F*ck the Dow.... Can Greed Die Already?

[kpete]

F*ck the Dow.... Can Greed Die Already?
by kubla000
Mon Mar 02, 2009 at 10:15:05 AM PST

Excuse the rant, i just got to thinking...

the Dow has never helped the middle class get healthcare... instead the continous drive for "profit" created death by spreadsheet.

the Dow didn't give me or you or my mom a raise... instead the continious drive for "profit" capped the income of the working class

the Dow didn't create my job... instead it caused my neighbor to lose his job as it was shipped to India in the seek of "profit"

the Dow won't save my job... instead it may kill it... so today, as it drops, I say FUCK the dow because finally the greedy bastards on Wall Street are feeling the heat that we've been living in for decades.

more at:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/3/2/125413/8913/...

[Parche]

1. agreed

the dow does not an economy make

[Taverner]

2. Someone once said "the DOW ticker at the bottom of the screen should not be seen as the vitals

...for the economy"

[steelmania75]

3. All we really need to worry about is the unemployment rate. That's all that matters.

[anigbrowl]

25. They used to have full employment in the USSR

I was there when communism was still in full swing. I liked the Russian people but I wasn't particularly surprised when the societ system collapsed. Abolishing capital markets makes no more long-term sense than enslaving oneself to them.

[JDPriestly]

164. Trust keeps capitalism going. Trust is lost when people cheat.

That is why we need the enforcement of consistent uniform accounting and disclosure regulations. Good regulation insures maximal honesty and openness and makes capitalism work.

The Bush administration failed to enforce existing rules and refused to change and strengthen regulation. And here we are.

[formercia]

173. We pretend to work and they pretend to pay us.

We may see it here.

[skooooo]

4. The greedy who have a little retirement money..?

...in the stock market? Just because someone has been able to invest some piddling amount of money (relatively speaking) doesn't mean they are greedy, or deserve what's happening.

[earth mom]

15. When you exploit others to make your money-this is what you get. Karma. nt

[TBF]

41. Awesome response. Pathetic that it is needed on a democratic site. n/t

[Skittles]

63. I agree

[kegler14]

176. I assume you buy nothing from countries that exploit labor, such as China?

[conspirator]

66. Agreed. The stock exchange is about businesses that exploit cheap labor

If you want to have a happy retirement at the expense of people who work at sweat shops you deserve to be ripped off.

[TBF]

69. Not to mention that it's a scam to begin with. We don't bail out casinos

and we shouldn't be bailing out investment banks. Same concept.

[skooooo]

90. My but your high and mighty...

...maybe when you come back down to earth we can discuss something.

[HughMoran]

156. Except the 401k plans have limited investment choices

I rather doubt anybody feels like they were being exploited when they received a tax break and their company doubled their contribution.

I get your point, but the "karma" adder is over the top IMHO.

[JDPriestly]

166. Working people who saved for retirement were not greedy.

They are not the people who invested in hedge funds or bought houses they could not afford. They were trying to plan ahead and prepare for the day when they would no longer work. They were trying to avoid becoming a burden to younger working people one day when they could no longer work. Ordinary people who do without in order to save and invest are responsible, not greedy.

[renate]

170. thank you, Voice of Reason! n/t

[OwnedByFerrets]

183. But THEY, like ME put their money into a GAMBLING scheme.

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The stock market is nothing more than gambling. Don't go whining if you lose.

[dem mba]

168. that is utter bull

what did you use to log on to this site and type your post? a computer? you really think it was made without cheap labor? the monitor? the processors? the plastic keyboard? you think it was made without exploiting someone somewhere? of course it was.

if you're a consumer, hell, if you're an American, you're complicit on some level. you buy a stock, you buy a cheeseburger (watch Fast Food Nation to see what I'm talking about), you buy a computer. it doesn't matter.

my point being - don't act like stocks are evil when other commodities are just as impure.

[Beavker]

190. At least someone built these things we bought, and I WORKED for the cash to buy it.

People that want 0 capital gains taxes want to cash in by investing the money they already had aren't providing anything of value other to themselves. These people made money off of the sweat of the workers, and you spending your money to buy these products from your measly salary. Because of you two people, Mr. Accredited Investor/Investment Banker just got rich. He did nothing.

[treestar]

136. so there is no other way, you can't retire unless there is a stock

market?

It always involves risk. Why risk something so important as your retirement?

The attitude that only the stock market can provide for it is interesting. Everyone who does that risks it being 1929 when they retire.

[HughMoran]

157. 401k plans have limited investment choices

Why would anybody refuse a tax shelter where their company may be up to doubling a person's input to the fund?

[treestar]

159. I'm just questioning this one assumption so many make

Granted the tax situation encourages it, along with home buying.

but when you sit down and think about it, the stock market is a terrible place to sink your retirement funds. It's a gamble. So you risk it being at a downswing during your retirement years.

Most of us seem conditioned to feel entitled to a rise in the value of the stock market over time. Interesting that we do not demand a fuller social security program with that recognition.

Even real estate values could in theory go down. It is all a gamble. Yet why should there by any bailout of those who risk their retirmement savings to the stock market, especially by those without enough to play the stock market to start with? I cuold see doing it to keep people employed, but that doesn't have to involve the stock market.

[JDPriestly]

169. The ERISA laws encourage investing in the stock market.

They were passed during the Nixon era. Even if you have a union pension fund (especially if you have a union pension fund), a great deal of your pension money is probably invested in the stock market. It is just a matter of time before teachers' pensions and union pensions begin to feel the squeeze.

[eridani]

137. I remember that in the 50s all savings accounts had 5% interest

That was how most people saved. They didn't fuck around with their retirement money in the stock market. What was wrong with that?

[Grinchie]

147. Exactly! The Federal Policy makes Saving Rates truly worthless

I remember the 5% rates too, and nobody these days ever wonders why banks get 0.25% Interest, effectively free money, then leverage it into existance. Capital reserves? Hah!

You know they are screwed when you see a 5% cd these days because the bank is looking for Hot money to shore up it's debts. Most likely the bank will be closed like Indymac was.

I don't trust any of them, and I've had everything in my Safe Deposit box since 2006. Not so much for fear of a bank collapse, but as a protest to the fractional reserve system that doesn't reward saving in any way. The only thing they reward is consumption and debt, and I don't buy it.

[bluescribbler]

174. In the 50's

Most companies of any size also offered some sort of a pension plan. That has pretty much disappeared now, thanks to Reagan and the 401K's.

[rucognizant]

196. I've been watching............

Several years ago, when Nestle was trying to buy ( take-over?) Hershey's chocolate..........I was opposed, knowing the background story. Old man Hershey was grateful for the company making him rich. He gave back by creating a school & home for orphaned boys...
Nestle, on the other hand was killing 3rd world babies with bad baby formula. It is a giant International corporation.
Over a week or so as negotiations prov ceeded, every time Nestles appeared to be, winning the negotiations.................. the stock price in Hershey's went up. If part of that was just "little guys" trying to build a modest nest egg, they need to stop being so clueless.
At the end of the day, some of the graduates of his school managed to buy the company and planned to run it.

[Ganja Ninja]

5. I think we need to do away with 401K's and replace it with a bond program.

What good has the 401 K program ever been? Ever since it's conception we've had one economic bubble after another blow up in investors faces. It's been great for the bankers and investment houses. They've shorted stocks and over charged customers and made a killing doing it but that wasn't the reason it was created.

[scarletwoman]

79. Actually, that's PRECISELY why 401Ks were created: to funnel more money upwards to Owner Class.

You don't honestly think that getting rid of defined pensions and sending worker's money into the stock market instead was for the WORKER'S benefit, do you?

It's one of the most brilliant scams ever. Convince poor old Joe Sixpack that putting his hard-earned money into the Stock Market was "saving for retirement", instead of what it really was -- putting bets down in a casino where the House ALWAYS wins.

I'm truly sorry, but people who went along with the whole 401K thing were CONNED, big time.

sw

[Pavulon]

84. Umm, no

my pension company as well as every financial rag i read suggested selling stock based items for cash based securities.

Net loss 3% fees included. 401k is a massive source of wealth if managed properly. As are other instruments available to "joe six pack"

However one must be aware of the system.

[AllentownJake]

87. The era of the 401(k)

is about to die.

This financial crisis aside. What the fuck do you think is going to happen when all those baby boomers start selling the securities in their 401(k) to support themselves and there are less workers to buy the shares in their 401(k)s?

At the end of the day, economics will always come down to supply and demand.

[Pavulon]

98. They dump them all at once right?

not quite. But for the chicken little crew this is a fun time.

[AllentownJake]

102. No however

you reach a peak because you have a large population buying securities and than that population stops buying and starts selling over time. The people left who are buying are a smaller population than the ones who are selling. Unless that group chooses to buy more securities please tell me how my investment in the stock market increases over time as a member of Generation X

Oh yeah and the number of jobs that enable 401(k) investment has decreased too as the middle class has shrank.

[Pavulon]

109. easy answer..

companies can repurchase stock. Shares can be purchased by institutions and securitized. Of course there are numerous ways stock prices can be corrected by market forces.

You are talking about a very long term event in a global market.

[AllentownJake]

111. I spent 5 years in Financial Services

As an auditor and in Compliance...I'm well aware of the shell game.

I don't trust the stock market because I've been in the room with the swine who sell it.

[Pavulon]

113. There are many investments other than stock

many are highly regulated when compared to the nyse. The problem is far reaching and must be addressed in private sector business with regulation. There is no reason this event should have happened.

[AllentownJake]

117. Nope it should never have happened

You have companies issuing what is effectively an insurance product in the form of a derivative without keeping reserves like your auto, health, and life insurance policies are required to have.

Bush weakened the enforcement powers of the SEC to a point that in 2004 the Attorney General of NY had more power and investigations than the SEC had going on.

You have sales practices going on that are absolutely horrible by registered reps and no one checking up on them.

You have boiler rooms going on all over wall street for everything from commodities to stocks to bonds.

You have a margin requirement of 5% which encourages high risk taking.

I could go on and on.

[PassingFair]

178. No...no reason at all.

You must run with THIS crowd:

[yodoobo]

161. Its analgous to peak oil

Peak stock?

Peak oil the oil doesn't run out suddenly, but inflows slow.

In this case, the flow out retiring boomers sell at a slightly faster rate than there are buyers - putting a generation long downward pressure on stocks.

[Common Sense Party]

141. Foreign investors will be happy to buy those shares.

So will I.

[acmavm]

144. Oh please, explain this 'massive source of wealth' that Joe Sixpack

has at his fingertips.

[JDPriestly]

180. Thank you, AllentownJack, I have been pointing this out for years.

Remember when Bush claimed Social Security was in trouble due to the demographics? Well, any demographic that affects Social Security will also affect 401(K)s and thus the stock market. It is a no-brainer. When baby-boomers retire and start living on their savings, the whole economy tanks. There is no alternative.

What we need is flexible work schedules and strict enforcement of age discrimination laws in the workplace. Lots of baby-boomers would work longer if they had schedules they could manage physically (You get tired at odd times as you get older) and if they continued to have the same opportunities for advancement, job security and interesting work that younger people have. Unfortunately, as it is now, once you are over 50, you have hard time getting or keeping a decent job.

[scarletwoman]

120. Yeah, it's the fault of those too uninformed to read "every financial rag".

Just because YOU figured out how to get through with only a 3% loss, I guess everyone else who got fucked just deserved it.

Yeah, "one must be aware of the system." For sure, since the system is set up for the rich to suck up as much of everyone else's money as they can get their hands on.

You go ahead and defend "the system", I never will.

sw

[Pavulon]

124. I made a FREE call to the fidelity 800 number

how do you guys suggest i deal with this. They laid out 3 choices. One which involved a split into a fund that grew, would have made money.

I did NOTHING special.

It is a VOLUNTARY market.

[scarletwoman]

131. How "voluntary" is it when every "expert" and authority figure is telling you that *this* is how you

"save" for retirement. And furthermore, is telling you that if you DON'T participate, you're a stupid fool and you'll be broke when you get old.

People were CONNED into playing the Stock Market, when they had no business getting anywhere near it. But the big guys just loved getting all that extra money to play with.

And YOU, Mr. "3% net loss", were all for going along with it because you were so sure it would be "a massive source of wealth" for YOU.

sw

[Pavulon]

134. umm, we are surrounded by sell. I see ads here

all the time. I resist the urge. Roth IRA can be used for pre tax money, I think. 401k does not have to be stock. Basically i dumped stock for cash.

And i would have been screwed out of money had it reversed.

Sorry every prospectus has a clear message.

[SOS]

193. We did the same

The jerk on the line spent half an hour trying to convince us to stay with mutual funds.
"Over the long haul, stocks are always the best for your retirement...blah blah blah".
We said get us out of stocks now and into a fixed rate. Luckily this was a few years ago.

Since then, due to corporate "downsizing" we have had to tap into the retirement account to stay afloat.
We comfort ourselves by saying "At least we spent it on bills, rather than watch half of it disappear into the black hole of Wall Street"

[tnlefty]

119. Thank you!

And people were forced into them and not allowed the options of pensions.

[Grinchie]

149. I must add that they don't teach people about money at all

Leaving them to be corralled into the penned to be slaughtered by the wolves time and again. Poor old Joe Sixpack doesn't care, because numbers make his head hurt, so his Financial Adviser does all the work (Supposedly) for him.

The shift from Defined Benefit programs to the 401K system put all of the responsibility on the wage earners shoulders, while at the same time, they purposefully witheld basic money management and theory, creating an industry of advisor to fill the gap.

Whats worse is that your savings is taxed how many times? The 401K penalty for early withdrawl is a really messed up clause, especially in an emergency situation. How dare you take money out that you put in! Let me slap some punitive tax on you Joe Sixpack!

[JDPriestly]

189. They didn't just purposefully withhold financial information

from people, they cheated. Plain and simple. They cheated. They sold short while touting buying long on various business news networks. Shame on them.

[loudsue]

171. I agree. And that is also why republiCONS wanted to "privatize" social security.

Just more of the same ponzi scam.

[scarletwoman]

199. Hey, loudsue, great to see ya! Hard to believe that more people don't see it for what it is,

isn't it?

Wall Street says, "Let US take care of your hard-earned money (heh heh)." And people fall for it. They may as well have put their money into lottery tickets.

sw

[loudsue]

200. Good to see you, too, scarletwoman!

These days, I'm more and more amazed at how much even hard core dems don't see. Do we all have Mad Cow or something?

[TXRAT2]

130. Then by all means don't invest in any.

[crimsonblue]

6. Greed is inherent in all of biology, and it is biologically important.

Greed stems from the need to better oneself, or make one better than other competitors. This increases the ability of the individual, or organism, to propogate and spread its genetics. Animals mate like crazy and nature truly is a dog-eat-dog world. In nature, as in society, the craftiest, best organisms will rise to the top. Now, in the case of society, this is not necessarily a good thing, as it can cause deplorable conditions for those below. But I'm not going to debate the moral goodness of greed; it's sufficient enough to say that it is necessary and sometimes beneficial.

[navarth]

8. I think it mght be biologically important to evolve out of it.

We're overrunning the planet, and without a new paradigm we're doomed. I'm just sayin'.

[crimsonblue]

10. The solution is to move to another planet.

In order for the long-term survival of our species to be secured, we need to branch out past the earth. We need to mass-colonize the moon and Mars. I'd be willing to bet that there will be > 50 million people living on the moon and Mars by the year 4000.

[Duende azul]

26. Bookmarking this post for later review.

I think you are wrong on this one.
But let´s wait and see.

[crimsonblue]

27. The earth won't be able to sustain us for long unless we have drastic action

this drastic action will do two things: save our own ecosystem, allow us to create a new ecosystem. Once we are able to create a sustainable environment, then we are no longer tied down to earth. humanity belongs in space. We need to explore the cosmos and find the other intelligent life that is almost certainly out there. The survival of the human race depends on leaving earth, because the earth will not always be hospitable to life (meteor or asteroid strike, intense gamma rays, nuclear holocaust, death of the sun--- all could end life on earth).

[salinen]

31. Spreading the toxic germ

that is the human race to other locations? I say no. Humans are not Divine or even important.

[crimsonblue]

33. then why don't you just kill yourself then?

"the toxic germ that is the human race"? wow.

[salinen]

47. Thanks!

"humanity belongs in space. We need to explore the cosmos and find the other intelligent life that is almost certainly out there."

Why? Do you work at NASA?

[navarth]

115. salinen, I don't know you but

your answers really sound ignorant. sorry.

I don't agree with him telling you to kill yourself, but...damn. If you can't see the need to expand into space, I don't know what to say to you.

I mean, if we continue to be the toxic germ you refer to, we won't make it to the stars anyway. But I prefer to think we'll pass the ultimate test.

[navarth]

114. Well....

I like Sci Fi too, and I agree wholeheartedly, except for one thing:

If we're extinct in the year 4000, we can't colonize. The whole web of life is in danger of collapse way back here in the 2000's.

I'd say we need to change our act just to make it to the colonization stage. I fear there's a lot of dead people and ruined buildings between here and there.

[eridani]

138. A good plan, but if we continue to fuck up our current planet--

--the chances for getting serious about space exploration will be closed off forever. There is never going to be a cheap, easy to use energy source like oil again, so we either invent the next economy starting right now, or we ain't going anyplace but straight to hell.

[hfojvt]

11. nature is typically not dog-eat-dog

It's dog eat deer or dog eat rabbit or dog eat turkey, but not dog eat dog. And the deer are eating my azaleas. And that wascawwy wabbit is eating my carrots. Greed, particularly homicidal greed, is not necessary. Nor are the craftiest, or the meanest and strongest, necessarily the 'best'.

[crimsonblue]

12. The idea is that greed is a natural biproduct of natural selection

Those that are best suited to their environment have the best chance to propogate and spread their ideas. For years, high finance has been relatively unregulated, meaning that those best suited to breaking ethical guidelines were the most sucessful. Greed is a result of an ineffective regulatory mechanism. Want to prevent wanton greed? Put in place better regulations.

[hfojvt]

13. that idea is an error, created by the greedy to justify their own greed

both to themselves and to those with false consciousness. Regulations are necessary, but not sufficient. Greed is also a result of a society that glorifies the greedy.

[salinen]

32. That won't prevent greed

Greed is a behavior.

[Fire1]

54. But a 'learned' behavior.

[hiphopnation]

50. you've contradicted yourself

greed is a natural biproduct of natural selection

and

Greed is a result of an ineffective regulatory mechanism

which is it?

incidentally, I happen to agree with you about humans finding other planets to inhabit. We've trashed this one, time to find somewhere else, and hopefully we'll be more mindful of the stewardship of the new one.

[Grinchie]

151. Greed is a method of control

An excuse to take something that you don't really need from somebody else. More of an excuse to throw the world into dis equilibrium.

[leftstreet]

60. This is why the Public Library System failed

Greedy people checked out all the books, and never brought them back.

Oh, wait...

[Runcible Spoon]

73. Social Darwinism: not just for neocons anymore!

Why ANYONE would believe this crap on this board is beyond me. While higher primates certainly exhibit behaviors like "greed", they also display self-sacrifice and benevolence as well. Examples of wanton greed as well as altruism can be found in countless species.

This doesn't even get into the fact that humans tamper their biological drives through cultural restrictions and modifications of behavior. I'm not going to buy the argument that we are greedy "by nature" and all of the attendant apologies for capitalism that accompany that logic.

[readmoreoften]

121. Tired old canard. Anger is also hard-wired. Let's legalize murder while we're at it.

[Grinchie]

150. Survival of the Fittest is now defunct.

Survival of the most alert and awake is the latest theory, and since it's all backed up by quantum physics, the random chance mutation hypothesis is more or less dead.

[formervolunteer]

195. :thumbsdown:

This is the single dumbest thing I've read in years.

Be cool, warn us before saying something so far out with false backing. Quantum physics does not back your silly claim up. At all. Are you a psychology major? 'Cause you sound like one.

[DrZeeLit]

7. Thanks. 30 years of working my ass off (altho, dammit I still have an ass) and saving via 401K and

Tax Deferred Annuities (because I am a teacher and our pension is b.s.)... and IRA....just sinking into the sunset.
Great.
Yeah.... "The Dow".... but you know... it's NOT all fat cats sipping champagne.
It's me, and millions of other middle class Americans, who have invested -- and I'll tell you, I did my homework on this stuff.
I'm 57. I hope I can rebuild. But whoa... it's a blow to the solar plexus.

It's my mom, who was an RN her entire life, now 82 years old. Half that time, she worked as a nurse in downtown LA. She NEVER had a retirement plan; later she worked for a doctor in private practice.
As you know, nobody can live on only Social Security. My mom is totally "with it" -- but she can't go back to work.
So, she's home, watching a lifetime of savings go down the drain.
I don't know that she hasn't moved money into bonds; I hope so, but I'm not happy that she has to worry at this stage in her life.


I, for one, am not happy about this.

Maybe you should rethink your rant?

This is a very complicated situation that can't be covered in a blanket rant.

[Jennicut]

17. I feel for those with 401ks but the honest truth is the stock market is manipulated

on a regular basis so people at the top get what they want. Oil was artificially inflated. Now everything is artificially being deflated. Its a sick, twisted game the big Wall St. guys play with people's livelihoods. I have a 401k that is worthless now too.

[JuniperLea]

40. Manipulation, exactly...

And they try to make us think it has something to do with our economy, when it's really only about theirs. Ours is not theirs, etc.

[skooooo]

94. According to some on here, you're as guilty as the ..

....big wheelers that made off with billions. Go figure. Some people have no sense of perspective whatsoever.

[Jennicut]

128. Not guilty just pointing out that the market has been manipulated

and we are merely pawns in the game. Unfortunately lots of everyday Americans rely on their 401ks to retire on. I wonder if there is a better solution to putting money aside for retirement then allowing the market to determine if we can retire or not. My own parents lost tons of money and I am worried about what my Dad will do. He is near retirement age.

[Common Sense Party]

142. It's "worthless"? Or it's worth LESS than what it used to be?

There's a big, big difference.

If you're saying your 401 is now at $0, then that is worthless, and you made some HUGE mistakes.

[leftofthedial]

9. I think of the Dow as the countdown clock to the end of "American" capitalism

[dem mba]

162. Well it's been ticking since 1896

and yes, it does go up and down.


edit - fixed the date

[leftofthedial]

181. capitalism is unsustainable in a world without free (or very cheap) and plentiful resources.

It is a shell game and now the last pea is gone.

[dem mba]

185. its not unsustainable

it just has much slower growth and is not as profitable. However, the last "pea" of cheap labor and resources is far from gone. To put it bluntly, there are still third world countries that the machine has not plundered yet. New technologies can also change what we consider to be a valuable resource (for ex. silicon and the computer chip).

[leftofthedial]

191. fewer and fewer people believe in the existence of the pea

and/or realize that the game is a con.

[serrano2008]

14. Ahhh ha ha ha...good one...

This was supposed to be a joke right?

dow = greed? ha ha ha

[jillan]

16. Easy for you to say.

But some of us actually own stock.

[Writer]

18. God forbid my husband and I try to retire.

[TBF]

46. Nobody is saying you can't retire. How do you think other people

do it? They live off their social security.

[Writer]

74. But to associate that with greed is wrong-headed. n/t

[Pavulon]

81. Or murder people for money, turn tricks

you are one step away. Honest work, just out someone on their knees and blow their brains out, or blow them. Then you can take their stuff.

Grow up. Normal people invest money in companies. Not all are horrible choices.

YOu want to eat cat food in a shack, knock yourself out.

[TBF]

96. "Normal people" are having a hard time right now. I know exactly

what people do, I've been watching a long time. Doing something 100 years - or 200 - doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. But you and I have a very different world view. I'm willing to leave it at that.

[PassingFair]

179. We haven't been investing in companies for a LONG time.

We are investing in their investing.

PONZI.

[deaniac21]

19. Incredibly stupid article.

[newtothegame]

20. Good read...

[debbierlus]

21. Tell that to my father & millions of other hard working Americans who are losing their retirements

This system can't & won't sustain.

However, there are many people who worked hard all their lives, invested in 401ks, and now, they are seeing their entire retirement disappear. This is happening to my dad. A blue collar paper mill supervisor for over 40 years who worked swing shifts for 35 of them. He collasped on the mill floor of a heart problem (he is much better now). He always saved a good part of his pay check and he invested in the stockmarket under his companies matching program. He tried to do the right thing - work hard, invest, retire. He played by the rules. He hoped to provide for my mom & leave his kids a little something, besides. Now, I think he has lost nearly half of it.

I want the evil mutherfuckers to pay as much as anyone. I hate the current system. However, just remember, there are many innocent people who are suffering severely from this disaster. Many people who just worked and saved and scrimped, so that they could be okay in their old age.

[originalpckelly]

22. Greed will not die as long we are alive.

[TBF]

39. With that attitude it certainly won't. n/t

[GrizzlyMan]

105. Why do I have this image of a college kid with not a care in the world

It's easy to be right about everything from your dorm room. The real world isn't so simple.

[TBF]

108. Because you are trying to dismiss me. I am probably older than you

are, I grew up working class with a father who worked in a steel mill, and I have plenty of resources now. I think I understand the real world pretty well. And I also think the working class (which most of us are whether you identify that way or not) is not getting a very good deal. Soon more of you will have to decide which side you really fall on.

[dysfunctional press]

23. seeing as our entire country is built on it- probably not.

no, the dow didn't do it- but greed DID create your job.

[sarcasmo]

24. The sad thing, as long as money exists there will always be Greed.

Our society needs to start severely punishing people like Maddoff.

[AZ Criminal JD]

28. Fuck the Dow and all those pension plans that depend on it

Fuck working people. What an idiot.

[JuniperLea]

44. All those pension plans...

And all of us regular 401k and IRA types should have never been in the market to begin with. This was Reaganomics at its finest.

[AZ Criminal JD]

48. Where did you get that 401k and IRA?

From working for a company. The market supports those companies. So you shouldn't have been working for that company by your tortured logic.

[JuniperLea]

49. Bullshit

I know how this works. I worked for AIG. I owned AIG stock... employee purchase plan. And I know that the 401k and IRA plans were created to take the pressure off Social Security. The only problem is, there is no security in the stock market and there never has been. This is Reaganomics gone awry, plain and simple. Anyone who put their 401k or IRA funds into CD's and low but safe earning funds were harassed into spreading the money around, when in reality, leaving it in the guaranteed accounts wound up being a lot smarter than playing the market without benefit of the proper education to do so. I held an NASD securities license for years... you have to know how the market works to pass the test. IMHO everyone who invested in the stock market should have taken those study courses and passed the test before jumping into the unknown.

[AZ Criminal JD]

55. The stock market was created before Reagan was born

The market has had ups and downs since it was created. You answered nothing in my post and I knew you couldn't. Everyone has always said your assets should be diversified. If you had done that you wouldn't be wailing now.

[JuniperLea]

57. Try to follow along...

I didn't say the stock market, I said the 401k and IRA plans... I wasn completely diversified... and the only thing standing is the guaranteed.

Where did I wail? WTF are you talking about?

[AZ Criminal JD]

62. Where did you wail?

Read your posts. The stock market and 401k plans are part of one another. Anyone so stupid as to not see that should not be employed because you couldn't be doing a job.

[JuniperLea]

65. Hello Mr. Pot...

Anyone so stupid shouldn't be posting on DU.

Anyone who cannot follow a very, very simple train of thought shouldn't be allowed near the InterTubes.

Now, back up, and re-read this little sub-thread.

Apology accepted.

[AZ Criminal JD]

67. Now you are posting to yourself

And apologizing too! Weird.

[JuniperLea]

71. You are hereby on my personal ignore list

Don't take that to mean you win, just that you are IMHO too stupid to discuss this with at all.

I don't use the ignore button anymore... live and learn from fools and from sages... thanks for the lesson.

[AZ Criminal JD]

76. Ignored by anonymous internet electrons

The horror! The shame!

[sendero]

72. Actually..

... I think the 401K and IRA plans were designed to move corporations from a "defined benefit" retirement scenario to a "defined contribution" scenario.

In other words, they want it to be based on them giving a certain amount, not an open-ended commitment to fund your retirement until you die.

[JuniperLea]

75. Not all companies contribute

It's not mandatory. They were designed to take the heat off Social Security. Only the unions have funding promises like that.

We would have all been better off with fixed annuities.

[AngryAmish]

29. In what society, ever, was there no greed?

In what area of human conduct is there no greed? If not greed then a desire for better stuff then the next person. Does it exist in monasteries where vows of poverty have been taken?

And if one is not "greedy" then there is other desires...like for power. Desire for power is better and more noble than greed?

Bottom line: whoever wrote this is a fool who has not been paying attention to human behavior since the dawn of recorded history.

[readmoreoften]

122. In what society has there been no murder or xenophobia?

I guess it's time for us to legalize murder and kill everyone that seems to threaten our "clan."

Hey, I wonder how the world developed until the 16th century without USURY? Boggles the mind.

[cliffordu]

30. yep.

[Initech]

34. Greed never dies. It just grows new tentacles.

Personally I think these Wall St. fuckers are addicted to money and they should seek out a support group to help them deal with their addiction.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

35. This Kubla Sounds Like One Heck Of A Moron.

Is he a DU'er too? I'd be curious which one.

[brentspeak]

36. Unfortunately, millions and millions of retirement accounts are invested in the stock market

The average person is not the greedy one; it's the big wigs on Wall St. whose greed is killing everyone else.

[dcindian]

37. The DOW is helping send my child to college

Just got a letter from one of his larger scholarships. Until this mess straightens up his scholarship has been reduced by 40% if it holds for the four years it will cost us another 4,000 dollars to send him to college.

The scholarship comes from investments made off of donated money.

Many nonprofits are being hurt right now.

[TBF]

45. Non-profits wouldn't have to exist if we move beyond capitalism. Time to evolve. n/t

[Pavulon]

82. Move where. Point to a system right

now that is your base model. Sweden, you can try the USSR, somilia, UAE is nice (need lots of oil money).

What do you suggest?

[TBF]

101. I didn't say move to another system. I said "evolve".

We need something new. Let's make it up. Let's start with equality.

[Pavulon]

110. Are we takling religion or economics

lets start with reality.

[Grinchie]

152. First of all, abolish the federal reserve

Remove the big money interests controlling Industry, Government and research and give it back to the people.
Then the Government controls the currency based on resources and needs.

Abolish the Fractional Reserve system.

Those three alone would be a good start.

[JuniperLea]

38. The DJII has nothing to do with our economy

Demand creates jobs; jobs create supply and more demand. That's how it works. Oh, they try to cloud the simple reality.

[Mike 03]

42. Do you know what 401K is? Or a pension fund? Do you know what funds them?

Honest to christ, the degree of ignorance about the economic crisis around here astonishes me.

[JuniperLea]

51. What do you have in the way of training...

That makes you an authority on the stock market?

[SoCalDem]

53. An expert at a senate hearing the other day said the "average return" is only 2%

people would be better off if the boss and they just contributed to plain old bank CDs..long term ones that had to be rolled over.. at least then the principle would be preserved, and the money would be portable

[JuniperLea]

59. Exactly

We should have never been put in control of this. The only thing left standing after all the diversification we were harrassed into doing, is the CD's and other guaranteed money accounts. The average American doesn't know squat about the stock market, as evidenced by some of the posts on DU today, no question!

I agree with the expert at the senate hearing... this is what I've been saying since the proverbial poo hit the fan.

[Mike 03]

86. I might answer your question, but only if you tell me first why

it is relevant to my answer to this post?

What did I say that was in error?


Put up or shut up.

Also, you could try being POLITE.

[JuniperLea]

95. Your post was anything but polite...

You were actually calling people stupid! When you call people stupid based on arguments concerning the stock market, it's natural to want to know what makes you an expert.

Edited to quote you:

"Honest to christ, the degree of ignorance about the economic crisis around here astonishes me."

If you can judge and say others are ignorant, it's an honest question to ask what makes you an expert. Seriously, my question, upon a good couple of re-reads, was far more polite than yours! Far and above!

[TBF]

43. Fantastic article - thanks for posting. Interesting to read all the right-wing

responses here thought. Quite enlightening. K&R

[Pavulon]

85. What is the left wing logic. Where do i put my money?

under the mattress. Loan it out on the street. Use it to buy uncut cocaine to resell?

Give it to you?

[TBF]

99. As I said in another reply to you - we are coming at this from two

very different places. If you were serious I would answer your question, but you are just sniping.

[Pavulon]

103. No seriously. Where should I place money

for secure keeping. Bank, mattress, gold? Give it away?

You cant advocate the failure of the system and not have an alternative.

[TBF]

104. Why not? Is what we have worth saving? We can build something new. nt

[Pavulon]

112. Yeah, it represents a trade for my time

i use my time wisely. I expect to be compensated for not fucking off and giving a shit about what I do. Are you talking about a deregulated market or the entire system of government?

[TBF]

123. See this is what I'm talking about - you and I are on different ends of the spectrum.

I couldn't care less about compensation. I'm not motivated by money, not a good capitalist. Entire system of government.

[Pavulon]

126. When AA gives away free tickets to placed my family is, Nikon free D3x's

and free food is given out. I am game. Give me a system where I can have whatever I want with the same good faith input i give now and I am in.

If you have some animal farm bullshit, dont bother. I am always open minded to any good system. Legal that is.

[readmoreoften]

125. You get nothing. Your money very well may be worthless. But cheer up.

You don't "deserve" what you have any more than countless poor people "deserve" not to be able to feed their kids even though they work hard all their lives. You may have made a bad "investment" by putting all your eggs in the free-market basket. Just like others made the wrong "investment" by taking out student loans or working towards a career goal that didn't pan out.

My alternative is international socialism--without capitalist nations planting death squads in small villages, it'll be a lot easier to achieve. Will it be utopian? No. There would still be war. Some nations would be democratic, some would be authoritarian, ethnic wars would continue. Capitalism is thoroughly utopian. It has never "worked" for 90% of the world. Now it's failing to "work" for the other 10%.

But hey, don't worry.

[Pavulon]

127. Sure, If I get the AK and get to make up the rules

sounds good. My skillset is well adapted to the system you suggest.

Define this system. Details please. Where is it working now? CUba, former soviet union. Places i want to be.

Dont worry chicken little, we will not see this disaster in our lifetime.

[TBF]

129. You rock. n/t

[Grinchie]

153. The Mattress/Safe Deposit box has been an incredibly good place.

It sits there waited for the bottom of the Deflationary spiral, ready to be consumed at will.

But for you Pauvon, you can stick yours where the sun doesn't shine, because you sure sound you are upset about money in general. The nastiness in your remarks above is unacceptable.

[hiphopnation]

52. ugh

the dow is not meant to deliver healthcare or give your mom a raise
that's not it's purpose
did it get out of control? Yes.
But sorry if I can't take someone serious who doesn't understand the value it created for the middle class -- that's just freakin' dumb.

[mmonk]

56. The crash will not benefit you. Stop cheering it.

[JuniperLea]

58. The market needs to hit it's support level

Nothing anyone can do will stop this now that it's started.

[mmonk]

64. I know. I've been investing since 1979.

Some parts of the market may be getting close to oversold levels. I was expecting a bad day with the recent contraction report on the 4th quarter coupled with the AIG reported losses I knew were coming.

[leftstreet]

61. K&R

Fuck the Dow

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TBF]

70. I agree. Some of them are a little testy today because their investments

are down. You'd think you were in freeperville.

[Pavulon]

77. Only freepers invest. I mean a real D

lives in a cardboard box and eats grass. Or in a house they personally built and are isolated from every aspect of the economy.

No you are using a computer. Who do you think built that. Environmentally friendly happy go lucky co-ops.

Got lights on, unless you are running them on solar or wind, you are literally killing people. Coal fired, OMG you are worse than hitler.

Yep people who are plankowners give a fuck. Want to see the system you want, go to sudan. No stock market there. Just a free for all.

[TBF]

78. Like I said, really testy. n/t

[paulk]

192. you got fucking owned, kid.

[AllentownJake]

92. Our market for the past 30 years

has been a series of over inflated bubbles sold by traders to dumb asses who are pumping up a piece of shit to dump it later on..

[Pavulon]

100. Cyclical is the term you want

and yep, it is. more than 30 years, btw..

[AllentownJake]

106. No, cyclical is not the term

an ever moving tulip market financed by poor monetary policy of the federal reserve mixxed with the absolute greed, stupidity, and selfishness of the baby boom generation is the word.

[Pavulon]

116. I assume you have a short position...

wish i had had the balls to short any of the companies involved in this mess.

My defense stocks seem to be ok. Only ones i have not turned to cash.

[AllentownJake]

118. I totally cashed out in 2006

I was worried about doing it but I knew it was coming down and soon. I had health problems and that money ended up covering what my insurance didn't so I have no position but my health.

I also refused to buy a house back than as well. The premium you were paying for future market appreciation didn't make sense to me.

[TBF]

132. I did it in 2000. Used the money to go to grad school. It always made

me nervous to invest because on every paper was the disclaimer about it not being insured. My background is working class, my parents/grandparents kept money in safes (I kid you not - all the farmers who lived through the depression had big safes in their basements) and would also put away cash in cd's in the bank. Not a huge rate of return, but much less risk.

I have sympathy for those who are losing money now, because many really were conned. It's sad to watch.

[AllentownJake]

139. The Generation that lived through the depression passed on

and they weren't here to remind us of times of burrying money in your backyard in cans.

The banks fucked them back than and we got this silly idea that we had somehow involved and they wouldn't do it again.

Reagan's revolution conviently coincided with around the time that most people who were raising children in that time period dying or going to nursing homes.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

187. It's interesting how all these folks calling for financial equality are using computers....

....and prattling on while people are starving. Greed indeed.

[TahitiNut]

80. One of the first steps on being found to be a fool is denial.

Folks who swallowed the horseshit about the stock market and didn't get their asses out 10 years ago are FOOLS.

I'm not one to label anything and everything a "Ponzi scheme" but that's a good approximation of the Greter Fool market as any. I've seen the insider manipulation of Fortune 50 stock prices up close and personal. Outright fraud. It's so widespread and common that the U.S. Attorneys don't even bother with it ... not for the last 25 years.

[TBF]

91. Yeah, I do feel for them though. It sucks that people feel like they have no

choice but to invest. I don't envy Obama his job right now.

[Pavulon]

93. I made enough money in 10 years

after leaving college to repay what tuition gi bill did not and to save enough for tuition for my non existent kids. The market is not just the dow. The market is not today's close.

Every financial rag pointed to a drop in the markets. Many moved to money market before the elections. That was mainstream recommendation from advisers.

Unless the entire system collapses (in which case bigger problems exist) the matched 401k is smart. If you are 55 or younger this is a speed bump.

[AllentownJake]

107. If they fix the regulatory enviroment

you are correct. If they don't the system will collapse. If they don't fix the regulatory enviroment that caused this fucking disaster all we are doing is kicking the can for 4-5 years for the next bubble pumped up by our abysmal monetary policy and trade deficit.

[Grinchie]

154. Not when a 7 million dollar fraud would net a 25,000 dollar fine

And the guy is out on the streets again in 6 months doing the same thing.

[AllentownJake]

89. Alot of people bought into the myth the stock market always goes up in the long run

It sure does, when you don't chart the losses of the companies that cease to exist.

[specimenfred1984]

83. Capitalism is only as good as its regulation

It's not the DOW, it the criminals who allowed "deregulation" to rule the DOW and every other American company's stock. I think the American markets will only turn around when repub criminals are arrested, tried and sentenced and only then. We should start with the war criminals Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, Gonzales, Yoo and Libby.

[Grinchie]

155. Amen to putting the Bush Squad in shackles. N/T

[Kitty Herder]

88. K&R

[Dreamer Tatum]

97. Give me a motherf***ing break

That is the stupidest thing I have EVER seen.

Do you know how many people you would call "rich" have been utterly destroyed by what about 100 people at AIG, Citi, Lehman, and Merrill did? Legions. Tens of thousands. And people who work hard to deposit money in pension funds that were HONESTLY managed by careful investment managers? Hundreds of thousands.

You should NEVER let your utter ignorance and hatred cause you to judge so many other people.

[Danmel]

133. Thank you

The original poster sounds like Rush. Hoping for the failure of the markets impacts not only people whose pensions are gone and have no hope for a dignified retirement, let alone any retirement, but all of the wealth generated that supports philanthropic endeavors- medical research, food pantries, the arts and cultural institutions- all devastated. That's waht you're wishing for? Why don't you join Rush in celebrating the coming depression- all those homeless people to kick around- must be a thrill for you.

[GeorgeGist]

135. Ending capitalism would be a great beginning.

Afterall, GREED is it's CORE principle.

[BluePatriot21]

140. The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire!

We don't need no water let the motherf'er burn.

Wall Street Casino is a joke robbing the people of money hand over fist, from manipulating the price of oil up and down to every other scheme bundled into a mutual fund. Let it all burn and blow away. I want it to rain investors from the rooftops then I can crack a cold one and feel like karma does exist.

[paulsby]

143. misguided rant imo

the dow is a PROXY

the dow is an index of 30 industrial stocks. as a general proxy, it says something about the performance of, and confidence in (stocks are forward looking instruments) basic industrial giants in america.

i make money from trading dow futures (full disclosure here).

the thing is not to reify the dow.

but the stock market is a wonderful thing. it is a very democratic institution (race, creed, gender, etc. don't matter when you are a # in the order book), and it allows companies to help raise capital, and it allows ordinary citizens to participate in the success (or failure) of the companies of their choice.

that is a wonderful opportunity. if you have enough money to buy even one share of stock, or make a minimum purchase in a mutual fund, you can participate in OWNERSHIP of some of the greatest companies ever known to man.

and YOU can vote with YOUR money. don't like companies like altria (phillip morris)? don't invest in them.

it's very empowering, and a pretty amazing thing when you think about it.

a booming stock market helps a lot more people than you realize. individual participation in the market (whether through retirement accounts, personal investment accounts, etc. etc.) is much higher than it was 30 yrs ago for instance. it is not just the rich and powerful. it is a striking cross section of americans.

[Grinchie]

145. Just Boycot the market until meaningful regulations are implemented

Until then, let the truly brainwashed feed off themselves.

[Hubert Flottz]

146. K&R

They made their bed and ours too.

[freemarketer6]

148. If the Dow drops much more, you won't have to worry about

posting on boards, going to work, or maybe even living... Markets are now causing the upcoming depression. When you're eating Cheerios for dinner re-write your cavalier comment on the Dow.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

158. What About Middle Class/Working Class Folks?

What about middle class/working class folks who invested in the stock market or had a portion of their salaries invested in the stock markets by their employers?

They're getting killed.

I was talking to this retired gentlemen from Chrysler. He was a painter. I asked him if he was worried about his pension if Chrysler goes bankrupt. He said he wasn't because his pension was administered by the UAW.

Where do you think the UAW invested their pension funds?


I could give a rip about the Dow but I have sympathy for the average Joe and Jane who are losing their life's savings in it.

[TBF]

160. What we are seeing is that free market and trickle down don't work so hot

for most people. Crashes are inevitable in the cycles of capitalism. We can talk about moving beyond capitalism, that would be a start.

[dem mba]

163. so firms should all be privately held?

do we really want corporations to be held unaccountable to stockholders? what if a small business wants to expand with a new product and can't get a line of credit from any banks? if they can't issue stocks to raise capital they're stuck. growth grinds to a halt. innovation is stifled. this is bad, bad news friends.

this kos post just flat out doesn't understand the benefit that stocks/equity can create for a firm. they are viewing the DJIA strictly from an investor's perspective and not from a firm's.

ideally, firms that are well run and have the best products and services get rewarded by the market with higher stock prices, which creates more equity, which can then go back into capital goods, which can make the firm even more competitive and profitable. or the excess can go back and reward the investors for their wise decision to back the firm. this is in essence a great system to rewards winners and penalize losers (firms that make bad decisions).

there are and always will be flaws in the system, and it will always be gamed, but no one forces you to play the market. no one forces you into a 401K, to my knowledge. those are your choices, and if you take it upon yourself to learn the rules, you can profit greatly. if you manage a diversified portfolio of not just stocks, but bonds and CDs and mutual funds and money market funds and update it regularly, you can get a higher return than you could in just a savings account. that goes for carpenters and garbagemen as it does for brokers and execs.

people grumbling about the stock market now are only doing so because it's down. Well, now stocks are undervalued and it's a good time to be shrewd and invest wisely. The system will correct itself, and indexes will rise in time (maybe 2010?). The fact that there is so much money to potentially be made is what keeps it moving up. The potential for high returns is ultimately what will get this economy moving again, given all the risks still lurking in the shadows of the major banks' balance sheets.

[Hubert Flottz]

165. "F*ck the Dow"

It's no good, it just lays there!

[happygoluckytoyou]

167. A PERFECT SYSTEM... A PERFECT STORM --> --> --> --> --> --> --> -->

The PRICE OF DIAMONDS went UP UP UP ..... is that GOOD OR BAD...... well... it is good if you own more DIAMONDS that your share

WE ALL OWN a piece of the "stock market", in the sense that the market is a "sense of valuation" of corporation health and futures....
in times when corps grow---> this is GREAT...

OF COURSE... if you are a 20-year-old college graduate, with marketable skills, BUT YOU OWN NO STOCK....
you probably don't really give a damn---> and the fact that HOUSE PRICES ARE CRASHING..... is GREAT FOR YOU

------------------it is ALL very personal.... the price of gold, the price of money (interest), the job market, and fixed incomes....

INFLATION is great if YOU HAVE MASSIVE DEBT...... terrible if you have MASSIVE STORES OF CASH IN BANKS......

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this is class warfare-----> just because you own 2 shares of GM does NOT mean you care about the market

<<<<<<<<<<<<<< you might have 99% of your wealth in THE STRENGTH OF YOUR BACK.... in which case the job market means a lot more to you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you might have ALL of your wealth in SOCIAL SECURITY..... in which case NO INFLATION means a lot to you

FOR 8 YEARS the concept of PUMPING MONEY INTO THE "BUSINESS WORLD" IS GOOD FOR EVERYONE........ sorry...... we are 500 million stories...
and only SOME of us are locked into THAT MARKET

[Ron Green]

172. "...the heat we've been living in for decades."

I suggest that the "American Dream," even a modest one of two cars, a boat, a lake cabin, and college for the kids, never was sustainable in the least, and the Middle Class was built on such a house of cards that the profligate greed of the Wall Street types only slightly hurried the demise of our system.

Colonizing other planets? Hmm... considering our bodies are part of Earth's substance, I sure have my doubts about that.

[kegler14]

175. I was hoping to send my child to college and retire before I die.

What a greedhead.

[happygoluckytoyou]

184. I was hoping to send my child to college and retire RATHER than dying... dream big!

[zeemike]

177. interestingly enough all usury was against the law

in the bible.
The stock market and all of it's derivatives would have been considered usury and illegal under the laws of Moses and in early Israel.
Do you think that they had a point?
Can you imagine how people with a lot of money could live if they could not let their money do their hustling for them?
They might be forced to spend their money away or invest it in a real business or enterprise to make gains.

[Beavker]

188. Usury...used to be a dirty word.

Those that made their money from not providing a service (other than investing their money!) used to be frowned upon. Then we realized the American Dream. Not to work hard for something, but to work as little as possible to get or gain as much as possible. That's what it's come to.

[OwnedByFerrets]

182. Thank you for posting what I have been feeling for a long, long time.

[Beavker]

186. I hate the 2ndary Market

Speculation and judgements made on a few disputable facts and the whims of rich people.

I'd like to see investments be directly with companies, basically loaning them money, if they make money you do. If Steve Jobs is ill, I don't think my Apple stock should drop because these few wealthy and their drones on the floor think that it will 'eventually' hurt the company.

He's still alive, they are still making the products people want. If they sell them and make money, it should make no difference. (Corporate Bonds and Preferreds I guess).

We see that unless you own a majority, you really don't have a lot of say. Do you think the shareholders for these large Banks like seeing their CEO's/Presidents walk away with millions in bonus money? No. The board makes that decision. Good luck getting board members that would think like the shareholders.

Most the shareholders are wealthy anyway, unless you, like me, have a pitance of something invested in them via a minute fraction of a Mutual Fund with is only a small fraction of my other measly portfolios.

Basically. Commodity based, real earnings and profit sharing with companies, or municipalities that you loan/invest money in. Not Vegas style heresay fed rumor mill oriented trading determining our net wealth.

[muryan]

194. Greed die?

Sure... right after anger, fear, or any other negative driving force of human nature.

[ooglymoogly]

197. A long long time ago when I was a very naive young man;

In one of those Forrest Gump moments in my life and as happenstance would have it, I knew a few of the 4 or 5 biggest banking names in the wall st game; But one in particular. I knew them through their children who were my age and living in a land far far away where ex patriots stuck together like family. The one I am speaking of, the patriarch of one of these families, found out I was playing around in the stock market; We had several long winded and candid discussions and these are some of the things I learned from this extraordinary man; He told me the stock market is so designed to be so complicated the casual observer can only figure out the part meant for him to figure out; He told me the stock market is designed for very powerful men in banking families who can and do effect world events to their favor, who can manipulate it into a sure bet for themselves; Insiders who know when to get in and when to get out. Men who can investigate companies and know what is true and what is false and can make or break them and how, what was coming down the pike in world affairs could effect that company; Who was sniffing around in the weeds to gobble up that company, Who needed financing, etc; That the market would most likely not work for me unless I was miraculously lucky and that it was not only a big gamble for me, it was in the long run a sure loser for me. He considered the 95% of investors who fit this category, no more than suckers playing an endless shell game with master slight of hand shell gamers; Unless that investor was investing in a field he was on top of and was a player in that field; "You are an architect", he said; "Invest in houses, buildings, things that you know about".


For decades, in sickness and in health, I have watched the market ebb and flow and with each ebb, fall, invariably during or shortly after a pug administration taking the casual investor down a notch or two or to the bottom. I have not owned a stock since those days; Though I believe the stock market to be an excellent concept, if it were operated by honest folks. That dream is a fairy tale. The stock market is as crooked as a snake and if given the chance will rob us all blind, as evidenced by the last 8 years and the great depression and the depression before that.

The TARP bailout is more of the same on steroids. It is the biggest fraud and robbery in history. The banks that have been rumored into failure should not be allowed to fail but be taken over by our government until the banking system is sound again, with strict safeguards and regulation period! and those who caused the failure, be it by rumor or manipulation, put in jail.

But then the ruling class thinks we are all too dumb to figure it all out; That this is just a replay of the great depression where a few big banking families ended up owning everything and are now playing the same astronomically lucrative record over again caring not a whit, who it hurts or destroys.

[Deja Q]

198. Nope. Greed shot first.