bye American worker, hello foreign slave, so long suckers, thanks for killin' them reds.

It's more likely that other countries that know how to rise up against their corrupt kleptocracies will BRING US out of poverty in the future. Foreign labor isn't your enemy.



So tell me, how has that theory worked out so far? Oh yeah, it's produced the greatest global economic catastrophe in human history. See, like the rest of your fellow apologists, you forget one important detail - that the whole thing still depended on the U.S. consumer being able to buy what was being manufactured. Sweatshops in China don't create a consumer base in China that equals our market. So when Americans stopped buying, all trade pretty much came to a screeching halt. The poor countries were, and are, never going to be in a position to "rise up against their corrupt kleptocracies" as long as they take part in the fraud of globalism.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. "When Americans stopped buying." Is that really the problem?
There's been a slow decline in real wage value for decades, and Americans have been slowly buying less of value.

There's a REASON Wal-Mart has become a mega source for cheap goods in the US.

I can't imagine the economy came to a screeching halt one day because not enough Americans were purchasing $20.00 worth of dish towels and buttwipe at WallyWorld.
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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. The cartel agreements are designed to KEEP the workers in those countries poor.
The Chinese not buying goods from us is not due to actions of the Chinese. The American corporations don't want to sell them anything EXCEPT high priced goods.

Chinese workers would have to be paid higher wages to be able to AFFORD to buy goods manufactured in the U.S. However, if Chinese workers were paid more, then corporate profits would be less and the Chinese could become independent of the cartels for their livelihood. The cartels want the Chinese workers to remain serfs so they keep their wages low by being the sole source of sales. If the corporations don't buy it, no one does and the Chinese worker loses his or her job.

Unemployment is rising in China as well because Americans are buying less. Both American workers and Chinese workers would benefit from higher wages. The cartel agreements are designed specifically to prevent that from happening. If Chinese workers made more money, they could afford to buy their own production and be less dependent on the corporations for their livelihoods. It is NOT the Chinese who control this system of trade, but rather the corporate cartels. It is the corporations who keep sales of American goods at low levels, to keep the Chinese workers beholden to them.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Absolutely.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
30. No..
We're telling you that your ideas for protecting American jobs are stupid and unworkable.

Hint: The fact that even most liberal economists think it's stupid ought to tell you something.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. The Economic Crisis is the USA produces nothing to pay off our debts
So in other words - unless we are willing to sell off America (literally) one territory at a time to the foreign countries we owe so much money to - then we have got to manufacture
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
12. Excellent post! You've really nailed it, clearly and succinctly.
Thank you! :applause:

sw
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
13. You're absolutely right.
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 09:52 PM by OhioChick
There is a good article "out there" called "No Jobs, No Recovery."

K&R

On edit:

No Jobs, No Recovery

NAFTA and the sweetheart deal given to China and India must be canceled, otherwise the American worker and the financial stability of this nation will never recover. China's population is about six times the population of the United States, as is India's. The wage scale in both China and India is almost that of a shoe shine boy. The different wage scales in past history has required tariffs so as not to destroy the economies of all nations. Tariff is not a dirty word. It has been used to correct disparities in wages for thousands of years.

Outsourcing to the point of where we produce nothing is outrageous. America must re-build its industrial base, heavy industry and all, from the ground up. To agree to re-build our infrastructure and not our industrial base is sheer folly. This re-building must be done only with American products, not foreign.

Our industrial base allowed America to win World War II. We have no industrial base today. The American worker must demand this new administration cancel the trade deal with China and India and cancel NAFTA as its first order of business.

Bailouts cannot solve what our leadership has done to the American worker, starting with the ending of World War II. Lopsided trade deals appeased the greed of the few and have turned the financial world upside down. This problem is not only America's problem but is worldwide. The European Common Market and the creation of global industries, pitting workers worldwide against each other, have opened up a Pandora's Box. It can and is creating social unrest worldwide.

Our ports nationwide are busting at the seams with the products from all over the world, entering our nation duty free from nations whose wage scale is much lower than ours. This is why you have no job or if you are lucky enough to have a job, it does not keep you in your home.

http://www2.highlandstoday.com/content/2008/dec/14/no-j...
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. race to the bottom
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 09:49 PM by quaker bill
This is the nature of "free trade" and various other corporate economic and tax incentives. It sets up a geographic bidding war for lowest wages, lowest taxes, and fewest health, safety, and environmental protections, but that was the point. This is the reason Reagan pushed the concept while he was busting unions and making illegal wars on socialist movements. The point was to put our unionized workers in direct competition with folks who make 50 cents an hour to the greatest extent he could. It worked. Wages are lower and unions are smaller.

Of course, as a consequence, and the only possible outcome, our manufacturing sector has largely been destroyed, the economy is bankrupt, and our financial institutions are in the crapper. It took 28 years of concerted work for the Republicans to bring us to this place. This is why they do not want to do anything to respond, because this is where they always intended us to be. They get the gold mine, we ge the shaft. Curiously though they also seemed to feel that we should accept this as our patriotic duty and our lot in life to suffer at their discretion.

Only a few years back, they were expecting a "permanent majority". They did not expect the people would boot them from Washington and demand change. Oops.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. And More Handouts to the Rich
exacerbated the problem.

We need to redistribute wealth downward AND bring jobs back to this country.
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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
16. Supply Side economics is a total fraud. Here is why.
All economies are DEMAND driven. No economy is supply driven. If economies could be supply side driven, then General Motors, as an example, would be making lots of money.

Demand is based on two conditions: People having money to spend, and people wanting to spend money. Demand requires BOTH conditions to be met.

GM still has cars to sell and factories to build them in. The supply is there. If economies were supply driven, then GM would be selling lots of cars and making lots of money.

GM is not selling cars because there is NO demand. People either do not have money to buy cars, or they are not buying cars because they have fears of losing their jobs.

It is false to say that people are not buying because the stock market is down. The stock market does not drive the economy either. The stock market is a collection of corporate insider-controlled Ponzi schemes. Stock prices go up when lots of people buy the stock. When lots of people buy a stock, that is high demand, lots of dollars chasing a limited supply of stock shares, the price is bid up. It is the same as the real estate market. A lot of people bidding on the same house will try to outbid each other to make the sale. Keeping interest rates low, as the Fed did, encourages people to pay more for a house than it is "worth" (meaning what they could sell it for later on) because their payments will be low.

In the stock market, the aim of the insiders is to convince the stock buyers that their company's stock value will continue to increase, even when, as in the case of Enron, they were losing money. The insiders work hard (cook the books) to convince the public that the stock price will continue to increase, which it will so long as people keep throwing their money at it.

At some point, before the fraud is detected, the insiders sell their stock at a highly inflated price. This profit is termed capital gains and is taxed at a lower rate than what the employees who work for the company pay on their wages.

As long as demand is high, people will buy and prices will be bid up. When demand collapses, the prices will drop as sellers will drop the price to convince buyers to buy their goods. When people don't have the money to spend, prices can drop very quickly to a very low level, as sellers panic. This is why GM is not selling cars and the real estate prices collapsed.

Economies are demand driven. The only way to solve our economic problems is through "demand-side" economics. Bring jobs back to the U.S. At least 75 percent of what we buy should be produced by other Americans. Then money will circulate within the U.S. economy.

By all means, lets develop green jobs. Put people in the FDA, the EPA, OSHA, and other regulatory agencies who believe in protecting the health and welfare of the people and the planet. This will only work if a majority of the goods and services we buy come from Americans.

Moreover, Chinese labor will only progress when the Chinese companies understand that if they want to do business, they have to pay their workers enough money so that they can buy the goods that they produce.

The only trade that can occur profitably between countries is the marginal production, that is, the excess of what is produced to satisfy internal demand of that country.

This is simple economic fact. All the rest of what the pundits tell you is rubbish.
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Amen...The Great American House of Cards has Fallen !
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
20. but...but..."a rising tide lifts ALL boats" is what the've always told us about globalization...
they just forgot that in the REAL world, in order for the tide to go UP in one place, it has to go DOWN someplace else.


oops.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
21. K&R. nt
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
22. Agree that we need laws to protect American jobs.
We need to give the tax breaks to those who do their business here. There is no reason to give tax breaks to companies that move their operations out of the country.

We need to deal more harshly with exploitive foreign states that don't deal fairly with Americans trying to import into their country.
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Yetti_iamspider Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
24. Why must we think of ourselves as us and china as them?
Even though the idea of global alliance is pretty much a fantasy why must we all think that its about us and them? If the world will ever come together it will of course be far in the future and happen because of some huge event that will effect everyone and there will be no choice but to pull everyone together to prevent the worst. Now saying that why cant we try to convince others that if we come together now we may not be in such as big of a mess. Our economy is already being influenced by theres and visa versa. if we were to come together there would be no exporting, the jobs would be available in the most convenient of places where people would do the work. the companies wouldn't move shop because those people would work for less.

another problem with bringing back the jobs is that americans are lazy and greedy. we want more money and want to work less to get more. we have lived in a society that has had a large income so we could buy things we want rather than what we need. if people would look forward and think about what they need and see the changes that may come instead of expecting the government to keep there income high and spending there money on things of luxury than the economy wouldn't be so crazy. i know that todays life is about technology and all that stuff, but whats the point of a 64 inch plasma display if your not able to eat for a month because you thought the government was going to give you the money to eat. think about your needs and don't rely on government to do it for you. the government is suppose to be ran by the people in a democracy, its not suppose to be its own being.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Sure you're in the right place, Skippy?
That post was just about the dimmest thing I've ever read on the intrawebs.

I especially like this part:

another problem with bringing back the jobs is that americans are lazy and greedy. we want more money and want to work less to get more.


Only a fool wants to work harder for less money. What, exactly, is wrong with wanting to be paid more for the effort?

Do you give your raises back to your employer?

No?

Then you, too, must be "lazy and greedy".

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WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
25. I used to be a US manufacturer
Our company employed as many as 30 people. I got such personal satisfaction to know that I was providing for myself, my employees and their families, my community and other companies and my country, we exported and helped balance trade. For every manufacturing employee, another 10 workers are engaged. I was forced out of the US about 5 or 6 years ago, so now I provide for far fewer; now only the selling side of the equation.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
26. We need to create jobs here, without worrying about other
countries getting them.

Why focus on this? As long as there are enough jobs here, why focus on making sure people overseas don't get jobs?

The number of jobs in the world is not limited, to be distributed throughout the world. Just because someone abroad gets a job, doesn't mean we are deprived. Now they have money and can spend it, leading to jobs here.

People don't just fade away because they are not American. They aren't going to volunteer to starve so we can go back to 1990. We are creative enough to create new jobs, not just recycle old ones.
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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. You seem not to understand how the world economic system works.
I thought of a metaphor that might help you understand what this thread is trying to explain.

However, first I will respond to some of your comments.

I am not worried about job creation in other countries. What is problematic is that the corporations will use stimulus money intended to create jobs in the U.S. to TRANSFER these jobs to low-wage subsidiaries in foreign countries and ELIMINATE those jobs here in the U.S. In fact, this is precisely what the corporations have been doing for the past twenty years. This is the reason it is so difficult - and so rare - to find any product we buy that is labeled "Made in U.S.A." (remember that phrase?).

This is why we have high unemployment. This is why Americans have trouble paying their bills. This is the MAIN reason (not the stock market) why the U.S. economy is heading down the drain. This is why housing prices are dropping, why mortgage companies and banks are collapsing. If we hadn't been losing jobs, the financial and real estate scams would still be working. It is only when people can no longer buy into the scam that it collapses. If Americans still had jobs, even with the scams, they could pay off their loans and the economy could continue to sputter along.

I am not trying to deprive any one in other countries from having jobs. They can have all the jobs they want producing goods to sell in their own countries. The way the system is set up by the corporate cartels, those foreign workers do not get paid enough to be able to afford to buy anything manufactured in the U.S. The cartels have set up a system to ensure trade is one-way only, and they work to keep it that way. There is no "invisible hand" at work here. Under this system, there is no reason to produce anything here to sell there.

If we are not careful, any new jobs "created" here will be sent there very quickly. That is how profit is increased. I am not suggesting "recycling old jobs" such as buggy whips. I am suggesting recreating jobs here such as producing tools, electronics, "green" automobiles, toys, clothing, medicines, books, and other things like that that are now imported for us by the corporations.

The foreign workers will do better to be producing goods for their own markets, rather than for us, as their employers will have to pay them better wages if they want to sell their output. The reason foreign companies can afford to keep wages low is that they don't have to sell anything to their own employees. The companies ship it all here to the wealthy Americans to buy.

Now, for my clever metaphor.

We can compare an economy of a country to an automobile cooling system. The cooling system is a closed system in which a water pump in the engine pumps the water heated in the engine to a radiator where the heat is released into the air and then the cooled liquid circulates back into the engine to absorb more heat and continue the cycle. A well run economy works like this.

A small amount of the heated engine coolant is diverted to the car's heater to warm the passenger compartment and is then returned to the main system. The coolant is equivalent to the money in an economy.

Now imagine that the hose that attaches to the heater becomes detached. The coolant, instead of going back to the engine, is merely flowing onto the pavement down below. Very quickly, the system will run out of liquid, the engine will overheat, and eventually the system will fail.

When almost everything we buy is imported, then the economy's "coolant", the money, leaves the system, and the engine "overheats" and dies.

Offshoring all the goods we buy has drained our economy of its coolant and that is why it is failing. Producing most of the goods and services here will maintain a healthy economy. Imports should amount to only a small amount of "engine coolant" that is diverted to the heater, and should be offset by an equivalent monetary amount of exports. Then ALL economies will function properly.

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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
29. Yes, yes, it's all very simple when you ignore the facts and make shit up.
The main problem with our economy is that every time we make a purchase, the money we spend goes, not to other Americans who made those goods, but to Asia after the corporations take their profits.

No, that's wrong. Some of the money goes to the retailer, which is likely an American company. Some of the money goes to the manufacturer, which may or may not be an American company. Some will go to the manufacturer's subcontractors, which may or may not be American companies. And anyway, that's not the problem. This was just as true in the 90s as it is today. It's not the root cause of the problem.



This economy will not recover until NAFTA, the WTO, the IMF, the World Bank, and all those other corporate cartel agreements are eliminated so that American companies who want to manufacture here in America with American labor the everyday goods that we buy will be able to do so.


First of all, you don't even seem to understand what the IMF or the World Bank do. Second of all, again all of these things existed back in the 90s when the economy was good and unemployment was low. But don't let that get in the way of your rant.


Saying that the collapsing stock market or the banks lacking liquidity is causing the economic downturn is utter nonsense. The problem is the outflow of capital to Asia. This country is unemployed and running up its debt with no way to pay its bills.


Actually, nobody with a basic understanding of economics and two or three brain cells to rub together is saying that. What they have said, repeatedly, is that lack of regulation in the mortgage and derivatives markets was largely to blame.

Good Lord, half of the fucking time in here I feel like I'm having an argument with Pat Buchanan.
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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. I stand by what I have written. It explains the economy much better than what the pundits spout.
Edited on Mon Mar-09-09 02:27 AM by AdHocSolver
I have a degree in economics. I used to bring newspaper and magazine articles to class that contradicted the traditional economic mythology that the students were taught, but fitted well with economic definitions and theory.

Since they couldn't explain the discrepancies between the "facts" and their mythology, they merely belittled the evidence and decided I must not understand the material very well. Fortunately, I did well in my classes and got all A's and B's in my major area.

Your comment about the 1990's actually is a good example to prove my point. A significant amount of products and services were still produced by Americans in the 1990's and there were lots of jobs, and the economy was doing well. The scams were revving up back then, but because Americans were working (a lot of products were still "Made in America"), the economy was propped up.

There is the "official" explanation as to the functions of the IMF and the World Bank, and then there are the real results of how they operate. I had an economics class which described the role of the Fed (even requested and received materials from them). These materials did not describe the role of the Fed in helping banks perpetrate banking fraud.

The collapse of the mortgage and derivative scams occurred because the victims no longer had income to pay off their loans. If the people with subprime mortgages had their jobs and could still make payments, then the scams could have continued indefinitely. It was the default on the loans that collapsed the schemes. Then the derivatives based on the faulty loans were shown to be worthless. Then the "entire house of cards" collapsed.
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
31. Just as predicted,
the republican free trade apologists are showing up to defend the race to the bottom. They hang around here pretending to be good ole liberal progressive Democrats until the republican free trade agenda gets exposed, and then they go into attack mode. We are all idiots for not supporting the fake free trade agreements that are nothing more than investment/outsourcing scams to benefit a few rich investors and CEOs.
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