A clue for the clueless, Sexual Orientation isn't about sexual acts...

[Solon]

its about sexual ATTRACTION and DESIRE, period.

Even I, a clueless straight guy knows this much.

Homosexuals are attracted to people of the same sex as themselves.

Bisexuals are attracted to people of both sexes.

Heterosexuals are attracted to people of the opposite sex rather than their own sex.

Its laid out, pretty plain and simple, however, human sexuality isn't nearly this simple.

But, just to make things clear, Sexual Orientation has no relation to what type of relationships people form, whether monogamous or polygamous, open or closed.

Neither do bisexuals "magically" turn straight when with an opposite sex partner, or gay with a same sex partner, because their attraction to both sexes doesn't change, and that's what makes them bisexual.

Oh, and will people stop with the whole, "I don't care what people do in the bedroom" BS and its many, many, different wordings, Sexual Orientation involves much more than sex, would straight people reduce their own committed relationships to just fucking? Same sex relationships are no different than opposite sex ones, you date, fall in love, share a first kiss, hold hands, have sex, move in together, send flowers/other gifts to each other, write bad and sappy love poetry to each other(of course, this could just be me in my relationships. :)) etc.

Of course, not all of this has to be in this order or happen at all, but I hope some people get the idea.

I hope this educated some of the clueless, and if you are offended for being called clueless, well, I can think of stronger words, if you like, but this was the least offensive I could think of.

[LostinVA]

1. I cannot k&r this enough -- great post!

[BlooInBloo]

2. Really? My sexual orientation has a very large and direct relation to what behavior I undertake...

I don't see what problem is caused by that fact.

[donco6]

4. Really?

Go figger :eyes:

[Solon]

5. What part of your sexual orientation makes you want to be on top? n/t

[BlooInBloo]

6. Heh. I didn't say my orientation had an effect on every last detail of my behavior.

I just don't understand what problem the OP is trying to solve by divorcing attraction from behavior.

There's nothing wrong with the attraction. There's nothing wrong with the behavior. What's the motivation behind saying there's no relation between the two?

[Solon]

9. But what is different about the behavior, that is what mystifies me...

seriously, considering that opposite sex couples have "done it all" so to speak, what do same sex couples do that is different?

[BlooInBloo]

10. Um, huh?

I haven't the slightest idea what same sex couples do that's different.

huh?

[Solon]

13. Then please explain your first post, since it directly contradicts this one. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

16. redux: Um, huh?

I don't see the contradiction. Lil help?

[Solon]

21. OK, explain what behavior is directly related to your sexual orientation then.

[BlooInBloo]

24. Behavior: Trying to get into girls' pants. Orientation: turned on by girls...

They're directly related.

I had assumed there was an analogous strong and direct relation for people of other orientations. Perhaps not.

I still don't see the motivation behind denying the existence of such a strong and direct relation between orientation and behavior.


EDIT: And thanks for giving me a question I can understand! Makes answering soooo much easier!

[Solon]

29. Another question, how is that any different than the desire I mentioned above?

Trying to get in a girls' pants is a desire for a need you have dictated by your sexual orientation, what I'm trying to point out is that people who are attracted to the same sex have that same desire just with their own gender. So the behavior, in general terms, would be trying to get into someone's pants, your orientation determines the sex of the person whose pants you want to get into.

[BlooInBloo]

32. Yah... you've lost me again.

[Solon]

36. Here, let's see if I can simplify things for you...

Trying to get in a man's pants and you are male=You are a gay guy

Trying to get in a man's pants and you are female=You are a straight girl

Trying to get in a woman's pants and you are female=You are a gay girl

Trying to get in a woman's pants and you are male=You are a straight guy

Trying to get in a either sex's pants and you are male=You are a bi guy

Trying to get in a either sex's pants and you are female=You are a bi girl

Now, do you notice any commonality with all the items on this list? Since I used the same language you prefer, I figured it would be easier for you to understand.

[BlooInBloo]

37. Sure. I see both what is common and what is different. So what's the problem with any of them?

[Solon]

39. There are no problems with any of them...

Jesus, are you always this dense? At this point in time, I fear your skull is in danger of collapse from the singularity that formed where you brain used to be.

[BlooInBloo]

40. Aw shit. And here I was all happy to discover that we don't disagree.

:cry:

Thanks for clearly displaying 6 strong and direct relations between orientation and behavior, though!


EDIT: Ooops - 6. Numbers really aren't my strong suit.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlooInBloo]

33. I assumed they didn't. I don't understand why anyone cares, though.

This is all so confusing for me. :cry:

[LostinVA]

34. They do the same thing with different equipment

:eyes:

By the replies in this thread, Solon's OP was desperately needed.

:eyes:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

3. K&R

[KittyWampus]

7. sexual desire has nothing to do with how we express that desire?

[Solon]

8. Well, then clarify how gays express that desire differently...

I'm all ears, this should be interesting.

[donco6]

12. Boas . . . lots and lots of boas.

:sarcasm:

But seriously, I'm wondering, too. No reply yet, huh?

[Solon]

17. No, and I don't expect one either...

though the boa thing intrigues me and I wish to learn more. ;)

[KittyWampus]

20. Oh, I just replied. And you can please show me where I did anything but point out the illogic

in the OP.

You won't.

You can spend all day going through DU archives searching all of my posts from the first day I logged on here.

[Beam Me Up]

51. LoL

:rofl:

Yeah, I don't know. The one thing that came to me in my younger years was that I was attracted to the same gender cues I was competing for attention with. That got very confusing at times.

I try to imagine the opposite. Not easy. I have known a few cross dressing straight men but I think, comparatively speaking, there are very few straight women who are attracted to them. I mean, compared to the same "gender cues" attraction between gay men.

IOW, all in all I think the OP is correct but I'm NOT willing to say there are no differences between gays and straights or whatever. I *like* being special!

EDIT TO ADD: I remember this one time I was working out in the gym. There was this blond guy doing bench presses near by. VERY CUTE! I kept watching him in the mirror as I was doing curls. Then SUDDENLY IT DAWNED ON ME: oh my god, its a lesbian! Cracked me up. I had to go over to her, "Girl, you are SO cute! You really had me going there for a bit." She thought that was very funny. But true.

[KittyWampus]

15. where did I say "gays express that desire differently"? Didn't imply it. Just pointed out the flaw

in your opening post.

edit- and while there are plenty of people of any orientation who engage in your little scenario of "date, hold hands, first kiss" bla bla bla... there are huge numbers of people of any orientation who fuck around randomly and all too often carelessly.

[Solon]

18. Uhm, actually yes you did, sexual desire towards any particular sex, whether your own or the...

opposite sex only determines who you express the sexual desire too, not how. You own misreading of my post is your own problem.

[KittyWampus]

22. Critique my following statement please

Oh wait... you're saying orientation only has to do with being attracted to someone and nothing to do with what you do with that person?

[Solon]

25. Was that the subject of my post?

No it wasn't, my post ONLY deals with sexual orientation and issues surrounding that particular aspect of sexual desire. What you are talking about is distinctly offtopic from my own OP.

[KittyWampus]

26. I just changed my post, please critique the statement made above THANKS

[Solon]

30. Yes, and I'm surprised it took you this long to figure that out. n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

58. Not how, but with whom. nt

[DireStrike]

11. Closeted gays are still gay.

Fundies who go to denial camp and come out "cured" and go on to a miserable straight marriage are still gay.

Children who are exposed to homosexual behavior, but are straight, do not become gay.

Seriously, this must be the basis of our society's understanding of sexuality. By defining sexuality at a level of desire, you remove any consideration of whether it is a choice.

I don't see how this fact, and all its important implications, aren't immediately obvious. Please argue against me if I'm wrong.

[Stevenmarc]

14. It's hard for some people to separate

sexual orientation from sexual identity, the only thing that is "cured" at "denial camp" is their identity, how they perceive themselves, orientation never changes, it might be suppressed but it is what it is.

[LostinVA]

19. I can see your OP was definitely needed -- kick for more to raed

[Th1onein]

23. I think that people say that they don't care about what happens

in the bedroom because right winger DO care so much about this.

[Gormy Cuss]

57. The point is, by saying that phrase people are reinforcing that it's only about sex.

If my male coworker talks about going grocery shopping or on vacation with his male partner and someone else on the job complains to me about the gay worker shoving his lifestyle in my face, why would I reinforce that by saying that I don't care what people do in the bedroom since SEX wasn't mentioned at all?

[Th1onein]

60. I understand what you're saying, BUT.......

that's a different circumstance than what I was imagining. When people say that they hate gays, THEY are centering on what they do in the privacy of their bedrooms. That's why people make this distinction and that's why they make this remark in response to the discrimination--because right wingers discriminate against GLBT people because of something that's none of their business anyway.

[Vanje]

62. Sadly , these days.....

nothing happens in my bedroom, but I'm still 100% gay.

[Th1onein]

28. i don't care if I understand GLBT's or not.

I don't have to understand every group in society in order to know that they have the same rights that I have. As long as someone is not infringing on my rights, or the rights of others, I could care less what else they do or how they express themselves, or their sexuality, or anything else they want to express. There was a time in this country when we used to forbid blacks to marry. It's just as wrong as not allowing gays to marry.

[Solon]

31. And that has exactly what to do with my post?

Its offtopic, and nothing more than you puffing yourself up as trying to be enlightened or something, look, that's all great and all, but where in my OP is any of that relevant?

[LostinVA]

35. Seriesly

[closeupready]

41. It's relevant, IMO, because he/she is saying that

while it may be useful for some people (fundies, particularly) to be made aware of the facts of life, Thonein (and I, too) feels that seeking to deny the humanity and civil rights of gays and lesbians and bis on the basis of consensual actions and behavior is wrong (you know how this goes, 'well, gays CAN marry - they can marry someone of the opposite sex!' :eyes: 'it's a sin because of you ACT on your God-given orientation, not because you just have this orientation' :eyes: , etc.), on a lot of levels.

[Solon]

42. And again, its not relevant because those people aren't the target of my OP...

but rather people on DU, who should know better, but don't.

[closeupready]

45. Okay, got it - chill. We support you.

We may be making a side point, but no need to get so snippy with people on your side.

[Th1onein]

55. Let me quote you:

"Oh, and will people stop with the whole, "I don't care what people do in the bedroom" BS and its many, many, different wordings, Sexual Orientation involves much more than sex, would straight people reduce their own committed relationships to just fucking? Same sex relationships are no different than opposite sex ones, you date, fall in love, share a first kiss, hold hands, have sex, move in together, send flowers/other gifts to each other, write bad and sappy love poetry to each other(of course, this could just be me in my relationships. ) etc."

My understanding of these statements is that you think that people should understand the character of same sex relationships.

And, by the way, you should read the rules: "nothing more tha you puffing yourself up as trying to be enlightened or something...." is a personal insult.

[mitchum]

63. A cynic would also say it's the point of the OP...

"nothing more than you puffing yourself up as trying to be enlightened or something...."

Looks that way to this cynic

[Th1onein]

68. You know, I just get tired of the rudeness here. Don't you?

There is no sense in it. Why would you say something like that to someone who replies to your post? "Nothing more than you puffing yourself up as trying to be enlightened or something...." Just absolutely rude and uncalled for.

I like DU, but I'm fucking well getting sick of this kind of bullshit.

[Cabcere]

38. K&R.

Thanks for an excellent post. :hi:

[bluedawg12]

43. Would you please provide samples

of the bad, sappy, love poetry, I can use some new material.

Oh, BTW. A great OP, from a "clueless straight guy." :P

[Solon]

44. OK, you asked for it...

This is more of a goodbye poem, but the only one I have left in electronic form:

Guiding Light

Guiding Light, Shining So Bright
You lit up a path through a dark summer's night
Through kind words and deeds, you've shown this to me.

For while this path is now clear
I know not the perils that are there
But for some reason I do not fear.

To walk this path now, I feel free
From self-doubt, that now I see
The gift you gave to me.

It was only through introspection that I opened my eyes
For my world was filled with self doubt until I saw through the lies
Lies of my own making, ones that I said to myself.

These lies told me to doubt even you
Though now, with eyes open, I see what is true
Your words were never false, not even just once.

For your words of kindness and wisdom
I rewarded you with anger and venom
Now that I see, I can only say I'm sorry.

Doubting you stained me with guilt that will not wash away
A simple apology will not suffice, so this is all I can say
This can be difficult to say so I will not delay.

I love you for being a friend when I was in need
For you were right, where I was wrong in this at the least
True friends are friends through thick and thin.

For while I say that you are my Guiding Light
Such things are only fleeting, and flash past most before they might
See the things I saw when I looked into your eyes.

I say this with a heart that has been lifted
You are the one who is truely gifted
That you see with eyes wide open.

I'm no longer lost, blundering through the dark
For though I was not seeking, I saw that soul within you.
Bright soul, one who is true
Remember these words
And follow them through:

Live as if everyday is the last, be free, and be happy.

I told you it was sappy! So you have been warned! :)

[bluedawg12]

52. That was lovely. thank you for sharing. Mine is a picture poem.

A Cat on An Ode.

love is like a cat
sleeping
on you face

[Chovexani]

46. Solon

I love you in a totally platonic way that does not in anyway suggest I want to sleep with you because I'm bi and thus a wanton harlot.

(My wanton harlotry has nothing to do with my sexual orientation, I swear. :evilgrin:)

[Solon]

47. Aww it doesn't?

Damn, I had my hopes up there for a minute. :P

[Starry Messenger]

48. I thought everybody knew this.

I guess not. Recommended for those among us who needed a tap of the clue bat this morning.

[Cronus Protagonist]

49. So you're saying John Travolta is gay even although he's married to a woman?

I say people can only determine this for themselves and no one can lay a label like that onto anyone else with any hope of accuracy, based on behavior, desire or anything else. "Gay" is a political statement these days.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

53. Huh?

:wtf:

[Starry Messenger]

54. .

[racaulk]

50. K&R

[aikoaiko]

56. I don't dismiss the sex act as a part of sexual identity.

Sure it is not required, but it is often a part of our sexual identity.

[Lilith Velkor]

59. kicky wicky/reccy weccy

:yourock:

[Solon]

61. Kicking this so that more clueless people can either get educated or embarrass themselves...

I took a nap, hence why I've neglected this thread, and I'm going to lay down again because I'm sick and feel like shit. But at least I don't use that as an excuse for stupid posts. :)

[hunter]

64. You're hot Solon!

But it ain't going anywhere. I'm married, monogamous, and happy that way.

;)

[Quantess]

65. I agree. I'm a straight woman, and I agree .

I have been friends with many straight people, some bisexual people, some gay people. We are all similar, except we don't all have the same sexual preferences.

Supposedly, except, the other straight women, some of whom have gross taste in men. So, they don't count. LOL

In High School, I was unknowingly attracted to some gay men. One of them was a Senior when I was a Junior. We were good friends, but I wanted it to be more, and I couldn't understand why he didn't pick up on my advances. He never told me that his friend I flirted with was his boyfriend, either. I should have known (faceplant). I found out he was gay from someone else, years after graduation. Looking back, I know he wanted to tell me, he often tried to, sometimes started to, but never did. I was way too cluless to figure out the blatantly obvious signs for myself, at the time.

edit to add the LOL so nobody gets offended.

[Zhade]

66. Thanks Solon, especially for the bisexual points.

NT!

[ConsAreLiars]

67. And, to dot an "i" and cross a "t," and maybe boggle a mind or two,

attraction is not dependent on gender identity, which is in turn not dependent on the nature of the reproductive organs of the person.

One of my relatives is FtoM Trans. The same girlfriend before and after going through all the hoops to become legally male. Formerly labeled as lesbian - now, according to law and common usage, straight and thus able to become legally married to her-now-his sweetheart. And the wife has now become "straight" according to common usage. Those labels often hide the fact that our attractions, those we want to partner with/support/share/be affectionate with/mate with, is at first sort of vague and generic, and with luck eventually narrows down to a mutual relationship with one individual in which the broader classifications and labels become irrelevant. There is no reason this kind of pairing/bonding should be any more or less legal than any other.

[flvegan]

69. I'll do it. Anyone clueless enough to be offended by being called clueless

is a fucking idiot.

K&R.

[Renwiick]

70. You have courage....Solon

sex is fast...love is forever..