Holy Mother-Fucker The Church

[NanceGreggs]

Holy Mother-Fucker The Church

Warning for the faint-of-heart: If you didn’t like the title, you’re going to really hate the content herein – so you might want to mosey on over to a site (which I’m sure exists somewhere on the internetz) where you can post your confession, along with a heartfelt-type Act of Contrition, and be given an appropriate penance for having opened this thread in the first place.

Just when you thought the Catholic Church couldn’t get any more hypocritical than it’s been for the last two thousand years, you come across a news piece like this http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0306...
and you wonder, yet again, how a religion allegedly based on the teachings of The Nazarene ever wound up adopting the doctrine of “Do unto the Little Children as you would have done to the worst torture-supporting war criminal you can possibly imagine – and then some.”

Apparently, Catholic Archbishop José Cardoso Sobrinho of Olinda and Recife “has sparked controversy in Brazil by saying the mother of a nine-year-old girl who had an abortion on Wednesday following a rape is automatically excommunicated for allowing the procedure to go ahead.”

Way to go, your esteemed archbishop-prick (that is the correct form of address, is it not?) Wouldn't want to OFFEND.

I think it only fair to point out that after an internet search, I couldn’t find ONE FUCKIN’ WORD about how outraged you were when the church was embroiled in allegations of child molestation perpetrated by pedophile priests on vulnerable children of both sexes. Just a Google oversight, to be sure – or maybe you should be dipping into the collection plate for a better publicist.

So now you’re going about excommunicating the people who have tried, to the best of their ability, to undo the damage done to a NINE-YEAR-OLD PREGNANT RAPE VICTIM. Hey, Your Holier Than Thou-ness, ever considered the fact that – according to the tenets of the religion you espouse to act for – it is the innocent who are to be protected rather than punished?

Jesus Hussein Christ, where the fuck were you and your self-righteous ilk when innocents were being tortured and slain in Iraq and Afghanistan – and all over the world? Oh, that’s right – you were busy covering-up the crimes of Holy Mother-Fucker The Church. Sins of Omission and Commission – a tidy little package of immorality that could be swept from the global soul with a novena murmured in a back pew – accompanied by a substantial financial contribution, just to make true contrition “official” and all.

“The CHILD was raped by her stepfather, who has since admitted abusing her over the last three years. Abortion is generally illegal in Brazil but allowed in cases of rape or when the pregnancy endangers the mother’s life.”

“The CHILD entered hospital in the northeastern city of Recife on Tuesday night, where she was given medication to interrupt the pregnancy, which doctors said was terminated by early Wednesday morning. She was pregnant with twins."

"The archbishop’s statements have drawn condemnation from Brazilian politicians and caused disquiet among some theologians concerned by the difficulties raised by the case."

God, give me strength

“But Archbishop Cardoso Sobrinho has denied media reports that he personally ordered the excommunications. ‘I simply recalled what is in church canon law. Excommunication is automatic for those who participate in an abortion. I did not excommunicate anyone, just remembered the church’s law which says they are automatically excommunicated,’ he said.”

You “simply recalled”? Where was your power of simple recall when thousands of victims of sexual abuse by Catholic priests finally came forward and told their stories? Or were you too busy scrambling to find a heretofore unpublished portion of the Sermon on the Mount – the part where Christ said, “And Blessed are those who look the other way, and settle out-of-court, for Theirs is the Kingdom of Hypocrisy”?

“The doctor who carried out the procedure has defended his actions. ‘If the pregnancy had continued, the damage would have been worse, being a high risk pregnancy. The risk would have been of death or at the very least that she would never have been able to become pregnant again,’ Dr Olímpio Moraes told O Globo newspaper.”

One can only wonder how long, had the CHILD survived full-term pregnancy and childbirth, it would have taken a cretin like you to pronounce her “unworthy” marriage material because she couldn’t fulfill her God-given mandate of procreating as part of her conjugal duties. Because producing children is the be-all and end-all of what marriage is about, isn’t that right – Your Archbishop-prick?

“There are two legal justifications for abortion envisioned by the law, which are rape and risk to life. She falls within the two and, as a doctor, I could not let a girl of nine years be submitted to this suffering and even pay with her own life.”

Well, no doubt God is gonna get a doctor who thinks that protecting the life of a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD is more important than – oh, I’m suddenly at a loss here. More important than WHAT, according to you?

“But Archbishop Cardoso Sobrinho has dismissed the fact that the abortion was legal under Brazilian law as irrelevant to the question of excommunication. ‘God’s law is above whatever human law. So when a human law is contrary to God’s law, this human law has no value,’ he said.

Well, I gotta agree with you there, Archbishop-prick Sobrino. God’s law is above human law – and I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around whatever “law” it is you and your kind are passing off as God’s law.

I’ve read the New Testament back to front, and I don’t remember an admonishment that NINE YEAR OLD RAPE VICTIMS, or those who help them, should be subject to excommunication – or any fate that doesn’t include protection from criminals, and the prosecution of same to the fullest extent of the law – secular or religious law, as the case may be.

I write this in the knowledge that I will make not enemies, but friends, among the Catholic community – because I am talking about “Catholics” in the true sense of the word, those who adhere to the Word of Christ - who are as appalled by your words and actions as any human being with a modicum of empathy and a sense of true justice would be.

You might want to read the words of Jesus sometime, when you can spare a minute from being a hypocritical asshole. They are truly inspiring, and have absolutely nothing to do with what you’ve said, or who you have shown yourself to be.

And if you still have a conscience, you might want to start doing a good examination thereof right about now.

You fuckin’ prick.

[BuyingThyme]

1. You're coming across as a skosh judgmental.

Amen.

[Suich]

2. Amen!

K & R!

[janx]

3. It has always been this way with the Roman Catholic Church.

Edited to add: at least in my 51-year-old lifetime. There were years before priests were not ordered to be celibate, but that was a long time ago.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. My dear Nance ...

You have said it so much more clearly than I certainly ever could.

I was outraged to read about this hypocrite Archbishop and what he had to say...

Thank you for showing him, and all us, what the moral high ground looks like.

K&R

And I weep for the little girl, who has been robbed of her childhood, along with so much else.

[ekwhite]

5. I am appalled by Archbishop Sobrino

I thought one of the things Jesus taught was compassion, but maybe I'm just confusing him with the Buddha. The very idea that the girl's mother and the girl's doctor should be excommunicated for trying to do the right thing for a nine-year-old rape victim is inhuman.

[Mariana]

12. I didn't notice the archbishop saying anything

about excommunicating the fucking RAPIST who put this little girl in this position in the first place!

Interesting.

[Boojatta]

40. Are you suggesting that there's something incongruous about a rapist being a member in good standing

of the Roman Catholic Church? Surely the Roman Catholic Church has been around for long enough that they know what kind of person they want to rub shoulders with.

[reggie the dog]

226. the rapist acted out God's will

and should be commended for it. After all he let his body be used as an agent of God's will because it is really God who ordered the devine rape. The girl and her mother worked wickedness against God's will and should go to hell for it.

[Frisbee]

220. I was thinking the same thing...

Guess he'll just go to confession and all will be forgiven.

[reggie the dog]

224. rape does not get you excommunicated

you see, it was God's will that the little girl be raped. The rapist is just an actor of God and really should not even be charged with a crime as he did nothing but carry out God's will. The little teasing whore on the other hand, aborted a child. When she did that she went against God's will and should not only eternally burn in hell, but so should her mother because she let her daughter have the abortion. They should both go to hell as they worked against God's will. The man has no guilt and as an agent of God should be sent to heaven after his death for being such a good helper to God. The little whore, I mean little girl and her mother should be put to death for murder and working against the will of God so that they may begin their eternal damnation to hell.

[Cha]

6. Poor little thing..and then to have

her excommunicated when at her age that's what she holds on to(I would think) is the height of insensitivity.

I hate dogma.

[Dorian Gray]

70. They didn't excommunicate

the girl. She is not responsible, legally or morally, for what happened to her.

She was only 9.

And the poor poor baby. (meaning the nine year old.) She's gone through so much.

[deaniac21]

101. Whew, I thought you were talking about the fetus for a moment!

[Cha]

111. I'm sorry..I didn't

read that closely enough..well, then the mother of the little girl who was raped did the only thing possible and shouldn't be punished by the dogma of her church.

[Dorian Gray]

149. I agree....

I'm curious whether the stance of the archbishop is going to be defended by the vatican or not.

I understand that abortion is considered murder, but I believe that in circumstances where the mother's life is in danger, it is allowed in Catholic dogma. And I think that a 9 year old body is unlikely to be able to carry twins to term, threatening her life. I honestly believe that the mother did the only thing she could do. And I hope this child never knows what she went through. She's gone through enough with the abuse. Poor kid.

[smokey nj]

204. According to this item posted in LBN, the Vatican is standing with the archbishop.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[ladym55]

7. Spare us these idiots in the Catholic clergy

When I USED to think about Catholic priests, I thought about brave priests standing with the poor and oppressed in Latin American countries against brutal dictatorships and getting shot for their efforts ... or going to prison to take stands against nuclear weapons ... or protesting war.

NOW I think about narrow-minded pompous ASSES who have no CLUE what it means to follow Christ. It it ain't about abortion (or stem cell research), it don't count apparently. Yep, let's have a NINE YEAR OLD INCEST VICTIM give birth to twins. That will just be TERRIFIC all around ... healthy for EVERYBODY.

It's an AWESOME way to make an entire religion a farce instead of a faith. Hey, padre, I know there are LOTS of poor and hungry in Brazil. How about working on some of Jesus' teachings on caring for the least of my brothers?? Helping them get food and justice and stuff?? Just askin'.

[ladym55]

8. Self-delete repeat

[dysfunctional press]

9. i'm pro-choice, 110%, but i think that pro-lifers who make exceptions are raging hypocrites.

either the fetus is a human life or it isn't. the circumstances surrounding it's conception are immaterial to whether or not it is a human life.

[arikara]

14. Please don't ever offer them the dignity of calling them "pro-life"

they are anything but that. No one who is "pro-life" would ever advocate that a 9 year old child be forced to bear the twins of her rapist step-father.

Those hypocrits selected the label to make themselves appear reasonable, and they are not. Anti-abortionist, anti-choice or even anti-women all fit but not pro-life.

[dysfunctional press]

19. the two sides of the issue are pro-choice and pro-life. i identify each side by it's chosen term.

but you're welcome to play all the stupid semantic games you want.

[arikara]

36. Had a bad day?

Maybe you need a hug.

[caseymoz]

90. and if you can save one instead of losing three lives?

[Bjorn Against]

93. The right-wing does not get to decide what the English language means.

The word "pro-life" means exactly what the English language says it means, it does not mean what the anti-choice extremists have spinned it to mean. The English language is our language, it does not belong to the right-wing and they can not lay claim to the language without having to defend their inaccurate use of words.

If they were truly pro-life they would oppose war, they would oppose the death penalty, they would support potentially life saving stem cell research, and they would oppose torture. Instead they only stand for the life of the fetus...when it does not get in the way of their political agenda that is. They do not support the life of the fetus when that fetus is threatened by the mercury that their corporate contributors release into our environment. Mercury is one of the most dangerous substances that an unborn child is likely to be exposed to, and yet one of the Bush Administration's first moves upon taking office in 2001 was to relax regulations on mercury emissions and the right-wing "pro-lifers" cheered him on despite their rhetoric about protecting the fetus. In addition these right-wing hypocrites have long supported "free-trade" agreements with countries who actually force their female employees to have abortions when they get pregnant. Yes, the Republican may oppose a woman's right to choose but they support forced abortions as long as it means that they can get cheap labor overseas.

The word "pro-life" is not owned by the right-wing and if they choose to us that word then we have a right to use the English language correctly and point out all the death and destruction that their policies bring. We don't get to choose what the words of the English language mean, and neither does the right-wing.

[dgibby]

146. Excellent! Thank you!

Wish you'd been around last week when I got into a verbal knockdown with a Catholic friend, who told me I was a "baby murderer" because I was "pro abortion". Of course, in addition to being Catholic, she listens to Faux Snooze, Rush, Hannity, Glen Beck, and Bill O., so I don't know what else I could expect.

I told her that I wasn't pro abortion, I was pro choice, and that while I respected her religious beliefs, it was a medical issue between a woman and her doctor, and that's why the founders thought it was important to separate church from state.

I also told her that perhaps she should concentrate on helping the children already born, since she complains incessantly about social welfare programs and where her tax money is going, and that the hypocracy of the pro-lifer's is astounding.

She went on to tell me that Obama is the Anti-Christ and a Socialist, to boot. The stupidity, it burns!

[marew]

208. Amazing stupidity!

I believe Jesus brought up helping the poor once or twice?!? So your friend doesn't believe in social welfare...gosh golly, "social welfare" was my major as an undergrad. She must be some selfish bitch. I'll bet she's never volunteered in a soup kitchen, for Hospice, or for anything that helps people and if she did she'd be looking down her nose at them. What happened to "There but for the grace of God, go I?" Or "Love one another?"
And regarding Obama being the antichrist. Last week Rachel Maddow had those crazies who made a fortune writing that "Left Behind" series on her program. They said Obama COULDN'T be the antichrist because (1) not everyone supports him and I guess that's part of the deal and (2) the so-called 'rapture' hasn't taken place yet. All those saintly christians are still stuck here with us sinners. The antichrist emerges AFTER the rapture, they said. So your friend doesn't know what she's talking about, even in her wacko circles.
My favorite evangelical story is the gal who told me the earth is only about 2,000 years old. I said carbon dating proves otherwise. She said, with a straight face, that the great flood covered everything with water and so everything changed chemically to make things look much older than they really are. They all must take stupid pills!
I will have nothing to do with religion of any kind. I was brought up catholic and saw the hypocrisy a long, long time ago.

[dysfunctional press]

169. but afaic, they do get to pick their 'team name'.

you're free to use whatever term you prefer... i'll continue to identify the two sides as pro-life and pro-choice.

[Bjorn Against]

174. This is not a sports league, we don't have team names.

If they are going to use propaganda to represent themselves as something they are not then they need to be challenged on it.

[dysfunctional press]

175. then challenge them if you like. that's your prerogative.

my prerogative is to use the phrase(s) i choose. and like the vast majority of people- i will continue to identify the two sides as 'pro-choice' and 'pro-life'.

[Pacifist Patriot]

102. Even if the chosen terms are inaccurate and framed for propaganda purposes?

The issue is pro-choice or anti-choice when it comes to a woman's/couple's decision making ability with respect to their own reproduction. Pro-life has naught to do with it. Selecting proper terminology is not a matter of stupid semantic games, it is keeping the debate on topic.

[dysfunctional press]

170. even if.

[RetroLounge]

110. Bullshit

They are anti-chice, and anti-women.

and they are asshats.

RL

[Pacifist Patriot]

116. You expressed that so much more succinctly than I.

[LiberalPersona]

131. Of course you realize

that saying that basically means you're insulting Susan B. Anthony, who was pro-life.

[RetroLounge]

148. OMG! I insulted Susan B. Anthony????

That's gotta be the absolute lamest thing I've ever heard here.




Oh, and her dollar coins suck ass too.

RL

[dysfunctional press]

171. and you're entitled to your opinion, and to use whatever moniker you see fit.

i'll continue to identify the two sides as pro-choice and pro-life- as do the VAST majority of americans.

[RetroLounge]

182. The vast majority of right wing and brainwashed americans

have at it...



RL

[dysfunctional press]

186. actually that still works out to the vast majority of americans.

but just keep on 'raging at the machine'...

[omega minimo]

211. Your logic is half vast

This subthread is a good example of how the "motherfucking" of language and insinuating propaganda in to the mainstream works.

"The chosen term" of anti-choice forces is a Big Lie, do you know what that is? You do their bidding, you enable their cause when you insert there false meme into your own self-proclaimed pro-choice position. They're the ones Has "the machine" touched your life yet?

Despite several informative posts in the subthread, you won't budge on your respect for "team names," claim to know what the "vast majority of Americans" think about this and refuse to consider any of the comments posted here.

How did you get indocrtainated? Why is supposed respect for "chosen team names" more important than the meaning, impact and manipulation behind the "team name" that is against the reproductive freedom and privacy you claim to support?

While you mock "raging at the machine" and "playing semantic games," ya might want to look into the connection b/w "semen" and "semantic," inseminated into the language long before the anti-choice bigots started playing these mind games.

[rhett o rick]

179. Yes we know that and we are asking that you not identify the hypocrites by their

self appointed name that implies that we all are not pro-life. Just because they want to be called that doesn't mean you HAVE to do it.

[dysfunctional press]

189. being pro-choice, i support letting each side CHOOSE it's ownname for itself.

and i'd hate to think that anyone who identifies themselves as 'pro-choice' would feel any different.

[Bette Noir]

48. The doctor himself said that the little girl would be likely to die

if she were forced to carry twins to term. Isn't it "pro-life" to preserve the life of that poor little girl?

It is her rapist who should be excommunicated, and the archbishop who condemned her, and not the mother who took her to the doctor, or the doctor who saved her life.

[PeaceNikki]

132. I strongly agree with you and HATE the self-proclaimed term they use.

They are anti-choice and not "pro" anything.

[Eryemil]

29. I agree. At least the bishop's not a hypocrite like so many others.

[ConsAreLiars]

41. Charles Manson was also "not a hypocrite."

But you get to choose your side, as do those of us who oppose child rape and religion-based child abuse and oppression of women. These Taliban-clones in Christianity, Catholic or Protestant or whatever, are no less vile than those who ran the witch trials or the Inquisition. But, of course, you get to choose your own friends.

[Generic Other]

85. Hear Hear!

I fail to see the difference between forcing the child to give birth as punishment for being raped and stoning her in the public square. You are absolutely right. The Christian talibans are as bad as the Muslim ones.

[dysfunctional press]

173. ummm...okay...

btw- what do my friends have to do with any of this?

[provis99]

103. excellent point, one that should be made more often

Because either they must support killing a human life (from their point of view) sometimes, or they go full tilt, and abortion must be banned in all circumstances and the mother and doctor charged with first degree murder for killing a child. Either way, the anti-choice people are shown to be the hypocrites and moral degenerates they are.

[drmeow]

203. There is a difference between

making exceptions and sitting in judgment while failing to forgive. The Archbishop could say that he condemns the act and that it was wrong but that it is not his place to judge, it is God's place, and if they go to confession they will be forgiven. That's would not be hypocrisy.

[katandmoon]

10. Just for the record there ARE no "words of Jesus" to read. The gopspels were written long after the

supposed fact and there is zero - zip - nada - zilch historical evidence the Jesus Christ worshipped by the bishop ever even existed.

All Sobrino doing is what every other Christian does - putting his own words/beliefs in the mouth of an imaginary being while truly believing it is the other way around.

Abhorrent in the extreme. But I don't believe it does any good to quote Jesus back at him, because even in the remote possibility that Jesus did exist, nobody knows what Jesus really ever said or felt or did about anything.

[nichomachus]

143. Don't you realize

that there are religious hucksters who will take thousands of dollars from you to take you to the Holy Land -- otherwise known as The Religious Shooting Gallery -- and not only tell you what Jesus said, but will actually point to a rock and tell you that this was the exact rock he was standing on when he said this or that.

And the suckers fall for it by the thousands.

[RagAss]

192. Amen....a multi-trillion dollar fantasy !!!!

[scytherius]

11. Yeah I saw it. The Church must be destoryed. Legally of course. n/t

nt

[stopbush]

13. You act as if this kind of behavior is unexpected for the religious.

Why? It's simply their stock-in-trade. It's the reason they should be ignored if not put out of business entirely.

If the RCs are against abortion, then they should stand up against all abortions. I prefer they do that, rather than candy coat and make exceptions for their knuckle-dragging, myth-based opinions. Fuck 'em.

It doesn't matter that they didn't stand up for rape victims because their woo-woo beliefs are powerless to help anyone to begin with.

At least this story is being reported. Let's hope it's just one more nail being driven into religion's coffin.

[madrchsod]

15. they are no better than the money changers in the temple

[astonamous]

16. Holy cow! Spot on! K & R

[hfojvt]

17. you might wanna brush up on your internet searching

"In March 2003, just hours after the first American cruise missiles slammed into Baghdad, the Vatican proclaimed the nascent conflict a "defeat for reason and for the gospel." It was a war, said papal confidant Cardinal Roberto Tucci, that was "beyond all legality and all international legitimacy." Strong words coming from the clerical leaders of some 1.5 billion Roman Catholics and indicative of the rift that still dogs relations between the president and the pope."


http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/national/2008/04/16...

" (expletive deleted), where the (expletive deleted) were you and your self-righteous ilk when innocents were being tortured and slain in Iraq and Afghanistan – and all over the world?"


But hey, why let a few facts get in the way of a profanity laden screed?

[Richardo]

32. "Facts are stubborn things"

- NanceGreggs

[ConsAreLiars]

42. Uhh, Cardinal Roberto Tucci is not Catholic Archbishop José Cardoso Sobrinho

Facts do matter. Father Berrigan is also not the Pope. Pay attention.

[hfojvt]

127. is our snark a boojum?

Anything else you wanna claim I said?

This profanity laden attack spills from just one Cardinal onto the who M-Fing church, no?

[defendandprotect]

73. Nice rhetoric, but the church's anti-abortion and anti-homosexual activities

show a greater interest in those subjects --- !!!

Not to mention their well-financed campaign against the Equal Rights Amendment --

with tax-free dollars!

And the supposed rift with the Bush administration certainly produced new largess

in the area of American taxpayer dollars for the Catholic church!!

[liberalhistorian]

96. Excuse me, but it appears that you are the one with the

mixed-up facts. Cardinal Tucci is NOT the Archbishop in question here, they are two totally different people. You need to pay better attention to what you read. Unless, of course, you actually support forcing a nine-year-old incestuous rape victim to give birth, even if it could likely kill her. Nice.

[hfojvt]

124. Cardinal Tucci is one of the "self righteous ilk" part of Holy M-F Church.

Unless, of course, I hate America and want the terrorists to win. Not a cool strawman, LH.

[rhett o rick]

178. If you are trying to defend the Church you didn't do a good job. The fact that the "Vatican

proclaimed....". is pure rhetoric. The Vatican is a building. And it is so worthless to do a lot of "proclaiming". Did the Pope denounce George Bush? No. Of course it was the Catholic Church that denounced Galileo but not Hitler. Do you think for one second that Jesus would approve of the wealth and pomp and circumstance of the Pope? The reason that the Church hides their child molesting priests is because they would rather have children molested than admit that their priests aren't above common man. I stand with the OP.

[hfojvt]

217. no mention of the Inquisition or the Crusades?

Just Galileo and Hitler?

I am thinking Jesus might approve of this
http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/NetCommunity/Page.a...

"In 2007, some 1,568,964 people received basic need services from their local Catholic Charities agencies."

I made a fairly simple point. Unlike the OP's accusation, the Catholic church did speak out against the Iraq war.

[TexasObserver]

18. it's the world's largest and longest enduring criminal organization

The fact that there are many decent priests and nuns doesn't change the essential nature of this church, which has been a friend of fascism throughout its history, and is a fascist organization that still runs itself like something out of medieval times.

[LuckyLib]

104. Yup. It's a cult with a long history. Particularly as a destroyer of lives and spirits.

[merh]

20. I believe that the correct form of address would be

"your most holy esteemed archbishop-prick"

other than that, I think you have it covered

[Richardo]

21. Next week: Nance calls Judaism a "fucking joke of a religion" and Islam "the faith of losers"

Way to insult the faith of 1.1 billion people, Nance. Think your thread title could maybe apply a BROADER brush?

Most adherents to the Catholic faith are caring, nurturing human beings who are just as outraged as you are (probably more so) about the actions of this bishop and the heinous behavior of the Church hierarchy in the child abuse scandals and cover-up.

Your thread title reflects as much uninformed ignorance as Michael Savage or Glenn Beck calling for the destruction of Islam. Nice fucking post.

[islandmkl]

22. concerning nance's ability to:

"Way to insult the faith of 1.1 billion people, Nance. Think your thread title could maybe apply a BROADER brush?

Most adherents to the Catholic faith are caring, nurturing human beings who are just as outraged as you are (probably more so) about the actions of this bishop and the heinous behavior of the Church hierarchy in the child abuse scandals and cover-up."

yes, the vast majority of Catholics are probably just as you assert...

when will the sound of 1+ billion voices start being heard?...no, i mean LOUD so i can hear it....??

[Richardo]

24. Savage, Limbaugh, Hannity and Beck say the same thing about Muslims....

Bravo.

[pipi_k]

77. Even assholes are right some of the time

Hannity, Beck, Limbaugh...they're all assholes, but they're all correct (IMO) in calling for the moderate Muslims of the world to rise up and speak out against the people who are committing atrocities in the name of Islam.

Fundamentalist crazies only end up giving a bad name to the more gentle and loving parts of any religion.


So what do we have here?

Instead of defending this little girl and condemning the guy who raped her and the Archbishop who excommunicated her family, and speaking out against the parts of Catholicism that perpetrate and enable such cruelty upon innocent people, you verbally attack Nance because she called Catholicism, Inc. some naughty names.

You can tell a lot about people by their priorities.

Bravo.

[liberalhistorian]

98. Yes, you sure can tell priorities, like

in this thread that he posted:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Interesting, huh?

[defendandprotect]

79. Fundamentalist Islam in Afghanistan is large part US creation . . ..

Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.htm

Our CIA created and financed the Taliban thru Pakistan's ISI ---

"And US went into Afghanistan six months before the Russians came in ...

in order to bait the Russians into Afghanistan in hopes of giving them a

Vietnam type experience."

And here's Zbigniew Brzezinski on that particularly insane bit of strategy . . .


The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_interview_shor ...

[onlyadream]

112. That's unbelievable - how stupid are we? nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

114. Okay, I'll probably get one handed to me, but I'm going to quibble.

And please do not think it is directed personally at you. This is just one of my pet peeves as a student of comparative world religion. Islam by doctrine is a "fundamentalist" religion. If we want to be more precise we should be talking about Islamic extremism not fundamentalism. I really wish the media would understand the difference.

However, I do agree U.S. foreign policy has encouraged the growth of Islamic extremism, particularly violent Islamic extremism.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I know it doesn't amount to much in the scheme of things, it's just a quirk with me.

[NanceGreggs]

23. ...

"I write this in the knowledge that I will make not enemies, but friends, among the Catholic community – because I am talking about “Catholics” in the true sense of the word, those who adhere to the Word of Christ - who are as appalled by your words and actions as any human being with a modicum of empathy and a sense of true justice would be."

[Richardo]

30. You're kidding right? You define those that agree with you as the "true" Catholics

And all those who disagree, or perhaps agree but are offended by your choice of terms are what? Apologists? Blind? Cowardly? Complicit? Where do they fit in the NanceGregg Catechism?

[NanceGreggs]

43. Having been brought up Catholic ...

... (which I no longer am), I can tell you that there's no such thing as the NanceGreggs catechism - but there is a such thing as a religion predicated on the words and teachings of Christ - and I doubt he'd be in agreement with what's being done to this particular child - or children around the world - allegedly in "His" name.

The Catholic religion is a beautiful an wondrous thing. The "Catholic Church Inc.", on the other hand, is an abomination, IMHO.

It's the distinction between the two that often baffles many ... unfortunately.

[me b zola]

51. +1

[BlueMTexpat]

54. I was too ...

and no longer am.

And I too lament what happens between religion and the "institutionalization" of religion; it's as if the idea of God is put onto a Procrustean bed. Any concepts that don't fit a given mind-set are cut off and tossed away.
It was Eve's "fault" that Adam got tossed out of Paradise (as if he couldn't think for himself ... poor sad little man) and so all women are to be eternally punished. So what if the "woman" is a nine-year-old rape victim ... she must have "tempted" the pedophile in some way.
Excommunication from a group with a mind-set like that rises to the level of a sacrament.

[Harry Monroe]

63. As a practicing Catholic Nance, I fully agree with you

It is Catholic Church Inc., that's the problem. Not the religion. I'm a pro-choice Catholic. Personally I think abortion is an abomination, but I also respect the right of women to choose this difficult choice if it comes to it and furthermore the government has no business interfering in a personal matter such as this. I do not let a person who has taken a lifelong vow of celibacy and has no clue as to raising children tell me what difficult decisions to make concerning family planning. I use contraceptives, as I wish to limit the size of my family as my economic status dictates. No celibate is going to dictate this to me and to use the only approved church form of contraception (the rhythm method) would be to invite more abortions!! I am one of seven children; I believe my parents actually took them seriously in this matter! I know of quite a few others in my church who would agree with me.

[defendandprotect]

94. And have you no anger for the event revealed in this thread . . . ?

No anger for a church which disrespects females -- bars them from any

participation in ritual and hierarchy?

No anger for a church which continues to teach disrespect, hatred and

intolerance for homosexuals?

No anger for a church which continues to hide its records on child

abusers -- and which, rather than mourning the childhoods of those abused

and admitting its own guilt, makes it church policy to hide its guilt?

[liberalhistorian]

99. Are you telling us that you actually support

forcing this NINE year old CHILD incestuous rape victim to continue with the pregnancy and give birth, even though it could likely kill her and the psychological trauma alone would be irreparably damaging, and the excommunication of the mother for "allowing" it, while leaving alone the stepfather-rapist? Especially considering this particular Archbishop said NOTHING at all about all the priest-pedophiles in the church and the church's knowing about it all along yet just moving the priests from church to church?

[Career Prole]

154. "Apologists? Blind? Cowardly? Complicit?"

You're kidding right? You define those that agree with you as the "true" Catholics and all those who disagree, or perhaps agree but are offended by your choice of terms are what? Apologists? Blind? Cowardly? Complicit? Where do they fit in the NanceGregg Catechism?

Apologists. Blind. Cowardly. Complicit. Choose any one of the four. It will fit.
Not because of the OP's "catechism", but because of the definition of each of your given choices provided in any dictionary of the English language.
Perhaps you should choose "blind", it being the kindest choice of those you've given so it should offend you the least.
When outrages such as this occur and one hears of only the outrageous act and nothing is heard in opposition to it from the other 1.131 billion people who profess to follow the faith then we're left with the belief that those other adherents must be blind, cowardly, complicit, apologists.

[Eryemil]

38. No true Scotsman fallacy n|t

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ekwhite]

66. Just because a bunch of people are Catholics

Doesn't mean that Catholic doctrine is true. Back in 2003, a lot of people believed we should invade Iraq. How did that turn out?

Besides which, when it comes to uninformed ignorance, no one can beat the Catholic church - the church that only within the last few years issued an apology to Galileo. Or shall we talk about the Holy Office of the Inquisition, which operated into the 19th century, or Catholic collaboration with the Nazis? Or what they did to the Templars so they could get their money? Or the Borgia popes and their mistresses and murders. I have only scratched the surface.

[spoony]

71. You're right, of course, but don't expect

anyone to do anything about it. As DU's Mitch Albom, she gets a pass no matter how hysterical and scurrilous she is.

[defendandprotect]

75. Actually, I think we have to laugh at religion more, but news like this makes ....

it very hard to do so at times because teachings of organized patriarchal

religions -- especially about reproduction -- have destroyed the lives of women

everywhere -- and families.

Most adherents to the Catholic faith are caring, nurturing human beings who are just as outraged as you are (probably more so) about the actions of this bishop and the heinous behavior of the Church hierarchy in the child abuse scandals and cover-up.

However, information about the Church's sexual abuse scandals came to members thru

media exposure -- not by the church revealing this information. In fact, the church

worked night and day to buy silence on this issue. And, sadly, Catholics seem to

still be giving financial support to the church which lied to them over all these

generations, thus harming so many children. Indeed, we still don't know how many

children because the church has not revealed all of the information it has and not all

of those abused have come forward -- only a small percentage have revealed these horrors.

I think it's less than 20% of the cases are known. On the other hand, Italians say that

this has been going on since the beginning of the church -- at least since they ended

the married priesthood.

When Catholics start to walk away from a church which continues to war on

females and homosexuals -- and which so abusively treats children as in this case --

then we will be able to see their outrage!

The church is still not acknowledging the full personhood of females as it acknowledges

the full personhood of males. Still teaching hatred and intolerance for homosexuals.

Still teaching "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" ... insanities which

have led to the exploition and destruction of Nature.

These are dangerous teachings -- dangerous for our societies and our planet!

[Generic Other]

89. Good Germans were outraged too--after the fact

So what are the faithful going to do confronted with the knowledge that their priests are no better than Taliban extremists? Because those who accept this from their religious leaders and simply move on or make excuses are no different than the bishop. Evil.

[Midlodemocrat]

107. +1

Of all the things that are sent to R & T, one would think this pile of bile would be first on the list.

[Pacifist Patriot]

117. Pardon the expression, but why should religious topics be handled as sacred cows?

If a religion cannot withstand scrutiny and criticism than there is something fundamentally wrong with us as rational and compassionate human beings.

The Archbishop made a fundamentally inhumane decision based upon his understanding of scripture and doctrine. In the heirarchical polity that is the Catholic church, this Archbishop does indeed speak for millions of people. If they do not denounce his decision than they are condoning it by their silence and should be prepared for the consequence of moral outrage.

"The Church" usually refers to the ecclesiastical heirarchy rather than the laity anyway. So I see nothing wrong with Nance's indignation directed at "the church."

[urgk]

129. Neat.

"Most adherents to the Catholic faith are caring, nurturing human beings who are just as outraged as you are (probably more so) about the actions of this bishop and the heinous behavior of the Church hierarchy in the child abuse scandals and cover-up."

Where did you find that statistic? Because it's encouraging. It seems that if most Catholics are caring, nurturing humans who are outraged when the Church does something wrong, maybe it means the church has a chance to become Christ-like.

[Bunny]

136. Thanks for speaking up Richardo.

The OP is a crock of shit.

I guess by speaking out against it, we are in full suppport of forcing a nine year old girl to see this pregnancy to term. As some ignorant fuckwit suggested elsewhere.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

166. Go ahead and kneel at the altar that

sweeps child rape under the rug, defends the actions of a church leader that calls for the excommunication of a child that had an abortion because she was raped and could have died, and recalls the excommunication of a holocaust revisionist. If you can live with yourself and do that, then I feel for you and hope you seek help. If you arent a Catholic and defend this behavior then why?

[rhett o rick]

184. Wait a min. If "most adherents...are caring..." etc, then why do they put up with the

Pope and the dogma. Why do they put up with the horrible priest problem that could easily be fixed. The Church hides child molesters and nothing is done by your so called caring masses. 1.1 billion Catholics, many horribly poor but still sending money to the Pope. And the Catholic Church seems to have millions to spend on politics to keep gays from being true citizens.

[mrs_p]

25. your words are tame

compared to how this catholic feels about the church

[SidDithers]

26. You post this as if you would expect something different...nt

Sid

[crimsonblue]

27. How the fuck did anybody find out about this?

Are the no privacy laws in Brazil? Why in the fucking hell would anybody divulge this information? Has this little girl not suffered through enough circles of hell as is? Hell doesn't exist, but I hope this priest still finds a way to make it there.

[mrs_p]

33. i know, it's kind of sad

when i hope there is a hell just so horrendous people like this bishop will burn in it!

[defendandprotect]

46. Bless those who have made this known ...perhaps it will change things in Brazil . . .

Catholic Church has had a lot of sway there ---

In fact, during the AIDS epidemic being spread going back some 15-20 years ago,

doctors were quite puzzled that so many married women were come down with the virus.

Eventually, they came to conclude that approximately 30% of the married males in

Brazil "love other men." Now even the doctors didn't know or understand this and

that's how dumb religion can make you -- and how organized patriarchal religion succeeds

in spreading ignorance which harms women and families.

[Bluenorthwest]

58. That situation is not Brazil's alone

In the US, religious influenced communities also suffer large HIV infection rates in the 'married' women...and just as in Brazil, it has been thus for decades. Doctors here are not puzzeled, that has been sussed long ago. It is ministers and religious leaders who insist upon the lies and the death of innocents, they flat out insist upon it. Anything to avoid the truth, and the freedom the truth brings.

[defendandprotect]

72. Yes . . .

[ImOnlySleeping]

84. doctors

70% of the doctors had no idea

[defendandprotect]

95. That took . . .

me two or three seconds to get . . .!!!

[ekwhite]

67. Maybe he can go to a Buddhist hell then

You can get reincarnated out of them.

[donquijoterocket]

108. laws

What makes you think that a belief system based on retribution is going to find its leadership bound by secular, man-given law? Even if Brazil had laws on the books protecting the identity of this unfortunate little girl- I believe I read somewhere she only weighed 80 pounds which is one of the reasons why carrying this pregnancy to term would probably kill her.This whole thing beyond the church's implicit notion of infallibility and ultimate authority demonstrates once more the fallacy of such binary either or thinking as characterizes most fundamentalist thinking.Certainly, if nothing else, it points out the essential validity of Gandhi's observation that he liked our Christ, but was not so sure about our christians.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[islandmkl]

35. i was going to reply to a reply with various additional replies...

so i am merely asking: Where is the collective moral voice of Catholicism BEING HEARD??

one cannot say that most Catholics are disturbed, disenchanted, etc. yet there is no evidence of a 'reformation' even in protest...

which, as some like to point out, using the opinion of those who are generally despised (at best) among these parts, is being said about Islamics, etc....

i say this: Fuck the Enemy target bullshit....where do any of these 'religions' have the moral conscience being expressed by the masses??

maybe Nance actually didn't use as broad a brush as you could have....


but, hey...i've been drinking rum since around 11 a.m. AST, so what the hell do i know?

[Lugnut]

37. Brava! n/t

[Mnemosyne]

39. Beautiful Nance, just beautiful! Thank you! KnR n/t

[Divine Discontent]

44. what a douchebag - he doesn't sound too Christ-like...

The Catholic Church is begging for those who believe in Christ as Savior to leave the church and find something like Metropolitan Community Church or ANYTHING that promotes loving people equally - something this guy isn't doing.

He is a jerk as bad as they come - WHERE was he and his fellow church heads at when they should have excommunicated the molesting priests out of the building and into the hands of the law??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


That's all I have to say - because that says it all!

God bless you, Nance, you know I love you as long as the day is long - you always write what's in your heart and I commend that action.

(themartyred) divine discontent

[Grey]

45. The term Misogynist comes to mind,

Where are the voices raised in protest?

Where are the faithful Catholics? Glad to hear them on TV and in the papers protesting this sort of behavior. Ya, right.

I was impressed when the Pope wrote a letter of protest over the killing and maiming of millions in the middle east and
gave * a stern look and a good 'finger-shaking, that really worked.

good for you Nance, for telling the truth. And to all you 'church going christians' Good Job, bringing kindness and support
to a brutalized little girl. your sympathy is under-whelming.

I would like to re-state the obvious, It's a LITTLE GIRL that's important here, not the god-damned church or some dogma
written 2000 years ago. You people treat her like a postscript or minor detail. Where's the humanity?

rant off....

[bulloney]

83. I don't recall the Catholic Church excommunicating Congressmen who voted in support of the Iraq war.

But when John Kerry announced his pro-choice position during the 2004 presidential campaign, the church was all adamant about anyone's position on abortion, saying they're not worthy of receiving communion if they're pro-choice and some church leaders were going so far as to say you should not be in the Catholic church if you support pro-choice candidates.

But, did they take their outrage this far regarding the Iraq war?

And what is this archbishop's position regarding the girl's stepfather who reportedly admits he had been raping her since she was six? Where's his outrage on that? To me, that's sicker than terminating this pregnancy.

[defendandprotect]

47. What kind of perspective could a 9 year old girl have on this ....let me add . . .

[Missy Vixen]

49. Nance, you rawk the free world

I hope there's a toasty corner of Hell all set for that SOB archbishop.

In the meantime, this was the rant of all rants, and I can only hope that little girl's mother went after the rapist stepfather with a rusty butter knife.

to that little girl, whomever and wherever she is tonight, and let's hear it for a compassionate doctor that did not force a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD to go through a high-risk pregnancy as the result of a rape.

[Imagevision]

50. I'm sure Bill Maher got a chuckle out of this...

[dana_b]

126. oh man -

I'm gonna watch and see if he mentions it. you know he wouldn't be surprised, but he'd have to point it out.

[spoony]

181. If that blowhard got a "chuckle" out of a rape story

then he's even more fucked up than previously evidenced.

[puebloknot]

52. Calm down, Girl!!! Read "Sword of Constantine." Like the scorpion ...

... riding on the back of the frog, it's in the nature of these pricks to do what they do. They're only doing what they've always done -- being the representatives of God on Earth!

[Iggo]

53. Get him, Nance.

[malaise]

55. Someone needs to tell the catholic church that human laws

have been around for several centuries. They should take their fucking divine laws and shove them up any part of the perverts they have been protecting for centuries.

[SpiralHawk]

56. The Catholic Church acts again like a Republicon Homelander Pharisee

Shameful. Just pathetically, cruelly shameful.

[rug]

57. This story has nothing to do with pedophilia. Did you forget to mention the Crusades?

[moggie]

80. 9-year-old, dude

If you want to defend the church (why?), you'll need to try harder.

[rug]

188. Her stepfather, dude, not the archbishop.

If you want an intelligent critique of the church, try harder.

[Pacifist Patriot]

118. Since when is a 9 year old not a child?

[rug]

190. Since when did her stepather become a priest?

[NickB79]

199. Since when is pedophilia something only a priest can engage in?

[rug]

206. In this story, it was the stepfather. Nary a pedophile priest in sight.

But that would only make this "rant" less pavlovian.

[FloridaJudy]

137. Ummm...a nine year old girl got pregnant

If that isn't the result of pedophilia I'd like a peek at your dictionary!

[rug]

191. See above,

[NickB79]

142. Epic comprehension fail. nt.

[rug]

193. Next time try a verb if you refer to comprehension.

It's clear you completely failed to comprehend the gratuitous and irrelevant invocation of pedophile priests in the OP.

[NickB79]

200. You seriously have never heard the phrase "epic fail" or it's variations used online???

[rug]

205. I did when I picked up my kids at Junior High.

They showed me some slamming smileys too.

I bet you have a tremendous lolcat collection too.

[The Wizard]

59. Religious fundamentalism

of all stripes is a curse on humanity. Religious fanaticism has been the source of more human suffering than it's worth.
Destruction in the name of a mythical sky hero is still destruction. This is not to say there's no place for faith, but dogmatic adherence to questionable edicts that serve only fanatical doctrine will, in the end, bring down the structures to which the fanatics cling in hope of spending eternity with their particular imaginary sky hero.
By the way, a big fuck you to Archbishop Cardoso Sobrinho.

[JerseygirlCT]

60. Thanks, Nance

I needed that.

I have been angry enough to feel sick for days about this. I lack the words still to adequately express that anger. This hatred of women and children is a horrible cancer growing wild in the heart of the RCC. And until these nasty power hungry old men learn a strong lesson in compassion and mercy and justice, it will continue to eat its way out - until the RCC is a mere historical oddity.

[ejbr]

61. The asshole cares more about his status in the church,

than his status as a human being.

[nuxvomica]

62. "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come to me..."

is what Christ said, not "Make little children suffer." I think the archbishop is treading on shaky theological grounds to begin with. The Church has long held that the worst sins are those committed against the innocent. Had the doctor allowed the pregnancy to continue, he would have subjected an innocent girl to much pain and probably death. Confronted with this moral dilemma, the archbishop selfishly chose to frame the issue in terms of his "cause" and thereby increase his own celebrity. That is beyond reprehensible.

OT: Your use of the term "archbishoprick" reminded me that Melville used that spelling in Moby Dick to describe the "office" of the blubber mincer, who was protected from spattering hot oil by a "cassock" made from the whale's dried foreskin. But the "k" is removed in most editions.

[LiberalEsto]

64. Amen! But maybe excommunication is not so bad

That poor child and her mother are better off without the fucking Church. Maybe they will find a loving, supportive religious institution to join. I hope they do.

Excommunication reminds me of what my mother used to say about getting suspended from school back in the 1960s. It was kind of like a reward. You got to stay home and party.

That asshole archbishop has a lot of nerve. Who asked him to stick his nose in this anyway?

If the Catholic church had any real morals, it would kick out that stepfather instead, and see to it that he was brought to trial. And it would provide food, money and lots of love and kindness to help a horribly traumatized child recover.

[MasonJar]

65. I'd be willing to bet that Jesus has not excommunicated them, but he

probably has the archbishop.

[Strathos]

68. Anyone making apologies for the church is just as guilty

We're steps away from the taliban taking over America, the American Taliban, the fucking christians who think they can dictate to everyone else how to live.

The priest is a man, not a holy man, but a man appointed by other men who think they speak for God, they all lie to themselves to make themselves feel important.

Fuck the fuckin' church and those self entitled assholes who think they are above it all.

Grow the fuck up, there might not be a god, there might not be heaven, this might just be it and we should take care of our country, our Earth, our people above anything else and we can't do that by thinking one person can be more important than the many.

[bulloney]

88. I have a fundamental problem with the power structure of the Catholic Church.

Its rules and policies are largely centuries-old, passed and maintained by a closed society of single celibate men who supposedly have this authority to dictate to us what is proper behavior for married life and parenthood. How do they really know about marriage and parenthood when they've never experienced it?

[tangent90]

69. excommunication is probably the best thing that could happen to the kid.

...

[Cronus Protagonist]

159. DING! DING! DING!

As far as I can tell, there's a silver lining in every cloud, and while I would never wish a rape to a child, she may just have benefited from the excommunication. That act may have saved the rest of her life from self-torment and guilt. In any case, she's clearly better off being excommunicated than staying within the control of such a malevolent organization.

[bitchkitty]

74. Just guessing here...are you a tad upset? n/t

[BuyingThyme]

76. Locking...

All worthwhile threads are being moved the the September 11 Forum.

[CoffeeCat]

78. The Church hierarchy is PRO PEDOPHILE!!

These pieces of shit are pro pedophile and pro child rape.

They prove it time and time again.

They knew children were being molested. They did nothing. In fact, they intentionally
and knowingly allowed child-rapist priests to continue with their child raping--as they
kept their crimes quiet and put them in front of new groups of potential victims.

Knowingly....willingly...with no remorse.

Now this abortion case. They have NO EMPATHY for the rape victim. NONE. They simply look
past her and see only their "rules". Pedophilia means nothing to them. The crime is inconsequential.

And yes, as Nance points out---So much rage and judgment for this nine-year old rape victim and her mother, but where
were these same voices for the victims of sexual abuse--created by their own priests?

The Catholic Church is one of the most evil, vile institutions to have ever existed.

[BuyingThyme]

81. You are correct.

[Christa]

82. As insane as this is

as sad and heartbreaking, let's hope some good will come of it: meaning the death of religion, one person at a time needs to see how crazy it is.

[krabigirl]

86. Yes, they are sick f*cks. But the mother should be happy to be excommunicated - now she is free,

[Maestro]

87. Amazing!

and disgusting. Good rant as usual.

[Ilsa]

91. Sign me up for whatever groups

fight the goddamn sons of bitches who think like this priest and condone this way of thinking about the child, the mother, the SOB stepfather, etc. I haven't been impressed with the internal opposition to that faith's leadership.

[olegramps]

92. This situation demonstrates for me the problem with absolutes:

The Catholic Church is not alone in this regard. Many self appointed dictators of morality back themselves into a corner that allows no exceptions. This is a prime example of such a case.

The child is the victim of exactly what Jesus warned against. "It would be better for him if a large millstone were tied around his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin." Luke 17.2

The child's protection must take precedence over any other consideration. An evil has been done to her absolutely with out her volition and she should not be made to suffer the consequences. It is a tragic situation that demands that absolutes must be tempered with compassion. It is a choice that must be in the hands of the parents, in this case her mother in consultation with medical experts. The mother in this case has the absolute God given authority and duty to protect her daughter. The Archbishop, speaking for the church, doesn't have this authority over the child. This is a primary principle. He is only attempting to force the church's position on the parent. The decision rests solely in the hands of the mother. If she allowed this pregnancy to proceed resulting her child's death she would be whole negligent of her primary duty to protect the child.

Unfortunately religious laws that deal in absolutes are only possible in a perfect world. You wouldn't have to practice responsible birth control because there would be no detrimental consequences. Everyone could just pick the fruit from the tree at will. That is not the reality of the situation. The issues are never as simple as black and white as blind religious leaders would suppose and who don't suffer the consequences of their sanctimonious absolutes. As Jesus observed, they place heavy burdens on other's backs and do nothing to relieve the burden.

[defendandprotect]

97. Ah, but the "absolute" that all life begins at conception is license to ignore this child's

own life --- !!!!

A fetus has more rights than this nine year old -- !!!

[JerseygirlCT]

138. And, actually, there's nothing absolute about when exactly

conception occurs in their minds.

It's a moving target, too.

I think the only exact thing about them is their belief that they should be allowed to control another's private medical decisions.

[NikolaC]

100. Nance, thank you.

When I first read this story I became ill. It hits too close to home for me and I tried not to comment on it. My heart breaks for that child and the hate that I feel for her step-father, the priest's comments and actions and what happened is overwhelming. Thanks for expressing, as usual, in a clear and firm way what so many of us feel about this story.

[LongTomH]

105. Great post Nance; but........................

You would have to pick a day when we have thunderstorms in the forecast to post this!

Seriously, I can imagine the scene when this character applies for admission at the Pearly Gates.

St. Peter: "Could you wait here, please, Archbishop, Jesus left a note he wants to greet you personally."

Archbishop Sobrinho: "Jesus himself? I am so honored........."

St. Peter: "Yeah, he says he wants to slap the shit out of you in person!"

[Zodiak]

106. If I was excommunicated from a religion that covers for pedophile priests

...and has an ex-Nazi pope, I'd consider it a badge of honor.

[Dangerously Amused]

109. Well stated. Thank you. K&R.

[SoxFan]

113. Broad-brush smears are now acceptable?

You take the actions of a single bishop and use it as an excuse to attack the entire Catholic faith.

You could have made your attack on the bishop's idiotic actions; I would agree with you on that assessment. Instead, you took it as an opportunity to wallow in DU's favorite form of bigotry. You decided to go for cheap applause from the pseudo-progressives who view anti-Catholicism as an acceptable form of discrimination.

Welcome to the ignore list, bigot.

[NanceGreggs]

119. I am not attacking the Catholic "faith" ...

... I am attacking the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, they have become two separate things, one having very little to do with the other.

[Pacifist Patriot]

123. It happens in many (all?) denominations.

"The faith" and "the church" usually mean two quite different things. I like to think "the faith" is what inspires us to transcend ourselves. Unfortunately, "the church" tends to descend us into politics and power struggle. One wonders if ever the twain shall meet.

[urgk]

121. Maybe instead of ignoring Nance, you should convince her you're right.

I'm not sure how it's any more helpful to slam the door shut on conversations with people you don't agree with than it is to make sweeping generalizations.

If she's wrong about the church, tell her.

[Lyric]

133. Was this a rogue bishop, then?

Was he outside of the boundaries of the doctrine that the Vatican sets down for its adherents? Are his views dramatically different than the official Catholic dogma? You act as if this is a similar comparison to Islam, where the vast majority of adherents are peaceful and respectful, and only a small minority are aggressive and domineering. But the opposite is true with Catholicism, isn't it? What happened in Brazil is NOT a tiny minority view, but the majority one. You and your fellow liberal American Catholics are the tiny minority, the exception to the global rule. This bishop was espousing the same position that the Pope has taken on the abortion issue, right?

Isn't disagreeing with the Pope a Great Big No-No in Catholicism? I mean, one of the core tenets of the Catholic dogma is that the Pope is supposedly "infallible"--how then can someone disagree with what he's said about abortion and still BE Catholic?



I don't get it.

[JerseygirlCT]

139. That's unfair

There is a real problem in the governance and hierarchy of the RCC. A governance that Catholics willingly associate themselves with all too often. What one hateful bishop decides is "truth" in Brazil only reflects what a larger group of equally hate-filled bishops and cardinals call truth in Rome.

I was raised in the RCC. My family is still R. Catholic. I know there are many, many truly good people in the church. I left for the Episcopal church because I could no longer stand the RCC's misogyny. And I certainly couldn't raise children to think it was acceptable in any situation at any time.

This man has decided that church law dictates ostracizing a 9 year old rape victim and the one parent who cares for her because they choose the medical treatment that would prevent further trauma and probably her death, along with that of the fetuses. He makes no such interpretation in the case of her abuser. It is another example, as I've said elsewhere in this thread, of a very real cancer growing in the heart of the RCC. And until and unless it is exterminated, examples such as this one will continue to come to the fore. And will be greeted with the same anger.

That's not about Catholicism, it's about choices.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

167. Hey just for the record I AM attacking the Catholic faith

And anyone who is an apologist for child rape, holocaust revisionists, and out and out liars. And please if you have a problem with that ignore me too, I would prefer it.

[AlphaCentauri]

201. Well just don't use this incident to spread the hate over catholics

Many right wing conservatives hate catholics just because part of the catholic church dedicate them selves to serve the poor around the world and for those protestant conservatives that is socialism.

Also there are groups inside the catholic church that are struggling to change and brig the old guard up to date but it takes time to get thing changed, for example how long freedom and democracy in the US had to wait for a black president to be elected? same goes to the catholic church, instead of cursing all catholics why not support those who want change?

[spiritual_gunfighter]

213. Hasn't the Catholic church existed for over a thousand years?

Wouldn't it be past time for them to get it together and be a positive force in the world? They have the ability to do so if they wish. But the hierarchy doesn't want or care about that happening. Unfortunately this isn't an isolated incident this is an ongoing culture of corruption and moral bankruptcy that stretches to the Catholic churches inception. I probably don't have to rehash the history of the church and how it came to be in the first place, but when you construct a building on sand eventually the structure will fall. This is the case with the Catholic church and more people are seeing this everyday. As you can see from the comments on the threads dealing with this subject there arent too many defenders of the Catholic church. As their shouldnt be, and I will stick to my statement, if you sit in the pews on Saturday and Sunday and tithe you are complicant in this sort of thing taking place and continuing to happen.

[AlphaCentauri]

225. I guest history show us the corruption of some catholics over the centuries

if we start to condemn all actions of the church just imagine how europe or event the US would look today with muslim rulers from the middle ages, could some one in the US be saying one nation under God? or what about all those so called Christians who use the catholic bible to manipulate their congregations?

[Cleita]

115. The good news is that the Church couldn't run interference and stop

the termination of the pregnancy, like the churches here in the USA are attempting to do. Look at what the Christian, not only Catholic, churches have done here and have gotten the law on their side for, for example the Terri Schiavo fiasco, and the banning of gay marriage in California. They have managed also to get laws passed on a state level making it harder to get contraception and abortions with the goal of overturning Roe vs. Wade. At least it seems in Brazil that they have real separation of church and state.

[urgk]

120. I'm stunned that anyone can reconcile Christianity with the Church™.

Imagine this - Christ walking with the Pope, who happens to have some piece of papal pomp -- gilded, bejeweled and owned by the church. They walk by an orphanage in any third world country. There are kids starving, in need of medicine, poorly educated, etc. The Pope happens to see the look on Christ's face. What does he have to say for himself and the church? "Yeah, but we are helping some other people somewhere else"? I mean, when did Christ say that there was a limit on giving? When did he say that it was okay to have multi-millions in art when the least among us don't have their basic human needs met?

[NanceGreggs]

122. Well said ... n/t

[omega minimo]

198. How bout reconciling

Congress with Democracy. Take a stroll with Madame "Let Them Eat Cake" Pelosi to the table impeachment was off and check out all the trappings of DC pomp and circumstance. Might be a couple mofos there, too.

[MyOwnPeace]

125. Well Nance,

looks like your being late for church tomorrow will have anything to do with daylight savings time........

[NanceGreggs]

128. Welcome to the DU conversation, MyOwnPeace ...

No "church" for this one-time Catholic - I walked away from the church when I was 17, and converted to Judaism sixteen years ago.

[anitar1]

130. K@R

[WildEyedLiberal]

134. Where was your "Holy Motherfucker Islam" thread when that Somali rape victim was stoned to death?

A 13 year old child who had been gang raped was STONED TO DEATH in Somalia at the local authorities' orders in accordance with Sharia law. Where was your righteous NanceGreggs outrage then? If Archbishop Sobrinho now speaks for the entire "holy Motherfucker Church" in his callousness and perversion, then do not the monsters who STONED A CHILD GANG RAPE VICTIM TO DEATH also speak for the entirety of Islam? Where was your blanket condemnation of the entire religion of Islam?

Oh, I forgot, fanning the flames of Islamophobia based on the actions of extremists is generally considered bigoted at DU, unlike the Orange Order Chick Tract "down with popery" shit that is routinely bandied about here by "progressives" eager to engage in the one prejudice they are still socially permitted to endorse. I'm also utterly confused by your reference to the Iraq war, which the "Holy Motherfucker Church" has always condemned. Is the Church now responsible for everything bad that happens in the world because it makes you feel good to say so?

And please stop insulting everyone's intelligence by claiming that you didn't intend to insult "real" Catholics. Your sneering "disclaimer" in your first paragraph utterly belies that load of swill. Don't worry, reading *other* people's bigotry doesn't compel *me* to perform an Act of Contrition. You know that if your rant had actually just been about this piece of shit archbishop, it wouldn't have gotten as much attention as a balls-out salvo against the entire Catholic religion. So enjoy your little amen chorus of DU dittoheads cheering you on with their sycophantic replies and 100+ recommendations. Maybe I will mosey on over to another site on the internetz - one that doesn't countenance bigotry or broad-brush ugliness against any group of people.

[Bunny]

140. +1

[moggie]

147. No, please don't go

I guess you're a Catholic. You're disgusted at the cruelty and misogyny of the church in this case, and annoyed at what you see as broad-brush attacks against all Catholics in response to it, since you know that large numbers of ordinary Catholics are angry at this "piece of shit archbishop". That's understandable. But rather than abandoning DU, I suggest it would be better for you and other liberal Catholics to stay, and let DU know what you're doing to tell the church hierarchy that they're wrong, and keeping us informed about their responses. Maybe post a copy of the letter you've written to your bishop, photos of your protest outside the local church - that sort of thing.

[omega minimo]

196. That sounds so reasonable

Clearly the poster is upset with the presentation and the topic. The eye gouging thread title and !!!221!311!##176&$76!!@%%55 FUCK FUCK MUTHAFUCK presentation is inflammatory.

Your reply would be relevant in an actual discussion, wouldn't it?

[AlphaCentauri]

209. it would be relevant if it would include ..

muslims protesting against other muslims violent actions
or evangelicals protesting against their greedy churches
or protestants criticizing their own faith and churches

but just to condemn catholics, won't help

[omega minimo]

215. aye

[bridgit]

150. Ah! But then DU would gnash their teeth & tear their garments while casting asparagus...

onto the Lib/Pro credentials of others as there are none more holy than we

[spiritual_gunfighter]

162. Who doesnt think that rape of any kind isnt disgusting on DU?

Are you serious that you think the OP defends the rape of a 13 year old in Somalia just because they happen to be Muslim? I just wonder how anyone can sit in the pews of a church that has tried to sweep child molestation under the rug and has this type of filth calling for the excommunication of someone that gets an abortion after they were raped. If you can live with yourself and worship at the altar of this kind of hatred so be it. I know I couldn't and I would never put up some false equivalency argument when your worship is a proxy defense of that sort of behavior.

[Lavender Brown]

227. "your worship is a proxy defense of that sort of behavior"

What the fuck? I can't believe the garbage I'm seeing here these days.

[urgk]

177. Where is it written?

That a person, in order to be outraged about instance A., must have also been outraged about somewhat related instance B.?

If you could show that Nance openly defended that instance of Sharia law you'd have a point.

[spoony]

183. Because that wouldn't get her rec's

Which is the manna by which she sustains life, apparently. DU dittoheads indeed.

[Mad_Dem_X]

135. Amen. AMEN!

Perfectly said, Nance.

[valerief]

141. That's why the Roman Catholic Church clergy likes raping little boys instead of girls. nt

[Deep13]

144. Catholics, this is what you are supporting with your tithes.

It is often easy to separate the abuses of a religion from individual members, but not this time. It's easy to sit in ones suburban home and be a cafeteria Catholic in this secular country without having to suffering from the policies you are actively supporting. It is even easier to see that this is callous support causes cruelty elsewhere and undermines our rights here. And please don't act like this is the exception to the rule. Who knows how many centuries the RC Church has covered for child-rapist priests before they were finally exposed? They want us to have NO RIGHTS. And in places where the RC church still has an ecclesiastical monopoly, people don't. Did you know in El Salvador, aborting an ectopic pregnancy is a felony offense? That's a pregnancy with absolutely no chance of coming to term that presents an immediate danger to the woman's health. If you give money to the RC church, you support a centuries-long concerted effort to make people suffer for no reason at all.

The RC church MUST take these nonsensical and cruel measures because if they lose control over matters of life and death, then they will quickly cease to exist. It is only by insinuating themselves at the beginning of life, at its end and at as many intermediate steps as possible that they can maintain their control over public thought. Right now, education, initiation and rites of passage and marriage are largely secularized. All they have left is controlling how it starts and presiding over how it ends.

[AlphaCentauri]

214. I'm going straight to hell, also my taxes are supporting murders around the globe

so my taxes are used to kill Iraqis and leftist in other countries, I'm a fucking sinner.

[Donkeykick]

145. I have a gut instinct...

that informs me that in the near future Archbishop José Cardoso Sobrinho is going to do the right thing and resign for health reasons and be replaced by a competent individual.

This story sort of reminds me of an Archbishop here in the USA that said any Catholic that voted for Obama would not receive true communion until they confessed their sins over the act; that malarkey started to settle down before it even started. I wonder why?

[truedelphi]

151. Nancy, the Church's hypocrisy is absolute, astonishing and eternal.

When Sinead tore up the picture of the Pope many of us understood why she did that. The church and the State are one and the same in Ireland. Sad to say.

[dgibby]

152. I think the Pope should weigh in on this one.

Does he support or condemn the Archbishop? I'd find that fascinating.

[muriel_volestrangler]

223. via #204 - he (or 'the Vatican', anyway) supports the archbishop

Vatican backs abortion row bishop

[TBF]

153. K&R nt

[bridgit]

155. yeah fuck that punk-ass mother fucker

[Dystopian]

156. KandR

This is why I'm a recovering catholic.
Thank you for this piece.



peace~

[Lerkfish]

157. I have always held that "pro-lifers" are anti-women

However I would point out that even though I'm not a catholic and am not defending that church, what we have here are particular people in the church structure of administration that are being dickwads. (and a lot have been in the past) -- but a christian "church" is a conceptual metaphor for everyone who belongs to the congregation as well as , if not more so, than the building or the administration hierarchy.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

158. I am pretty sure the Roman Catholic's defend rape in all cases

so this is no surprise to me. But great post anyway.

[ooglymoogly]

160. Excommunication from what? Some run down pile of crap who's hypocrisy and impossible and

Ridiculous claims to be arbiters of heaven's gate; The house of cards their fortunes are built upon; Praying on the innocent and gullible.

Who wants to be in a heaven presided over by these shameless lunatics?

The 9 year old girl and her mother et al are lucky to be excommunicated from this evil. It may force them to take a second look at what they have been selling their souls for. Gee excommunicated from hell; What a bummer. They are lucky.

Time for an educated society to thumb our collective noses at this damaging and deadly culture of troglodyte's who's only aim is to drag us back into the insanity of the dark ages where they cracked the whip over a hell on earth; A snake pit of glutinous depravity, unchallenged by truth and the laws of reality. Think of Jesus and his teachings and you will realize this shameless claptrap is the exact opposite of what Jesus was meant to be. Golly the opposite of Jesus has to be the devil....ya think

Yours,
Hieronymus Bosh

[mmonk]

161. Unconscionable position by any in the Church, particularly with title.

I say so having been brought up in the Holy Mother Fucker Church and where my family currently attends. It of course is an indefensible position and I have no qualms with you calling the Church that except condemnation by association.

[Pisces]

163. Can I hear an Amen!! Preaching to the choir !!! An ex- Catholic myslef

[RiverStone]

164. Imagine no religion...

Said John Lennon.

[Arugula Latte]

207. I do. Every day...

*sigh* What a far better world it would be if people would reject organized superstition.

[Why Syzygy]

165. The outrage over the actions of a false religion is a little bit amusing.

What do people expect from the RCC? Holiness?

[RagAss]

194. Yup...kind of like going off on Mother Goose !!!

[sce56]

168. Having been an gulp hard to admit Altar boy in my early life and having the curch

and it's teachings thrust on me at an early age I can say I feel that all of this church and religion is nothing but BUNK!
Religion is used to control the masses the Mayans used it to explain the unexplainable and how many poor souls went to their death to appease Chack the god of rain when the rains were not good enough to water the crops! I heard of a group of anthropoligist in the 60's found a group of islanders in the south pacific never visited by modern man before and found that they worshiped the Bird God that would visit them from the sky. After much coaxing and making good friendship they were taken to the holiest of holy sites on the island where their god came down to visit them. They found a B-25 that had been shot down by Japanese fighters in WWII! How could they know this plane was made by man! Religion is just a bunch of as I like to say Mamadas, old wives tales and superstitions passed on from generation to generation. Watch Religolous with Bill Maher, Rhymes with ridiculous, he does a fair job of poking holes in religious dogma!

[Taverner]

172. Fuck God. Fuck the Church. Fuck Religion. She, and all of us, are better off without God

We don't need God

We don't need the church

So fuck them

[spoony]

185. Nice.

You stay classy.

[Fumesucker]

216. Perhaps the Archbishop could take your advice..

Staying classy, I mean.

[butterfly77]

176. Thank you!

[rhett o rick]

180. I have your back Nance and appreciate your restraint. nm

[AntiFascist]

187. and yet they can get away with abusing little boys...

that's what you get with a product of the Hitler Youth in charge.

[flyarm]

195. Thank you Nance..this from the church of MKULTRA and abuse of children..,

a church I was raised in and left as an adult.
And I was so pleased , my son was recently married and he refused to be married by a Catholic priest.

Tahnk you Nance..I share your anger.

If we do not protect our children..who will?? surely not the catholic church!

fly

[Autonomy]

197. Once again, NanceGreggs

Your rants serve to divide us. Nice job. :p

I agree that the bishop's reaction is abhorrent, but your post is worded to get the most attention by creating controversy. I ask you, please, reconsider your appoach to posting here on this forum.

[spoony]

202. "worded to get the most attention"

And that is precisely why your good advice will not be heeded.

[pipi_k]

221. yeah, because god knows...

A nine year old Brazilian girl who is raped and bearing babies, her family threatened with excommunication for doing the right thing....that doesn't deserve any attention.

It's probably better in the long run to just sweep that sort of thing under the rug and ignore it.

It's not like she's a cute little Missing Blue-eyed Blonde Haired Girl Living In The US or anything.

[pipi_k]

212. Once again..

as I pointed out to someone else above, the issue shouldn't be about HOW someone posts their opinions.

I would think that adults would be more outraged over the fact that shit like this happens to nine year old girls and that the Catholic church punishes the victims than about how someone chooses to present a rant.

But whatever.

If people can't look beyond the words of a rant to the evil disgusting things perpetrated upon human beings in the name of religion...any religion....then that's that and there's little hope that anything will change.



PS...

fuck the weaselly little prick of an Archbishop.

Fuck Catholicism. Fuck religion.

And fuck the "Pope" and the Vatican, who are now, I hear, defending the Archbishop's actions.

The way they're going with excommunications and declining enrollment in the Seminaries, I sincerely hope they fuckup themselves right out of existence.

It's already happening, in my area, at least. More than a few Catholic churches have had to close and merge with other churches because the memberships have declined.

I'm glad to see it, quite frankly.

[AlphaCentauri]

219. membership have declined and many catholics are ending in sects run by republican pigs

god luck with that change

[spiritual_gunfighter]

218. You think her rants serve to divide us?

How do you feel about a church that instills fear in its patrons that plays divide and conqueror with every group that doesnt adhere to its narrow worldview? How do you feel about a church that sweeps child molestation under the rug and awards the perps by moving them to other parishes? How do you feel about recinding the excommunication of a holocaust denier? How do you feel about a church that defended the actions of Adolph Hitler and the Nazis? And you say that Nance's post served to divide us? Get a fucking grip!

[indepat]

210. Nance, for once you might try taking off the kid gloves and really telling us like it is

with no holds barred.

[southerncrone]

222. I left the Catholic Church at the ripe age of 14 because of this kind of ridiculous

interpretation of an already narrow-minded dogma. Being a female, I knew I was doomed to the decisions of "men". I have NEVER looked back.

The worship of the Virgin Mary as the Madonna is simply the cover for crimes being perpetrated against women & children.

I feel thankful that I was never preyed (prayed) upon.

[pinto]

228. Locking.

On moderator review, we've decided to lock this thread. While we work to differentiate criticism of any religious hierarchy from general attacks on adherents, discussion inevitably crosses what is an unclear line for many of us.

Thanks, all, for your consideration.