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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 06:23 PM
Original message
Why should we have to "earn" health care?
I've heard a conservative recently say that it's wrong that liberals think poor people should be "entitled" to health care. He said that working for health care gives poor people and minimum wage workers something to strive for.

So, they have to earn health care?

While we're at it, why not have us "earn" to have usable roads, firefighters, police officers, and food that we are 100% sure is edible too?

:eyes:
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Does this conservative have health care? Did he strive for it?
Or did someone just give it to him?
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. somebody should take it away from the con. and then he can earn it again
who is this moran?
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
32. well, if tax payer health care is not good enough for the rest of us...
then why is it good enough for congress!! too bad they get to give themselves raises and healthcare and whatever. imagine if we could just go to work and vote on getting raises. i wish we could strip the congress from any benefits they have like healthcare and they could have to deal with what WE have to deal with. as long as they operate in a different place than we do, they will not represent us and what we need.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. We shouldn't
Some conservatives have a real need to dominate other human beings. This is just one more way to do so.

Whenever they don't what to see everyone else getting something that they wish to reserve for themselves, they strike out and label it as a "privilege" for which the have-nots must prove their worthiness and hoping they won't.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. And how is it earned? Which CEOs and/or member(s) of congress do we have to sleep with to earn it?
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. For the same reason we have to "earn" a public education K-12: serfdom.
Radical conservatives and libertarians, who are on the same page in this regard, are *holes. In my opinion.

Hekate


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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. Here is my response to those assholes.
This is my experience with my ex-girlfriend. She was 25.

She passed out one day on a street in 100 degree humid weather of heat stroke, I road with her to the ambulance to the hospital. She started to come to in the ambulance, when we got to the hospital and they refused to treat her till they got a form of ID she said I need to go to the bathroom and talk to my boyfriend real quick than ran out the back door of the hospital.

The reason she did this is because she realized once they got her info she would get a bill for the ambulance which she made no choice to get on. That bill would be anywhere from 3000 to 5000 dollars and would be the equivalent of another car payment. The entire reason she didn't have insurance is because she was laid off and had to take a shitty job with no benefits till she found something better. She was college educated and paid through her own way through school through loans and working the entire time. I can say many things about her, not being hard working is not one of them. She took an unnecessary risk, because she didn't want to go deeper in debt on the $10 an hour job she was forced to take to tide her over till something better came along.

I told this story to every father of a teen age daughter I encountered at a door as my reason to support Barack Obama. You'd be amazed at how many people that swung.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. When I was in college and uninsured, I would go to the school clinic
see a doctor, and if I was not horribly sick (pneumonia) I would pay the $10 (this was 1967), and go back to the dorm & drink orange juice & wait it out..
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. In 1967 that was an option
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 07:22 PM by AllentownJake
If she wasn't as bright as she was about the US healthcare system she might have handed them her drivers license and would have gotten over a $3000 bill for passing out on a hot summers day. That's a car payment to pay it off in a year.

Than there is the possibility something more could have been wrong and something awful could have happened because she walked out

There is something fundamentally wrong with our society when someone who "did the right things" has to make those decisions. The point is no matter how hard you work, in today's society there is a good shot you will end up uninsured at some point in your life and might have to make that decision.
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serrano2008 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Geez good thing they didn't have to save her life.
So instead of your gf being grateful for them helping her with what could have potentially been a major problem, she leaves them without offering to pay anything for their help and services. You know who did pay for it? They pass the cost on to everybody else.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. You don't fucking get it
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 08:02 PM by AllentownJake
There shouldn't be a fucking charge for giving someone emergency care on the street.

You want to go back to the times you paid the fire department for putting out the fire in your house?


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serrano2008 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Well then who's going to fucking pay for it?
You just think a fucking group of fucking volunteers should roam the streets saving people's lives with their own tools and vans?

That would be fucking Xanadu!!!!
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Taxes jack ass
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 08:08 PM by AllentownJake
The argument is whether this is a public good like roads or a business. If you aren't a DLC shit head or a freeper troll you tend to side on its a public good. You do realize you are on a democratic website right? RIGHT?

If they charged a reasonable rate for an ambulance to people without insurance my ex would have paid for it. They don't and if she had insurance the insurance company would have got a bill for 1/3 of what her bill was.
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serrano2008 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. How do you know it would have been an unreasonable rate?
Your gf didn't stick around to find out. You assume if she had health insurance she would have had to pay 1/3 of the bill.

Many health insurance plans have ambulance rides covered, hell even Life Flight, at 100%.

Even without insurance the bill wouldn't have been thousands of dollars and even that amount you can bargain down to a small amount that is in line with your income level.

Stupid people like this make a system that wouldn't be nearly as bad as it is now worse, because they end up raising rates on all of us because your ex-gf wasn't grateful someone took care and may have possibly saved her life.

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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Both of us had worked in Healthcare
I audited hospitals at the time, she worked in the industry in other capacity. Lets just say we understand the billing system better than the average bear. I know for a fact what they charge someone with insurance and someone without insurance.

No hospital executives and Insurance executives raping the system is what makes the cost higher.

Blaming the middle class, so which shoes were your favorite that Sarah had during the election?

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serrano2008 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. And you do know where taxes come from right?
Uh...people pay them. Yep all of us.

Either you're going to complain about the cost of an ambulance or the cost you pay in taxes for ambulance services you never use.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I don't complain about my taxes paying for police
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 09:11 PM by AllentownJake
the fire department, or schools. I've never called the police or fire department and I don't have children. Why the fuck would I complain about my taxes paying for healthcare. As long as when I need it, its there and efficient why do I care?

I pay a tax through a reduced wage, monthly co-pays, and co-pays and coinsurance when I get sick now. What the fuck is the difference other than I'd pay less money, get more services, and more people would get covered than me.

I guess good socialism vs. bad socialism because some asshole hasn't figured out how to make a profit over something that you shouldn't be making a profit from.

BTW how was Rush's show Friday?
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
31. How much do you reckon your share of that bill is?
Figure it out and I'll send you a check, myself.

And I'm on fixed income.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. I've never taken an ambulance ride or called for one for otheres
even though it was probably the proper call, because of the cost associated with it.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I wouldn't have been exactly sure what to do, I didn't make the call
a women standing two feet away made the decision when she fell over and I caught her and was trying to talk to her.

However, I'm pretty sure since she was out for about 10 minutes I would have made the call after 1 minute and thirty seconds.
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ejpoeta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
33. i went in an ambulance which took me to mercy flight which took me to the hospital.
In 1997 I was in a car accident. I did not have a seatbelt on and from what i was told, the car flipped like three times, ejected me from the passenger window and then landed on top of me. I don't really remember much. I woke up and couldn't move. I looked at the moon in the sky through branches of some sort. I could hear my boyfriend talking. I realized i was under the car. No one asked me if I wanted to go in an ambulance. No one asked me about the helicopter. Who knows what internal bleeding and such could have been going on. In the end I had glass in my eyes, glass in my hands and on my face, lots of bruises and a broken leg. a hairline fracture. I was damned lucky. The car insurance was supposed to pay for everything,as i did not have insurance, but I still have charges from the ambulance service on my credit report. I discovered it there years after the accident.

When you are incapacitated, you don't really get a say in whether you go in an ambulance or a helicopter. The fire department we have here is a volunteer ambulance and fire department. And I am not opposed to charges for an ambulance or mercy flight. But the problem is when we have a system that doesn't include a lot of people in it. Not because they are lazy or don't want insurance... but because it is cost prohibitive and insurance companies will expect you to NOT take an ambulance. or you are supposed to call and get approval first. or any number of triggers in place to be able to deny coverage for any number of things. this is because they are in it for a profit. the ambulance service and firefighters weren't involved for money. they were there to save a life. It's supposed to be about helping people. And when you bring monetary incentive into something, that can sometimes take away from the primary incentive. which is supposed to be about helping people.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. Not just No, but Hell No!
n/t
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. I said it before and I will say it again ...... greedy, heartless motherfuckers are the ones .......
..... opposed to universal health care.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
16. I Still Have Very Mixed Feelings On This
Health care depends on another human being to serve you.

Under what conditions can that person decline, as one must be able to decline to serve or we now have forced labor.

You can't meet their fee?

You behave like an ass?

You have bad breath?
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Emergency care
How the hell is that free market. If you call an ambulance do you get to pick which ambulance picks you up? Do you get to pick which Hospital the ambulance takes you to? Did you make the call for the care?

If you look at the cost of care, emergency care is the most expensive if you don't have insurance. The mark up on an ambulance from someone who doesn't have insurance compared to someone who has private insurance, medicaid, or medicare is astronomical and chances are you didn't even make the decision.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Mixed feelings on what?
Every human being deserves to be treated with dignity and deserves to be treated if their life could end because of their illness.

When health care becomes like every other business - for profit - there's a serious problem. This is an ethical issue and at this point in the progress of humanity you would think we'd have figure out how to take care of those who need it.

I don't get how you can have mixed feelings when it comes to caring for others.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #20
34. Is It Really So Much Easier
Edited on Sun Mar-08-09 08:12 AM by NashVegas
to throw darts at someone than to consider long-term implications?
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. "Health care depends on another human being to serve you."
So do restaurants. :eyes:

How about those folks in the military? They sometimes DIE serving. :eyes:

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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. So does the Fire Department
If my neighboor is a fire fighter and he thinks I'm an asshole, I'm guessing if he gets the call to put the fire out for my house, he'll still do it.
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. The police, firefighters, public defenders, and public school teachers all have to serve...

...these are all among professions in which workers have to serve any and every member of the public, no matter what. Why should healthcare be different?

If a public worker does not like having to serve any and every person who comes along, they are completely free to find a different profession. It's not forced labor at all.

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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Let's Look At Those
Police and firefighters don't go into 6 years training and massive debt to finance their certification. Police, in some instances, are free to use their own discretion whether or not they want to charge a person.

Public defenders have the opportunity to recuse themselves or go into private practice.

Public school teachers have the opportunity to boot or penalize an uncontrollable student, or go into private schools.


Shall I assume you are a proponent of a two-tier system of public health care workers and private health care workers, as well?

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. In Canada, the government picks up the tab for med school
Sounds like a good idea to me.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
35. None of those reasons would qualify as a justification for the fire department
--refusing to put out a fire. Why should a heart attack be any different?
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sweetpotato Donating Member (678 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
17. We do "earn" those roads, firefighters, etc - we pay taxes
Why can't we pay taxes for healthcare and "earn" it that way?
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. because someone is making a nice profit off of it right now.
and heaven forbid we interfere with someone making a profit even if it is for the public good.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
22. 'Cuz it's the 'Murkin Way!
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
37. Good point...
Health care is a right, and is accepted as such in many countries.

Illness is not a punishment for laziness, though it may often be a *cause* of so-called laziness.

I find these RW views really shocking; they sound like something that Scrooge might have said before his reformation.
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