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Empire’s Law – The Law that the Bush Administration Foisted on the World

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:12 PM
Original message
Empire’s Law – The Law that the Bush Administration Foisted on the World
“The wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so malignant, and so devastating, that civilization cannot tolerate their being ignored, because it cannot survive their being repeated…

This inquest represents the practical effort… to utilize international law to meet the greatest menace of our times – aggressive war. The common sense of mankind demands that law shall not stop with the punishment of petty crimes by little people. It must also reach men who possess themselves of great power and make deliberate and concerted use of it to set in motion evils which leave no home in the world untouched. It is a cause of that magnitude that the United Nations will lay before Your Honors…

Merely as individuals their fate is of little consequence to the world. What makes this inquest significant is that these prisoners represent sinister influences that will lurk in the world long after their bodies have returned to dust. We will show them to be living symbols of racial hatreds, of terrorism and violence, and of the arrogance and cruelty of power. They are symbols of fierce nationalisms and of militarism, of intrigue and war-making… Civilization can afford no compromise with the social forces which would gain renewed strength if we deal ambiguously or indecisively with the men in whom those forces now precariously survive…”


The above quotes are excerpts from the introductory remarks of Justice Robert H. Jackson, Chief Prosecutor for the United States at the Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal at Nuremburg, November 21, 1945.

The judges of the Tribunal agreed with Justice Jackson. When the trial ended almost a year later, they sentenced 12 defendants to death, 7 to prison sentences ranging from 10 years to life, and acquitted 3. Among the 12 who were sentenced to death, 7 were convicted of the crime of “aggressive war”. That was considered the most serious of the crimes, about which the Tribunal said on October 1, 1946:

The charges in the indictment that the defendants planned and waged aggressive war are charges of the utmost gravity. War is essentially an evil thing. Its consequences are not confined to the belligerent states alone, but affect the whole world. To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime, differing only from other crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.

I begin this post with this brief review of the Nuremburg Tribunal because at the time it was considered by many to be a watershed moment in creating a system of international law that would hold war criminals accountable for the deaths of millions and therefore help to prevent future recurrences. But now, as I explain, we are on the brink of losing our international system of law if the United States and the world allow the most powerful nation in the world to get away with committing war crimes with impunity.


The beginnings of international law

It took two World Wars, a massive genocide perpetrated by Hitler’s Nazi Germany, and two great leaders, Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Winston Churchill, to create the conditions for proceeding to establish a world order that would build upon the concept of human dignity, worth and rights proclaimed in the U.S. Declaration of Independence.

With the growing power of Nazi Germany, its genocidal mania, and aggressive war beginning in 1938 with its occupation of Czechoslovakia, the world faced perhaps its greatest threat ever. In that setting, the leaders of the only two democracies that posed significant barriers to Hitler’s lust for unlimited power met in August of 1941 to discuss how to meet the great threat facing them and the world.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Winston Churchill realized the importance of persuading the populations of their countries and other countries to enthusiastically endorse and support the effort to prevent Nazi tyranny from taking over the world. To those ends they realized that tough talk and threats were not sufficient or even desirable. Rather, they recognized the need to lay out a vision before the world that would clearly show the differences between them and their Fascist enemies. Thus, the Atlantic Charter of August 14, 1941.

Following the final destruction of the Nazi tyranny the victorious nations of the world, led by the United States, wasted little time in beginning to make the principles proclaimed in the Atlantic Charter into reality. The creation of the United Nations was the beginning of that attempt.

The preamble to the Charter of the United Nations, which appears in some ways to be a direct extension and expansion of the beginning portion of the U.S. Declaration of Independence, enunciated the following principles:

To save succeeding generations from the scourge of war…

To reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women…

To establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and

To promote social progress and better standards of life…


Empire’s law

The polar opposite of international law is “Empire’s law”. Amy Bartholomew defines empire’s law as:

the idea that there is a nonreciprocal right of Empire to run roughshod over everyone else in the name of spreading its own values and its own conception of security globally.

Another way of saying this is simply “might makes right”, or anarchy. The preference of the United States for empire’s law over international law was made clear in a Pentagon document released in 2005 titled “National Defense Strategy of the United States of America”. The document says that the ‘changing security environment’ following 9/11 requires ‘global freedom of action’ for the United States, aimed at securing and promoting its interests. It lists as one of the United States’ major vulnerabilities:

Our strength as a nation state will continue to be challenged by those who employ a strategy of the weak using international fora, judicial processes, and terrorism.

Doug Feith, the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy in the George W. Bush administration, commenting on this ‘vulnerability’ at a press conference, said:

There are various actors around the world that are looking to either attack or constrain the United States, and they are going to find creative ways of doing that, that are not the obvious conventional military attacks.

Feith went on to characterize those ‘creative ways’ of constraining the United States as including diplomatic and technological means, which he characterized as ‘kinds of asymmetrical warfare’. When pressed to further characterize these ‘creative ways’ of ‘asymmetrical warfare’, Feith explained them as

arguments that some people make to try to, in effect criminalize foreign policy and bring prosecutions where there is no proper basis for jurisdiction under international law as a way of trying to pressure American officials.

Bartholomew sums up Feith’s statements on the subject:

How interesting and perverse that the Bush administration – the pinnacle of the American Empire – should view international law and international institutions as ‘strategies of the weak’ about which they should be concerned.


A brief (and incomplete) review of Bush administration war crimes and contempt for international law

George Bush has repeatedly condoned the abuse and torture of our prisoners of war, in violation of the Geneva Convention of 1949 and The Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment of 1984. He never withdrew from these conventions – he merely claimed that they didn’t apply to what he did, which is clearly not true.

His preemptive invasion of Iraq was clearly a violation of international law, and constitutes the crime of “aggressive war”, as the United Nations Charter prohibits the initiation or the continuation of war except under two circumstances: self-defense and when authorized by the UN Security Council to “take such action … as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security”.

Of the many institutions and traditions that George W. Bush attempted to destroy during his eight years in office, the International Criminal Court (ICC) tops the list. So vehement was his hostility to the ICC that it was almost as if he thought he might one day come under its jurisdiction himself. Though the Bush administration provided many excuses for its hostility to the ICC, the underlying issue appears to be that it cannot tolerate the possibility that an American could ever be tried before the Court. For example, Bush claimed that the Court’s jurisdiction cannot extend to Americans because that will undermine “the independence and flexibility that America needs to defend our national interests around the world”.

Philippe Sands, in his book “Lawless World – The Whistle-Blowing Account of How Bush and Blair Are Taking the Law into Their Own Hands”, poses the following pertinent rhetorical question in response to that excuse:

The flexibility to do what? The flexibility to commit war crimes? The flexibility to provide assistance to others in perpetrating crimes against humanity? The flexibility to turn a blind eye when your allies commit genocide?

Consequently, though President Clinton signed the ICC Statute, George Bush announced in 2002 that it was unsigning the statute. And he went well beyond non-participation, to active sabotage. For example, the American Service members’ Protection Act authorizes the American President to “use all means necessary and appropriate” to release any American national who is “being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the ICC”; it prohibits all American cooperation with the ICC; it prohibits participation of American troops in UN peacekeeping operations unless they are granted complete immunity from the ICC; and it prohibits the U.S. from providing military assistance to any country that is a party to the ICC (with some exceptions).


The meaning of Bush administration actions with respect to international (and U.S.) law

Amy Bartholomew makes the point that what the Bush administration did with respect to international law is far worse than merely ignoring it and breaking it with impunity:

I am calling empire’s law those attempts by the US to undermine the… post World War II development of human rights and international law that foreshadowed a future order of democratic cosmopolitan law. Empire’s law aims to derail that project and seeks to do so unilaterally, brutally, and by the projection of military as well as economic, cultural, political and even legal power across the globe. The proliferation of war crimes committed by the United States and the legal and ideological work it does to (redefine) those actions as not illegal is part of this threatening process. This is crucial, I think: To recognize that the crimes we are witnessing are not just egregious violations of the law, but rather are part of a broader strategy to reconstitute (i.e. redefine) the law itself.

In its report entitled “Guantanamo and Beyond: The Continuing Pursuit of Unchecked Executive Power”, Amnesty International said of US Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez… that he may have been involved in “a conspiracy to immunize US agents from criminal liability for torture and war crimes under US law”. And this, it should be noted, is part of the process of reconstituting the law: redefining torture and the rules against it, not just violating those rules.


A tolerance for atrocity

Mike Davis points out one of the greatest barriers to reinstating international law in place of the Empire’s law preferred by the United States:

Let’s face it, a tolerance for atrocity is now enshrined at every level of American culture. And because we are unmoved by the war crimes of the past, we are passive in the face of the monstrous acts being committed in our names today. Where are the congressional investigations, the public outcries, and the campus protests in the wake of the revelations about the torture regimes at Abu Ghraib, Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, and Guantanamo?

Michael Ratner, the lead lawyer in the Guantanamo cases that went to the US Supreme Court and the Rumsfeld case in Germany comments on the extreme disinterest in this situation by the U.S. national news media. He notes that even after winning the Supreme Court cases:

I have seen very little coverage of people who had been released from Guantanamo. Similarly, I don’t understand why the media didn’t cover the German case we brought. I was willing to give the New York Times an exclusive and they wouldn’t cover it.


Combating a tolerance for atrocity

As long as there remains such a high tolerance for atrocity in the United States, there will never be much demand to hold war criminals responsible for their crimes, and we can therefore expect to continue with our current system and attitude that the United States is not and should not be subject to international law – no matter who is president. As a remedy for that, Mike Davis suggests that the American people are in dire need of remedial education on the subject, and suggests that holding criminals legally accountable for their actions may be key:

If covering up, then lying about and denying American war crimes or, when necessary, shifting the responsibility for them far down the chain of command, has proved a thoroughly bipartisan business going back for several decades, if we are suffering a systematically produced ‘aura of mendacity’, as surely we are… it is surely the time to force the lid off the box. Investigation and publicity through litigation against political and military leaders is one of the means to do this.

Bartholomew further explains the value of litigation against the major perpetrators of war crimes:

It may have the distinct advantage of gathering support, through investigation and publicity, and through the constitution (i.e. defining) of the leading figures in the American empire literally as criminal in their actions, and thus may speak, thorough the legitimacy that law and legal institutions still have to offer, to wider segments of the population. It may have a special potential, in other words, to delegitimate empire – particularly one that claims to be ‘benevolent’ (Don’t they all?) – and thus contribute to a sense of the political responsibility that its citizens bear for its crimes.


Preserving the rule of law

When the victorious Allies at the conclusion of World War II conducted the Nuremburg Tribunal with the purpose of holding the leading Nazis accountable for their war crimes and crimes against humanity, one of the main criticisms was that the Tribunal was a fraud because the Allies would be unwilling to hold themselves subject to the same standards if the tables were reversed.

When President Roosevelt conceived of the United Nations Organization, and upon his death President Truman worked to bring it to fruition, those actions represented good faith efforts to prove that the United States was sincerely enthusiastic about international law, and in the interest of world peace and harmony was willing to work hard to make it a reality.

We’ve come a long way since then, hitting the depths of depravation under the administration of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. Amy Bartholomew describes the crisis that we now face:

The power of American Empire seems committed to fight every attempt to develop (international law)… going so far as to associate it with ‘asymmetrical warfare’ by the weak against the strong… Prior to extending the global field of law is the need to defend what has been in place but which is currently under egregious attack – the Geneva Conventions etc. which, as Karen Parker has put it, face likely “death… if other States do not rally.” It is the defense and the extension of (international law) that the American Empire currently seeks to undermine.

Empire’s law seeks exceptions, evasions and legal arrangements that accommodate its needs and desires while marginalizing others – treating them as if they were mere objects… That the American Empire seeks to reconstitute and redefine the law virtually by unilateral fiat, with enormous pressure placed on its ‘coalition’… attacks the internal legitimacy of law… It is, therefore, inadequate… to assume that the Bush Administration’s position in relation to law is one merely of acting lawlessly. Its implications are much more threatening than this. Its violations of international humanitarian law are being underwritten by policy and legal arguments that justify this impunity.

It is great, of course, that we now have a new presidential administration that is without question much more inclined to submit to international law than the recently departed one. Nevertheless, so many of the attitudes of Empire’s law remain ingrained in the American consciousness, and they are likely to continue to do so unless those who perpetrated war crimes and crimes against humanity are held legally accountable for their crimes. Unless and until that happens I expect that international law – the last best hope for world peace and prosperity – will die.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm wiling to bet that there's pressure right now for the US to join the IC
and this is one reason


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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I sure do hope so
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libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
3. I kept hoping that congress was waiting for Bush to leave office
so that he wouldn't just issue a blanket pardon for himself and everyone who served with him. I hope that evidence is being gathered. I'd like to see jail time, fines, and heads rolling. I'm serious. The crimes should be exposed and a public condemnation at the very least. I don't want to feel complicit in the evil that was allowed to flourish. All the war-profiteers who were in office ought to have their stock portfolios emptied back into the economy. Those guys and Condi need to be punished to assuage our collective conscience. The guilt is eating me up.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Absolutely -- And its much more important than just assuaging our collective consciences
Edited on Tue Mar-03-09 07:16 AM by Time for change
The rule of law in country and the world are at stake. If we set a precedence for crimes of such magnitude to be committed with impunity, as long as you're a high level government official, then such crimes will continue to be committed -- if not during the Obama administration, then afterwards. It's a terrible precedent to set, and it's going to be so much more difficult to change it later. If the precedent is allowed to stand, it could very well mean the end of world civilization as we know it and the destruction of our planet.
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libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. You are so right Time
and thanks for all the work you did to compile such an outstanding litany of evidence. I appreciate it. I love knowing I'm in the company of someone who cares and someone who can see the damage done. I have an unreasonable fear and I know it's not a healthy place to be operating from, but I'm so worried that this will be swept under the carpet or just a few hand slaps to an underling or two. I hate having the rule of law violated, our constitution subverted, the Geneva Conventions ignored. I don't like the moral and ethical ramifications for our people. Why should people remain inherently good and innocent when that equals patsy. I'm afraid for the higher aspirations of western civilizations evaporating in greed and perversion. You are correct about the destruction of years of civilizing human beings.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I feel very similarly
I do hope that President Obama takes this very seriously. He probably has a lot of pressure on him to let the criminals go free. I hope he has the courage to resist that pressure.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Yeah, no more cushy sinecures like Karl Rove's pundit
seats on ABC and FOX. These guys should at the very least be shunned in civilized society and made to look over their shoulders constantly. That's the very LEAST that should happen. Obviously what should really happen is arrest, prosecution, and long prison sentences, along with having to forfeit all their ill-gotten gains. This goe for the war profiteers, too.
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libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Yes that makes me sick
they have no shame or they wouldn't show their faces in public ever again. What kills me is they are not sorry They act like they don't know they have done anything wrong. The idea that Condi Rice can go back to being a professor, or John Yoo, for that matter frightens the hell out of me. I can not stand KKKarl Rove's repugnant giant talking head looming over Faux news. After all he did to Don Siegleman. Why is he not down in the basement jail of congress?
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
5. great stuff, Tfc . . . as usual . . . n/t
.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thank you OneBlueSky
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
7. Another well thought out and concise argument
to lay out the Bush cartel for the international gangsters they are. They have disgraced this nation and looted our treasury on the backs and with the blood of our military. They are the worst we've ever suffered. Their assets and their family's assets should be frozen until "equal justice under the law" is meted out.
We are now at the tipping point as to whether we will survive as a representative democracy or become what we fought against and defeated in WW II. Letting the cartel walk away with impunity will cause the International community, including traditional allies, to use whatever means necessary and available to isolate us and make us come begging hat in hand.
The tarnished remnants of the Nixon Administration, Cheney and Rumsfeld, were key players in the effort to destroy America. By letting them walk away unscathed we allowed them to return with the knowledge and tactics of succeeding where they had previously failed. If they were investigated, prosecuted, convicted and punished 35 years ago perhaps we wouldn't be the pariahs they made us.
One solution is to allow International law enforcement to kidnap Bush cartel members and enablers and render them to jurisdictions where war crimes are still recognized as war crimes.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Thank you: "By letting them walk away unscathed we allowed them to return with
the knowledge and tactics of succeeding where they had previously failed."

How true.

And worse, we set a clear precedent that gives the message that future presidential administrations can do this sort of thing with nothing to fear.

I like the idea of allowing International law enforcement to kidnap Bush's accomplices (and Bush himself). But that could be tricky. It could cause an international incident whereby President Obama might face great pressure to "do something". Also, ICC rules require that the home nation have the primary responsibility for prosecuting the war criminals. Perhaps the ICC could take over on the rationale that the home country failed to act. But I think that they would have to give the Obama administration a little more time to see if they decide to act on their own.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. In the early days of the Iraq War, I e-mailed the editors of my local RW rag (Scripps)
asking them to explain to their readers how the bombardment, invasion, and occupation of Iraq differed materially from the Japanese, Italian, and German occupations during the 1930s and why Justice Jackson's pronouncements at Nuremberg as to what constitutes war crimes were not applicable here. Needless to say, they did not do so, in fact, their only action was to block my e-mail address. Later canceled my subscription, but would still like an answer to those questions :D
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Those are great questions
And seriously, our government owes us thorough answers to those questions.
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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. The Unsigning
Here is an interesting thread. A State Department Document on the Administrations unsigning of the Rome Statute. Posted by kpete.

American Foreign Policy and the International Criminal Court
Marc Grossman, Under Secretary for Political Affairs. Remarks to the Center for Strategic and International Studies Washington, DC.
May 6, 2002
As Prepared

Good morning. Thank you for that kind introduction. It’s an honor to be here today. I would like to thank CSIS for hosting this discussion of American foreign policy and the International Criminal Court. Let me get right to the point.
And then I’ll try to make my case in detail:
Here’s what America believes in:

*We believe in justice and the promotion of the rule of law.

*We believe those who commit the most serious crimes of concern to the international community should be punished.

*We believe that states, not international institutions are primarily responsible for ensuring justice in the international system.

*We believe that the best way to combat these serious offenses is to build domestic judicial systems, strengthen political will and promote human freedom. We have concluded that the International Criminal Court does not advance these principles.




...Now for the rest of the story.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2728417

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. What a bunch of bull!
It's like if Hitler had lived and we just decided to let the Nazis decide what to do with him.

These idiots don't seem to understand that when the United States is led by war criminal psychopaths, the rest of the world has a stake in the matter becuase it has profound effects on him.

Grossman is essentially criticizing the ICC on the basis that it doesn't give the United States veto power over all of their decisions.
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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. an interesting fact
http://www.iccnow.org/index.php?mod=region&idureg=4

While Canada has been strongly supportive of the Court, the United States has a recent history of opposition to the ICC. Since Nuremberg, the United States had historically supported international mechanisms to enhance accountability. United States’ President Bill Clinton signed the Rome Statute on December 31 December 2000, the last day that it was open for signature.

Shortly after the Bush Administration entered office and just before the 1 July 2002 entry into force of the Rome Statute, US President George W. Bush “nullified” the Clinton signature on 6 May 2002, alleging that the United States would no longer be involved in the ICC process and that it did not consider itself as having any legal obligations under the treaty.

The legality of such a “nullification” is unclear and the subject of debate by international legal scholars. Since 2002, the Bush Administration has undertaken a policy of active opposition to the Court through a global campaign to obtain immunity from ICC jurisdiction through a multi-pronged approach.

This indicates to me that the "court is still out" as to whether to accept the unsigning. Up in the air. Undermining the International Criminal Courts jurisdiction seems to have caused a stir. I get a feeling they are looking into additional charges. This might get very interesting.

Here is some more info.
http://www.iccnow.org/index.php?mod=usaicc Nicely organized.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. An important point about Bush's "unsigning" of the ICC
Regardless of the fact that Bush unsigned the ICC, the ICC still has jurisdiction over crimes that were committed on the soil of nations who are members of the ICC. There are plenty of them, and the Bush administration committed several of its crimes against humanity of the soil of such nations. So George Bush and Dick Cheney are under the jurisdiction of the ICC whether they like it or not.
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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. ?
Which States Tfc?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. We've kidnapped people all over the world, and we used secret prisons for torture in at least 8
other nations.

Here's a post that talks about this in some detail:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1156927

Here's an article about the secret prisons:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644_pf.html

Here's an article about the kidnappings:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30275-2005Mar12.html

It is also relevant that Germany has universal jurisdiction against crimes against humanity, and was considering indicting Rumsfeld on that basis:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1413907,00.html
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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-04-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Ok
I wondered if you were talking about rendition. I should have said so. Sorry.

My understanding of the ICC is the crime must be in at least one member state. What I don't understand is the ratification process. Afghanistan is now in this process. Does this make her ineligible as to jurisdiction for Bush crimes?

What pisses me off is we have to have this discussion. That this land of Freedom, Liberty, Democracy, Justice for All is debating whether or not to investigate, indict, imprison Bush and Company.

Crimes? Crimes against the Constitution, Targeting civilians on lists for investigation. Listing for flying, listing for reading books, listing for peacefully assembling, listings made by illegal wiretap, illegal surveillance and much much worse.

Seven years of tribulation with Bush. The gloves should be off.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kick back to the top and to read more later...thanks! n/t
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. I Just LOVE Your Posts!
more reading material for my boys too!

:)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-03-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. That's great to hear -- Thank you
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