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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:31 AM
Original message
Panic among H-1B visa layoffs
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 01:33 AM by Liberal_in_LA
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_11593500?source=most_view...

Layoffs mean more than lost wages for H-1B visa holders

By Pete Carey

Mercury News
Posted: 02/01/2009 05:00:00 PM PST

For the two out-of-work engineers, it's a race against time. They've lost their Silicon Valley jobs and need to quickly find others at a time when companies everywhere are tightening their belts.

Both are Indians whose advanced degrees were earned at American universities. And both are facing the inflexible rules of their H-1B work visas.

Technically, as soon as they lost their jobs, they were required to leave the country. In reality, they can probably wing it for a week or two, but not much longer.

This stark dilemma is being repeated with increasing frequency across Silicon Valley, according to immigration specialists, as companies downsize to weather a punishing downturn. It's a small number compared with the layoffs of H-1B visa holders during the dot-com crash. But the downturn has sent a wave of concern through the community of immigrant workers who hold the visa, which companies use to hire skilled noncitizens.

Though there is no official tally of visa holders who have been laid off, "It's happening every day," said San Jose immigration lawyer Indu Liladhar-Hathi.

"If they don't have work, they're in trouble," said Gabriel Jack, also a San Jose immigration lawyer. "They've got to get out" of the country, he said. "That's the toughest part about being an H-1B.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
1. Are they leaving on corporate jets
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 01:36 AM by Why Syzygy
or commercial? :adiosmofo:

Let us NEVER forget GW's last concern as he left DC was, don't let the economic crisis hurt the IMMIGRANTS!

edit to add: Anyone thinking of hiring them at this point needs to be examined by a professional.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
69. Yes, you get issued a corporate jet with your visa.
edit to add: Anyone thinking of hiring them at this point needs to be examined by a professional.

Why? I've worked with some absolute dumbasses on H1-B before, but I've also worked with some really good engineers. Pretty much the same as my experiences with Americans.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #69
79. The visa situation
and things are going to get worse.

There were stories about Citibank using corporate jets to fly their H1-B employees into the country.
Therefore, I was implying, will they be flying them home.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
2. bye bye
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Ioo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
75. Agreed, SHOULD NOT HIRE ANY OF THEM AT THE MOMENT
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 09:23 AM by Ioo
I work in the High Tech field in DC area, and I know and work with MANY people on H1-B vistas. I think right now, they SHOULD NOT be able to find a new job, because there are SO MANY Americans that are out of work can do the jobs they are doing. I am not saying we should send the ones that have a job home, I am saying that as new positions open up, they should not be able to get the job. If they get let go, it is time to go home.

I have at least 10 friends on H1-B... they know the deal when they come here.

The H1-B visa system was to fill a hole in the workforce, I think that the Bush Recession has filled the hole.
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lightningandsnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #75
107. Hmm. What are they supposed to do, then?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. Cry me a river.
What did they expect? In a down economy people lose their jobs. Pretty unbelievable to me that people who were hired as cheap replacement workers are stunned that the companies who hired them are hanging them out to dry.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. Lot of harsh replies here....
These are humans enticed and used just like you, and by the same system you despise. Think and direct your hate were it belongs.
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shari Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I wonder
if when they come here and are trained by an employee, do they realize that they are taking that persons job? Probably not.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Again, identify the players and the teams....
We and they are labor. Discord between us benefits the oppressors. We and they both react to economic imperatives. Others manipulate the imperatives to both our detriments.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Exactly!
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Re-reading my posts it sounds very Zen...
...and I'm not a Buddhist..but it is time to look very closely into the elements of class war.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #9
77. Or, perhaps, it just sounds very detached,
like the thoughts of some safe, secure person who has no skin in the game and thus finds it easy to get all zen about it.
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shari Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. money.
Everyone is doing it for money. The only person who is being hurt here is the one who is losing their job.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Two have been hurt.
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 02:28 AM by catnhatnh
The H1B and the person he replaced. One party has benefited both times.

On edit, one party has benefited THREE times...hiring an American for profit, replacing the American with an H1B for profit, and laying of the H1B (with disastrous personal cost) to cut costs...
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. what you said.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Thank you!
Immigrants don't "take your jobs", folks. Your employers do. Just like you, the immigrants need to eat, to buy laundry detergant, put gas in the car, whatever. Most of them are in a worse situation than you are and yes, will jump for a lower price.

But htye are not the problem. Your boss who ditched you and set out lures for those immigrants, he's the problem. Because he'll ditch them too, and set out new lures at even lower wages.

Native labor, foreign labor, and immigrant labor are all on the same side here. What's needed is solidarity , not anger and division
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shari Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. so you think they were 'tricked'
You don't think they knew they were putting someone 'who is probably better off than them' out of work by doing the job for less? Sure they did. The person being displaced is the victim. But hey, we don't need a home or food or shoes for our kids.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Actually I said they were "enticed" into obeying an economic imperative...
And many in this country are about to learn what an economic imperative is...See: Les Miserable.

Yes...it is EXACTLY those two guys screwing you and your friends, never the people who make the rules. And I dislike people who think they replaced their "Betters"....
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shari Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. so..do I understand you correctly
It's a 'dog-eat-dog' world out there so that makes it ok ? It's ok to under-cut wages and put someone else out of work because you were 'enticed'? How does that make the enticee any better than the enticer?
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. But,
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 03:08 AM by Why Syzygy
Just like you, the immigrants need to eat, to buy laundry detergant, put gas in the car, whatever.

And it has to be done in America! Don't they sell detergent in India?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #26
45. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #26
56. American money buys a lot of detergent in India
Especially when there's no work for you in India.

It's part of the luring I was talking about.

I swear, to hear some of you guys talk, it's like you think the evil brown people gather in their underground mud-people lair and plot how to manipulate your bosses into firing you so they can do your job for more hours at less pay with no benefits, mwahahahaha.

The problem lies in your boss. Not in the people his greedy ass wants to hire after ditching you.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #56
89. We get it. It's the bosses fault.
Meanwhile, our country has been flooded with cheap unskilled labor and we've been bleeding high-skilled jobs. Currency differentials in other countries put workers in high wage countries at a tremendous disadvantage. Yes, workers of the world should band together in a global labor movement. But until then we need to put Americans to work and right now you have corporatists and misguided progressives screaming about a Buy American clause in the stimulus package. Chances are good it will be stripped and MY tax dollars will be used to create jobs in other countries. And you can bet that a year or two from now we will discover that contractors being paid with stimulus funds are hiring undocumented workers. Just watch.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. Because the "enticee" wants to eat...
...and the enticer just wants a higher profit margin. And one of the two arranged the dogfight. Is this somehow difficult to follow? is one of us truly this obtuse?
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shari Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. And what.....
To hell with American who wants to eat?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
46. Don't you know that nonAmericans are supposed to starve themselves
rather than compete with Americans, either here or abroad? :sarcasm:
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #46
87. And don't you know that Americans are supposed to cheerfully step aside
When a foreign worker is willing to do their job at a lower price. I mean, if you're an American you can always just retrain, right? Even when you're 50. :sarcasm:

Why is every other country in the world's economy America's responsibility?
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
53. No, I don't
I said they were lured.

You realize that unless you were present at the founding of your company, you likely displaced someone who was getting better pay and benefits than you?

If you're jobless and hungry, that lower-paying job that just opened up (putting another guy like you on the street) looks kind of good, doesn't it? How soon before you're replacing the immigrant who replaced you, but at an even lower wage with worse benefits?

That's the game being played here. Make Joe angry at Jose, just so long as neither of them realize they should be angry at Boring Manager Rob.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #53
141. We should also be angry at so-called progressives who are cheap labor shills
There's a bunch of them on this board.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. I agree 100% with what you say
However, when we propose going after the boss, we still get accused of being "anti immigration" or "anti trade" or "xenophobic" by the corporatist tools here.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. You're pro-labor?
I see these people as being similar to scabs. Union busters.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #18
51. I am indeed
And really, what unions are they busting? What strikes are they scabbing?

None and none because there no longer is such a thing. Thank you, Reagan voters!

Now, the way I figure it, we work with what we have. Beaner-Bashing might have worked fine in the 30's or whenever, when the US was basically an island unto itself. Unfortunately, the movement hasn't progressed much past this point and many pro-labor people, perhaps because of the dearth of information or activity in what little of the labor movement actually remains, cling desperately to this old standby of "blame the immigrant"

Fuck that.

Things are set up now to actively undermine 100% local labor movements. The bosses have globalized. We should too. The immigrant worker, the worker overseas, they are getting as fucked as we are, by the same people. Those doing the fucking then tell us we should hate the other people getting screwed. They get those people to do the same to us.

The whole point of this exercise is to keep the workers pissed at each other instead of thinking about what's REALLY going on.

Now maybe you don't agree, I don't care. I believe that thanks to whoever's running the respective governments of our nations, the workers of the world have been tossed shoulder to shoulder with one another. Labor should take advantage of this rather than disparaging it.You want to keep your job safe? Don't blame you. Fund or somehow support people trying to build labor movements in Bangladesh or wherever so that job isn't exported. Want Mexicans to stay in Mexico? Do the same thing there, fight to improve worker's rights and benefits there.

Selfishness is why this mess exists in the first place.
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shari Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. The employer is not the one taking and doing my job and getting my wages
the immigrant is....the employer just makes it easy for him to do it. Convenient for the employer and the immigrant...not so convenient for the person losing their job.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
42. Think about what you just said.
"My employer just makes it easy for him"

Yeah. He cans your ass to save a buck. The immigrant worker didn't make your employer ditch you. Your employer, being a greedy fuck trying to pad his own bank at the expense of both of you - by ditching you and making the new guy come in at "new, improved wages" is the real problem in this picture.

You see, the situation is backwards. People should not be competing for jobs. Employers should be competing for workers. Unfortunately for you and your grossly underpaid replacement, the system has been rigged to screw both of you into thinking you are enemies.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. India is hiring
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
44. absolutely right.
i can't despise those who are just trying to make a living. that's what i do.

question: what if they don't have the money to leave? will the INS round them up and pay their airfare to go home? will they be forced to lose everything they own? i think if i was in that position i would divest myself of all i could and send all my money back home while i looked for a job. then if i didn't get one i would let the host country pay my way back home. what the hell.

another thought. perhaps they already have their tickets. years ago a man i knew was going to tahiti to live. he was not however allowed to buy a one-way ticket. i don't know if that still goes on or if it's a policy practiced in the US.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. I am directing my hatred at the right people
The greedy scumsucking corporatists who exploit people for a profit. It's the whole point of the H1B visa program - to pay people less money for jobs that used to pay well. However, I'm not terribly sympathetic with the visa-holders portrayed in that article. I find it hard to believe that these highly educated and intelligent people can't figure out what's going on. There was this definite sense of entitlement with both of them, as if they are somehow more entitled to a job because they face deportation. Well, excuse me guys, but when you came here on a visa that was attached to a job you knew those were the breaks.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Actually they seem no more clueless than many Americans with advanced degrees...
...who are shocked by becoming superfluous. But don't miss the delicious irony near the end of the article were one of the applicants may be able to stay in the US because he has a shot at being hired by a German firm. That said I have sympathy for both.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. damn straight
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. My skills "aren't really needed"
"It's a sad situation because politicians cannot distinguish a guy with skills so badly needed in this country from people whose skills are really not needed," said Vish Mishra, president of the Silicon Valley networking group The Indus Entrepreneur. "The entire business community has been talking about it, but this is something that Congress can't come to grips with."

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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. I know so many American engineers
who CANNOT FIND WORK IN THEIR OWN DAMN COUNTRY - I won't cry for the people who came here and took their jobs
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shari Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. The ones doing the 'taking of jobs'
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 03:07 AM by shari
know EXACTLY what they are doing. They are not victims. Do they need a job, yes, but don't take someone elses job by knowingly undercutting their wages.

edit for typo
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Do you think their advanced degrees
were paid for by American employers?
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exboyfil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
52. Actually they were more likely payed for by the U.S./state
taxpayer. Back in the 1990s my employer was going belly up, and I had tried to get a research/teaching assistantship to support M.S. work in Mechanical or Biomedical Engineering from two different state schools in my state. I had been working for over six years in the state and paying a bunch of taxes. I also had been taking a bunch of courses (both M.S. Engineering and MBA)and doing quite well in them while working full time.

I tried for over a year, and I could not get an assistantship from either school. I admit I did not have the strongest undergraduate transcript, but I had since proved myself with both work and schooling since then.

I found it interesting that almost all of the assistantships in my area of study when I finally landed at a University (after getting layed off and going to graduate school on my own dime) went to foreigners. Some facts about these assistantships - in addition to paying a nice stipend (it would have been worth more than my wife made in her part time job), tuition is also paid. It gets even better the department only has to pay the school in state tuition.

Well I eventually got my degree, and I ended up getting the highest or second highest grade in several of my classes. I still resent the fact that foreigners could get assistantships while a resident of the state who paid signficant taxes for six years to the state (as well as many years after that) was unable to get an assistantship.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. And so, they
were probably here for about six years on student visas. These are so many end runs around securing citizenship. I don't hate foreigners (as some are contending). I just expect a level playing field. As you found, it isn't.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. I'm sick of these apologists
they're still doing it knowing what it's done to the economy and the future of America - fuck them all
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. Who let them come here....
Hint:politicians..

Why'd the politicians make it legal?...
Hint:Corporations gave them money to do it.

I didn't ask you to cry for anyone...I suggested you find the root of the problem and address that.

The same people who introduced "scabs" to break unions introduced H1Bs to break degreed workers and both moves were designed to build "camp color wars" between people with equal needs and skill sets by creating a surplus of workers to depress wages. Remember that in most cases scabs were recruited from a lower economic class as were H1Bs to drive a wedge between what should be a solid bloc of concerns.
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shari Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Well,
Most people consider what the 'scabs' do to be unethical, but at least they weren't brought in from another country.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Well were down to it at last Shari...
...it was the "furriners" after all. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you...
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shari Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Don't even pull that.
They WERE brought in from another country.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. AS were the Irish, and the Italians, and the Chinese...
and every other ethnic group when cheap labor was needed BY CAPITALISTS (Read:corporations). So the question I guess is did your people come over on the Mayflower to exploit, or later to toil, or are you full blooded Native American?
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shari Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Hey I have an idea
Why don't you just scoot over and give your job to someone from India, huh? That would be fair right? So what if you can't find another job...they need to eat....
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Hey -I have the idea that you are a xenophobe....
and deficient in understanding the basics of class warfare...but go right ahead and believe that all that lies between you and your American dream are me and two other hapless and hosed members of the exploited class.
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shari Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Sorry .to dissappoint you....I'm just a simple old American
who cares about Americans having jobs and being able to eat.
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shari Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. This topic is not about Immigrants....
It's about people who are brought in to work.
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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. You come off just like someone who never built anything.
My people were granted a charter here from Queen Elizabeth I, along with some other sea captains, for exploring the world for her and fighting the Spanish Armada. Take it up with her, if her title was no good.

They're the people who built something here for ingrates like you to rip off.

H1-Bs are exactly like scabs, who are not and never were, on the side of labor. You spin some silly bullshit, but nobody with half a brain is buying it.
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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. As if that somehow makes it ok. (hint: NOT)
These globalists all have a hidden agenda. It's very interesting how so many DUers are anti-labor and pro-bank.

No wonder Dems have problems.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
48. No, they're not human, according to "normal Americans"...
Once you realize that, everything else they say becomes much clearer.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
71. Hatred of immigrants seems to be the exciting new pastime on DU.
Nobody has ever actually explained to me why it's OK for Americans to get visas to work overseas, but it's BAD for non-Americans to get visas to work here.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #71
91. Show me a country that hires Americans on visas instead of their own citizens.
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 11:07 AM by TahitiNut
I must have missed the news ... where is an American worker CHEAPER to hire than an unemployed citizen??? Please... tell me which country seeks to import lower-paid workers from the U.S.



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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #91
101. THIS is the crux of the matter. Those visas were supposed to be
to fill jobs that COULD NOT be filled here at home.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #101
109. And 95% of those were sheer fraud.
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 12:36 PM by TahitiNut
As a manager in Silicon Valley, I saw it up close and personal for MANY years. At one time, I was dating a Japanese national with an H-1B visa and our closest friends were Canadians (a German-Candian married to a Chinese-Canadian) both working in Silicon Vally on foreign worker visas (NAFTA-type). Guess who was laid off? Me. I was as skilled or more than they both in their areas as well as others ... with more experience. (But I was 'older' and had a higher salary.) Blame them personally? Nope. Blame the corrupt system? Ubetcha.

I can't begin to count the number of H-1B visa workers (and other visas) that kept jobs they did (for less pay) while American citizens with equivalent skills were fired.



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GinaMaria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #71
137. Just want to clarify terms
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 01:45 PM by GinaMaria
Are people who work on Visas immigrants? Is there a distinction between someone who has immigrated and someone on a temporary work visa? Just curious, because when I read the posts here, there are a lot of comments toward H-1B visa holders but not so toward immigrants.

H-1B visas are temporary and valid only for a particular job, correct? Do H-1B workers consider themselves to have immigrated from their country of origin? Is this a path to immigration or even citizenship or is it limited to the specific job? It seems to me most posters are questioning the conditions under which an H-1B visa holder could or should work in this country as specified by the rules.

If H-1B visas are issued to people with skills that are in short supply and high demand, then is it logical to withdraw the visas when there is a large supply of people with that skill and decreasing demand?

edit for spellcheck
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
86. Whether or not it is the visa holder's fault...
... the solution is still gonna feel like punishment.

The US economy can't keep up with the number of americans entering the workforce. Immigration (from all sources) serves only to depress wages... which is exactly what it is intended to do.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
88. Our "immigration system" is little more than Trafficking In Human Labor ...
... from H-1B visas to "guest workers" to open borders and "illegal aliens" it favors the Strong Back For Sale over the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free." How many are admitted from Haiti? From the African subcontinent?

It's an abomination that demeans EVERYONE.
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 04:39 AM
Response to Original message
43. I am an American living in a foreign country employed by a foreign government
Those are the risks you take when working overseas. If the host countries economy goes in the crapper, there is nothing you can do.

I feel sorry for the people, but still they took a risk. They were not forced into it.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #43
49. Shame on you for such a rational post. That's not acceptable when you're
discussing immigration and labor.

All American's who want jobs back are BAD!!!!11 All those that came here legally and illegally are GOOD!!!

:sarcasm:
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #43
73. I feel sorry for them too.
I was in much a similar situation, and I knew the risks full well. However, I think "sayonara, assholes" is rather insensitive, and that's what half of the posts in this thread amount to.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #43
82. Thank you!!!!!
I'd reach through this puter and kiss you if I could! :applause:
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 04:50 AM
Response to Original message
47. Well, that should make "normal Americans" very happy.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 04:56 AM
Response to Original message
50. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 05:08 AM
Response to Original message
55. I'm glad they're going
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 05:12 AM by Divine Discontent
these people made a lot more than the people in their countries who do the same work there - they know the risks of coming over here, they had it good for a while, and great for them, I'm sure they're sad to leave - if they lose their jobs, they gotta get back home though.

But hopefully, through American public outcry, these companies will hire Americans if they hire back for those positions again. Remember, these aren't customer service employees being paid very little in the Philippines to do Sprint customer service, for example (which is laughable as one after another tries to attempt to comprehend what the problem is, while they waste your day away), these are people with Visas who come here and make pretty good money, and send an average of half of it back home - I'd rather an American worker get that pay and spend it here.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 05:38 AM
Response to Original message
57. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. "For any who want to see just how shitty Americans are." That's written like you're not an American.
"USA. Woohoo."

Don't come at us with your Anti-American crap. Guessing with your acrid tone that you work for a tech firm in the NW, and are afraid you'll lose your Visa. Hey, it's a rough economy, don't take it out on Americans - we're suffering after 8 hellish years of B*sh. Oh, and welcome to ignore.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. HAHAHAHA!!!!!
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 07:04 AM by BlooInBloo
This might just be the Bestest Response EVAH!!!!

HAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAAHAAHAAA!!!!!!


EDIT: HAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!!

EDIT: For any who don't know: I'm a "normal" American; that is, white. I'm a happily employed mathematician/programmer, and have never in my life been worried about being laid off. Indeed, my job security just increased by orders of magnitude (from superhigh to SUPERDUPERHIGH), since almost the only edumacated people in this country will now leaving. Hell, I might even end up making more money as a result of this.

But the "FOREIGNER GO HOME!!!" bigotry will always prevent me from resting easy with this - no matter how well it works for me on the books.

It's laughable because "normal" stupid Americans seem to think THEY'LL be getting this high-education-requiring jobs. Let me know how that goes for y'all.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #60
104. You're unbelievable.
First you call Americans shitty, then you call them stupid.

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #57
65. How shitty Americans are, WTF is wrong with you?
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 08:30 AM by DainBramaged
God, you've made some dumb-ass comments, but harassing US because we want to protect OUR jobs and not the rights of Foreigners to take them is just ignorant.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. Hush. I'm busy holding on to my visa.
:rofl:
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #57
105. I have to wonder what the reaction would be if
the people being discussed were Mexican and not Indian?

Good lord, this place makes me sick sometimes.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
58. And I suppose we have to pay their way home?
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
61. I assume they knew the terms when they signed up for the visas.
No? :shrug: I definitely sucks for them, but they chose to take that risk when they came on an H-1B to begin with.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Everyone knows there is a risk when taking a job - do we then lack sympathy for the unemployed?
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. You're joking, right?
"Everyone" doesnt take jobs where they agree that losing the job means leaving the country. They signed up for the deal theyre getting. Sucks for them - as I said - but they chose it.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #62
67. Only regular 'murikkkans matter. The sooner you learn that, the more you'll appreciate DU.
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 09:02 AM by BlooInBloo
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. Don't spout that "Citizen of the World" crap
Because there is no such thing. What does your passport say? Assuming you have one?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #72
81. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #72
140. I see he's still busy championing cheap labor at the expense of 'shitty unintelligent' Americans
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 01:47 PM by Divine Discontent
Some of those who work and are paid nicely for crunching numbers ALWAYS act like utter morons (and as they say, mathematicians go "mad" at a higher rate than other people). A well paid finance guy on a hybrid car site I visited mocked the cheapest bare bones cars that are hybrids and said fortunately for him, he makes 6 figures so he'd never have to settle for one of those cheap models - I found out he just lost his job. Maybe he will reconsider his arrogant attitude now? I haven't heard one person say any of the crap several have accused us of on here (racism, bigotry), in fact, they're putting some really ugly words out there that THEIR brains come up with. We all keep saying we're glad to see them go back home and hope that restrictions will be put in place to prevent the further erosion of our workforce to cheap labor - as I said before - there's an ENDLESS supply of International workers ready to take EVERY American job if we let them - those people defending them won't be for long if it's continued to extrapolate at the rate it has over the past 20 years.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #67
84. If they want the kind of empathy I give americans.
They are more likely to find it in their own country.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
63. I have NO sympathy for them, and the faster they leave, the sooner
an AMERICAN will have an opportunity at the job they lost when the economy recovers. Too fucking bad for them. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way onto the airplane. And may the Obama Administration punish the companies that willfully out/insource AMERICAN jobs to Foreigners.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
68. Well, this is pretty much what happened to me.
I am a US citizen, and I was in the UK on a work visa. Lost my job, couldn't find another, and had to leave the UK.


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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
70. It's sad to me that many people are losing their jobs...
It's sad to me that many people are losing their jobs... regardless of where we are born, what side of the imaginary red and blue lines on a map we live on, where we go to school, or where we work, losing one's job is an awful experience.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #70
94. Those "imaginary" lines are how we achieve SELF-GOVERNANCE.
Like it or not, if it weren't for national boundaries then colonialism would be global and unremitting. There could be no elections, no laws, no ability to establish self-governance and achieve political self-determination.

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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #94
100. I'm not going to deny my sympathy for people...
Sorry-- I'm not going to deny my sympathy for people simply because they may live or have been born on the wrong side of someone's imaginary color lines.

However, I imagine there will plenty of individuals who will do just that, so no worries...
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
74. That's a tough situation--hard to pack up and leave if you've spent
years here building a life of sorts, putting your kids through American schools, have developed relationships, etc. They signed on for that, though, knowing it could happen.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. I was a year away from being able to apply for permanent residency...
...when I lost my job in the UK. Bye bye job, bye bye friends, bye bye life I thought I was building. But those are the breaks when you move overseas on a work visa. The callous attitude here towards the visa holders themselves really disturbs me.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. Yes, the "don't let the door hit ya" attitude is uncalled for.
During economic hard times, the average Joe always turns xenophobic and wants to blame "furriners" or minorities for "steelin mah job". I thought DU was more enlightened than that, but I guess not.
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. Nope.
There are plenty of xenophobes, racists, and plain ignorant jingoists on these boards, and they're quite happy to shout.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #78
83. Betcha won't be making that mistake again.
This is America. Certain things trump self-proclaimed political status, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #78
90. Whatever
I don't blame the foreign worker I trained to replace me before I got laid off last year. I blame the globalist corporate whore cheap labor apologists like YOU.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #90
93. Yikes. You are a seething cauldron of anger. Some of us feel natural
human sympathy for anyone who loses his/her livelihood and has to suddenly pack up and leave, no matter the nationality or work situation.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #93
96. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #96
98. Well, I have natural human sympathy for you too--and for anyone
who has the rug pulled out from under them. Even though you told me to Cheney myself. Good luck to you, hope you find something soon.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. After you called me a "seething cauldron of anger"
You deserved to be told worse, quite frankly.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #78
121. thank you for stating that so well
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #76
92. Did you not understand the rules?
Why were you "building a life" in a country where you where there because of a job? Why not wait until you've established permanent residency before you assume that you'll always have a place there? As for the "callous" attitude, what, do you think you should have priority over a UK citizen for a job? Have you ever considered that when a native citizen in a high-wage country loses his/her livelihood, it's not like they have the option of emigrating elsewhere to find similar, or better paying work?
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #92
95. Did you actually read my post?
Have you ever lived abroad? Have you ever worked abroad? Do you understand what that means for someone in terms of both their culture and their personal relationships? It isn't easy. And I never asked for it to be easy, but that doesn't mean I'm an emotionless automaton. So yes, I guess by your estimation I should have waited five or six years to start having friends and relationships. You go try it, then get back to me. Damn me for having a dream that wasn't a certain thing, I guess. Your attitude is appalling in the extreme. Hell, with that attitude I'd never have left my hometown and would be working at 7/11.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #95
97. I've lived in Japan and Canada
I was in the military so I understood that I was going to be there for a finite time. I developed close friendships with people but when it was time to leave it was time to leave. I didn't tell you not to make friends, I just suggested that it's not a good idea to *assume* you'll be staying forever in a country where you are there on a work permit. It's probably not a good idea to put a down payment on a house, like some H1B visa holders here have. And I mean, really, they have these contraptions called computers and telephones that allow you to keep in touch with people.

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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
85. Good. I just laid off 8 people 70 miles from the SV yesterday.
I know it sucks for the H1-B's, but none of those people I just laid off should have to compete with imported labor for a new programming job. H1-B's are here to backfill a labor shortage. There is no longer a labor shortage, and I'd argue there never was.

Thanks to outsourcing, there are plenty of development jobs in India, China, and eastern Europe now. Let the H1-B's return to their home countries and find work there.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #85
111. There hasn't been a real labor shortage since shortly after the Black Plague
Can't claim there's a labor shortage when a large percentage of the world slaves away for pennies a day. Most "shortages" are manufactured, either by barriers to entry (like the AMA limiting medical licenses) or by people who want workers who will work for less (like the H1B scam).
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
102. .
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 12:44 PM by LoZoccolo
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
103. No sympathy here...
I cannot tell you the stories of some I know who tell me about some of these same people who come to this country and look down on people who were born here and have tried to get jobs and were denied, while they can just walk on in and receive more benefits and live in better areas of the country than most,fuck em...
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lightningandsnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. Wow. How many recent immigrants do you know?
Live in better areas of the country than most? Look down on people who were born here? Did I miss some kind of memo?
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #106
123. You have to love the "logic," too.
H-1Bs are paid lower wages, yet they're also living in better areas of the country. :shrug:
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #123
129. you cant even get that kind of visa w.out a bachelors degree.
people are so daft.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #123
147. No empathy here...
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #106
145. No sympathy here...
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #103
116. WTF are you talking about?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #103
117. One of them asked if my dentist was black when they were looking for one themselves.
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 12:57 PM by LoZoccolo
It's weird, but some of them are waaaaaaaay more racist than the average American.
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #117
146. Exactly...
No sympathy here
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lightningandsnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
108. Wow. The thinly veiled racism on this thread is overwhelming.
I think there are issues with the H-1B Visa system, but holy fuck.

People: your anti-immigrant sentiment is showing!
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. Lame. n/t
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 12:45 PM by LoZoccolo
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #110
122. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #108
113. Any criticism of the cheap labor lobby at all gets you labeled a xenophobe by some here
Yes, there are DUers who have some awful attitudes toward immigrants. But there are also DUers who are clearly supportive of the globalist agenda and think that 99% living on poverty wages while 1% lives like royalty is just dandy.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #113
119. I think they're just insecure themselves.
I know I'm not saying these things for racist reasons, so the people accusing me of that can just go fuck off. Trust me, they wouldn't do it to my face.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #113
125. I've noticed that!
Re Any criticism of the cheap labor lobby at all gets you labeled a xenophobe by some here.

I'm getting to the point where I can tell who the cheap-labor advocates are, because there seems to be a definite pattern to their arguments. The "xenophobia" accusation is always part of it.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #125
131. Yeah, they don't hide it very well.
They start off by claiming that they're for *all* workers but when you suggest things that would help *all* workers, like unions and enforcing wage and environmental standards, they say it will hurt developing 3rd world countries. And then they'll call you a xenophobe again. Because wanting people in other countries to enjoy the same labor and environmental standards we do here is "xenophobic". :eyes:
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #108
114. "Thinly veiled"? Seriously, you call this 'thinly veiled'?
Understatement. Of. The. Decade.

This thread is foul.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. You are, of course, going to give up your job for one of the H1B visa holders
Right?
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #115
120. No, the "citizens of the world" are always giving away YOUR job, never their own.
A DU cheap-labor shill was spouting off about how she cared for all the workers of the world equally.

At which point, I asked her for $2000. She stammered off. Apparently she cares about at least one worker more than the others! :eyes:
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #115
126. I work with several
Have worked with them in the past, will work with them in the future. I've even hired them (that ought to send you right the fuck over the edge!)

Almost to a 1 they are eager to become citizens, more aware of American politics, more liberal than half the Americans I work with and those that have become citizens were so fucking proud to vote for Obama it made me weep. I watched the inauguration with 3 Indian co-workers over lunch. We all cheered.

They are my friends and I hurt when one of them loses their job just as when one of my American or Lebanese or English friends here do. They are people trying to earn a living, raise their families, do the best they can. They love their kids just like we do. They believe that saying on the Statue of Liberty was meant for them, too.

I've been laid off, I've had jobs shipped to other states like West Virginia where good old white folks were paid a lot less than I was. I, a 45 y.o. senior programmer have not had too much trouble keeping myself employed even what with all the 'damn Injuns' taking all the good jobs.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #126
127. So I guess the answer is no.
You're not going to give up your job.
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #127
135. whatever
:eyes:

I compete for my job. They compete for theirs. That's how it works.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #135
138. You're competing in a race to the bottom.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #108
118. H1-B's are NOT immigrants.
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 01:00 PM by Xithras
They aren't here to partake in the American dream. They're here to partake in American money for a while before returning home. I've worked with dozens of H1'B's over the years and only ONE wanted to stay here. The rest just wanted to make as much money as possible so they could return to their home countries with a lot of accrued wealth (we may think of them as underpaid, but an H1B who collects a salary for a few years will return home as a comparatively wealthy person. Many don't have to ever work again, or return home to found businesses in their home countries that make them even wealthier.

I have a lot of respect for immigrants who pull up stakes and move to a different nation to build a better life for themselves. My opinion is a bit lower of people who go to a country, displace the native workforce, and do nothing but shuttle money back to their home nation for their own benefit when they return. It's the EXACT same situation as us sending American workers to Iraq to rebuild infrastructure while the Iraqi's remain unemployed.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #118
124. I think it's deeply ironic that the individuals cited in the article are from an upper-class family
... in one of the most historically bigoted and caste-conscious nations on earth. India's history of caste-based (and race-based and religion-based) oppression is well-known. I've personally known several Indian immigrants, including a Sikh, and been appalled at the habitual (cultural?) racism. These particular individuals are clearly from India's "top 0.1%" in terms of wealth and privilege. Their sense of personal entitlement seems clear.

It's my understanding that foreign graduates of American universities (on student visas) can obtain H-1B visas OUTSIDE of the quota limits on such visas. It's one of the ways the system is 'gamed.' BOTH visas are clearly legislated as "non-immigrant" visas ... yet the presumption that the terms of the visa, when enforced, create some kind of hardship on individuals from affluent families is almost ludicrous.


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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #124
128. thank you for a very informative post TahitiNut!
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #124
130. sikhs are neither upper nor lower caste. sikhism has no caste. shows what you know.
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 01:35 PM by La Lioness Priyanka
they are also rich sikhs and poor sikhs. its not a socioeconomic class thing either
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #130
133. TahitiNut never claimed that Sikhs were upper caste
He said they are caste-conscious, which they are. He then pointed out that the 2 engineers profiled in the article were from affluent families. If you feel so bad for them by all means give one of them your job.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #133
139. they are overqualified for my job. you do know that they have to be qualified, yes?
also he claimed he knew all these indian, including upper class indians who belonged in the .1% Sikhs dont have any particular class/caste ties in india.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #130
134. Try arguing with something I actually SAID instead of some imbecilic straw man.
Edited on Tue Feb-03-09 01:47 PM by TahitiNut
I merely noted that one of my close associates in my life was a Sikh for the purposes of underlining my contact with the historical caste system in India. I'm quite aware of the "warrior caste" (from which Sikhism sprang three centuries ago) and it's origins. I'm also quite aware of the economic diversity among today's Sikhs.

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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #134
143. sikhism doesnt recognize caste, sikhism venerate warriors not just kshatriyas
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #143
144. Again, you seem inclined to argue with me about things I have NOT said.
What I HAVE said is that I have some familiarity with the historical caste system in India ... and I noted a close association with a Sikh. I am AWARE that Sikhism is distinguished not only by having arisen from the "warrior caste" but ALSO by the fact that Sikhism ESCHEWS castes, acknowledging the innate, egalitarian worth of all forms of human labor. Indeed, it is in their very opposition (to the degree they personally incorporate the tenets of their religion) to the caste system that an immigrant Sikh can be a reputable source of understanding of that very system. (Piri was a somewhat abrasive meritocracist, actually.)

Why do you seem to assume that everyone else is an idiot and only YOU have the Holy Grail of Full Truth???

(Sheesh!) :eyes:


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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #118
132. I'm afraid you are mistaken
They can be both:

"Those wishing to remain in the US for more than six years may, while still in the US on an H1B visa, apply for permanent residence (the "green card"):"

http://www.workpermit.com/us/us_h1b.htm

Many use H1B as a foot in the door.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #132
136. It's not supposed to be a foot in the door
It's supposed to be a work permit. Personally, I don't necessarily agree that visas should ever be tied to a specific job since it opens the possibility of employer abuse, but it is what it is. If people are using the H1B to parlay it into permanent residence then they are assuming a big risk that the job may not last and they will have to leave. Them's the breaks.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
112. Oh my heart goes out to them.... NOT
There are Americans who could be doing these jobs. Anybody outsourcing jobs to foreign countries or insourcing immigrants to work the jobs here should be charged with treason.

Not the immigrants themselves, the corporations. And they should pay for the immigrants plane ride home.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
142. Sympathizers, ask yourself, what Foreign Country would grant us the same work privileges
as greedy corporate America????


<crickets>
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-09 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
148. Locking
This thread is flaming beyond hope of adequate moderation.

Cheers,

cbayer
DU Moderator
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