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We're watching a President get manhandled by Congress. Long time since we've seen the like.

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 03:35 PM
Original message
We're watching a President get manhandled by Congress. Long time since we've seen the like.
Edited on Thu Feb-05-09 03:37 PM by WilliamPitt
We spent six years with a president who could ram whatever he wanted through congress. He had Hastert and Frist and DeLay, we had a bag of doorknobs and a lot of deep sighs. We spent the next two years watching the GOP minority filibuster everything in Congress except the sink in the men's room. Again, doorknobs and sighs.

It was the utterly imperial nature of the Bush presidency that I loathed and feared the most. He did great damage to the constitution, and I have been deeply afraid he may have irreparably undone the separation of powers doctrine. He ignored subpoenas, spied on everyone, lied us into wars...know what? Fuck it, I'm not writing all that shit again, you know full well what he did.

An imperial presidency is anathema to the rule of constitutional law in America, but that's what we had. The Executive, flush with vastly expanded and not yet legally challenged powers, was handed to Obama, and I've been waiting to see what happens next.

And in a weird way, all this bedlam around the stimulus is a tonic.

Think about it.

The Executive Branch is getting kicked around by the Legislative Branch.

Wha?

A year ago, we'd have been dancing in the streets. Right?

This thing will pass in whatever form, and smart money says we'll be seeing Stimulus II coming to a theater near you at some point. Everybody in the House, the Senate and the White House got all geeked up because the whole government just got turned inside out. They got spooked by the lights, and the Republicans have ALWAYS been better at the to-the-knife media warfare than us. A lot of the stuff getting cut will come back again in different legislation.

The Executive Branch is getting kicked around by the Legislative Branch. It'll pass, but the separation of powers is in effect. That gladdens me. deeply.

Buy the ticket, take the ride.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yep. It's harder when it's our guy taking the flak
but, a huge relief, agreed. The law has to be longer than the president's arm.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
32. Its not harder for me
For good or bad when it comes right down to it they are all our guys.

Don
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. You can have Inhofe.
:evilgrin:
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
39. Yeah, I've got real mixed feelings about this. It's different when it's our guy.
Where was all this when bush was around? Or was everybody just too busy genuflecting to notice?

:banghead:

Gotta admit it - I wish Obama would have grabbed some of the power left to The Executive, and jammed the stimulus package down Congress's throat before anybody had a chance to get used to their new positioning. So I have a double standard. So I have no interest in this bipartisan shit as long as republi-CONS are still trying to kick stand in our guys' faces. So all I want to give the republi-CONS is a knuckle sandwich. So what if all I want at this point is payback and tit-for-tat?

Love me ANYWAY.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. Okay!
lol

:hi:
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. :D
:hi:
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. The only senator so far with the nads to tell them where to take it is a woman,
Senator Barbara Boxer. I loved the verbal wedgie she gave to Phil Graham today.
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Andy823 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I would love to see
Boxer take over for Harry!
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yes, and as a senior senator she deserves the job, but she gets overlooked
all the time. They probably would offer it to Dianne Fein$tein first because she is seen as moderate.
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. We have know for a long time that Reid and Pelosi needed to go.
Our President is in a world of hurt. Pelosi refused to impeach and now she sits on her throne shooting the beaver to the rest of us. Sorry but this is way out of control.
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Andy823 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I agree, but
How do we get rid of them? Can the president fire them, or are they there no matter what? If there is a way, I would love to see them go!
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. The internet helps fund the election of patriots.
Unfortunately, Pelosi sneaked in under Obama's robe. If not for the distraction of the Presidential election I think she would have had a bit of trouble being re-elected. I think some of the actions we are seeing are bordering on treason and that should be dealt with in the courts.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. "I think she would have had a bit of trouble being re-elected"
Pelosi had primary opposition from a Dem and electoral opposition from Cindy.

Still, she won easily.

Frankly, the voters in her district would have done the nation a favor if they'd elected the puke instead.

We'd have one fewer seats in the House, but Nancy couldn't be in charge of it any more.
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I hear that.
Nancy and Harry and Joe could spare us all and take the bus out of town. A Republican with a conscious would be better that all three but , I think they are pretty hard to find.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Even one (mind you, ONE) more BAD puke would be worth it to get Nancy out of the speaker's chair
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. "Pelosi sneaked in under Obama's robe"
Eh...?

She's been in the House since 1987, and became Speaker in 2006. I don't think Obama had even declared yet.

Just sayin'.
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. My point was that organized opposition was impossible
because people were so busy getting Obama elected. To my mind Pelosi would have merited folks from across the country campaigning against her, on her home turf. Unfortunately we were all trying to make sure that Obama got elected. And don't worry, I would have loved some out of state help to save Ohio from Voinovich but no such luck. Our bad choices have ramifications on a national level just as CA sending Nancy back to DC does.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. what is she doing?
I don't understand what you think she's doing wrong. The bill passed the House right?

And Reid says he has the votes and they're going to vote tonight. That's good, right?
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. With a lick of the lips...
'Impeachment is off the table.' We are drowning in criminals in our government and she gave the OK to those at the top. We will all pay for this until the last days of our existence.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. why single her out?
do you also not support Obama because he did not support impeachment as Senator, and has not started investigations as president?

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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Because the minute she became Speaker she told us all how it would be.
Remember...Impeachment is off the table! Followed closely by a hug from *!
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. ok, so what about Obama?
how is he any better than Pelosi on impeaching him and hugging him?
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Obama was not the quarterback in that game.
Obama will not be able to ignore the war crimes. He will have to address them. Time will tell.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #36
49. Pelosi was not the quarterback either
It was a decision made by the party leadership as a whole, for many reasons, reasons that have been argued about endlessly these last few years on DU.

Singling out Pelosi to hate on for this is, at best, intellectually lazy.
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WI_DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. But Obama needs to start kicking back.
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libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. What?
No, how high? When asked to jump? No ring to kiss, no bowing, no scraping? No I'm a 'WAR' President'? No accusation of, why do you hate America, unpatriotic, sidin' with the terraists? Peculiar. Very weird.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
9. And I think Pres. Obama welcomes the legislative tug-o-war, as part and parcel
of the process.

I'm glad to see he met with Senators sans legislative staff. They had the chance, and the responsibility, to make the case themselves. As he had for his case.

I see he's doing a prime time press conference on the issue Monday (?) and perhaps a national address.

No one will agree with all points of a final bill, but there will be a final bill. And perhaps the role of co-equal branches of government will reenter the public consciousness.

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SalviaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thank you for the perspective. k&r
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
11. we're actually seeing a president manhandled by congress and their media
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yup.
They do tend to travel together.

:grr:
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. Wrong..
did you see the speech he gave today at the energy department its on msnbc..
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I did
Edited on Thu Feb-05-09 04:02 PM by WilliamPitt
But it's not reflected in the bill. They're cutting a deal to whallop most of the $150 billion in education funding off the end of this thing. The tax cuts are all staying.

We'll get the education funding in Stimulus II, I pray, but don't pretend Congress didn't run this thing through a thresher. They did.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
16. I wish I could see it in such a positive way as you do, Will...but I don't.
Edited on Thu Feb-05-09 04:14 PM by tom_paine
I hope your interpretation turns out to be the correct one.

But I see no change in a Bushified Congress (and yes, it seems quite Bushified, no matter how much of a Democratic majority we seem to get) assauting a "Democrat" President.

I just see the whole Bush Lie Machine switching modes back to "Clinton".

I see a Bushified Congress once again behaving as if the American Voters do not matter, as if the votes are never really counted or something and some folks know it.

I see the same tired Toady M$M, using their same tired Bushigandist tricks to melt and shape reality like mozarella cheese using the time-tested extremely succesful Bushiganda methods to buold and maintain yet another BIG LIE.. I see the insane Nazi-like zealots of the Republian Pay Korps creating the illusion that they are everywhere and in the vast majority, instead of the opposite.

And I see our Democrats reacting in the same clueless way. I keep hoping for Obama, and maybe this Double Secret Probation Plan of his is going to work in the long run.

I have been talking myself up, trying to hope, but reality is cold and iron-hard.

And the reality is that everything has so seamlessly shifted back to the comfort of Clinton Mode (by the M$M and Repugs...no I'm not talking about sex) is frightening in the extreme.

In America, no can can hear you scream...
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Who said it was positive?
It just is.

;)
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
22. On a positive note though, we have very "Dry Powder"
:shrug:
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. Apparently, the only thing that's good for
is "taking a powder"
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
25. But the only way to ensure that the "Imperial Presidency" never comes back to haunt us in the future
Edited on Thu Feb-05-09 04:21 PM by AndyA
is to prosecute those who broke the law, and violated the Constitution.

Without prosecution, there is no incentive to not do it again. And you know with as many stupid, Limpballs-loving, hatred-filled, uninformed people around as there are, we'll have another Republican in the White House at some point. We need to be certain the next one doesn't see the Bush II era as a green light to do it all again. :eyes:
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peace13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Yes!! n/t
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
28. The last time I seen this is when the democratic congress did this to Clinton for two years and
Edited on Thu Feb-05-09 04:44 PM by LaPera
then the republican congress did the same to the democratic Clinton in his last six years.

Why do the Dems allow republicans to call the shots even when the Dems are the majority party, the republicans always fuck with the Democrats, always threatening them and the Dems never fight back and call the republicans bluff. (Like any bully the republicans are more afraid than they want anyone to know and just need to be stood up to be exposed).

The Democrats are so fucking afraid, STILL, of the republicans media machine....because they are isolated in that DC bubble that the republican media controls....

The republicans have even got rid of the only progressive radio station in DC this week!

But, outside of DC the Dems better see it's entirely different sentiments, the opposite of the bullshit of DC - We can all see the Dems with big majority numbers, spineless and caving to the republicans and their DC media machine!

As always, the Democrats allow the republicans to force the Dems to eat their own.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
33. It's too bad they only do it when the president of their party, though.
Where were their balls two years ago?
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
35. I'm sorry Mr. Pitt, but I must respectfully disagree.
Edited on Thu Feb-05-09 05:54 PM by Edweird
What I see happening is merely an extension of "it's ok if you are a republican". Bush 1 - not manhandled. Clinton - manhandled. Bush 2 - not manhandled. Obama - manhandled. I detect a pattern and it's not one I like.....
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #35
45. Bush1 was kinda manhandled
The Democratic congress convinced him to support a tax increase, and then Bill Clinton used that to run against him.

Also we forget the good parts of the Bush Presidency. That is, to some extent, when Democrats took over the Senate in mid 2001, very little of the Bush agenda got passed. Almost none of it would have passed if not for 9/11.

But I agree that Pitt has mis-read it. What we saw in the Bush Presidency was not so much the executive branch manhandling Congress, as it was the Republicans (Congressional and executive) manhandling the Democrats. The Bush administration would not have been what it was without the Republican Congress there to rubber stamp it and cover it, and after 2006, the Republican Senators to fillibuster and uphold vetoes.

The other trouble is that the devil has all the good music. Republicans promise free money, essentially bribe the voters. Democrats don't have the guts to stand in the way of something popular like that. Republicans promote war - America is gonna kick some a$$ and again, that is the popular proposal that Democrats don't dare oppose (at least many of them). FDR-type stimulus is not so popular after 30 years of the President, politicians, and media all railing against 'government waste'. Fiscally responsible, 'era of Big Government is over', middle-clase-tax-cut Clinton did not help our side either.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
37. Rs free to fuck everything up with Ds helping, as usual. Rationalize, much?
Edited on Thu Feb-05-09 06:21 PM by JackRiddler
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
38. Watch and learn young padawan. n/t
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
40. he's fighting back...great speech at the dems conference
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-09 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
41. Quite right. Not since Carter in fact.
Oh, wait...
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tomreedtoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
44. And here's the destination to your ticket ride.


Don't say you weren't warned. And if that didn't take, here's another warning:

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deaniac21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
47. Finally, this is what real leadership is about.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-09 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
48. I think Obama handled this poorly. 2 weeks ago, he should have addressed the nation and explained
Edited on Fri Feb-06-09 11:14 AM by OmmmSweetOmmm
the stimulus bill and even have it posted on a website explaining it so there could be no Repuke spin.
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