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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:06 AM
Original message
We live better than most kings and queens thru-out the centuries
yet I am worried about a palpable sense of denial about the current economic situation.

I have gone in and read portions of the Stimulus Plan I think I might be most informed about.

The language agitates me. It is written to tell banks and creditors what they will get if they cooperate; it does not say what the average person can do to help themselves.

It seems like the people who have the most money and over-priced houses will be able to go thru foreclosures at financial advantage to themselves. The restrictions on people who are really struggling are perposterous, at best. Noone expects to lose a home, a marriage, or have a severe health care crisis. But it happens, and these are the predominate reasons people get behind on their bills.

Shouldn't Congress have just rescinced the Bush bankruptcy law completely, and written legislation that would have truly been transparent.

And who is the fuck-head from the mid-west that Boehner referred to as having singularly written this assanine bill. I would have thought dozens of lawyers would have been on it, and, even being lawyers, could have been a little more thoughtful.

Denny Crain.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. The stimulus isn't for you, me or US.
The stimulus is OF,BY and FOR the corporations, just like everything else. HOPE and CHANGE are just more of the same.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
2. Many details of the plan won't be released until Mar. 5th, but as I understand the bill so far,
it is intended to save the homes of people who are current on their mtg. but trapped in a high rate or variable rate mtg. but can't get a refi because the value of their home has fallen. As those variable mtg's reset over the next months or years, THEY will continue to make the foreclosure problem worse, and this plan sill at least stabelize that market.

There really isn't much if anything that can be done for people who lost their job, or went through a divorce other than an outright "handout" and I don't see that happening.

As far as the bankruptcy laws go, anyone who is making $39,0000/yr or less still qualifies for the old laws. If you were making more than that but lost your job, obviously you aren't making too much anymore!
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. change you can believe in.....if you are wealthy nt
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
4. Well, in many ways we do not live better than the kings and
queens of old. We have lots better food, and warmer houses, certainly, and communications and transportation are far better. We live a lot longer, and suffer from fewer diseases. But all that's techology.

What we do not have is a castle full of servants. The kings and queens didn't shovel their own sidewalks, I guarantee. I did that this morning. They didn't cook their own meals or clean up after them. They didn't do the laundry or clean their homes, either.

You can't go back in time, technologically, but you can examine the day to day lives of us and those royal parasites.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
5. Not really.
Check out Louis' digs:




And while perhaps the biggest, the kings and queens of major European and Asian nations, and the lesser nobility of those nations as well. managed quite sumptuous lives, in huge palaces, attended to by platoons of servants, wanted for nothing, and while they were not decked out in the latest techno-mall-gadgets, lived and continue to live a lifestyle far beyond our common lot.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. sorry
you ar dumb. they lived in drafty, non-lighted, non-heated shells of buildings, made to look magnificent, as they should have been. But

Never mind.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. you are talking about standard of living. And, yes. The industrialized world has higher
Edited on Sat Feb-21-09 10:40 AM by KittyWampus
standard of living than our historical antecedents.

Edit- we HAVE managed to muck up our environment though.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. no. no, no,
that is not what I meant.

Go back and read Dickens. We are the luckliest fucks that have ever lived.

In terms of comfort, freedom from oombat, clothing emenities....

You are over-intelliualizing.

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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Here is another awful royal shack.


The site of the Forbidden City was situated on the Imperial city during the Mongol Yuan Dynasty. Upon the establishment of the Ming Dynasty, the Hongwu Emperor moved the capital from Beijing in the north to Nanjing in the south, and ordered that the Yuan palaces be razed. When his son Zhu Di became the Yongle Emperor, he moved the capital back to Beijing, and construction began in 1406 of what would become the Forbidden City.<4>
Construction lasted 15 years, and required more than a million workers.<6> Material used include whole logs of precious Phoebe zhennan wood (Chinese: ??; pinyin: n?nm?) found in the jungles of south-western China, and large blocks of marble from quarries near Beijing.<7> The floors of major halls were paved with "golden bricks" (Chinese: ??; pinyin: jinzhuan), specially baked paving bricks from Suzhou.<6>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_City
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. Huh? They had both light and heat.
Just not central heating. Yes sure we have technology they didn't, but we do not live 'like kings and queens' let alone 'better than kings and queens' just because of technology. And who is 'we' anyhow? The people of this planet mostly live in dire poverty.

Statistical Information on the Palace of Versailles
Surface area of roofing 11 hectares
Floor space 51,210 m2
Number of windows 2,153
Number of rooms 700
Staircases 67
Paintings in the museum?s collection 6,000
Drawings in museum?s collection 1,500
Engravings in museum?s collection 15,000
Sculptures in museum?s collection 2,100
Pieces of furniture and objets d?art 5,000

Pretty much the same as my house, except I have a better furnace.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. OK, never mind. you're not stupid but you want to make a stupid point. bye bye
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. You made a statement that was indefensible
and now you have gone all huffy when people here have pointed out that your opening line: "We live better than most kings and queens thru-out the centuries" is simply not true. We have technology that the monarchs of earlier eras didn't have, that much is true, but the leap from there to 'We live better than most kings and queens thru-out the centuries' cannot be supported by actual facts.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. so, what are the "actual" facts.?
I am not trying to be huffy; I am seriously concerned at how immune we have become to how good we really have it, and maybe you should look at some pixs of people standing in food lines in "The Great Depression."


Get a Grip. We could be there any day now.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. We have people lined up for food and shelter right now.
But you are attempting to change the topic here. I questioned your assertion that we live better than kings and queens. We don't. All we have is technology that didn't exist 200 years ago, but the lifestyles of the nobility then, and of our global elites today, are far beyond what we peasants have. I don't know exactly what grip I'm supposed to get here. I am not living in a sumptuous palace with an army of servants to see to my every need and I don't know anybody who is. Despite all this technological luxury that you claim makes our lifestyles better than kings and queens, most of us are simply one financial disaster away from the sumptuous lifestyle of living in a car scrounging for food. I agree that Louis XIV couldn't manage to live in a car despite his vast wealth and power, but that somehow does not rise to my standards of 'living better than kings and queens'.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. exactly, you moron.
and how is the rest of DU expect to relate to you?

What medication are you on, anyway
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. hmmm
somebody is a bit cranky today. Project much?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. what's with the insults?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. You are right. They had no indoor plumbing. Didn't take baths
Medicine was primitive.

IMO the main thing was dentistry. They lost their teeth and could be in pain a lot, due to dental issues that today are taken care of except for the really poor.

Not to mention the religious and social restrictions.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. We r in deep trouble,
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Gee, they sound like our present Wall Street and Banking rip offs
Edited on Sat Feb-21-09 10:36 AM by olegramps
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. Indeed.
Our planet's billionaires pattern their lives after the great royals of the past.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
8. Has anyone checked out the healthcare items in this legislation?
Edited on Sat Feb-21-09 10:41 AM by Subdivisions
And, why were we told that we needed to get this legislation through ASAP, so fast lawmakers didn't even have time to read it, ala the Patriot Act? Yet, once the legislation was passed last Friday, it was so urgent that President Obama went out of town for the weekend and didn't sign it until Monday evening! WTF???

AND, we were PROMISED that all legislation would be posted to a website for five days before being signed into law so that Americans could have time to look it over and express their support or criticisms. Why didn't that happen???
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I am sad. I think our President trusts people too much. eom.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
11. No we don't
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. huh? what planet are you living on?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Earth. You might find it when you come tumbling down.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. never mind. good luck to you when your earth comes tumbling on top of you.
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Stuart G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
28. Three things make us live better than any kings,queens, super rich before 1870
Edited on Sat Feb-21-09 11:29 AM by Stuart G
1.Flush Toilets (running water in general
2. Central Heat.
3. Electricity.

They ain't much...But Louie XIV of France with all his gold and big house never had any of em.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Versaille had hot and cold running water.
The ancient Romans had running water and indoor plumbing. This does not require advanced technology.

"The earliest identifiable flushing toilets have been found in the ruins of the palace of King Minos on the island of Crete, circa 1500 B.C. Rain water or water from cisterns traveled though conduits built into the wall to flush away the waste from a master bathroom presumably belonging to the monarch, as well as several other toilets located within palace walls."
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_indoor_plumbing_inve...

These sorts of luxuries were of course limited to the nobility.

I'll give you central heat and electricity.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Actually I won't give you central heating either.
History

Cities in the northern Roman Empire used central heating systems, conducting air heated by furnaces through empty spaces under the floors and out of pipes in the walls ? a system known as a hypocaust.<1> A similar system of central heating was used in ancient Korea, where it is known as ondol. It is thought that the ondol system dates back to the Koguryo or Three Kingdoms (37 BC-AD 668) period when excess heat from stoves were used to warm homes.

The hypocaust continued to be used in the Mediterranean region during late Antiquity and by the Umayyad caliphate. By the 12th century, Muslim engineers in Syria introduced an improved central heating system, where heat travelled through underfloor pipes from the furnace room, rather than through a hypocaust. This central heating system was widely used in bath-houses throughout the medieval Islamic world.<2>

In the 13th century, the Cistercian monks revived central heating in Christian Europe using river diversions combined with indoor wood-fired furnaces. The well-preserved Royal Monastery of Our Lady of the Wheel (founded 1202) on the Ebro River in the Aragon region of Spain provides an excellent example of such an application.

By about 1700 Russian engineers had started designing hydrologically based systems for central heating. The Summer Palace (1710?1714) of Peter the Great in Saint Petersburg provides the best extant example. Slightly later, in 1716, came the first use of water in Sweden to distribute heat in buildings. Martin Triewald, a Swedish engineer, used this method for a greenhouse at Newcastle upon Tyne. Jean Simon Bonnemain (1743?1830), a French architect,<3> introduced the technique to industry on a cooperative, at Ch?teau du P?cq, near Paris.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_heating
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. They aint much....
very funny.
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SmileyRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
31. I clean my own gutters
I doubt Henry the Eighth did.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. do you clean the poop out of your toilet every day?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
32. Average age at death of 3 generations of Henry VII's descendants: 21
I was looking at a bit of history, and noticed they all seemed to die off like flies. Being slightly obsessive, I compiled the ages at which Henry VII (of England)'s children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren died (that's people like Henry VIII, Elizabeth I and Mary Queen of Scots):

Henry VII: died age 55
His wife, Elizabeth of York: died in childbirth age 37
7 children, average age 23
12 grandchildren, average age 22
10 great grandchildren, average age 18

Of those, only 2 (both great grandchildren) died violent deaths - both executed. If they'd lived full lives, it'd bring that generation up to 23 or so. Everyone else was from 'natural causes'.
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geiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. exactly..,
and what of "natural causes."

We are insane in this country, to think we are entitled to "a life."
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
36. locking
At the request of the OP.
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