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JMDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 02:51 PM
Original message
If a CIA paid shill was posting here and you found out, you couldn't say anything
It is a felony to reveal the identity of someone clandestinely on the payroll of the CIA.

The CIA does put out millions of dollars a year into payments for just such shills, according to John Stockwell, highest ranking agent to come out and discuss what the CIA does. (Books: Praetorian Guard, In Search of Enemies, Killing Hope). According to Stockwell, many of them are college professors. I bet more than a few hang out on forums such as this one.

I find it amazing that a thread titled "Holy Mother Fucker the Church" is completely acceptable in the General Discussion forum and on the Greatest Threads Page, but anything discussing any conspiracy theory is first swarmed upon by a tag team of detractors and "debunkers", then put into a forum that doesn't get much exposure, and is also removed from the "Greatest Threads" page to further reduce its exposure. I can understand eventually putting such discussions into their correct forum, but to make them "disappear" seems downright weird to me.

As a final thought -- why aren't the theories of Sybil Edmunds, Naomi Wolfe, an Naomi Klein also considered conspiracy theories? I guess I can't figure out at all where the line is drawn between the "Kooky conspiracy nut theories" an conspiracy theories that are acceptable to discuss in the open. Apparently 9/11, all political assassinations, and election fraud issues are considered
"nut job theories", not to be discussed in the light of day.

Is the line drawn due to the ferociousness of the arguments that ensue? Well, if there are paid detractors here (that we would never learn about) then the debate can pretty much be controlled by a select few individuals, no? In addition, it seemed like the Hillary / Obama wars were allowed to rage for months, and they almost tore this place in two, yet they were not stifled.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's very simple. EVIDENCE n/t
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
41. Nope. There's a great deal of evidence and even documentation verifying
events that are shunted off to the forums. So, evidence is not the deciding criteria.


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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Like the majority of eye witnesses being completely ignored
in favor of the official story? Stuff like that?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. No, evidence means facts that haven't been refuted
The "evidence" surrounding some of the wacky Inside Job stuff has been refuted. And the "evidence" around some of the stolen election stuff amounts to one incident in one county somewhere. Too much of what passes for evidence is nothing more than hyperbole, and too often real evidence never sees the light of day because the hyperbole has taken over the conversation.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. I refute that.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. I don't think it's illegal for somebody to identify someone clandestinely on the payroll of the CIA.
ibtl
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. So, in summary, Skinner works for the CIA.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. That's very possible.
I don't say that on a personal level, but this is exactly the kind of thing the CIA would set up.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
32. I just carried that thought to the CIA having a fund drive where we give out hearts to each other
LOL!
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I don't think you understand.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. where's your sense of whimsy?
seesh
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JMDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. I did not say or mean that.
What I meant is that certain topics draw such ferocious discussion that this forum seems to have no choice but to suppress them for whatever reasons. I'm not sure of those reasons.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. Controlled by a "select few"
True.
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sixmile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. Is it a felony if you're only guessing?
I hope the agency has better things to tend to, but I doubt it.



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JMDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I am running on what Stockwell said in his book
"The Praetorian Guard". So no I don't know this as an absolute fact. I'm relying on Stockwell.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yep. Nobody may say that I'm on the payroll of the CIA.
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 02:59 PM by Occam Bandage
Now please look very intently into my avatar...
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. The debunkers are quite easy to identify as are the AIPAC helpers. Then there
are freeper types who want DU to look bad.

I don't think the CIA/FBI/Military/Interpol types are very clever.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. Debunkers are cool
Like with this thread here. Why would the CIA spend money trying to post on the Internet when there are millions of posts out there a day and nobody listens to anybody?

Unless someone can predict what will go viral and slip falsehoods onto the net that can change the result of something important, I don't see any profit here. Debunking is the last thing ever to go viral.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
10. I am fairly certain that there are paid disseminators
of dis-information that post on this as well as other political websites.

Like some long-time posters here that are accepted as members in good standing, but are nothing but negative and contradictory in their posting, their agenda is usually fairly easy to spot.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. {REDACTED}
{CLASSIFIED}
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DeepBlueC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. lol
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. If you caught this website in violation of its own Rules,
you couldn't say anything either.

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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. While we're at it, why are the JFK threads being sent to the dungeon?
Was there a decision made recently? An incident? Was it not so recent and I just missed it?
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Are they highly speculative conspiracy theories?
Then they go in the dungeon, per the rules.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. What rules?
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Marquess of Queensberry rules, obviously.
Or, you know, the DU rules.

Do not quote or link to "conspiracy theory" websites, except in our September 11 forum, which is the only forum on Democratic Underground where we permit members to debate highly speculative conspiracy theories. A reasonable person should be able to identify a conspiracy theory website without much difficulty.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Haven't JFK threads been permitted in GD until, like, today?
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. I honestly have no idea. I don't have much interest in JFK threads. If they've changed their
Edited on Sat Mar-07-09 03:30 PM by Occam Bandage
policy of enforcement, I'd find that somewhat surprising, and it's fair to ask about that.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. Hey, wait, I just realized something.
The JFK thread I'm thinking of was started by somebody who DOESN'T believe in conspiracy to murder President Kennedy.

Maybe I have this whole thing backwards.
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Or do they get in the way of someone's money?
Would those Rules be the ones that are so selectively enforced here? You know. The ones that a certain protected class are allowed to break with such impunity?

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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Only we CIA members are allowed to discuss Kennedy conspiracy theories, to protect our money.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
16. Wrong. Read the law more closely.
There are several (somewhat independent) prequalifiers to make it unlawful ... such as a security clearance that permitted one to obtain such information to begin with. Mens rea is another condition - one must KNOW (not just suspect) that someone's a covert agent and it can't be thought to be "general knowledge."

Not EVERY 'thing I wouldn't do' is unlawful or even immoral. :shrug:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
19. What college professor has time to do something like that?
Anyway, give me an application.
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JMDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. ????
Let's say you are making $70,000 a year as a college professor, and the CIA offers you an extra $100,000 a year to put out articles that THEY wrote under your name pushing some point they want to push. Stockwell says this happens all the time. No work, but a lot of money.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
45. Guy named McAdams comes to mind.
John McAdams researches and comments on the assassination of Presidente Kennedy.

Runs roughshod over anyone who doesn't agree with Warren Commission.

Hi, Doc! Not sayin', just sayin'.
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JMDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. Yes, McAdams
I've known him since 1992 on the alt.conspiracy.jfk boards, back before the web existed.

He was a professor at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey. Naval intelligence was his specialty, I believe.
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screembloodymurder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
20. I am 100% sure building #7 was demolished.
It's no conspiracy, it's a fact.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. You are 100% wrong. n/t
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Conspiracies are facts.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. LOL Did you mean to prove the OP's point?
:rofl:
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
27. Can't be. If that were true, someone could get convicted for it,
not just obstruction or perjury.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
28. Why do you continue to support and post at a website where the CIA is allowed to run rampant?
Seriously. You think that a few paid shills are all that's needed to take over a website?

This place has an Ignore button on every post and an Alert button as well. When you find someone who you think is a paid CIA shill, alert their post and inform the moderators of your evidence supporting this accusation. If they don't do anything about it, then put the paid shill on your Ignore list. That doesn't stop the paid shills (in your opinion) from posting what they consider to be rebuttal of your posts, but what do you care if they're just paid CIA shills?

The truth is, you know good and darned well that there are probably no paid shills here at all. DUers are a diverse bunch and not all of us think the same way as you on every issue. You can learn a lot from the people you disagree with, but only as long as you think of them as human and upfront about how they think.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. You can't expect people to just uproot and become Quakers.
Oh... Wait... Maybe the Quaker thing doesn't work here.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. If these 'shills' are paid, the CIA should get its money back
The disinfo-oids are so obvious as to be funny
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
33. Since when has it been legal for the CIA to be used against the American People?
General rule.... The USA is guilty of every crime imagined, whether people want to accept this or not. Especially the CIA.
'They (enemy) would do it to us, so we have a right to do it too.'

It's also known as a Republican 'strategizing.'
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
53. Take it from Shrubs Mouth
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004 Video of this quote Audio of this quote
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
35. Your information is wrong. It is not a felony.
Per haps if you are also a government employee or contractor and came by the information of a CIA agent in the course of your work, then it would be considered a felony. But if you as a private citizen came across the info and revealed that person to be a covert agent then it is not ilegal.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
37. to me
it's sad that so many bright people are gone, and so many abrasive, and even disruptive, further to the right (ok "center" if it makes some ppl happy) people remain.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
47. your post brought to my mind
the felonies committed by the bushies with respect to valerie plame. but i guess if i did it it would be treated as a felony, and i'd go to prison.

for the record i don't believe the OCT regarding 911, nor that JFK, MLK, or RFK were killed by lone assassins.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
48. I'd like to take a moment to identify Judith Miller as a clandestine CIA asset.
Resume.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
49. Sorry but this isn't as public a forum as you think it is...it has rules and owners.
If you want a public forum to discuss conspiracy theories take your soap box down to the real public square and jump up on it and start spouting - and if you really don't expect to be heckled there either... then keep your day job because show business isn't for you...

:eyes:
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Conspiracy theories are the backbone of this public forum.
From elections, to wars, to efforts to undermine our civil rights, it's all about the conspiracies and our theories in those regards.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Umm..nope...they aren't they go to the conspiracy dungeon
away with ye now..
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JMDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. My mistake
I thought freedom of speech was a Democratic ideal. I must have been entirely wrong.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. yep..this place has rules...deal with it...nt
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
50. This is SO flame bait and calling out the mods!
Do you REALLY expect not to get locked friend?
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Chocolate is delicious. But not necessarily bait.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. You know some people are now saying..choclate. ..flames. ..not the same thing...
:crazy:
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. It's a question of intent.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. No it's a question of kind...
Flames are flames..

choclate is yummy.
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JMDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. Wow -- you are upset!
Not flame bait. Just posing the question -- where is the dividing line between "conspiracies" and "acceptable discussion".

So far there has been very little flaming going on in this thread, it seems.
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ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. The OP is accusatory and derogatory of other members and the mods.
that in and of itself makes it flamebait.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
63. RE: "Holy Mother Fucker the Church"
First of all, read the thread. If you HAVE read it already, I think you have an interesting definition of completely acceptable. Nance takes a mild beating in there.

I do understand your point about different treatment for 'reasonable' conspiracy theories vs 'wackjob' conspiracy theories. But that is also nothing new, and certainly not restricted to to the Democratic Underground.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
64. paranoia
Paranoia is in the eye of the beholder.

"anything discussing any conspiracy theory is first swarmed upon by a tag team of detractors and "debunkers", then put into a forum that doesn't get much exposure, and is also removed from the "Greatest Threads" page to further reduce its exposure. I can understand eventually putting such discussions into their correct forum, but to make them "disappear" seems downright weird to me."


What you describe, what's considered "kooky" and fair game fair game for attack, extends to a whole range of topics that are progressive, but are treated as "fringe."

The problem with discussions on most of those is not the topic but the behavior, which is not consistently respected under DU Rules, which would prevent the detractors and attackers if they followed them.

The problem is not "disagreement" but blunt force posts intended to shut down discssion -- maybe even the thread -- for other DUers. If the initial posts of "disagreement" actually resembled discussion, it could work. Instead, it is "first swarmed upon by a tag team of detractors and "debunkers"."

The unique opportunity that DU provides to discuss openly with many others, NOT in an echo chamber, and learn from each other, on many topics is prevented by blatant hostility and an unidentified prejudgment of what "normal" is.

Many of those topics are interconnected and are crucial for discussion. The fact that they aren't tolerated or accepted or allowed to breathe is a mystery.

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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
65. IBTL
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-07-09 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
66. Locking
Please do not start threads to call out other members or question the decisions of the moderators. If you feel there is a rule violation, please use the alert button. If you do not agree with the decisions of the moderators, feel free to contact the administrators of the site.

Thanks,

cbayer
DU Moderator
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