How do you feel as an American citizen about the PATRIOT ACT?

[bobthedrummer]

I feel that it should be abolished-it never should have been passed into law to begin with. There should be prosecution of it's authors, along with its congressional sponsorship. That's for openers.

How do you feel about the PATRIOT ACT, DU?

[flvegan]

1. Just another shameful Bush initiative that I find pathetic we haven't revoked yet.

[aquart]

2. I want every vile word revoked.

If there's anything necessary, vote on it separately.

[bobthedrummer]

12. On this we agree...

[HowHasItComeToThis]

42. JUST ANOTHER BUSH OUTRAGE

[arcadian]

3. I think it fucking sucks.

It's Orwellian, should be repealed and it's authors jailed.

[kirby]

4. There are a few good things...

But many many power grabs. Anything passed without anyone understanding it during a crisis time should be very suspect. It created a false choice of 'Giving up Freedom to be Safe'.

[MrModerate]

5. In the absence of laws against legislative malpractice . . .

The authors (squirrely schmucks on congressional staffs) and the act-passers (Congress) are probably safe.

But yes, it should be invalidated by subsequent legislation and, to the degree that leaves loose ends dangling, new legislation crafted that 1) is useful and 2) isn't unconstitutional and an assault on the most basic principles on which the country was founded.

[FrenchieCat]

6. An act that will be looked at again,

as soon as the New Prez has gotten a chance to get out from under the "What-have-you-done-for-me-since-2-minutes-ago?" pile-on and breathe!

[DCKit]

55. In case you missed this most excellent, recurring thread by GinaMarie:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5071365

President Obama does more in a day than * did in any two months.

[Still Sensible]

7. It was a political stunt that few had the balls to say no to! n/t

[bobthedrummer]

9. Only one US Senator, Russ Feingold, had the balls to suggest reading it...

and let's not forget that there was hysteria in the Beltway then...

[undergroundpanther]

8. I hate it

Because it is so easy to abuse power through it.Seems"natl.security is the biggest handy dandy excuse for U.S, tyrants authoritarians,the corrupt,thieves,and stupid politicians who fear embarrassment to cover up anything and spy on us all.

[bobthedrummer]

10. The PATRIOT ACT opened the door to that neocon&neolib PRIVATIZATION

scheme, especially of the entire federal government granting PRIVATE MILITARY and SECURITY "contracts"-which should be used for indictments...

[HowHasItComeToThis]

43. RIGHT ON TARGET

[leftstreet]

11. I wanna see Obama burn it on live teevee n/t

[snot]

13. It's unpatriotic!

[bobthedrummer]

15. It has been found to be unconstitutional-I did grimly laugh at your subjectline, snot.

[Political Heretic]

14. Honestly, its difficult to remember to be outraged by it because its never affected me or anyone

I know. All I have to go on is principle, and in principle I oppose such a useless piece of trash. At the same time, my focus has been on other issues that are directly effecting myself and people I know like health care, poverty, education and this wretched economy.

[bobthedrummer]

17. I know you are mistaken, Political Heretic-seriously mistaken

you might be on someone's "list" yourself.

Here's what the ACLU was advising about the PATRIOT ACT back in November 2003
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/resources/17343res20031114.html

[Political Heretic]

21. I don't define being on a "list" as having a tangible affect.

I'm not saying its not wrong. I'm a former ACLU employee that when back to school to get my masters. I understand how and why its wrong.

I'm simply an open, honest thinker - and I acknowledge that though wrong, it the act hasn't altered or impacted my day to day life or the life of anyone I know at all, thus its more difficult to remember how important it is to fight the good fight than say, when it comes to an issue such as health care, or war in Iraq, or poverty - all of which affect me or someone I know directly every day.

[Idealism]

19. You do know they have every phone call ever made on a cellphone, right?

[Political Heretic]

24. I don' t use a cell phone, and see reply above.

I've used my cell phone once in the last six weeks, the schedule a hair cut. See my reply above.

[Idealism]

28. It may not only be cell phone calls, is the problem

No one knows exactly what the NSA has recorded, but that infamous room in the ATT building can sure hold a lot of information.

[bobthedrummer]

30. Not just NSA, add on the "contracted" private companies, the FBI, local law and all the rest...

Then consider InfraGard

InfraGard
http://www.infragard.net/

[Political Heretic]

32. I'm well aware of this. You're missing my point.

[bobthedrummer]

38. I'm not the only one that thinks you're mistaken-we all "get your point"--we think you're affected.

[Political Heretic]

48. Speak for yourself. No need falsely claim to speak for anyone else

The "everyone else things your wrong too" argument lost its power when we all left grade school. So, you can spare me the appeal to the masses.

My point is not that the act isn't wrong, I know better than a lot of people out there just how wrong it is. At the same time, I'm simply observing how difficult it is to maintain an appropriate level of vigilance about the issue sometimes, in a climate with so many crisis issues more directly impacting me and those around me in far more immediately tangible ways.

The trouble with the Patriot Act is that you only really feel the effects in your day to day life once "they" come for you. In the meantime, next to nothing changes. That's why its so difficult to keep sustained public outrage about issues such as this, and sadly - the longer it goes, the less people care. Because they observe, just as I have, that it doesn't appear to be impacting how they live their lives.

You say "we think you're affected" - but you are looking at it from an outside standpoint. From the perspective of my day to day existence, nothing has tangibly changed. And that's the problem and the difficulty with staying vigilant. There are so many other issues that are changing my day to day life in directly tangible ways nearly every day! Those, almost out of necessity, tend to attract my focus first.

Really, the lament actually about just how many things are wrong in our country and how challenging it is to try to keep all of them "the priority."

Now, having said that, *cough* get the fuck off my back.

[bvar22]

58. LOL!

You think the Patriot Act hasn't affected YOU personally!
Where did you find you little imaginary, insulated microcosm?

Do you realize that every injustice committed under the Patriot Act was done in your name, supported by your representatives, and financed by your money?

So what if your Middle Eastern looking neighbor was denied a seat on an airplane, or even "disappeared"....it didn't affect YOU personally, so no big deal?

Have you EVER attended an Anti-WAR rally?
If so, your picture is "on file".

Do you post on DU...?....

[Political Heretic]

69. None of these things altered my day today.

This is my point.

I got up, went to my job, carried on my business just as I do every single other day without any impedance.

This is where you're just not getting my point. First of all my point is NOT: the patriot act is OK or not a big deal because I don't notice it daily. My point is NOT: the patriot act has no actual effect on me. My point is that the effect is not IMMEDIATELY TANGIBLE!!!! Which means it is quite a challenge to keep up the vigil and the focus when so many other equally important issues ARE changing my daily life directly.

The point is an observation that this is one of the difficulties of mobilizing people to resist civil rights abuses - because civil right are typically something that you don't "feel" until you are in a crisis where you need them. They are easy to take for granted ... that would be my point.

Not sure why this is so hard for you to get through your head. I'm convinced half the people here don't even try to think critically any more. They just skim a sentence or two and then jump up and down rehashing their standard lines...

We aren't even disagreeing, dumbass.

[bvar22]

72. Sure DID alter your life today.

You're working your ass off trying to convince everybody that the Patriot Act did NOT alter your life.
You DO see the paradox?

[Political Heretic]

76. Oh please. Is that all you have left now?

:eyes:

I write here every day.

[bvar22]

77. No. I'll leave you with this:

In post #69, you said:

"because civil right are typically something that you don't "feel" until you are in a crisis where you need them. They are easy to take for granted ."

Change your statement to the 1st person singular, and I'll agree with you.

Here, let me do it for you:

...because civil right are typically something that you I don't "feel" until you are I am in a crisis where you I need them. They are easy <for me> to take for granted.

After reading your posts on this thread, the corrected version would be more accurate.
But don't get alarmed. You have plenty of company on DU these days.

[Political Heretic]

79. No fucking shit sherlock. This was my point the ENTIRE TIME.

Genius!

[bobthedrummer]

61. Kiss my American ass and stop disrupting by whining about being "misunderstood" eom

[Political Heretic]

70. Stop misconstruing my point and I'll be happy to do so.

It's that simple.

[treestar]

80. Merely that it hasn't affected you personally is meaningless

Maybe you have nothing to hide. The point is, it could be.

[lordsummerisle]

16. I liked it when Kucinich

was asked why he voted against it. He replied, "because I read it."

[Mnemosyne]

18. It is un-Constitutional, a crime.. n/t

[bobthedrummer]

20. I hope to see Viet Dinh serve 25 years or so for his contribution to it...

[Mnemosyne]

56. In Gitmo. n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

22. It's ruined the meaning of the word patriot for starters.

I hope that someone in Congress is working on revocation right now.

[Initech]

23. Get rid of it. It's unconstitutional, a huge violation of our rights.

[dmr]

25. Get rid of it! And speaking of the Pat Act

each time I heard a Repub whine about not having enough time to read the Stim Bill, I remember the Pat Act springing out of nowhere to be immediately voted upon - giving Democrats little to no time to read that very long piece of shit.

Senator Kucinich voted against it, and when asked why, he responded: "because I read it!"

[bobthedrummer]

31. Congressman Kucinich, dmr, Congressman Kucinich...

[dmr]

34. LOL, I knew that! My brain farts when I get riled!

:) Thanks for the correction!

[bobthedrummer]

35. I've short-circuited many times during the past 8 years too

:hug:

[northofdenali]

26. Haven't read any part of the thread yet -

here's my response -

REMIND ME OF NAZI GERMANY, ANYBODY?

Ditto "Homeland Security".

[bobthedrummer]

27. It is like some of the final "legislation" of the doomed Weimar Republic to me...

[SergeyDovlatov]

29. It is a horror and must be repealed!

NOW!

[ConsAreLiars]

33. I screamed at my Dem Senators to oppose it.

They both proved themselves to be useless, on the other side, stupid, ignorant, easily manipulated, or just cowards. Pick one. Or maybe several.

(edit to add a small bit)

[bobthedrummer]

39. Washington could use Russ Feingold-but he's ours! Amen!

[ConsAreLiars]

45. I'd prefer Jim McDermott, my representative in the house, who voted no

and is better than Feingold on some issues.

Here's his vote: http://www.votesmart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?cs_id=8289&can_id=27128

And here's his record: http://www.votesmart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?cs_id=8289&can_id=27128

[grasswire]

36. repeal it, and gut the DHS too

It's time and we have the votes.

[bobthedrummer]

37. Who does Michael Chertoff remind you of, grasswire?

:scared:

[grasswire]

40. a cadaver (eom)

[bobthedrummer]

41. deadman walking...

[Golden Raisin]

44. I feel that the Founding Fathers

turned in their graves when it was introduced and passed. I will always revere and respect Russ Feingold for his public opposition, especially when it would have been much easier given the hysteria and fear of the moment, to cave like all the others did. Naming it the "Patriot" Act smacked of the same sneering, arrogant presumption that permeated the entire BushCo regime. They also had this creepy, disturbing, quasi-Nazi thing going: "Patriot" Act; "Homeland" Security.

[Undercurrent]

46. Disgusting and frightening

Most of it is blatantly unconstitutional.

[Solly Mack]

47. Same as always. Get rid of it.

[Heidi]

49. Embarrassed.

My husband, an upstanding Swiss citizen, has to submit fingerprints in order to travel to the US with me. Ridiculous.

[Greyhound]

50. Repealed in toto. n/t

[mmonk]

51. No patriot would support it.

That's why they named it that.

[madokie]

52. burn the sum'betch

and the bastards who voted for it. Investigate, try and then after a guilty verdict is returned hang the pertrators in an open to the public show, a show of what happens to treasonous bastards and bitches. Sorry 'bout the language as these are the lesser of the words I could use for describing them. Make damn sure the length of the rope is long enough to allow decapitation too. Thats how I feel about this travesty of justice.

[TheWatcher]

53. Don't ask that question to any of the Congressmen who voted for it.

They didn't even bother to read it.

[pleah]

54. Every time I hear the words Patriot Act or Homeland Security

I think fascism.

[bobthedrummer]

62. Then there are those Neighborhood Watch groups and, for the chosen few, police "ridealongs"-that's

a stealthy Gestapo/Politburo police state infrastructure, it isn't the role of local law enforcement in a democracy.

[benEzra]

57. Wrong, unconstitutional, and abjectly misnamed. Repeal it ASAP.

And also do away with the secret terrah blacklists that the neocons and DLC'ers love so well.

[ThomWV]

59. It is a national disgrace.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. It's the American version of Sharia law. Both are based on fear.

[NeedleCast]

63. Its Double Plus Good

That's my official statement at least...

[indepat]

64. Another cleverly disingenuous 'puke moniker for something that is the exact opposite, to wit, the

Anti-Patriot Act would have been much more accurate and descriptive. :P

[Ikonoklast]

65. Same as I feel about the passing of The Enabling Act.

Gave the fascists the cover they needed to subvert all branches of the government.

[bobthedrummer]

66. An apt comparison imo Ikonoklast...

[wroberts189]

67. Naming it that ...it was the deepest of insults to all Americans

Dead and alive.

And it was deliberate.

And is it not strange they had it all ready to go after 9/11 ?

[bobthedrummer]

68. Considering the source, yes it was the darkest of "humor". n/t

[timtom]

71. It is a horrible abomination of the first order!

It never should have happened!

Repeal it NOW!

[FiveGoodMen]

73. It's name is THE ultimate example of irony.

Treason act would fit it much better.

It should be overturned in its entirety.

And those who wrote it should be behind bars for life.

[leftofthedial]

74. it is outrageous, shameful and anti-American

I feel angry and betrayed.

[L0oniX]

75. Patriotism is for fools.

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism–how passionately I hate them!

– Albert Einstein

[AlCzervik]

78. Those willing to give up liberty for security deserve niether.

[defendandprotect]

81. I feel the way I should feel - and the way the Democratic Party should feel . . .

BETRAYED -- !!!!

[Hekate]

82. Between the USA PATRIOT Act I & Act 2 for the first time in my life I became afraid of my government

... Which I imagine was pretty much what the Bush Cabal had in mind. Nixon enraged me, but I was not frightened of Uncle Sam. It took George W. Bush and company to do that.

As for what to do about it: completely dismantle it and start over. Ferret out all the bits of Patriot Act 2 that were distributed among countless other bills and eliminate them.

If that's not feasible, I most heartily recommend re-drafting the mission of every agency distorted by or started under these Acts. Restore my Constitution and Bill of Rights, dammit. I miss them.

Hekate

[Vincardog]

83. it should be abolished-it never should have been passed into law to begin with.