If you think Nadya Suleman isn't batshit crazy, watch the interview.

[NYC_SKP]

I just caught snips of her first interview on MSNBC. The interview with Ann Curry will air later today on NBC.

She says she's not being selfish because she'll be "providing herself" to all of them. :wtf:

"I just longed for certain connections and attachments with another person that I -- I really lacked, I believe, growing up," Suleman said. "I didn't feel as though, when I was a child, I had much control of my environment. I felt powerless. And that gave me a sense of predictability. I -- reflecting back on my childhood, I know it wasn't functional. It was pretty -- pretty dysfunctional, and whose isn't?"

She is BATSHIT crazy and what she did is WRONG and her children should be taken from her.

I repeat, she should be committed and all the children taken from her.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-me-octuplets6-2009feb06,0,1617934.story

[Heidi]

1. Take her kids from her because it's the general consensus that she's "batshit insane"?

Shouldn't the first step be to determine whether there's evidence that's she's incompetent to care for her children? And if that evidence exists, why not help her get the care she needs?

If she's mentally ill, as you say, then why not treat her with compassion just as you would treat a person with a physical illness with compassion?

[NYC_SKP]

8. The care she needs should have come sooner, and the medical industry that...

...allowed this to happen is equally culpable, and perhaps more to blame.

Of course you are correct; there is a process to be followed to determine her competence.

And I'm all for treating her with compassion, while she's institutionalized and while her children are being cared for by rational adult adoptive parents.

I don't support pouring millions of dollars into making her mistake "all right", while the kids lives would be better than they would without such support, the wouldn't be very stable.

[Heidi]

22. Why on earth would you consider institutionalizing her?

That's a final resort for folks who are in critical danger of harming themselves or others; there is no evidence that this woman wants more children, it's been reported that she has no remaining embryos to be implanted, or that she's a danger to herself or her kids. Further, this situation has gotten so much publicity that I very much doubt there's even an unscrupulous fertility doctor who would be willing to impregnate her with borrowed eggs and sperm.

I was adopted when I was six years old. If you want to know about children who were neglected and abused to the point of their lives being endangered, send me a PM and I'll reply to you honestly and graciously. Meanwhile, I find it absolutely outrageous that anyone would suggest withholding compassion from a person just because people on the internet think that person is "batshit insane."

"Batshit insane," as I'm sure you know, is an opinion and not a diagnosis.

[NYC_SKP]

38. I used the term "batshit insane" in part to make it clear it was an opinion.

Not sarcasm, but hyperbole, an opinion, a reaction.

Having spent four years with long-term incarcerated 14-18 year old boys, and reading their journals and knowing their life stories, I'm not without compassion.
I once had 3 boys in tears during class simultaneously after each had gotten bad news from home.
I had a boy who was incontinent with bowel movements, what kind of home life do you think he had?
I had a boy who's dad beat his mom for letting them go to school and another whose grandfather was his real dad.
He was one of the three crying that one day, his grandfather had just died.

I'm not without compassion. I have compassion for this woman but also for these children.

She has created an untenable situation, an extraordinary number of children in a single parent home with no means of financial support.

I don't feel that her children will have a better life necessarily if they stay with her.

Provided that truly loving homes could be found for permanent adoption, I'd prefer giving the support to them.

Frankly, I want her punished and as long as the kids have an equal or better life without her, I don't want to see her madness succeed.

And, I want her to get all the help she needs, it may not be an institution, I got a little excited about that part.

[Heidi]

39. Please reconsider your position. If, indeed, she's mentally ill, there's an MD out there

who took advantage of a person with mental illness, and that's the crux, don't you agree. Why you would want a person "punished" for acting out of illness, with the accommodation/predation of an MD, is also worth reconsidering.

[NYC_SKP]

41. I agree.

Rather than use the word "punish", I should say that she shouldn't be "rewarded" with the kids unless and until it can be shown that they can have an absolutely loving and nourishing happy home.

I think that's more likely to happen with adoptive parents, but I fully support decisions being made by professionals and not me!

PS, PM sent.

:-)

[acmavm]

120. "...there is no evidence that this woman wants more children..."

Well not yet. The stitches probably still hurt. Give her time.

[Kahuna]

2. Wow. Her parents who are supporting her dumb ass must be thrilled

to learn that she didn't feel in control???!!! AND, how many kids does it take for her to feel 'in control'? :crazy:

[NashVegas]

3. Let's Hear It For Control Freak Moms Everywhere

Yay!

May as well just hand the kids Michael Phelps' bong right now ...

[Kajsa]

4. This doesn't make sense,

'Suleman, a single mother who already had six other children and lives with her parents'

how does she plan on "providing" for her 14 children,
living in her parents' house?

Is she factoring in how this affects her parents?

I don't think so.

[NYC_SKP]

No, she didn't factor anything in, she is monumentally selfish.

Asked how she was going to provide for all these kids, she said "I'll give them my self" as if that was all they fucking need.

As if her self had some enormous value and was all anyone in the world needed.

To her, to kids are the luckiest kids in the world because they'll have HER.

[Kajsa]

116. I know, NYC-SKP.

Her "logic" is very bizarre.

:eyes:

[glinda]

16. Has she received money from pro-life Groups at all??????

[treestar]

33. That would be interesting to find out

A thing that seems contradictory is that pro-lifers should oppose IVF logically, because God didn't create those lives by Himself.

[glinda]

123. Didn't think of that but still it seems she has no income that I can tell.

Maybe she still works as an aid or nurse or whatever but there is absolutely no way she can support the litter on her own. No way! Plus....I don't know how one would find out since they may have given it privately to her if they did at all.

[Kajsa]

117. I have no idea.

That would be interesting
to find the answer to your question.

[sledgehammer]

85. Her father is returning to Iraq to make some money

"The grandfather, she adds, is apparently going to head back to his native Iraq to earn money for the growing family."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/30/earlyshow/health/main4764432.shtml

Another article mentioned he is going to be a linguist and a driver.

[Kajsa]

118. Ho-Boy!!

Her father can risk his life going into
a war zone to

support HER children.

She is something else.

:(

[Kahuna]

5. Something is wrong with that lady. It's up to the experts to figure out

exactly what. But she is not thinking rationally....just for starters.

[blm]

37. It's apparent to me - she wants to BE Angelina Jolie - look at her plastic surgery

.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

46. The minute I saw her, I saw the resemblance to Jolie. Did she really do that

deliberately?

[hisownpetard]

89. Sure looks that way. Her lips are so full of filler that she can hardly talk!

Seems like there a smorgasbord of disorders in play here.

Wow.

[blm]

109. Of course she did ..... this is SWF(the movie)Syndrome

.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

55. I noticed the plastic surgery right away....

NOT good work at all, way too much and badly done. :scared:

More evidence of a potential mental disorder.

[Wendio]

68. I am wondering how she paid for both...

Plastic surgery and in vitro fertilization??? That is not cheap!

[blm]

110. The babies would be part of it...she couldn't adopt like Jolie, so she HAD to give birth

to keep up.

[Control-Z]

128. OMG

I had to go look. I don't normally take much of an interest in stories like these, but I'm just dumbfounded by this one, and honestly, want to know the details. I want to hear all the good reasons for doing this. I want to not feel scammed. I want to believe this woman will be able to take care of her children. I hope there are people willing to help her. But, unless her story changes dramatically for the good, I don't think she should be celebrated for what seems to be a selfish, selfish act.

And I'm afraid you're right, she does seem to have an AJ persona going on. It could just be her, naturally, though. Who knows. Maybe she is mentally ill. I can't imagine a good reason to do what she's done but that doesn't mean there wasn't one (good reason). If she is, it is tragic that it wasn't treated before the babies. One way of the other, the woman needs all kinds of help and I can't imagine society letting her children suffer.

[NYC_SKP]

142. Fourteen kids all under 7. Think about it.

Traditional large families could have older ones helping out, but this group will need three adults.

And she's gonna do it alone. How do you, for example, take them to the doctor, you have to bring in two at a time and leave a dozen in the van or bus or whatever.

She is not well, the kids need to go to adoptive parents with the resources and emotional stability to provide a loving stable home.

She won't provide that even with millions of dollars in assistance.

What a tragedy.

[treestar]

6. Who is the father and is he involved?

He sure is up to his neck in child support liability.

It is allegedly the same guy.

[TheWraith]

12. Sperm donor. Probably anonymous. nt

[HamdenRice]

17. Actually he wasn't anonymous, but as sperm donor, he is relieved of responsibility (see below) nt

[Barack_America]

18. Not anonymous. His name is on the kid's birth certificates.

Though I read a story that he did not consent to the IVF for the octuplets.

[HamdenRice]

15. He was a sperm donor. If the sperm was donated through a licensed doctor, he is not legally father

It's a little more complicated than that, but most states have laws that relieve a sperm donor of all legal obligations of fatherhood, including child support and inheritance, if the donation was done through the appropriate licensed professional -- usually a sperm bank or even just a licensed physician in many states.

There are some pretty funny "turkey baster" cases, in which a "male friend" has helped a "female friend" get preggers through sperm donation done at home -- and they all discover that the biological father is legally the father.

Lesson: don't try this at home (ie, don't do this through an unlicensed person).

For this case, though, because she had a fertility doc, it's highly likely that the biological father, whom she knew, who was a friend, and who was aware of what was happening, has no legal responsibility for the children.

[treestar]

29. Thank you for all that information

I didn't know what their liability was in that sort of case.

:hi:

What is interesting here, from a child support collection viewpoint, this allows a child to have one parent and only one parent the state can expect to support the children.

[shanti]

54. i was not aware

that they put the names of sperm donors on ones birth certificate...:shrug:

[HamdenRice]

64. If it's a friendly donation, why not?

She says she knows the guy. You can do that -- have a friend donate sperm.

If you go through a licensed intermediary and comply with the statute, then the donor is not the legal father.

[shanti]

69. is that new york law?

i'm in california and AFAIK, any father named on the bc must sign a voluntary declaration of paternity. sperm donors are legally "unknown".

[HamdenRice]

112. Actually, I believe it's effective as California law

There are various versions of the "Uniform Status of Children of Assisted Conception Act." It applies to children born through artificial insemination and other forms of "assisted conception," and IIRC California has generally had the most up to date, constantly revised versions.

The statute was originally designed for anonymous sperm donors, but people have been experimenting with so many different permutations and the law has tended to keep up with those permutations. The idea is that people who use assisted conception should be able to determine who the legal parents are regardless of biology: for example, a anonymous sperm donor to a married woman is not the legal father, but the woman's sterile husband is the father for all legal purposes; the gay male "friend" sperm donor to a lesbian couple is not the legal father of the lesbian couple's child, even if the biological father wants to be known and play a role in the child's life; and so on. If you use the right channels (licensed doctor), the sperm donor, whether known or unknown, is not the legal father.

Basically it's a way for intent to trump biology. It generally overrides purely ministerial forms of paternity like birth certificates.

In this case, the mother says explicitly that she knows the father, the father knows about the circumstances, but that the child was conceived through in vitro embryo implantation, which is a form of "assisted conception" -- unless they intended otherwise.

[RoadRage]

70. She was actually married until 2008..

I read that she divorced her husband in 2008, but all of her 6 previous children are from a "sperm donor"..this makes no sense! How do you have a sperm donor for 7 years (age of her oldest kid), and be married until 2008?

This story is so fishy, odd and whacked that the more details that come out, the more of a mess it really is.

And the victims of course are 14 totally unsuspecting kids. :(

[moc]

7. I find her words very revealing. She's "longed" for "connections" that she "lacked" growing up.

There was some deficit in her own childhood that having children will supposedly fill.

:crazy:

Yeah, that's a real healthy reason to have 14 kids under the age of 7. It's a recipe for some seriously fucked up kids, imo.

[sinkingfeeling]

19. I liked the statement that as a child she didn't 'feel like she controlled her environment." What

child should be in control of their environment? Most children rely on their parents to do that.

[XemaSab]

119. And the kicker:

Her parents that supposedly screwed up her life in the first place are going to be raising these children.

[Alcibiades]

24. Her mother has said

The she was obsessed with having a lot of children because she had no siblings of her own. Apparently, she's an only child.

An only child who thinks they are the center of the universe and that they can do whatever they want. I know, birth order isn't everything, but this is classic.

[NYC_SKP]

40. It's classic. It's textbook. It's probably not yet "in the literature".

Of course her kids shouldn't be taken away from her without professional intervention.

But I'm thinking they'd all be better of in loving adoptive homes.

I'd happily send money to these homes.

Rewarding her indulgent, uber-selfish behavior with the kinds of extraordinary support needed to try to give these kids a normal healthy live WITH her, I'm not so excited about supporting that.

Whatever is best for the kids.

[mentalsolstice]

63. I'm an only child with no children

I had no desire and I have no regrets. Sometimes we only children are more aware of our parents' dysfunctions and have no desire to pass them along to later generations.

[Cleita]

86. Me too, but I had no children because I couldn't, and my husband

didn't want to adopt. However, on that note, it's time to dispel this myth about only children being selfish and wrapped up in themselves. How we turn out is very much in our genes and environment like any other child. True I miss the fact that I didn't have siblings, but I had cousins and friends to keep me from becoming too self-involved. Also, when it came time for me to become care giver to my parents, I had no brothers and sisters to help out nor children when I became caregiver to my husband so I feel that any selfishness I may have harbored is long gone now.

[Alcibiades]

147. It's not that folks with no siblings have more kids

But rather that it has been thought that folks who have no siblings are self-centered, as this woman clearly is. This idea comes to us from psychology, where "birth-order effects" were once thought to be very important to personality. This is old literature, though, and birth order is not something as interesting to psychologists today as it once was.

I agree with you about your parents, or, rather, parents in general: most folks try very hard not to make the same mistakes their parents did, though it's inevitable that we will make new ones!

[Peregrine Took]

45. I would love to see what a psychiatrist would say about her after observing

the interview.

[moc]

67. My husband is a therapist (clinical social worker). I'm dying to get his take on her. nt

[shanti]

58. exactly

and she was suicidal before the pregnancy?? :wow:

[rvablue]

73. And really just begs the question

Did she think how her own 14 kids, all close in age, with the same emotional/materials needs at every stage of developmpent, are basically doomed to "long" for "connections" they "lacked" while growing up??

It's fair to say, I think, that this is inevitable.

What a selfish and weird woman.

[bluestateguy]

9. The honorable thing to do is put the 8 kids up for adoption

but that's just what I think.

[shanti]

60. i kind of doubt

that she would voluntarily do this....they'd have to be removed.

[Faygo Kid]

10. They ought to pull a couple medical licenses, too.

Whoever implanted those embryos into this nutcase ought to be kicked out of the medical field for good.

[NYC_SKP]

52. That's a fact. They're more to blame than she was.

This crazy woman had help, and that help was criminal, IMO.

.

[shanti]

62. don't physicians

have to evaluate prospective patients before agreeing to perform this procedure? i agree that it was criminal for the physician to have gone thru with it. 14 kids without a father....:(

[NYC_SKP]

71. Maybe she lied about her children, her home situation.

"first do no harm" is in the oath they take. :(

[RockaFowler]

91. She really couldn't lie

It was the same doctor who performed each IVF. How did she get a doctor to agree to do this?? Also, someone mentioned above that she was married until 2008. That's not correct. According to the interview, she divorced her husband in 2000 shortly after her accident.

[LisaL]

151. No. I think she and her husband separated in 2000. But the divorce

wasn't legally finalized until 2008.

[otohara]

113. Might Be In Mexico

My friend in CA says there's a rumor floating, she went cross the border, it's a lot cheaper.

[Shakespeare]

114. I'm in LA, and have heard the same thing.

Some of those rumors are coming from the medical community, btw.

[Gold Metal Flake]

11. How many more litters of eight can she have in her life?

Can't wait for the next set!

[NYC_SKP]

72. I guess as many as the public will pay for and the medical industry will allow.

Shame on all of us, this was a symphony of mistakes, oversights, and indulgences.

:patriot:

[Missy Vixen]

13. For those of us who've been told how "selfish" we are because we didn't have children

I present Exhibit A.

So, the kids are going to make her "whole", huh? That's an awfully large burden to lay on an infant, isn't it?

Imagine how fourteen kids are going to feel competing for the attention of one woman.

[Kahuna]

44. What I don't get is, why couldn't she be "whole" with the first six? Or even

after the first ONE??? Seems to me there are enough babies in the world to make this nutcase feel whole. Maybe she is one of those people who just loves "babies." And after they are no longer infants she no longer has a use for them.

[Missy Vixen]

53. This all makes me sick to my stomach

Imagining the life fourteen children will have as a result of a woman who shouldn't have been entrusted with ONE.

Children are not a fashion accessory. They are not born in order to fulfill some kind of sick longing for companionship (or belief that they will "complete" the parent involved). If they are, maybe that person needs to involve themselves in their adult relationships instead.

[Mamacrat]

66. They are becoming individuals.

Her older children are individuating so they are no longer fulfilling her needs, which she clearly stated as her reason for having them in the first place. I love what a popular TV host says about having children, that your child shouldn't have to come into the world with a "job" to do.

[NYC_SKP]

100. Right. What if 14 isn't enough, what if she's still not "whole"!

Let's be honest, that person never was and never will be "whole".

What a con artist.

:mad:

[shanti]

65. it's a very immature attitute to have

like a teenager would think. personally, i would never tell someone that they were selfish for not having children. my bf is 53 and has no children. she would make a great mom, but realizes that her own upbringing was very messed up wouldn't be able to do justice in bringing up a child - especially on her own. children aren't for everyone. i personally feel that my own father shouldn't have had any children, but i was a child of the 50's and not having children wasn't really an option then.

[Vinca]

14. The interview never got to the question most of us would like to have answered.

Who's paying the tab? Lots of moms would like to "provide" themselves to their children, but they find they have to work to feed the brood and can only spend part of a day with their kids. If this woman has a gold mine in her back yard, good for her, but if she's living off the taxpayers I'm extemely annoyed. If I can't afford healthcare, I'm not real excited about paying her million dollar hospital bill.

[glinda]

20. and..."How many lip injections did it take to look like Jolie????" since you

obviously are so lost that you attempt to imitate someone rather than having your own personality.

[sinkingfeeling]

23. The state has been paying her $24K a year (total $168,000) since she was injured 7 years ago.

So, by living with her Mom, I guess she used that money for the IVF procedure. Hospital bills are estimated at over $1.3 million. That's why she wants all those interviews, book deals, and TV series to pay for the kids.

[Ilsa]

79. She is injured but capable of carrying 8 fetuses?

Doesn't sound right. Is the state paying her disability?

[SoCalDem]

92. I've got news for her.. The satate of California WILL come after her for reimbursement

if she does "come into money"..

[AzDar]

21. A little Angelina Jolie-obsessed perhaps?

Very strange.

[Shakespeare]

57. And with lip injections to match. I had the same thought.

She's given herself a serious case of trout mouth. Wonder if she had injections done while she was pregnant, too, or just had them done in the last day or two?

That woman is not right.

[rvablue]

76. I didn't see the interview and I'm on dial-up, so what's the

deal with AJ comments on this thread?

Did the mom say something to the effect of, "Well AJ has a lot of kids and she handles it. So can I."

If so, the woman is so,so unhinged and obviously searching for attention maybe for some financial gain from this.

[Shakespeare]

81. No--it appears she's trying to make herself look like Jolie.

Complete with (really bad, really over-done) lip injections. It's creepy.

[NYC_SKP]

82. The woman has A.J. lips. Nothing that I saw in the interview about plastic surgery.

But there might be the suggestion that she had it, which adds a dimension to the story.

Or it may have to do with AJs adoptions, I don't know.

I didn't hear reference to AJ in any of the snips and haven't seen the full interview.

:hi:

[Shakespeare]

83. Those lips are NOT natural.

I live in Hollywood, and see enough cases of trout mouth every week to give a sane person nightmares.

[NYC_SKP]

94. LOL!

So, what do you make of her brain?

[CBGLuthier]

25. Where did you get your degree doctor?

How many years of med school do you have?

When republicans diagnose at a distance we condemn them. You are better than them because?

Anyone else who should have their children taken away? By your "standards?"

Finally, do you have any fucking idea what it is like to actually be "batshit crazy"? Really? Do YOU?

[NYC_SKP]

28. My degrees came from the Mr. Obvious school of Common Sense.

Her behavior speaks for itself. One doesn't need a degree to recognize instability.

Unless one thinks, and some do, that it's perfectly normal to use state money to perpetually implant embryos and assemble a small army of babies born under medically dangerous conditions without any fucking means of support for them.

It's not alright to do that, doncha know?!

.

[Missy Vixen]

56. Let's see here. Fourteen children under the age of eight?

>Finally, do you have any fucking idea what it is like to actually be "batshit crazy"? Really? Do YOU?

I'd say that's probably a pretty good litmus test. Then again, what do I know? I don't have children. I can't even imagine coping with the demands, not just financially but physically, of FOURTEEN CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF EIGHT. Alone!

There is a reason the human body was not made to spit out litters!

[LibDemAlways]

26. I posted on a different thread yesterday that at the

very least child protective services needs to get involved for the sake of all her children.

Predictably, I was then attacked by another DUer as not a good Dem for not supporting the woman's "choice" to have as many children as she wanted. Said poster then added that I should mind my own business.

I stand by my original observation, and this interview proves the point. This woman has a screw or two or three loose and while I am personally not advocating that her children be taken away, CPS has an obligation to be certain they are all protected and getting the care they need.

[treestar]

30. They shouldn't attack you for that, because CPS does exist

for a reason. And this lady has red flags all over the place.

[LibDemAlways]

35. Here's a link to the attack post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4979209&mesg_id=4984690

Unbelievable that concern for 14 innocent children could prompt such a nasty response.

[NYC_SKP]

42. Incredible. What you said was exactly correct. What's best for the kids is all that matters.

And I hope to hell the "mother" isn't rewarded with custody or in any other way.

:hi:

[NYC_SKP]

34. Some people actually think that a woman has a right to have an unlimited number

of babies at public expense.

Not all Democrats agree with that one, especially the tax paying ones.

This case really puts the argument to the test.

I expect a few comments to flame my OP, but I'm standing my ground.

After CPS involvement and some other agency involvement, these kids should not go to her, and some medical licenses should be pulled.

Legislation may need to be enacted, though I don't know what that would look like.

.

[treestar]

106. I don't like to get too much into the public expense part

Because it tends to discriminate against poor people. But, even if she can afford all 14, she still is putting them in danger unless she can show she can also afford at least 4 nannies, or some number that is reasonable and/or that she has committment from that many other adults - and we know her Mom is not going to stick with them. Her dad went to Iraq and that leaves just her. Just too many to keep track of.

The Duggers might be similar but there they have two parents and the children are not like 8 the same age - the older ones don't need the minute attention. (though there is also the argument they shouldn't have to do so much caretaking of younger children).

[rvablue]

77. Indeed. And after doing this, who is to say

that she won't go for another treatment to have more babies?

Choice is choice.

This is about thinking about and caring for the well-being of children.

[NYC_SKP]

80. She said, "it turned out perfectly."

Can you believe it?
The tiniest baby is 1-1/2 pounds.

I don't know whether to :cry: or :puke:

.

[Rabrrrrrr]

27. I saw some of it on the Today show this morning - her eyes, facial gestures, hair,

her poise, her choice of words, her use of language - they all show a control-freak narcissist who, I think, doesn't really understand, nor quite possibly even experience, love.

She's creepy scary, and I feel sorry for her family, her kids, and her friends.

[NYC_SKP]

31. Creepy, wasn't she?

Gives me the chills.

And she sure played the system like a pro.

While I was married, my working wife and my working self looked into IVF, $10,000 a pop, we decided not to do it.

Fuck her. Those babies should never come home to her.

[Peregrine Took]

43. Just like there are "animal hoarders" and "paper hoarders" -she's a "baby

hoarder."

I feel sorry for those kids - for her being their weird mom and the health and emotional problems they well may experience.

[NYC_SKP]

155. She plays the system quite well, as does the father.

The parents seem to have a shred of decency, her mom reportedly urged her to stop at six.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

49. She was odd but the Today Show had to have on a shrink during that segment

to tell everyone how disturbed she is. I didn't like that at all.

[nc4bo]

32. Hehe, I thought all she needed was a scarf and she could impersonate the Virgin Mary

:sarcasm:

[Alcibiades]

36. Her children should not be taken from her

at this point, though I think social services should certainly be involved.

This whole crazy thing began, according to the People article, because she wanted "just one more girl." I've seen a lot of people go through all kinds of weirdness for similar reasons, because they want a boy or a girl for whatever reason.

I think that's very, very silly. You take what you get. If you get all boys or all girls, be happy with that. You certainly shouldn't get a massive number of embryos implanted and have a litter of underweight babies just because you are looking to have a child of a specific gender. Male, female, gay, straight, handicapped, ginger, whatever: you get what you get, and that's what you signed up for. We should love the kids we have, and not have more in some attempt to get one that is the way you want it to be: you have the kids you have, and they get to find out who they are with your help.

She clearly has issues. The jury should be out on whether these kids should be taken from her, at this point--but they should keep a close eye on her kids, that's for sure!

[L.A.dweller]

145. CPS won't get involved at this point unless

the mother has 1) prior CPS involvement, 2) drug use (Prozac doesn't count).

As long as the mother is able to provide the children with the basic necessities of life they will remain hers,
unless she voluntarily gives them up for adoption.

If in the future the Mother neglect's their health needs, or emotionally/physically abuses them then CPS will get involved
(but only IF someone makes a phone call to alert authorities).

The children may be removed from her custody only if it is determined that the home environment
is detrimental to the children. The state/county can't take detain someone's kids just because they have too many!
If that were the case, then the system would be taxed to the brink more so than it is right now.

[EstimatedProphet]

47. The world's full of the batshit crazy

That's no reason to take her children away. Clinical mental illness may be, for the protection of the children. Mommy issues are no reason to make more foster children. Now, should she be given a reality show/book deal/TV interviews? No. We have a problem in this country with rewarding people simply for not being mundane, and it leads to people making stupid decisions so that they can get rewarded.

[NYC_SKP]

50. Foster homes are different from Adoptive homes.

If, after proper professional evaluation, it's found that she's not well, I believe the kids should be adopted by loving homes.

That's just my opinion.

Foster homes are a different matter, kids often get shifted from home to home, it's often not pretty.

[EstimatedProphet]

97. Either/or

Foster homes or adoptive homes, doesn't matter. If she's indeed mentally incompetent to raise children, then yes, they should find other homes for the children. If she's simply a publicity-hound, it would be worse to take the children away.

[NYC_SKP]

99. Yep, it's disgraceful.

They'd probably be better off in a Foster home, as often unstable as they are, than to live with a psycho mom.

Have a good weekend! :hi:

[treestar]

107. True but they don't have 14 under the age of 7

To do that alone, if it is possible, would take incredibly strong mental health.

[NYC_SKP]

144. Yes, current six are aged 2 to 7. It will take two adults full time, minimum.

Make that two sane adults.

Right now there are none.

[nadine_mn]

48. It is so easy to judge others isnt it?

I mean crazy people shouldn't have kids right? Of course what defines crazy? Depression? OCD? Bi-polar? Schizophrenia? Where do you draw the line?

If you can't afford them you shouldn't have them either.. of course what if you lose your job? then should you just be forced to hand over your kids too?

What if you love your children, raise them well, but have a mental illnes... should they be taken too?

And where do they go?


Nah its better to name call and to criminalize poverty and mental illness rather than look at the real issues here...

[NYC_SKP]

51. She is not a victim of poverty. Nice try. The kids' rights trump her rights.

If she's so poverty-stricken, how did she afford the IVF procedures?

If she needs treatment, let her have it.

In the meantime she's gone and made 14 human beings and their rights trump hers.

Anyone who tries to frame this in a woman's right to chose to have children regardless of the impact on the children will fail.

The kid's interests always have to come first.

[nadine_mn]

130. not sure if your reply was directed at me... but I will say I have

read many opinions posted about how she shouldn't have children if she can't afford them.

That's a line I am not comfortable drawing.

I am not framing this as her rights vs the children's... what I am saying is that saying she is batshit crazy and should have her children taken away is ridiculous. Unless she is harming the kids... kids being brought into the world isn't enough to say take them away.

[NYC_SKP]

136. no, not directed at you but to the comment to which you replied.

I think very few would say that nobody should have kids if they can't afford them.

I think most agree it's the idea of having 8 more on top of six you can't afford that is a bit too much.

My suggestion that they be taken away is upon the condition that she's crazy, and my OP suggests that once the video is seen, most will agree that she is.

Of course it probably won't happen.

But wouldn't the kids likely be better off with other parents?

I mean, now someone has to pay for all of the ordinary care, and the extraordinary mental and emotional care these preemies will need, AND have to provide extraordinary counselling and support for this "mother" to make her more stable...

...all to defend HER right to bear children, never minding what might be best for the kids.

No, I just don't get that. I don't support her "right" to keep these kids.

I think she gave that up as surely as a convict gives up their right to vote or a drunk gives up their right to drive.

:shrug:

[Shakespeare]

59. Unstable people perhaps--just perhaps--should not have FOURTEEN children.

This has nothing to do with poverty, and everything to do with a sick, obsessed woman who's now putting 14 other innocent lives on the line.

[nadine_mn]

131. So sterilize women you deem are unstable?

Because that is really the only way to stop a woman from having children

[JI7]

141. nobody here is calling for that, people are criticizing her and you ahve a problem with that

and now you are making things up trying to claim those who are criticizing her are calling to sterilize her.

[nadine_mn]

143. how else to you stop someone from having children

the comment was "maybe someone who is unstable should not have 14 children"

there was a time when women were institutionalized and sterilized for being 'crazy' - people saying that she should be institutionalized because she has 14 children are risking that slide down a slippery slope

Personally, I don't have nor want kids but I object to anyone saying who can and cannot have children

[JI7]

146. this is stupid, one can support population control but that doesn't mean

they support the actions taken by the Chinese Govt to control it.

[Kajsa]

148. There are other ways to

control the population besides sterilization.

Using birth control methods is the first that comes to mind.

[MiniMe]

152. Or don't do in-vitro on them when they already have 6 kids, and then

implant 6 more embryos. She has not conceived a child in the normal way.

[stanwyck]

156. All of her children are from in vitro - all 14

no one is talking sterilization. We're trying to have a discussion without hysterical over-simplification. If you've seen her interview, you'll have noticed that she speaks only of her own needs. What she wants. What she has always wanted. The welfare of the children is not even on her radar. She now has 14 children under the age of 7. She has no husband. She has no means of support. Except, of course, cashing in on becoming a media celebrity because of her medical procedures.
Rather than jump to the dramatic, take in the entire picture here. And think about what is best for children. First: health. We humans are not equipped to naturally birth 8 babies. The babies will have considerable health problems. Second: emotional support. One mother: 14 children. Do the math. Third: finances. Again, one mother - unemployed. No father (it's that in vitro thing again.) 14 children. Yep. It's quite the math problem.
Face it. This isn't about the children.
It's about a narcissistic mother.

[jmg257]

61. If she can afford them all-more power to her. But if she had them knowing she couldn't pay the

hundreds of thousands of $$$ it will take - she's a dumb and selfish ass. And probably at least a bit crazy too.

Of course that has nothing to do with taking them away. HER decision, so let HER take care of them. Of course unless she IS crazy, and not just stupid.

[Kahuna]

105. To be able to afford them she would need to hire a few around the clock..

namnies. It is impossible for one person to care for 8 infants AND the other six alone. Can she afford to hire a few nannies? I don't think so.

[pipi_k]

84. OK, I'll bite...

you said that people don't want to look at the "real issues" here...

What are the real issues?

[nadine_mn]

132. We as a society failed her and those children

That so much attention (media, tv shows etc) is given to multiple births, that just because we can stick 8 embryos in a woman doesn't mean we should, that if there were warning signs that she has mental illness what help was offered, now that she has these children what can be done to make their life and her life better?

[sledgehammer]

87. Some facts...

She already has 6 kids

Her parents filed for bankruptcy and have moved in with her.

She doesn't have a job herself, and wants to pursue an education.

And yet, with all these facts, she goes through with IVF to have another child, and chooses to implant herself with 6 embryos.

I'm not in a licensed position to say she's crazy or anything, but I can clearly see that she has shown very poor judgment. And I will judge her on that. Even if the 6 embryos ended up turning out one child, I would say the same. I probably would say the same when she was at three kids and chose to have another.

[Kahuna]

102. Strawman - - strawman -- strawman--and yet another strawman. nt

[NYC_SKP]

104. No, she's a "victim of poverty"!

:rofl:

This woman is playing every angle she can.

It's pathetic that anyone thinks that her behavior needs to be defended.

Treated, maybe, defended, never.

:mad:

[nadine_mn]

133. because I mention mental illness?

Or because I bring up the fact that so many have said if she can't afford them she shouldn't have them?

[Hopfrog]

115. Gotta agree

The problem is, even in a case like this that seems really obvious, we don't know the lady. We're all relying on a media; a media which frankly we don't walk around singing and dancing abot how much we trust them; to make a decision for us. Its funny how every court case in America that hits the news, everyone in the country has an opinion on it. Like we're so certain, because we saw a 30 second clip on the news. I think Nadya is crazy, sure, but more important I don't think I know anything about it.

[JI7]

140. she is a disgusting piece of shit , Duggars get crap on DU also

it has nothing to do with poverty, mental illness etc.

i think she is just a selfish asshole.

[cherish44]

74. She's delusional

I know lots of single mothers who have done a great job raising their kids but ask any of them they'll tell you, it's hard work and often stressful as hell. Raising kids WITH a partner is hard work and stressful, it's not all fun and cuteness. Loving children is great. But can one person get it all done? Diapers, kids getting sick, homework, doctor appointments, grocery shopping, temper tantrums, laundry, siblings fighting, cooking, cleaning, driving kids to their activities, giving them baths, taking them to the park, dealing with troubles at school, teenage problems, to mention paying for all it..If one person thinks she can take care of all those things by herself, they're deluded. Her reason for having the kids...to have a connection with another person...reeks of someone who is mentally ill. The septuplet parents from Iowa had 24 rotating shifts of volunteers helping them out when the kids were babies. (Of course it really grinds my butt when she talked about how thanks to the volunteers she got eight hours of sleep every night, how many parents ONE newborn get that luxury?) Sad thing is I'm sure she'll get the free house, the free stuff, the loads of volunteers, the tv and book deals and all that. She'll get millions just selling the first baby pictures.

[Mamacrat]

75. Video

The link above did not work for me for video. Here's one that does: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2009/02/today-exclusive.html

She really does come off as disturbed. She's figuring it all out and will be able to provide for them when she gets her degree? I think they said in counseling; would anyone hire this women to provide counseling to others?! Even so, without a PhD (maybe even with) she doesn't stand a chance of making very much. It's hard for her to accept help? Yet, she believes her friends, family and church will come through for her. Her own mother said she was going to be gone when she got home! I also find it hard to believe that she had to have that many embryos implanted to have one child, which she shouldn't have gone out of her way to have anyway. I think this interview really shows how much of a fantasy land she's living in. She's an insult to hardworking people (or well-meaning who are out of work) who need help.

[NYC_SKP]

78. I have a couple degrees and can barely pay for no children.

She's a slap in the face to all working americans and more, to all working parents.

Thank you for the link to the video.

:fistbump:

[Karenina]

88. She's a CIA plant.

:tinfoilhat:

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

You think I'm kidding??? Tightly clutched in the wind, :tinfoilhat:

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[XemaSab]

122. When she gets her DEGREE?

That was the part in the interview that FLOORED me.

You think you can go to school and have 14 little kids at the same time? I don't think so!

She's delusional.

[justjones]

134. Thanks for the link.

So she spends about 45 minutes a day holding each of the eight babies to foster connection and their growth. That's six hours that she could be spending holding one. Add to that the six kids already at home and I see that the neglect has already begun.

And she could hardly move her mouth from the collagen injections in her lips. That's money she needs to save for diapers and college educations.

The doctor who implanted her with all those embryos should have their license revoked. There is a reason humans beings aren't designed to have litters. It's enough work raising one with a partner. Pathetic.

[SoCalDem]

90. Name a single Mom who DOESN"T want to "provide herself" to her kids...

BUT most single Moms are too busy WORKING! ..working to SUPPORT those children they brought into the world..

this woman is CRAZY..

and she's using her little freak-show family to try to extort money from the public..:grr:

[NYC_SKP]

95. She's clever, no doubt about that.

She's in a church.

Claim's she's not on welfare (not on the roles anyway).

She talks about it being her personal choice, suggesting it's her right.

Etc., etc.

Clever, she can garner support from all parts of the political spectrum!

And you're right, it's all part of a design she has to extort.

It's a sad commentary on our culture that she can and probably will get away with it.

:mad:

[Mamacrat]

101. Welfare

When I was a caseworker if a woman applied for Medicaid and was eligible for a check and food stamps she had to take it. I had a couple of applicants who were upset that they had to take it when all they wanted was Medicaid. I can see the logic behind it in that if you have that little money then you need the money and food stamps to ensure healthy children who won't use as much Medicaid. So, I'm wondering if it's different now or in California or both? I can see if she and her children had been living with her parents and she had her worker's comp money coming in how she might have stayed off of it. Otherwise, I can't see how anyone who has this many children and no money isn't about to be on welfare in some form.

Back to the video... I was really taken by how much she seemed like a child. Her demeanor and what she said.

[NYC_SKP]

103. Ordinarily I wouldn't have an interest in this kind of story.

But I am compelled to see the full interview.

It's a trainwreck of a situation.

[shanti]

126. she learned this from "KON"

(Jon and Kate Gosselin) it's obviously worked so well for them that they have a brand new million+ dollar estate with acreage AND a new fence for their "privacy". and don't forget the free tummy tuck for kate, hair plugs for jon, teeth whitening for both, in addition to many pricey vacations they're received! their show makes me sick because the children are paying the price :grr: i can just see this happening with this loony woman!

[Generator]

93. My favorite part was about the sperm daddy "friend"

He's overwhelmed but she's "hoping" he will be in their lives someday.

What we all hope for our kids no?

It's so sad for those kids. Imagine being one of the first six-and how much attention you are going to get from ONE parent with that many kids under the age of SEVEN. YES, her oldest is SEVEN. That is what is insane. Nature might have made it possible to have 14 children-but the oldest few should be old enough to help out. That's how big families do it. Also they usually have a FATHER. It's so wrong to purposely bring that many children into the world knowing they will have no other parent.

[NYC_SKP]

98. But she's going to "give her SELF" to them...

That's clearly a gift that makes it all worth while for the little victims.

:sarcasm: :mad:

[Blaze Diem]

96. The Duggers should foster all 14 while she works full time to pay back the State of Cali.

Percent of TV proceeds should go to raise and educate the 14, through college.
The Dugger Family would barely notice the addition.
And they are really nice people. And they love to serve the Lord.
And they already have a TV show.

[kskiska]

108. Back surgery was recommended but she declined.

(snip)

She went back to work almost immediately after she was injured, but the pain grew and traveled down her leg and she began to experience numbness in her right foot, the documents state. Two months later, she was back on disability.

In the months after her injury, orthopedists recommended back surgery and injections of steroids into her lower back. But Suleman didn't want to undergo the treatments, saying the surgery seemed too risky. At one point, she rejected to have X-rays taken because she feared they would interfere with her fertility treatments.

"The patient is reluctant to have surgery. She desperately needs surgery," orthopedist Dr. Daniel Capen wrote in February 2000.

more…
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/06/earlyshow/health/main4779589_page2.shtml

[Gin]

111. shes going back to school and will use the day care there...

god....it is all so sad....she is delusional.

[Mamacrat]

124. But she won't accept "help."

She's going back to school and using the daycare who will have to hire probably two or more workers just to care for her children alone (that's a lot of help), she'll live on student loans, then try to get a job in a field that won't pay much (default on those loans?), and who would hire her for a counseling position with the poor choices she's made. She is very delusional.

[XemaSab]

125. Let's look at the logistics of this

If she gets a 20-passenger van it will be VERY questionably legal to have that many babies in there. She'd have to get 11 kids in there every day and get them all buckled in (11 because the oldest are going to school). She could probably carry two kids at a time, so that would be 6 trips to and from the car. Assuming 5 minutes per kid to get them from the house to the van and all buckled in, that's an hour to get them in the car. When she gets to the school, it will probably take less time to get them out of the van than they took going in, but she has to get the kids into the daycare, so let's say 45 minutes at the other end too.

This is close to two hours just getting them in and out of the van.

In the afternoon she has to put them back in the van, and take them out when she gets home.

Does esse really want to spend 4 damn hours a day getting the kids in and out of the van? :shrug:

And that's not even getting READY to go. :scared:

(All this is assuming her school is willing to take 11 kids in the daycare, which I doubt they will.)

And doesn't going to school involve study time? When is she going to study with all them kids around?

She's an idiot.

Let's just hope she stays in school long enough to learn what a crazy-ass bitch she is.

[justjones]

135. Don't forget her bad back.

She can't do all that heavy lifting in and out of the van because of the back injury, remember.
Plus, I don't believe her anyway. What kind of "counseling" degree is she earning? Earning a degree in psychological counseling means you have to be in some kind of counseling yourself. She's clearly failed on that account.
She should forget going back to school. She'll be confined to the house forever if she's the good mother she claims to be. What an idiot.

[mitchum]

121. Psychotic broodmare

[MilesColtrane]

127. The cost of raising a child to the age of 18, excluding any college tuition is....

$289,746.

She's got 14 kids, so 14 X 289,746 = $4.05 million

The only way she'll be able to provide for those kids is if she gets a job that pays over $225,000 a year.

Good luck with all that.

At least the Duggars appear to be able to support their tribe financially.

[Pastiche423]

129. A preview of Nadya Suleman's interview with Ann Curry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_8sEI8yv80

[PylesMalfunction]

137. Good lord

I have 14 cats and I realize that THAT is nuts.

[NYC_SKP]

138. She gave up her "right" to have children as surely as a convict gives up the right to vote.

After they've been committed, they've lost some rights due to bad CHOICES and BEHAVIORS>

The same is true of the drunk who drives and gives up their right to drive.

I'm fine with this one losing her right to keep her kids.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

139. She reminds me of the people who hoard animals

you know, the houses with 50 cats and 30 dogs pooping on the floor, because the owner "loves animals"?

[ribrepin]

149. What I found creepy was that she didn't seem to have a plan for feeding them

Just that she would be with them. How does one feed eight special needs infants? She didn't even seem to realize that she needed a plan to feed them. I bet her Mom and Dad have done all the childcare to this point while she goes to school and gets lip injections.

[rainbow4321]

150. I'm assuming since she did her first interview for free

That her phone is not exactly ringing off the hook with paying interviews/photo ops/company donations. Good. I cannot imagine any company wanting the publicity of condoning this freak show by giving her what she probably wants...money/housing/lifetime supply of baby/kid stuff.

Anyone notice her "play the victim" card?? She said that if it was a "married couple" who did this that no one would have cared or been judging.

[bridgit]

153. She delivered at Kaiser Permanente, a facility that my friend could never get...

authorization from or through in spite of his partner's full coverage; to have a bone spur removed from his knee cap causing him to hobble in pain for months before being forced into a private practice that resolved it after 30min of out-patient procedure. Another friend, long time theater associate; had a double hernia he was unable to receive authorization for in time and his guts nearly fell out in a meeting and he had to be gurneyed out and THEN they operated but they botched it and had to open him back up due to raggedy hap-hazard procedure and the infection that followed, I'm sure that isn't the case in every case...:):(

Ms. Suleman's medical team, on the other hand, should have offered specific/timely counseling for her procedure but in either event they should have encouraged her imo to rather not attempt satiate her obsessive-compulsive musings regarding the lives of children

We know a couple that has had in-vitro, he is a doctor she in another aspect of medicine so they knew. Three attempts, two miscarriages, but eventually three fraternal triplet boys...they have since split up.

While the in-vitro process is understood it is expensive. They're building a HUGE Kaiser Permanente facility not far from here. HMO's are becoming like cathedrals of non-authorization and specious medical procedures. Setting aside for a moments Ms. Suleman's life experiences; I really have a bad feeling about KP & other HMO's dragging their feet on bone spurs and MIR's, to promote far more expensive procedures via poster people looking for love in what appears to be most of the wrong places but hey!.......

They say she has an agent, and her aunt says the offers are rolling in so: it is what it is :shrug:

[NYC_SKP]

154. So, turns out she gets food stamps and SSI for 3 kids, but she says...

that she doesn't get welfare, hints that she wouldn't take it.

Strictly speaking, I suppose that's honest if she doesn't take local welfare, just federal funds.

I still think that, after thorough examination, she should lose the kids.

[Blue_Tires]

157. ttt