NYT: American Moms: Overwhelmed and Pissed-off

[Cash_thatswhatiwant]

The New York Times reports that the most-read story on Parenting.com is "Mad At Dad," a look at how angry mothers of young children are at their husbands.

While there's definitely a stereotype of the angry or desperate housewife, there's no arguing with facts: A "disturbing portrait of motherhood," the article is based on a survey of 1,000 mothers from MomConnection. The gist? Moms are pissed. They're mad that parenting is an uneven playing field, that the weight of the responsibilities fall on their shoulders, instead of the fathers'. The author, Martha Brockenbrough, includes some nauseating survey results: 46% of moms who took the survey "get irate with their husbands" once a week or more. Half of the moms described their anger as "intense"; 1 in 10 say it’s "deep and long-lasting." 44% are "peeved" that their partners "often don’t notice what needs to be done around the house or with the kids." 50% say "their husbands get more time for themselves." Brockenbrough writes:

"We carry so much of this life-altering responsibility in our heads: the doctors’ appointments, the shoe sizes, the details about the kids’ friends. Many dads wouldn’t even think to buy valentines for the class, for example, or know when it’s time to sign kids up for the pre–camp physical, or that curriculum night is next Thursday at 7:30 and you need to hire a sitter and bring a nut-free vegetarian appetizer that can be eaten without a fork. Even moms who work full-time take it upon themselves to store all this data in our already overstuffed heads. We’re the walking, talking encyclopedias of family life, while dads tend to be more like brochures."

Of course, since the survey was for moms and about moms, there's no data about dads. Are they clueless? Or aware that they make their wives so upset? And what is the solution? Clearly, a woman simmering in fury is a terrible thing: Redford Williams, M.D., whom Brockenbrough interviewed for the piece, says: "Anger kills. It’s not just that it can damage your heart — which it does — but it’s also been found in epidemiological studies to identify people who are more likely to have a heart attack or drop dead from any cause." But the real question here is: How does all this anger affect the kids? Children pick up on the slightest subtleties in their parents' moods. Is it healthy to know that your mother resents your father? And is the anger contagious?

source

[midnight]

1. The Lilly Ledbetter act was signed this week. It took

longer than forty years of women's outrage. Women were denied equal pay for doing the same job as male workers. But instead they were ripped off. Being a mom, who shoulders much of the responsibilities, that are overlooked by the dad, is daunting. It deserves the outrage that is stemming from dads being pre-occupied. Maybe the tide will turn in this area too.

[K Gardner]

48. I was astounded to hear Tweety talk about this and bring up nurses as point of

underpaid professions - wondering if RNs were so poorly paid due to being a historically female-dominated profession. Not that I expect to see my salary rise - my cable installer makes as much as I do.

[SharonAnn]

121. Of course, female dominated professions pay less. In early times, RNs didn't have many

other opportunities so many talented women became Rns or teachers. As more jobs opened up to women, more women moved to other fields.

But still,nursing is a female dominated profession. And it's low on the "management" totem pole in most environments.

[Matariki]

69. I wish that pay disclosure would have been included in that bill.

For instance, at the company I work for it's 'against the rules' to disclose what you are paid to your co-workers. I highly suspect my male colleagues make more than me, but they're not saying.

[trumad]

2. Although I am certain that much of this piece is true---

I know quite a few fathers including myself who carry equal responsibilities at home with the kids.

[Terry_M]

3. Based on this

" 50% say "their husbands get more time for themselves." it sounds like a lot of men do share the responsibility equally.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

4. I can't imagine being angry with husband because he

didn't think to buy Valentine's cards for our kid. That's such a small detail. I think we both put forth an equal effort to take care of our son and our household. We both work full time too. I'm rarely angry with my husband.

[JerseygirlCT]

62. It sounds like it's less about the buying, and more about being

willing to be the one to remember all the little things like that that need doing wrt school and activities.

I press the kids into service with that, too - if they're going to need valentines, then they're responsible for reminding us both that's the case.

[seabeyond]

66. hey.... last couple years, i give it all to my boys. they miss something and is a big OH WELL

should have told/reminded me.

[JerseygirlCT]

72. LOL. Yeah, pretty much! Good training for them nt

[kstewart33]

5. Geez, I should give my guy the day off.

He does his share all the time. Wednesday he's taking the day off to go up in the Rockies to teach our youngest how to snowboard.

[JerseygirlCT]

59. yeah, mine is pretty good that way, too

He works many more hours than I do, so yes, I do more around here and am the front-line for child care during the week. But when he's home, chores are evenly divided (sometimes tilt toward him, even), and childcare is definitely done by us both.

It's limited by his job, that's all - and since he makes more than I do, it makes more sense for me to be the one with the flexibility in my schedule and him to focus more on his work.

[onlyadream]

6. I can totally relate...

My hubby just doesn't have the head to do the mom things - and when I see men who do, I am truly impressed. To stave off divorce, we were lucky enough to go to the traditional roles; I'm now a stay at home mom who looks at it as my job to do all the mom things and his job is to provide (money that is). This has kept us happy for about 10 years now. Hopefully he gets to keep his job...

[seabeyond]

13. ya, with you. IF i were working i would be pissed too. lol. BUT it works really

well me staying at home. i do what i excel at, he does what he excels at and we both get plenty of down time. neither are pissed, both are happy and content

[NNN0LHI]

7. I really don't think men are as good at multi-tasking as woman are

I can do one thing real well. Some things better than my wife can. But she can do a lot of things all at once well. And much better than I could. What my wife can do would overwhelm me in short order.

And yes you can replace wife with mother and you get the same thing. I don't think men ever truly grow all the way up.

Don

[moc]

8. I agree. Have you ever seen the graphic of a woman's brain?

http://www.goofball.com/photos/20061019201



Every one of those little blue balls is a thought about something that needs to be done, a decision, or a problem that needs to be solved.

I really think that men's and women's brains are wired differently. Men think linearly; women see the whole system at once. Earlier in our marriage, I spent a lot of time pissed off at my husband because he just didn't "see" the things that needed to be done. I was mad because I thought I shouldn't have to ask; that he should just know intuitively. However, I realized that his brain just doesn't work like mine. I could spend my time being pissed off at him because he couldn't read my mind, or I could just ask him to help. He's more than willing to help. We've been married almost 19 years and have 2 kids and both work full-time. I'm not pissed off any more.

[NNN0LHI]

9. That is one of the funniest things I have ever seen

Good way to begin a day with a smile on my face.

Don

[Berry Cool]

14. I guess it's lucky I have never had kids.

I don't HAVE that kind of brain. I have all I can do to remember the details of my OWN job and my OWN life without having to fill my brain with the details to organize everything needed for the lives of a bunch of other people.

I'm sorry, but I think it's a bunch of sexist bullshit that women somehow have these brains that are superior at multitasking and organizing the lives of large groups of other people (i.e., their children), while most men can barely handle organizing their own lives, and need a woman's help to do it because they can't be trusted to remember their kids' birhdays or when to buy the valentines and how to make the cupcakes. In fact, the men mentioned here by some other posters disprove that the myth that men's brains are incapable of handling this stuff.

Women have to stop taking the entire burden of organizing their kids' lives and letting the men slip out of it. If they did, they might resent their husbands less.

ed. to straighten out the language

[John Q. Citizen]

18. I agree with you. Like anything, parenting is something that people learn how to do. The more one

does it, the better one gets at it.

[seabeyond]

19. both my brothers have the same nurturing attributed to mothers and the ones that birthed

the babies lack. so i agree it is not a male/female thing. seems more what a person learned from their own parents growing up.

[ProgressIn2008]

99. I agree with you. The women I know are better at that kind of thinking because

they have been trained to do it, told they're better at it, and many times, pressured into thinking their homes/families/loved ones will fall apart without it. That's the social role aspect and while there may well be a biological component, it's also a matter of the exposure and practice that comes along with the social role.

I've known men thrown into a situation where they have to fulfill that role for their children, and in some cases, just doing it makes them better at it.

It's a variation of what I see in my workplace, while is frankly gender-divided. The men have the higher positions of authority and make big-picture decisions. The women in my workplace often express frustration that the details of putting the big picture into effect are never considered -- and it's left to the women to clean up the details of the process and implementation. At lower classifications and pay rates, too. I imagine that divide exists in a lot of workplaces, whether it's gender divided or not, though.

It's an interesting problem to examine, for sure.

[Sugar Smack]

141. And there you have it.

GREAT observations! :D FTR, my father raised both my brother and me when we were kids because it was my mother who took off. He did it gracefully and well, IMO.

[treestar]

104. Amen! the "hard wired" argument always boils down to "let's do it the way

the man wants" or the man just naturally gets a break and gets a better life. Hard wiring arguments always come down as an advantage for men.

[seabeyond]

105. cant help it, cant control..... weak? i hear ya.

men and women equally cheat
men "hardwired"
women- bitches?

[Gabi Hayes]

22. here:

http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com/

[varelse]

25. Why are most CEOs, top level politicians, and other high-level executives male?

If women's brains are so much better at seeing the big picture, multitasking, and organizing other people's lives?

It's not adding up for me, sorry :(

**edited for spelling**

[smoogatz]

32. We're less averse to confrontation.

Seriously. Also, multitasking isn't necessarily all it's cracked up to be as a career skill: a lot of jobs call for intense focus and single-minded purpose--the ability to push your way through a project, on your own, until it's done. Not that women can't/don't do those things, but we tend to think of them as essentially "male" characteristics.

[seabeyond]

39. you are right. statistically married men make significantly more than others

and the reason given is their ability focus and give all to job.

[SmileyRose]

76. They have that luxury because

there is someone else taking care of all the little details. It's either the wife or the administrative assistant (who is often the same person). Then, when the wife finally get gets tired of being treated like a worthless afterthought while he runs all over the world with the hot young thing du jour, and decides to leave, we all call her a golddigging parasite because she dares to ask for a portion of the wealth that would never have been built without her keeping all the little threads together behind the scenes.

[ProgressIn2008]

101. Spot on. I've seen too many men carried to success by their assistants

who get a fraction of their pay and none of the credit. They give the hours and the sweat to put an idea into practice and sometimes, the idea completely changes through the implementation. Yet, the man is still seen as the agent of success of his project/idea -- even if the project would never have worked on the ground in its original form.

It's pretty bad in my workplace and sometimes when I look at it, it reminds me in a strange way of a marriage. Bosses and assistants have complex relationships and when you add in the gendered dynamic, it's even more complex.

[JerseygirlCT]

67. I think that's true

Another example of socializing, though. Girls are taught to get along, and too often boys are encouraged to be aggressive, not to be taken advantage of. Women have been taught that compromise and diplomacy are key skills - sometimes they don't get you ahead, even if they're critical in the largest picture of human society. Those are less-valued skills in our culture.

[smoogatz]

75. I'm not sure that's the case.

We have lots of very progressive friends who've tried all things gender neutral in raising their kids, and even pre-toddler-care and without the influence of TV a lot of the traditional gender stuff seems to develop on its own, without any help from the parents. I think gender characteristics are a lot more hardwired than we're comfortable admitting, but I'm kind of a dinosaur in that regard (at least on DU).

[JerseygirlCT]

79. Oh, I'm sure there's some degree of that

boys *in general* tend to be more physical, girls *in general* tend to be more verbal. Mine are maybe exceptions to that - early speakers, they are most definitely not the rough and tumble types. Far more likely to look for ways to cooperate and get along, far more likely to use words instead of getting physical. Artistic, both of them. They both often end up with many good friends who are girls - finding them easier to get along with.

Part of that is certainly how they've modeled and been taught to be. (Endless 'we don't hit" and "use your words" reminders when young) Part, I'm sure is that being verbal very early, they communicate well - didn't NEED to resort to something else to get their needs met.

But even boisterous, rough and tumble kids can be taught against type - I do find myself correcting the kids in the neighborhood when they announce "boys don't do that", or "only girls do that" - or "moms do that"... no such expectations in this house. When they were small, my kids would look very puzzled at announcements like that, lol. (What do you mean boys don't play with dolls? That's crazy!)

We all have to learn to go against our natures in some ways. Left on my own, I'd sit around in comfie clothing, reading most of the day and listening to music. Work wouldn't get done, cleaning wouldn't get done, cooking wouldn't get done, lol.

[seabeyond]

81. both my boys, especially oldest, very articulate at such young age. excellent communicators

is it ingrained or is it taught.

my husband is so bad at feeling and talking about anything. but then in his house mom said ruled and no, no, absolutely no opinion from the kid. she tried to do it to me this christmas and i am 47. was a huge wtf.

hubby and i talking the other day and how hard it is for him to express... he told me what he is so thankful about me is that i have taught and allowed the boys to and they wont be having this issue when they are older.

with the other stuff too.

conditioning.

are there differences between male and female. yes, absolutely and i have no desire to try to change it. we embrace our differences and they seem to work together well. after 14 yrs he knows what i dont like or what i am not good and i know same with him. we take those jobs.

[JerseygirlCT]

82. Oh absolutely - division of labor based on inclinations and skills

But those aren't always matched up with "traditional" allocations.

If there's work to be done outside - fixing the gardens, trimming hedges, etc. - that'll be me. Hubby has rotten allergies and no inclination there. Finances - he handles. He's got a better mind for numbers, and since he'd worry about it anyway... why have two worrying? Laundry - equally divided. Cooking? Mostly me, since I'm home longer in the evenings. But when he can - like on weekends, he actually loves it.

He's happier with things neater - I'm messier. He's more likely to get on the kids about cleaning than I am. I like the bed made just so - so I usually make it. And on and on.

[Hello_Kitty]

41. They always have some convenient, "just so" story to explain it.

Like the one he just gave you about how men's "single focus" makes them better equipped to be CEOs. Gee, you'd think that "single focus" would also be extremely useful in helping them to devise a better way to clean the toilets, but no, that's where the famous inability of men to see dirt comes in.

Also, since women are supposed to be better at social interaction, you'd think that we should be the ones running the business world since in most jobs the ability to get along with and work well with others is invaluable. The guys, with their spatial-linear brains should be staying home thinking of better ways to clean the toilet. But of course, that brings us back to their famous inability to do that stuff.

[smoogatz]

71. "Getting along" and "working well with others" are not necessarily the skills

a CEO would find most useful. That's my point. I was a junior executive in a past life and studied my (all male) bosses in some detail: what they were good at, mostly, was getting other people to do their jobs for them, then taking credit if things went well (and assigning blame if it didn't). They were also extremely project-oriented but tended to delegate the details to other people further down the food-chain. Those characteristics are the same ones we're finding objectionable in this thread--but they served these guys very well in the business world.

[JerseygirlCT]

80. Absolutely

And as a woman, I've found myself hugely frustrated at working with those types. All the work gets rolled "downhill" and they're simply too important to be bothered with those details. Of course, when it's time to take the credit, it's all theirs.

The women I've worked with are more apt to find ways to be cooperative, and share the work that needs to get done.

But even there - I've worked with women who behave every bit as objectionably as the men cited above. And men who are excellent at motivating and working alongside people. Nothing is ever black and white.

I imagine it's possible that as more women find themselves moving up in the ranks (slowly), the culture in the workplace may possibly change. I think that would be a very good thing, personally!

[Hello_Kitty]

83. Sure they served "those guys" well

But they didn't necessarily serve the interests of everyone else, did they? To wit: The current economic crisis.

[varelse]

73. ...

:spray:

I think you're on to something :rofl:

[eilen]

103. I'd just like to see that ability of "single focus" to focus on getting the pee

stream aimed into the toilet, not on it. Honestly, I'm thinking of painting a target in there.

[seabeyond]

106. give them cheeios to aim for. theya re visual. bah hahahha

really, just teasing on all this. not what the thread was about. BUT it was a guy that brought up all the "hardwired" shit.

[JerseygirlCT]

65. Because we still live in a very sexist society

and women are rarely given the same breaks, especially at the upper layers of business or politics, that men are.

The glass ceiling still exists, and some.

[anonymous171]

68. The answer is obvious: Sexism. nt

[Cerridwen]

102. Doing a great job, too, aren't they?

Wars across the planet, pollution and environmental damage, economic systems in shambles, governments failing and folding, people rioting, children dying from curable diseases...

Yep, thems some great credentials and proof of leadership abilities.

Why do men hold the positions you list? Start with, the systems to which you refer were created and are maintained by, for, and about men; specific men, at that. Continue studying from there.

Keep looking and it'll "add up" eventually.

[SharonAnn]

122. Hmm. Let's see. Discrimination? Cronyism? Lack of opportunity? Or even fear?

Fear that a woman might want to run things like a business and stop all the cronyism?

[smoogatz]

26. "Just ask him to help."

Yep. Just ask. If you wait for us to figure it out ourselves (you mean you have to clean the inside of the fridge, too?) you're going to wait a long time. It's not so much that men are linear thinkers, though--we just don't care as much about the domestic details. I mean, who folds their underwear, fercryinoutloud? Basically, women's brains are as you depict them. Men's have two compartments: a big one labeled "Sex," and a much smaller one called "work" (some guys have an anteroom in between called "golf," but I've never understood that one). We have to be reminded about pretty much everything else, including the fact that we have kids. Kids? Oh, right. Kids.

[seabeyond]

30. not a chance in hell. absolutely refuse to ask. i will not be labeled a nag.

my hubby cannot tell any of those nag jokes cause i refuse. after 14 something years marriage, the other day he was bored and asked for a honey do listen. i refused. please, please he says. told him no. wont get one from me. sorry.... lol lol.

anything that doesnt get done, simply doesnt get done. not an issue for me, so doesnt become an issue for him but i wont be telling a grown adult what he needs to do. in all his brilliance, he can figure out.

[smoogatz]

33. Whatever works for you.

We're too busy and too fond of each other to fight over dumb domestic stuff. She gives me the list, I do it, everybody's happy.

[seabeyond]

37. wink.... lol

and i guess that is how i see it. none of the stuff is that big of a deal. he does more than enough.

[Hello_Kitty]

35. Thank you.

Men are Masters Of The Universe when it comes to important things like running countries or companies. Their oh-so-linear and spatial brains supposedly lend themselves to that. Yet when it comes to things like controlling their sexual impulses or helping out around the house they miraculously revert to being cavemen or children. So funny how things just work out conveniently for them that way.

[seabeyond]

40. ya

i ignored the sex bullshit in the post. old and tired. i figure that is just a conditioned response of what society has decided all that males are. kinda like the women nag bullshit.

[Hello_Kitty]

31. IOW, you have absorbed and internalized stereotypes that infantilize you.

Glad it's working out for you.

[smoogatz]

36. Do you always not get humor?

How's that working out for *you*?

[JerseygirlCT]

53. But you don't, really

I think that's a convenient out for most men.

My dh is perfectly capable of managing more than one task or thought at the same time. He's able to be responsible for seeing that something needs doing, and doing it. In many ways, he's more particular than I am about much of the housekeeping.

I'm home more than he is, so I do a bit more of that. One of us needs to be working full time for us to get by, and his profession pays significantly more than mine does, so it makes sense.

But don't sell yourselves short - it's really about a mind-set, not about how you're actually wired.

[Hello_Kitty]

84. What galls me is how they want to have it both ways

One one hand, they can't possibly be expected to help keep the house neat because their poor little male brains aren't "wired" that way. OTOH, they complain bitterly about the media stereotype of men as dumb, insensitive clods who need female caretakers.

[seabeyond]

85. that's true. very good point. damn good thing i dont buy it any of the

bullshit. just makes it so much easier.

[JerseygirlCT]

50. I think that's partly still how men are raised and socialized

If they're taught that men can't remember all that, and do all that, they never learn.

My husband pretty much does as much around the house as I do. He also takes care of our finances (he'd still obsess if I did, and so why have two of us obsessing?). I work less out of the home, so the bulk of childcare is on me, yes. But when he's home, he's as responsible as I am.

He grew up babysitting, and otherwise dealing with children, so none of that is scary or foreign to him. My kids will be raised in the same way. There really isn't a "moms do that and dads do that" around here. We divide the labor, but not really along traditional lines.

I've seen many women of my parents' generation who prefer that their sons and husbands leave all that to them. There is a bit of infantilizing the men in that- I think they feel it gives them more freedom in their area, but also keeps their men tied to them. I imagine the generation of our kids will be less likely to be that way.

[Nikia]

90. I think that many women get better at multi tasking

By attempting to get things done while caring for infants/small children. Having a young baby myself, I have gotten better at it since I wouldn't getting anything done except for caring for him otherwise. I have known other women who were also bad at multitasking as teenagers and young adults who also have gotten better at it out of necessity.

[seabeyond]

96. i think so. survival. i have found memory worse, then i realize i am remembering for 4

not just one so i am not nearly as tough on me the few things i forget.

[DoctorMyEyes]

10. Doesn't seem like a random sample

Maybe "mom connection" is a place that moms get together to bitch and reinforce each others "anger"? And it seems to me that they're getting some time for themselves and they're using it to complain online. I wonder how many of these "angry moms" are Lifetime Channel fans? (I hate the Lifetime channel)

[ogneopasno]

11. Exactly. Self-selecting samples rarely give good data.

[Dreamer Tatum]

77. DING DING DING

Biased sample.

[ellie]

12. Growing up,

my mom was responsible for our day-to-day. Since my dad worked afternoons, I only saw him on the weekends. She was always pissed off. She is still pissed off and he died 11 years ago.

Edited to fix confusing punctuation.

[onlyadream]

15. Here's my true story:

When I DID work, my daughter was in day care and I would drop her off and hubby would pick her up (while I made dinner). Well, one day, while making dinner, there is a knock at the door (hubby would rather have me open the door for him than use his keys). When I opened the door I noticed there was no baby in hand. So, I ask where the baby is, and his jaw drops. He immediately turns around and leaves. Nuff said.

[seabeyond]

17. bah hahhahaa. lol lol. i bet

you guys still laigh about it.

my hubby lost our littlest in walmart. that is our funny story. oh and was sent to principals office of my oldest sons private christian school. wink.

[mnhtnbb]

98. Haven't kept count, but it seems to me that most of the stories about kids being

forgotten in car seats are situations where Dad forgot the kid was there.

[LibDemAlways]

131. One night when my little one was just a toddler I decided

to take a walk and informed my husband that I needed to get out for some exercise and would be back in a half hour. I told him to please keep an eye on our 2-year-old. As I left he was sitting at the computer and she was playing with some toys in the same room.

As I was approaching the house at the conclusion of the walk I spotted my husband literally run out of the house and look frantically up and down the street. Sure enough, he had lost track of her and thought maybe she had somehow escaped. He was pale as a sheet.

She was still in the house, but he had missed her.

That was the last time I ever left him in charge when she was that small. Unfortunately, I couldn't trust him to do the job.

[onlyadream]

138. My friend's husband

left his son at the soccer field, I think the boy was about 4 or 5. The dad thought the mom took the boy, and when they met up (at another field, at another school) they were horrified. When they went back, the boy was gone. A friend spotted the boy on a very busy town road, walking on the sidewalk - he was trying to get home.

[LibDemAlways]

139. That is just horrible. I can see how it could happen,

but there's really no excuse.

It reminds me of something that happened to my husband's nephew when he was little. He was playing in the backyard when he was about two. My sister-in-law was in the house. (She should have been keeping a better eye on him.) Anyhow, they had a rather large dog who had burrowed a hole under the fence along the side of the house. Sure enough, the two-year-old discovered the hole and got out onto the sidewalk and then out into a busy street. A driver damn near hit him. Very shaken, she stopped, picked up the boy, and rang the doorbell of my sister-in-law's house. When my sister-in-law admitted that was, indeed, her child, the stranger read her the riot act. Can't blame the woman at all. It was totally my sister-in-law's fault.

It's amazing that so many kids survive childhood given that those who should be protecting them are sometimes so negligent in their responsibility.

[philk17088]

16. puleeeze!

Did any of these women stop to think that they waste in ordinate amounts of brain power on such unimportant things?
How about asking their husbands how often they are pissed at their wives?
The martyr act is really getting old.

[Missy Vixen]

42. Which of the things that women think about are "unimportant"?

We have no children. Let me tell you how things go at our house, and it's a fraction of what happens with women who are also parents.

My husband announces to me on a Sunday afternoon that he'd like to "go for a ride" in the car. Okay. He gets his shoes on, gets his car keys, and gets in the car.

This is what I'm thinking about:

-Did he fill the car when he took it out yesterday? Do we need to address this first?
-Do we need to have some kind of food or drink with us -- have we eaten yet?
-Do we have household chores that must be completed before we go if we arrive home too late to do them?
-What about work? Did he finish that project he has to have done before tomorrow morning for the office?
-Speaking of work, does he have suitable clean clothes for tomorrow?

on and on and on and on

If you are married to a man who doesn't stop to think about anything but instant gratification, it's cute and fun when you're dating. When you're married, though, the burden STILL falls on the vast majority of women to keep the household together. Women are still judged much more harshly on their households than men are.

BTW, if you think that women are "martyrs", again, the vast majority are still responsible for the children of the household, and therefore, loaded down with errands and responsibilities for said children, plus holding down a full-time job as well.

[Hello_Kitty]

55. So true about women being judged more

Keeping things tidy is viewed as the woman's role and when the house is messy people think, "she doesn't keep his house clean". Doesn't matter who actually owns the house or if they both work full time. It's HIS house and it's HER job to clean and decorate it.

[Xithras]

87. Part of that is we men simply don't care as much about those things.

My wife believes that windows should be sparkling clean and washed regularly. I think that hosing them off yearly is good enough.

My wife believes that the carpets should be vacuumed almost daily. I think that they should only be vacuumed when they look dirty.

My wife believes that clothes should be worn once and washed. I think that clothes only need cleaning if they have spots or odors.

She complains that I don't do enough to help her around the house. I think she makes up bullshit work that doesn't need to be done anyway. If she wants to stress over all that crap, she can. I have better things to do.

[Missy Vixen]

94. Oh, really?

I clearly stated that women are judged much more harshly on the cleanliness of their homes, their children, etcetera, than men are, and that's your response? In other words, it just doesn't matter to you that your wife carries a crushing workload, just as long as YOU don't have to do the "bullshit work".

>I have better things to do.

Is that so?

Glad I'm not your wife, buddy. Then again, I can pretty much guarantee I would have left your ass a long time ago.

[Hello_Kitty]

97. I've heard that argument many times and I think it needs to be examined.

In my observation, many men appreciate a clean home when they are living in it. They just want someone else to do it. Obviously many men are exceptions to this rule. Some of the biggest neat freaks I know are men. But generally speaking, I've found that men are willing and able to "ignore" dirt and mess when there isn't someone around to clean it up.

As to your wife's fastidiousness, remember that she may have had social pressure put on her to maintain domestic and hygenic standards that you couldn't even imagine. Society is very tolerant of an unmarried man who lives in a messy home with dirty windows and wears rumpled clothes. They're not so forgiving when it's a woman. Once you are married, responsibility for keeping the House Perfect and the husband in clean clothes often falls on the woman. You say that she stresses over crap you aren't worried about but it's possible that if she stopped worrying about those things and let them slide you might not like it so much.

[onlyadream]

107. I think there's something else too

I think that women are programmed to be concerned over their house by nature - they are nesters (probably b/c they're the moms and have an inate need to make a nice home).
I also think that men don't see dirt, or they're too lazy to (so it goes ignored - until one day they look around and declare that the house is a mess).

EVERY single weekend (or day that hubby has off), he stays in his jammies until about 4:00pm. I keep telling him that if there's an emergancy or a knock at the door, he should be "ready"...but nope...it drives me nuts. We're trying to sell a car and b/c of this laziness, I can't show the car.

[Hello_Kitty]

110. Well I guess that "nesting" gene must have skipped me.

I'm a bit of a slob and have no skill at or interest in beautifying my home. This is why the subject of cleanliness chafes me and also probably why I've always had a hard time at relationships.

[Withywindle]

116. There's a lot of truth to that.

I'm one of those WOMEN who "doesn't see dirt." Not unless it's visible, that is. I don't clean every day because I like to have a sense of accomplishment when I do it - if the "before" and "after" look pretty much the same, why bother?

I've had a couple of experiences with live-in male partners who, when the relationship started souring, blamed ME for the mess entirely - although they actually did less cleaning than I did.

I finally went off on one guy and yelled, "But I thought you loved me for my blowjobs, not my housecleaning!"

[Hello_Kitty]

117. I'm right there with you

I'm a domestic retard.

[Withywindle]

115. I'm a woman who agrees with you on how unimportant most of that stuff is.

Vacuuming every day? Who the frak does that?

Not me, partnered or not.

(I've had some bad experiences partnered with male neat freaks. If it bugs 'em so much, let 'em have at it.)

[TwilightGardener]

47. I don't know, it depends on what you consider "unimportant"--

does your kid wearing a coat to school seem important on a cold day? Or cleaning up piss around the base of the toilet? Or feeding the pets? Or having clean socks? Women often sweat the "small stuff", not by choice, but because someone has to. Men who choose not to worry their beautiful minds over the details of child rearing and housekeeping should be grateful they don't have to clutter up their brains with that "unimportant" shit that SOMEBODY has to take care of.

[Hello_Kitty]

52. Your privilege is showing, dude.

[John Q. Citizen]

20. Here is an interesting perspective

http://archive.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/06/12/gatekeeping/

The mama lion at the gate
Maternal chauvinism is a dad's greatest obstacle to parental parity.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Cathy Young

June 12, 2000 | "Say Da-da," a male voice off-camera urges a baby seen through the lens of a camcorder.

"Ma-ma," gurgles the baby.

"Say Da-da."

"Ma-ma," insists the baby.

A tag line appears at the bottom of the screen: "Baby's first word. Another great reason for being a woman."

This recent commercial for Oxygen, the female-oriented interactive cable channel and Web site, prompted some angry posts from offended dads on Oxygen.com message boards. Were they being too sensitive? Not if you consider that the "baby's first words" commercial is part of a barrage of cultural messages telling fathers that no matter what, they're always going to be in second place in their children's emotional lives. What's more, it looks like women are taking gleeful pleasure in men's second-class status. For a gender reversal, try to imagine a commercial making fun of a woman's helpless attempts to pump gas until a guy comes to the rescue.

From a woman's point of view, the Oxygen commercial might look like innocent fun, a way to make women feel good about themselves and about the special things they have in common. Yet in the end, this warm and fuzzy tribute to womanhood may not be so good for women, either. It appeals to an attitude -- call it maternal chauvinism -- that helps perpetuate the unequal division of labor at home and holds women back in the workplace.

Discussions of working women's extra burden of housework and child care usually pin the blame entirely on the male of the species. In her landmark 1989 book, "The Second Shift," sociologist Arlie Hochschild spoke of a "stalled revolution" in which changes in sex roles in the workplace had not been matched by changes at home, and left little doubt as to who was stalling: The problem was one of "faster-changing women and slower-changing men."

(much more it url)

[seabeyond]

24. a baby says da da before ma ma. how their speech develops and da da is easier

i can remember with our second child hubby felt bad cause baby was saying da da. i laughed, told him, soon enough he would learn ma ma and it never ends. i can wait.

but i hear ya on this. i willingly wanted and took the role and hubby willingly gave it to me. in ways was unfair to hubby. but it works for us.

[John Q. Citizen]

29. Division of labor is often practical to social harmony.

the interesting part of that article is that while women are rightly pissed at being over-worked between 'careers' and parenting, there are many women who are also very protective of their primary care provider roles with their children.

One problem the majority of families face is that most households can't survive economically on one income earner.

[seabeyond]

34. most households can't survive economically on one income earner.

that is the really sad issue and why i am so friggin lucky, well not just me, but hubby and kids. we are able. i think about working and the money i would earn is nothing, not worth adding the division of labor people are talking and creating mess for all of us.

what really gets me, my young niece needs to bring money in. she has a 1 yr old. by the time she pays day care, and gas, and working out the division of labor (clothes, not cooking meals themselves which happen with two working families) she wouldnt have anything of her paycheck. just not worth it.

[onlyadream]

108. I feel exactly the same way...

I'm VERY lucky and I feel guilty at times, like I have to justify my decision to stay home (I get accused of throwing my degree out the window).

[seabeyond]

111. no guilt or justifying here. it works best for all four of us. we are the only

one that have a say in it.

[The Straight Story]

21. My study says women just like to bitch about things and will find something out of nothing

:rofl: :hide: :sarcasm:

[Emit]

91. !

:spank:

lol

[smoogatz]

23. Fuck the nut-free vegetarian appetizer that can be eaten without a fork.

Seriously. And fuck the clueless school admins that ask parents to do stuff like that. What do they think, it's 1963 and all the kids have stay-at-home moms?

[liberalhistorian]

54. Yep, unfortunately, too many

of them still do. And you should have seen some of the admins and teachers I had to deal with as a single parent.

[John Q. Citizen]

57. As a single dad, I don't understand where you are coming from? Teachers and students

come up with activities, some of which involve food.

you don't think the school principle is involved with cub scout meeting snacks or music boosters awards dinners, do you?


Lots of kids don't participate in lots of activities. Some kids like sports, some like to sing.

You don't have to let your kids get involved with extra-curricular activities if you don't want to.

And in class activities, such as students hands on baking of pumpkin pies can be gotten around by calling your kid's teacher and saying "I can't send a 1/2 pint of whipping cream." Or 4 cups of flour or whatever their note asked they bring.

The teacher will deal.

[seabeyond]

63. for real.... and it is fine.... what i have found in kids schools is this largely falls

on the stay at home parent or parents with flexible schedules at work. most all of us parents with kids in school realizes this is today reality and it is doable.

[TwilightGardener]

27. I don't know, I think we've come a long way. When I was a kid, my dad

was the most useless thing around the house that there ever was, in terms of child-rearing or housework or cooking. The most he did was "babysit" if my mom was gone in the evenings, and cooking dinner for us equaled boiled hotdogs or fried bologna sandwiches. I'm not sure he ever had any idea of our birthdates (though he seems to remember the month), he never changed a diaper, never helped with homework, never threw a load into the washer--he was the father he wanted to be, an affable figure who sometimes took his kids fishing, dispensed "dad wisdom", took off his belt when mom was pissed at us, and occasionally played catch in the backyard. BUT, he provided the bulk of our income, so my mom didn't bitch about the lack of involvement--in her head, that was what marriage was all about for her generation, so it's not really for me to criticize their particular arrangement. My own husband, though, is a far more involved father and a pretty good housekeeper--not to the same degree as I am, but that's OK, since I work outside the home far less hours than he does. If I worked as many hours as my husband and STILL had to shoulder way more responsibility at home, I would be a little angry too, I guess.

[nashville_brook]

28. is it misplaced anger? are kids/dad really the stressor? is this a way to mask other, real economic

disparity. marx himself said that gender-based home economy was the first division of labor. when we're examining stressors in this realm it doesn't seem practical to assign psychological values to the situation (unless you only have psychological solutions to offer).

what about framing this in economic terms where we're identifying concrete things that can be changed. many women here responded that being at-home mothers changes the dynamic. why do we need two incomes to make ends meet? and, with so many people out of work (the numbers are way larger than 7.x percent, it's more like 17.x percent), how are we going to re-tool, re-think, and re-store the american family to a viable/dynamic economic engine of society. are we STILL de-valuing 'the home' to the point that labor here is devoid of value, because I thought we were passed that. i'm sure we're passed that. i think the most successful homes (atoms of society) are ones where the 'home' is given due value -- i'm talking about people really getting into 'producing value' in the home. things like doing your own improvements, cooking, entertaining, learning, nurturing. homes that fall apart are ones where one family members don't feel like they're on the same team b/c labor isn't divided equally.

this article is maddening b/c it's only half the story. people DO get angry when labor isn't divided equitably. doesn't matter if you're a mother, a father or a child. we respond to fairness and teamwork on a gut level where anger resides, and we don't like hearing that mothers of all people could resent their responsibilities in the family. but it happens all the time. we either address it in a way that's practical or we argue and get nowhere. we can't deny that anger happens, but we can endeavor to examine those things that can be changed.

[nashville_brook]

38. we're not mad at our kid/husband -- what we'd really like to do is kick our boss in the teeth.

but we can't do that. in the context of economic situation, would it be great if corporations and robber barons could make us believe that it's our husbands we're mad at, or our kids we resent.

we don't resent our families -- we resent not having healthcare for the three part-time jobs we work. we're pissed that we're being asked to the jobs of five people now that everyone has been laid off. we're seething that 400 or so of the richest families doubled their incomes last year while the rest of us paid $4 a gallon for gas and had our hours cut back.

just another way to look at it.

[seabeyond]

43. yes. i was saying in a post above... looking at going into the job market

needing the money, it isnt even worth it if you have a little one in daycare, or more than one.

[nashville_brook]

95. i really like the book Two Income Trap by Elizabeth Warren and Amelia Warren

http://www.amazon.com/Two-Income-Trap-Elizabeth-Warren/dp/0465090907/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233521394&sr=8-1

if you're not already familiar with it. it's so true that there's a point where it doesn't make economic sense to work with child care costs being so high.

we're getting screwed on all sides.

[JerseygirlCT]

44. Our culture, especially in the workplace, is most definitely

still set up with the idea that mothers will take primary charge of childrearing and housekeeping. We've made some small progress - like maternity leaves, for instance. But see how many men feel comfortable taking paternity leave. Few. And I don't think that's all because they're scared of handling a baby on their own. They're looked down on in too many workplaces for doing that.

The whole idea of family is quite devalued in the workplace - anything that interferes with 60-80 hours of dedication to the job is looked down on. We really need a sea-change wrt that.

[seabeyond]

45. when hubby owned business, the women were the ones took off when child sick, or got the

call when had to pick up child from school. they all had hubbies, but the men were never called.

[JerseygirlCT]

56. There's still a good amount of that. It's built-in

unfortunately. We're slowing changing that, but the default in most people's minds is still that Mom is in charge of that, and will be the primary care-giver - the person called for a sick child, the one to stay home with the kids on a snow day, the one to deal with the school. Doesn't matter if she's working as much as the husband, it seems. That takes some training on everyone's part!

[EFerrari]

109. That's my take, too, but my kids' dad shared every chore with me

even the 4 a.m. feedings. And, resentment seems to play out at home before at work. :(

[Subdivisions]

46. Guilty.

I am a man and have been involved in the raising of 9 children. And I am guilty of what these moms are charging. I don't have an excuse except to say that, to me at least, the division of responsibility always seemed to come about naturally, as if that were the way it was supposed to be. Of course, there were times when I was told in no un-certain terms that I wasn't much help. Looking back on my parenting days, I must admit that I could have been more involved.

This is an area of human nature that reveals just how differently males and females think. I agree with the moms that dads' natures need to change.

[seabeyond]

49. wow

honest. lol. again i say, it is that way with hubby and i and it works for us. i feel we EQUALLY provide in both marriage and family. but then i dont work. but yea for you being honest about it and it seems in a healthy way too.

[JerseygirlCT]

70. They only think that way because we've carefully trained them to do so

Which gives me hope for future generations.

I don't think men are inherently less nurturing or interested in caring for children. I think they've been taught, and women have been taught, roles that society has given them.

There's a neighbor of mine who is much more involved (from what I can see) in his kids' day to day lives. There are a whole bunch of younger kids all the same age. When they were quite small, they'd all go out to play, and the mom would be there, supervising. Except for this one neighbor. It was always the moms and him. Fabulous message that he sent to all our kids. And I must say, as soon as mine is home from work, he's the dad out there with all the neighborhood kids climbing on him and asking him to play with them, too.

People easily fall into those roles, because they're what we learned growing up. And, to some extent, there is a bit of biology. When my kids were babies, I felt a very strong pull to care for them - sometimes to the exclusion of my husband. I was nursing them, they were quite small - all those new mom hormones were screaming for me to hold them at any time.

That goes, however, as they become more independent, walking and talking. It's just that we've been socialized not to let it go!

[BlooInBloo]

51. It might be exacerbated in the context of children, but women are almost always angry at men....

Or maybe that's just me. :P

[seabeyond]

61. hm..... lol lol. only when they say

stupid stuff like, i can only think with little head, or think only about sex, need to be told what to do cause cause cause..... lol.

[BlooInBloo]

64. :)

[varelse]

58. I hear a good deal of this anger voiced at work

Particularly now that I sit right next to a woman with two small children and a male partner who apparently doesn't work full time (as she does). Frequently overheard phrases as she's on the phone dealing with him:

"Why are you calling ME about this?" (Hint - it's because he can't or won't solve the problem himself, even though he is the one who is at home).

"Why didn't you (insert common-sense action here) instead of (what-was-he-thinking dumbass move goes here)?" (think leaving the sick baby with his young teenaged cousin while he goes to hang with "the boys")

Most frequent reason given for leaving early/coming in late/taking long lunch:

"I have to take the (baby, older child) in to see (pediatrician, teacher, etc) and I don't trust (male partner) to do it" (or he refused to keep the appointment, even though he's not working).

"My child is sick, and he's clueless about caring for her" (well yeah, he's been calling every 10 minutes with an "urgent" matter - that doesn't bolster her trust).

She also spends a LOT of time handling paperwork related to getting financial help from various government programs, something his "linear brain" apparently doesn't grasp.

So yeah, she loves him and at least he provides love and some financial support to the family, but yes... she's angry a LOT and she's not the only one.

Don't even ask me about all of the single mothers I've met who are providing the sole support for their children. That's anger on a whole different scale.

Some irrational or unreasonable anger seems to be present in every permutation of human relationships, but in my opinion most of this gender-biased anger would be resolved if both partners shared responsibility equally.

[redqueen]

133. "if both partners shared responsibility equally"

That's the crux of it, right there.

[snot]

60. With or W/o Kids, the BEST sitch a woman can hope for is the WORST most men face:

Both halves of most couples now work full-time or more, and few can afford to work less.

The BEST most women can hope for is a man who carries a full 50% share of the household chores.

The WORST most men face is having to carry 50% of the household chores.

But I know of very few households in which the chores are equally shared.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

74. Good thing I never had kids---

I'm a big believer in not doing something that will make you miserable.

kids aren't the trouble free pretty little cherubs we like to romantically imagine.

I s uppose there are joys, but there are a ton of sacrifices, heartache, frustrations. (And those are MILD adjectives. I've seen families put through the most horrific pain and setbacks, caused by their children.)

Sure, some people love kids and parenting, but for too many who don't even know themselves enough to know it isn't for them, it ends up being a miserable trap. It would be great if those who aren't suited were able to see other options: cultivating education and other interests, knowing there are many ways to get attention, feel wanted, etc........

know thyself

[Hello_Kitty]

89. I've noticed that having kids tends to intensify traditional gender roles

Couples without them seem to share chores and have a more egalitarian situation. I'm glad I don't have them too. Cleaning up after a household full of people would really tick me off.

[cherish44]

78. I'm from a small town

Here men are usually catered to and taken care of by women from the cradle to the grave. My ex husband's sole job was to bring home the bacon. Housework? Stuff involving the kids? Nah that's women's work. And yeah I had a job outside the house too. So yeah to get him to do anything domestic required a lot of nagging and bitching on my part. And no he's not an old timer, he was born in 1961.

[ismnotwasm]

86. Oh puke

"Clearly, a woman simmering in fury is a terrible thing: Redford Williams, M.D., whom Brockenbrough interviewed for the piece, says: "Anger kills. It’s not just that it can damage your heart — which it does — but it’s also been found in epidemiological studies to identify people who are more likely to have a heart attack or drop dead from any cause." But the real question here is: How does all this anger affect the kids? Children pick up on the slightest subtleties in their parents' moods. Is it healthy to know that your mother resents your father? And is the anger contagious?"

There are fairly well researched areas that show inequities in household tasks, with working women picking up more than a fair share of the household burden. Some are questionnaire based random samples, not exactly scientific, but take the flavor of things. Others are more formal studies.

That condescending paragraph is a bit sick. A better question might be, what subtle signals are the children picking up from the fathers response to a mothers anger, and the issues surrounding that anger?

Are these men being what's that term, "henpecked" --poor things-- with that nagging wife, who just won't shut up? And that anger justified or not is to be hidden, or stuffed or diverted into a healthy activity like shoplifting. Well I'd say weight lifting but these women don't have the time, and they tend to be the ones who buy supply for the whole family.

So exactly what is this paragraph implying, a situation perhaps, something like this?

AHEM (extreme sarcasm)

If women would calm the fuck down and understand that a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, you know, just stop busting their balls, we work hard too, man you don know what IT'S like at that job, and so what if they forgot a chore or two? I ain't got tits. Didn't I just fix the lawn mower, even though it's February? No respect, I gotta tell you I get no respect. Shit my mother always had dinner waiting on the table whenever the old man got home after busting his ass all day supportin' his family. That's when life was stable, not of this juvenile delinquent shit, or Kids and their back talk--backtalk, man I'd get the back of my old man's hand. Women fucked it up. Those bull dyke feminazis. Couldn't get laid with a paper bag over their head, that's their problem. Needed a man to set 'em straight.

Women are the ones who wanted "equal rights" so they got 'em right? Well now they pay the piper for that bullshit now, now don't they? And then they bitch about it. Fuck. A man is a man, and a man don't iron, vacuum or eat fucking quiche. Fuck. I'm calling up a couple of buddies and head for the titty bar because this bitch won't shut UP. She's fucking crazy, probably on the rag again, all hormonal and shit. I swear it's like living with Attila the fucking Hun or something.

(end extreme sarcasm)

In actuality, I think this article is taking a well known trend and is simply stirring the bullshit pot and not offering solutions. (Oh, and Dr ? I got some women's anger for you right here. It's Healthy as hell, I'll guarantee you)

[BlooInBloo]

92. I take it that you've never had a woman angry at you before. It can be genuinely unnerving....

Without the need to extrapolate beyond his words to the "nagging wife" crap.


EDIT: But yah, that probably *is* what he meant, in any case. :rofl:

[ismnotwasm]

100. Yeah, he sounds like an asshole doesn't he?

Most likely considers himself a well bred and well educated gentlemen who wouldn't say "shit" if he had a mouthful, as they say.

So I get carried away ya know? He started it, the fucker.

[reggie the dog]

88. this is evidence of progress

50% say "their husbands get more time for themselves." Brockenbrough writes:" so then 50 percent would say that they get more free time than their husbands too.....

[seabeyond]

93. that isnt the proper conclusion, lol. but good try. could be the other 50%

get equal time for themselves, lol.

[reggie the dog]

124. how do we determine time for ones self??

I am happy doing a half assed job with my work, I am not paid the salary of a teacher but do the job here in France so I do the job half assed which gives me more free time, my wife is a perfectionist so she spends more time on class preps. I end up having more free time, to do chores, because she works more. I prefer the chores because it is work for my family, I do it at my own pace, and it is much more rewarding than "work" for money. In the end we each have free time.

[seabeyond]

125. half assed? ya, you made a half assed conclusion here, lol. how does it

work for you

and are you gonna be pissed if you get fired for doing an half assed job?

i am not real impressed being paid for half assed job. i just do not respect that a whole lot

but you are willing to put it out, so obviously bothers you not.

[reggie the dog]

129. I work for less than a teacher works and they want me to do the

same job, there is such a shortage of people that they were willing to hire people to teach english even if they only had a high school diploma, so my job is secure. Why should I waste my time doing a good job for less than standard pay? I would much rather take care of my daughter.

[seabeyond]

130. so you do a half assed job teaching our children, cause your daughter is so very important

screw all the children and their education

wow

[reggie the dog]

132. pay me more than 780 euro a month

i do good enough to keep my job, but not too much, if i do too much for shit pay i undermine the "real" teachers who get real pay.

[seabeyond]

135. a world of selfishness that your pay is indicative of a child's education. n/t

[reggie the dog]

137. I gotta live

my status is "assistant" so why should I have the same responsibility as a teacher? I do not have the same title or pay. They want us assistants to do more and more real teachers work, they should just hire us as teachers.

[mwooldri]

112. It boils down to crap communication between the two parents.

Communicate better, and have one take the lead... and delegate. Caregiving is one project and society has usually deemed for the mother to be said caregiver. And anyone else helping out in caregiving may not come up to that said caregivers standards. I know, I get comments like "why did you dress your son in this?" and "why did you take him to McDonalds again?". I am not the perfect Dad, and when it comes to household chores, we're equal opportunity slackers and equal opportunity remediators (yes sometimes house gets real messy in the week then we spend all weekend blitzing it clean).

Add shiftwork to this and it gets "real fun". At least I do get some father-son time, for most part with doing the school run to and from school.

Dads get mad too. Sometimes they're a bit kid-like themselves and need some direction. Sometimes even we ask what we can do and we're told "nothing"... and at other times we get given certain things... did I say they don't get done to standards and we get chided and then we feel useless because we didn't do it right and then we're disincentivised to do it again. We want to help out, we want to feel useful but when we're told what we're doing is not good enough, then why bloody well bother because if we do it again, we're going to get told "not good enough."

If it's a case of things feel too uneven one way or another then it's sit down and PLAN TOGETHER. If needs be, buy a cork noticeboard, put it up on the wall, and make up chore lists for everyone to do. If chore lists are all done, then that person gets... FREE TIME! If not, well no free time for you. Even get the kids involved... give them little chores to do.

This is advice I give freely, and advice I need to follow too!

Mark.

[seabeyond]

113. very good points. i have heard women criticize when a hubby has a task

but really for me is the bigger one when the father is bonding, connecting and participating in kids life and then is criticized for the effort. that just steams me. when my hubby didn't do the kids like i do them, i would literally tell myself, his way, different way and he is doing what is important. nothing in the world is going ot make me correct and then discourage or down right make mad.

i dont like my husband telling me how to do things either.

but i do see it.

no one messes with my dishwasher though. it is my way, the only way, the correct way, lol lol. but then i would never ask him to fill the dishwasher or pack bags for a trip. he gets to pack the car however he wants.

[carlyhippy]

114. oh good grief, there were no articles in the paper when I had to do everything

when my kids were growing up, I just did it
Carly

[Evoman]

118. A great solution is not having kids at all. Then "mom" and "dad" can go on vacation,

eat out at nice restaurants, live a quiet and peaceful life full of love and friendship.

Kids ruin marriages. And they cause cancer. I read it in a book.

Double income no kids....the only way to live.

[seabeyond]

119. silliness, you. lol. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

120. It's an interesting phenomenon.

As fathers take a more active role parenting, moms become more frustrated at them.

I think this sentence is absolutely priceless:

"Of course, since the survey was for moms and about moms, there's no data about dads. Are they clueless? Or aware that they make their wives so upset?"

Unintentional humor is the best kind.

[SoCalDem]

123. They need to watch these, and re-evaluate their lives..

http://www.uctv.tv/search-details.asp?showID=12620
http://www.uctv.tv/search-details.asp?showID=12490

[snooper2]

126. This should be/is a good thread ROFL

Here- I'll boil it down for you...

If you are a stay at home mom and are bitching because you have to remember shoe sizes and when to take the brat to dance classs- STFU

If you are a working mom who also has to remember shoe sizes and pick up the kid from dance class after work and the husband is a lazy bastard who goes out drinking 3 times a week- Kick him the Fuck out

Preparing Dinner is something that should be shared evenly FYI ( Unless Dad always makes breakfast on Sat. & Sunday )- Then he gets a pass on one or two nights during the week.



Easy eh? Your Welcome from Dr. Snooper :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

127. and if you are an ass

calling kids brats for no particular reason

stfu

hey you are right.... insulting is so very easy

[snooper2]

134. you are learning

:rofl:

[seabeyond]

136. lol. n/t

[JackDragna]

128. I think a big part of this is our obsession with work culture.

Men are expected to do everything for the job - spend long hours, prepare endlessly, do whatever the boss says. This cuts into their family life, forcing their spouse to pick up the slack. On top of this, women have their own careers, often by choice, sometimes out of necessity to help put food on the table. I think we'd all be a lot better off with our home lives if all working people, men and women both, weren't driven with the lash by their superiors.

[aikoaiko]

140. More valium and chardonay will cure that

;)