To save his soul I tortured and killed my son

[dsc]

that is what Mary Griffith has to live with every day of her life. 25 years ago last year her son jumped off an overpass after she hounded and hounded him to change from gay to straight. She left Bible verses around the house, played religious programing loud enough for him to hear it and only it, prayed over him as he tried to sleep, and told him she had no son. Day after day, month after month, year after year this mother tortured this poor kid until he had no self respect left.

Mary is every bit the victim of religion run amok as Bobby, arguably even more of one. Mary didn't hate her son she feared for his eternal soul. In her mind she was saving him from a fate worse than death. In her mind she was saving him from eternal damnation and thus saving his soul. This is why so many of us on this board had such problems with McClurkin and Warren being given prominate platforms to spread their toxic messages. Thousands and thousands of gay and lesbian youth get hounded by well meaning parents who are influenced by these charlatans and quacks. For many of us this is literaly an issue of life and death. At one time ours, now our figurative children's. These people are every bit as bad as those who sell toxic cures to cancer patients. While promising to cure people they instead poison them and divert them from real cures.

Mary had her road to Damascus but too late. Now she serves as a terrible warning of what the likes of Warren and McClurkin bring. Experience is leaning from our own mistakes. Wisdom is learning from others. For the sake of gay kids yet unborn, let us put away the childish interpretation of scripture that Warren and McClurkin bring us and let us put them away while we are at it.

[lostnotforgotten]

1. Religion Is A Mind / Brain Virus That Just Keeps On Taking

eom

[SammyWinstonJack]

5. Organized Religion certainly is that.

:thumbsup:

[Zhade]

31. Unwarranted belief in superstitious that have no corroborating evidence do that.

And that's all religion, not just the organized kind. Also woowoo nonsense, too.

[DavidDvorkin]

39. You are correct

It's all the same.

[Christa]

61. 100% correct

All religions are to blame for superstition and unwarranted beliefs in old books written by uneducated men, with outdated, unwarrented, silly rules.

[Kalyke]

46. And atheists will never be given a place at the table because

of these types of obnoxious statements.

Believe what you do or don't want to believe, but don't call others superstitious or stupid if they don't.

Not all religious people believe literally in the Bible. I can believe both in the parables-as-teaching-tools in the Bible and in scientific evidence.

Most liberal Christians/Jews/Muslims, etc. aren't stupid. Their faith is just one part of their being.

[TechBear_Seattle]

53. Ok, ok, ok

Throwing salt over your left shoulder will ward off evil.
Breaking a mirror causes seven years bad luck.
You can tell future by scrying with a crystal ball or turning over cards.
A necklace of an angel will protect you from harm.
Never do anything important on a Friday the 13th.

Don't call others superstitious or stupid for believing such things.

[Greyhound]

57. Do you believe when you die you will go to heaven or hell?

Do you believe there is some omnipotent, omniscient super-being that watches everything you do and knows your every thought?

[Deep13]

77. Bullshit.

Sorry if you find the facts obnoxious, but we have been tip-toeing around people's bad ideas for centuries with nothing to show for it.

I don't want a seat at that table. I want to chop it up for kindling.

[hfojvt]

101. How about this fact?

If you want to disrespect people because of what they believe then you are a hypocrite if you cry foul when they do the same to you.

Also, you probably should not confuse a sweeping generalization with a fact.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

84. Yet a believer can say that atheists aren't true Americans and can't be patriotic

And not only get away with it, but have a very successful political career.

[PassingFair]

98. I'll shove you off of YOUR seat, then.

Jeez. You act like you own the table!

:crazy:

[Deep13]

75. agreed. nt

[AndrewP]

76. Exactly. I'm tired of having to fake that I have to "respect" people talking out of their head

[DesertFlower]

2. i saw the movie

"Prayers for Bobby" based on this story last night. i couldn't stop crying.

[dsc]

4. I am a big old baby when it comes to stuff like sad movies

I couldn't stop crying until about 11:30. The funeral scene got me and I just blubbered through much of the rest.

[DesertFlower]

8. me too. even thinking

about afterward, i kept crying.

my friend has been a lesbian for most of her adult life. she lived with her lover for 25 years. i asked her "don't you think your parents know"? she said "they thank me for not telling them".

[liberalhistorian]

25. The scene where she goes to the MCC at night in the rain

after a PFLAG (hope I have that right!) meeting and breaks down to the minister, realizing that SHE was the one in the wrong, that the reason that "God didn't cure her son" was because there was nothing wrong with him in the first place to be "cured", that it was her and not him, and her knowing that she was the main reason her son was dead, was, as a mother myself, almost too much to watch. To have to deal with the death of a child, especially suicide, is horrible enough. But to know that you and your actions were a major reason for it and that you were wrong all along would have been enough to have made me kill myself as well.

Of course, I don't understand her not accepting Bobby in the first place for being gay, (my son isn't gay, but I couldn't care less if he were, I'd want him alive and well and happy no matter what he was-my only concern would be for the shit that society would put him through simply because of who he was born to love, and that too many would see only his being gay and nothing else about him, viewing him through the prism of their hate and bigotry), but I thought the movie did a good job in explaining her perspective and motivation as well, and how painful it was for her also. And remember, it was thirty years ago when he first came out, when "gayness" was a much, much bigger and more "shameful" thing than it is now.

[checks-n-balances]

36. To me this movie was as much a commentary on fundamentalism

as it was about homosexuality. It highlights the (sometimes lethal, and at least, toxic) dangers of such black-and-white thinking - that which is devoid of the love and compassion that Jesus commanded us to have.

[Kindigger]

56. I have to agree

I watched the movie last night. I'm not gay, but I grew up in just such a household, and the parents so reminded me of my own; it was a jaw clenching experience.

To a great extent, the movie can be generalized to all children trying to grow up in that rigid atmosphere.

[ThatsMyBarack]

6. Me, too.

It made me think of how well the documentary For the Bible Tells Me So was so well put together (not that THIS film wasn't!).

[DesertFlower]

13. i didn't see that.

i'll check it out. thanks.

[malaise]

20. It was way too sad

Saw it last night as well

[TechBear_Seattle]

54. I tried to watch it, but couldn't

Too close to my reality, by far. Not my parents, thank goodness, but the parents of a boyfriend who was beaten to death by bashers, and whose fundamentalist Catholic parents tried to get me charged as an accomplice: "He wouldn't have been gay if you hadn't led him into sin."

[Phentex]

91. I cried too...

Nobody should ever be treated that way by anyone - family or not.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. I know this thread will attract those who put down all religion

But as a believer I will say that I, too, agree with you. The teachings of the prophets on how to live are inclusive and not condemning. Unfortunately, religion has often been used by charlatans who prey upon hate and ignorance. We must all stand together as one to speak truth to this ignorance.

[patrice]

11. Right! People should not confuse the Money Changers in the temple with those who humbly seek Truth.

[Midlodemocrat]

12. .

:applause:

:hi:

[liberalhistorian]

26. Exactly, this liberal Christian believer thanks you for

putting it so well!

[Warren DeMontague]

28. You can follow a path of kindness, compassion and tolerance without being religious.

Furthermore, I don't want to "put down all religion", but I do think that if one genuinely believes there is a giant invisible man in the sky with nothing better to worry about than what people are doing with their sex organs, they have a bit of a problem.

[timtom]

63. Giant man in the sky, indeed!

You shouldn't comment on religion with such a shallow, anthropomorphic concept! Perhaps if you studied comparative religion for a few months, you might come off as a bit more understanding.

[Baby Snooks]

72. The fundamentalists should study comparative religion...

Starting with Christianity. They are not Christians. They are hate-filled monsters who believe by hating everyone and everything that they believe god hates, god will love them and send them all to heaven. The real god hopefully will send them all to hell.

[timtom]

85. That goes without saying.

[Zhade]

33. As it's an excellent reason to put down all religion, you're correct that we'll show up.

It's not like religion's earned the deference of not asking the tough questions. Quite the opposite.

There are no prophets. Only those who call themselves such.

[Tsiyu]

47. never mind

K&R to the OP as well

[mrreowwr_kittty]

87. The "charlatans" just cherry pick different parts of the dogma than you do. nt

[Forkboy]

95. +1

[derby378]

7. I don't buy this "Mary's a victim" nonsense

She had a choice to make, and her choice was to henpeck her son into hurling himself off of an overpass. Why isn't she in jail?

[dsc]

9. because making people miserable so they commit suicide isn't a crime

among other reasons. That is why the woman who bullied a girl on MySpace causing her to commit suicide couldn't be prosecuted for that but instead for fraud. But she was a victim in that she honestly believed she was doing the right thing. She is like a mother who gives her kid a medicine in accordance to a doctor's orders but the doctor is a quack.

[Politicalboi]

80. There are no excuses for this woman

With all the info out there about gays in this century I blame her. I could see if she lived in the woods all alone with no TV, newspapers and just her fucking bible. She was embarrassed and ashamed of her son. She was only looking out for herself. It's too bad he didn't take her with him when he jumped. I bet she loves the attention she got for this. Fuck her and her religion. She is the one to blame for making him miserable.

[dsc]

83. 1982 was the dark ages for gays

We forget how different it is in the age of the internet but 1979-1982 when she engaged in this behavior gays were almost non existant as a media presence in much of the country. Your arguement would make much more sense today or even say 10 years ago than then.

[Phentex]

92. I agree. It was the same with racism...

there were plenty of people brought up thinking it was the norm.

It takes time for people to grasp certain concepts. There was a time when televsion wouldn't mention the word gay, much less have shows with gay characters or real-life talk shows with openly gay hosts.

[DesertFlower]

14. in the beginning of the movie

i cursed mary and her church, but she did realize she was wrong.

[patrice]

10. Solidarity, dsc and to all in the GLBT Community!

Parents should accept personal responsibility for the ethical development of their children, up to the age of reason and, then, short of empirical harm to self or others, they should appropriately reduce their influence and tell the young that the responsibility and consequences are their own and then parents should support decisions that have demonstrably beneficial effects upon their offspring and others and make themselves known on decisions that do harm, but, again, beyond empirical evidence that there is actual damage, the young MUST be allowed to own and LEARN from their own lives. If they can't own their own lives, they can't learn and the need to learn in order to make functional choices.

[sarge43]

15. We can take comfort that there are also thousands and thousands

of parents who rejoice in their GLBT children's happiness and reject the toxic messages.

[Zuiderelle]

22. But there are more parents who never actually "rejoice" in their GLBT children's happiness.

In the best of cases, there is usually still resistance and discouragement, in most cases, that resistance takes several years to be chipped away, and in many cases it never goes away fully. I know this anecdotally from my own experience and the experience of my past and present partners and from my close friends who are gay. Not ONE of us was accepted unconditionally or even APPROACHING joyfully when our parents found out we were gay. Not ONE of us.

There are very few parents in fact, that actually "rejoice" in their GLBT children's happiness. Coming to terms with it and accepting it is not rejoicing in it.

[liberalhistorian]

27. I think that that's going to be changing more and more

as the generations who were taught the "evilness" of homosexuality start to fade away and the younger ones take their place; it's already starting to happen. Some of my teenage son's classmates are gay and their parents are not only fine with it but proud of their children. Those parents are under 45. It's THEIR parents who have a problem with it.

I wouldn't have a problem with it if my son were gay, and neither would my mother, but I do know that my son's father sure would. But he's a pathetic uneducated loser who hasn't seen his son in over two years even though he only lives an hour away anyway, so who cares what the fuck he thinks. He's a military worshipper who never made any secret of wanting his son to join the military after high school, the way he wanted to but never could for health and physical reasons. He's even said "I'd be proud if my son died in a war for his country" when we were arguing about Iraq and the kid was only ten. Yeesh. It's probably a good thing he hasn't seen his father! Although he's got a young son with his wife, so I'm sure that indoctrination is proceeding apace.

[dsc]

29. I hope that is the case

in my work with my school's GSA it appears much slower here. I have parents who have given their kids DVD's extolling the virtues of changing. One girl literally asked me why I go to church given that I am gay (she is gay too) since I am clearly going to Hell.

[mnhtnbb]

30. We have a gay son. He came out to us in 2002 when he was in 10th grade.

He had known for years, but hid it from us. I wasn't surprised when he came out and it explained
a lot of things--including why a very bright kid started to have problems in school around 6th grade.

Hubby is a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst. He has a colleague and friend who he's known for many years
who is a well known gay psychiatrist/psychoanalyst in NYC. Hubby spoke to the NYC colleague,
and he and his partner issued an invitation for our son to come visit/stay with them for a weekend
in NYC. They hosted a party and our son was able to meet many of their successful gay friends.

Hubby has always talked to both of our sons about safe sex. He went with our gay son to the drugstore
and helped him select condoms and made sure that he knew how to use them.

We are very proud of our son. We want nothing but happiness for him. I've said many times on this board
that I hope to be mother of the groom at weddings for both my sons: I only hope that each of them is lucky enough to find someone to love for the rest of their lives.

[dsc]

34. that is so cool of you

and your husband. Your son is lucky indeed to have parents such as you. Hope he finds a great husband for himself.

[Zhade]

35. You rule!

NT!

[Zuiderelle]

37. That's wonderful. You're the exception, as well as a representation of younger parents...

and how much things have changed in the last 20 years. Either way, good on you! :thumbsup:

[mnhtnbb]

43. Except that we are older parents. I was 35 when our son (and the first) was born; hubby was 43.

[Zuiderelle]

50. I mean, younger people who are now parents. (Anyone under 50 in this context.)

Being that I am 46 (and have a 6-year-old myself), my experience of parents being less accepting has been related to the generation of my parents and somewhat younger, but no younger than 50. I think that in general people under age 50 are more accepting than people over age 60. The rate of acceptance has certainly been going up, but I still doubt very much that any significant portion of parents, no matter what generation, "rejoice" when they find out that their children are gay.

[mnhtnbb]

69. It's very hard to rejoice when you learn that your child is now in a category

which puts him at risk for being a target of a hate crime, or at the very least, various kinds
of discrimination, some of which is legal. It's recognizing that you know that other people
are going to make life more difficult for your child because of the bigotry and hatred that exists
in this country.

[Zuiderelle]

78. Yes, I know. That's what I mean. It's why I have a problem with someone saying that thousands of

parents rejoice. It minimizes the very fact that there are very few who rejoice at all. Whether it be for legitimate reasons, such as you describe, or simply because of bias and fear. There's really not much rejoicing going on when a parent discovers that their child is gay.

I think we're agreeing here.

[Mad_Dem_X]

45. You are a terrific mother and a wonderful person

God bless you!

[Forkboy]

96. The complete opposite approach than the one Mary had taken.

And so much healthier, for all of you.

:thumbsup:

[unapatriciated]

44. You are right about accepting and coming to terms....

I know I was guilty of just that for many years after my daughter told me when she was 18 (now 35). I was pretty open yet my daughter still feared losing my acceptance (never my love) and spent her teenage years hiding who she was.
It wasn't until she was attacked simply because of who she was and I almost lost her did I start rejoicing. She has gone through some bad relationships (like we all do) and has had some good relationships (one who I still secretly hope will come back in her life}.
She has yet to find her life-mate and when she does I will rejoice and hopefully plan a wedding.

[1776Forever]

16. Sigourney Weaver & Ryan Kelley are outstanding in this true life movie!

Prayers for Bobby appeared on Lifetime and is also a book “Prayers for Bobby” by Leroy Aarons.

It will be playing a couple of times more on Lifetime so if you missed it please try and catch it again. I wish I had a way to tape it for later viewing. I was very moved by Weaver's portrayal of the mother - It was really a very personal performance from the heart I felt. I hope she and Ryan Kelley win an award for their acting. The entire cast as well as the writers did a superb job!

Viewing times here:

http://www.mylifetime.com/on-tv/movies/prayers-bobby/about

[patrice]

18. Thanks for the information!

:hi:

[checks-n-balances]

38. It's on again tonight at 8:00 EST on Lifetime

Thanks for posting the schedule.

[tbyg52]

17. Any religion that believes in hell has a problem, in my book.

This is the kind of thing that comes of it.

[patrice]

19. I believe in Hell, but I'm not a religion. I believe Hell is In-authenticity and I believe that it

is possible/real here and now.

[tbyg52]

21. I see your point.

I was thinking about the "eternal torture with no hope of getting out" kind.

[patrice]

23. Well . . . one in-authenticity leads to another, so one gets further and further away

from one's real sources of energy and motivation, so yes, I see that as torture with decreasing hope of the freedom brought by truth.

I think the problem with religion is that it got way tooooooooo mystical/other-worldly, little or very indirect connection between the ideals and reality.

I believe that physical reality ( all of it) has emergent properties that are a result of the fact that the whole IS greater than the sum of its parts. Some of these emergent properties are of the sort that Our President referred to in his Inaugural Address when he said "These things are old. These things are real." The more one looses sight of that which is real, the more one suffers and causes suffering, no matter how pretty the stories are about it all.

[Liberal_in_LA]

24. so she's still around! I didn't realize that. Here's what she saying:

http://www.oasisjournals.com/Issues/9512/fea0795-prayers.html

Griffith says she no longer practices any organized religions, but still maintains her own spirituality.

"My basic belief now is that any ideology or creed that undermines our self-esteem or a human being is abusive," she says. "It's not worth tormenting a child and making them live in misery and pain. It's next to child abuse, and that's certainly what unknowingly happened to Bobby."

And teaching the lesson she painfully learned to other parents is something Griffith says she will do forever.

"Parents don't realize that they are their child's lifeline," she says. "Kids need that home base, that comfort at home. That really is all that matters."

[1776Forever]

40. When you see the picture of Bobby and his Mom it really breaks your heart.

I am sure this Mother tries her best to live her life now to restore what she can for the love of her precious son. It really is abhorrent to me to think that some religious groups like Rick Warren's church try to be the judge on how others live their lives. I know my sister has this mind set and believes GLBT people have a choice. Until that time that people like these who say they love God stop being judges, the true message of Jesus will never be born out. Love is the answer. Complete and utter unconditional love.

[checks-n-balances]

32. k & r

I hope lots of parents have watched (or will watch) this movie!

:kick:

[Th1onein]

41. I watched that show, too. What a tragedy.

As a mother who has lost a son to disease, I can't imagine what it would be like to lose a son because of my own actions.

Mary deserves our pity. I hope she can forgive herself her ignorance.

[dsc]

42. I don't know if I could

if I were her.

[Th1onein]

104. Yeah, you could.

You'd have to. Or stop living, I think.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

48. K&R

[.... callchet ....]

49. You are who god made you

Short , tall, big, small. Throw a football a hundred yards, make a living cutting yards. You owe no apology to anybody for who you are. Some have great crosses to bear, some have pretty coats to wear. Be proud, I'll stand with you , no matter who you are. k&r

[pipi_k]

51. What would crazy people do if there were no religion?

or...

which came first...the crazy or the religion?

I know I have a tendency to blame ALL religion for the crazy shit that happens in the world, and it's probably wrong to do that, but I still have to ask the question:

Why are so many crazy people attracted to religion in the first place?

I'm sure there are lots of reasons.

And so I ask another question...if there were no religion for crazy people to embrace, what would they do? Would they have to invent religion? Is that what happened in the first place? Some people were a little....ahem...disturbed, and decided to invent a fantasy world in which they could act out all their darkest, scariest issues in a socially acceptable manner and then inflict their fears on their children and anyone else vulnerable enough?

This isn't to say that all people of Faith are lunatics, but it does seem like religion offers way too many opportunities for the whackos to run wild.

[Greyhound]

58. I think there would be far fewer crazy people if it didn't exist. n/t

[gollygee]

52. Oh my God

I am 9 months pregnant and hormonal as nobody's business. I put this on Tivo and watched it and I've been bawling my eyes out! Such senseless tragedy. :(

If my children don't grow up knowing they are unconditionally loved - totally and completely just as they are - I will not have done my job.

[ScreamingMeemie]

55. As I work to save my son...

...not his soul, not from himself, but from the fears I have that guilt and genetics will take him from me far too soon because he worries he is his father/grandfather/great-grandfather's son, your words ring so very true. Our children don't need twisted notions of "faith" and "religion" as much as they need love. Just love, and acceptance.

Thanks dsc. I don't think I could bring myself to view that movie.

[Moostache]

59. Tired of the kid glove treatments...

Legitimate people of faith have an absolute obligation to STOP apologizing for the bat-shit crazies among the ranks of the 'believers' and to START exposing them for the control-freak manipulators and hypocrites that they are. They have a moral obligation to denounce those who blaspheme in their names or those who pervert the tenets of their belief system through personal interpretation and selective implementation of those interpretations. As soon as someone can explain to me why capital punishment of insolent teenagers is not OK (Bible SAYS it IS) but persecution of gays is perfectly legitimate - without resorting to tortured abuse of logic or semantics - then they can go right on their merry way and have as many "I-am-terrified-of-gays-so-I-will-persecute-them-to-feel-better-about-me" parties as they want. Until and unless they are actively campaigning to interpret the message of their faith through modern realities; and live a life based on theory and philosophy of intent, instead of sophistry and dogmatic proclamations, then they should simply remain silent and ashamed of what happens in their name by association.

This is true of ALL religions - Muslims who fail to DAILY repudiate suicide bombers and extremists, Jews who fail to call Zionists to the carpet for their provocations and actions to undermine peace and Christians who do not speak out on the completely insane notion that the Bible is literal in any way or that the prohibitions on homosexuality are no more germane today than the endorsements of slavery in the Bible.

I am sick and tired of the religious nut bags and their sycophantic sympathizers controlling the debate and setting the terms of the discussion; then having the chutzpah to actually feign indignation when a non-believer voices an opinion in harsh terms or non-delicate language. Let me put it to you this way - if your belief in the ultimate authority is so tenuous that the mere verbal or written constructs of a mere human being can cause you doubt or pain or anguish or anger as relates to your professed belief, then your so-called belief is nothing but a show for others, a canard of sorts, false, self-serving (not god-serving0, weak and un-befitting of what you would call 'god'.

As far as I am concerned, humanity is doomed as a species until it can free itself from the yoke of fundamentalist beliefs and dogmatic lunacy of all stripes. A spade is a spade whether the person describing it calls it a derogatory term, a clinical term or a politically correct term. The ultimate irony to me is that so many believers fail to recognize or even acknowledge this.

[Strong Atheist]

73. Welcome to DU! nt.

[TrogL]

79. Can I quote you?

I need pretty much exactly these thoughts for a newspaper article.

[Moostache]

99. sure...

but I would probably edit out the part about "bat-shit crazies"....paper editors are notoriously unbending on that whole profanity thing...:D

[mrreowwr_kittty]

88. Very well said. Thank you.

Religious fundamentalism is the single biggest threat to humanity, IMHO.

[Two Americas]

90. many do

Many do just what you suggest, and this battle has been going on since the beginning of time.

I think there is a universal urge among humans to contemplate intangible and imaginary things. This takes many forms. I don't think there is such a thing as humans who do not run their lives on imaginary and intangible things, and even if there were it would not necessarily be a good thing if they did. I fear those who deny this and claim to be completely rational as much as OI fear anyone who does not. That usually means they are basing their lives on unexamined ideas.

There is also an urge to then turn those musings into religion and harness that to wealth and power, dominance and exploitation. Those urges to contemplate intangible things and postulate answers to "why are we here" and "who are we" is not going to go away, I don't think. Religion is more the study of that then the cause of that.

Religions don't start out as religions. Most start as anti-religions, and a common theme is "just contemplate and appreciate and love each other and the good things about life, that came from wherever - God, the Great Spirit, etc. - and leave your neighbor alone. Clean up your own backyard and try to be a good person." Then a few get to work to figure out how to get around that, how to turn it inside out and use it to dominate and persecute others.

[Forkboy]

97. Now THAT'S how to make a splash.

Excellent, excellent post!!!

Welcome to DU. :toast:

[jonnyblitz]

102. oustanding post!!

:hi:

[closeupready]

60. Brilliant! Y'know, I'm reminded of the story posted in GLBT, the guy who tried blinding himself as

a teenager, because he'd get excited at the sight of other guys. I think only if you are gay can you connect with that story, and understand what he was feeling, that he would feel compelled to deliberately stare at the sun like that.

yes, this is why fucking McClurkin and Warren pissed me off.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

62. You know, I bet this kind of shit doesn't happen with atheist parents.

Just saying.

[gollygee]

64. Oh, I don't know

Not the specifics maybe, but my parents are atheists, or at least agnostic leaning toward atheist (as am I), and they are about as homophobic as they come. If a sibling or I were gay, it would have been ugly in my house. They would have had different specific issues with it but they would have made a gay kid's life hell on earth too.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

66. Somehow I don't think it carries the same oomph without the threat of hell to back it.

But otherwise yeah, there are homophobic atheists. But there also are non-smokers who get lung cancer, and thin athletic people who get heart attacks.

[gollygee]

67. Yes the hellfire and damnation thing makes it scarier

The worst that would have happened in my family is estrangement. Which is awful but there wouldn't have been any fear of eternal suffering.

[krabigirl]

82. It sure won't happen to my kids! Or any of their friends, if I can help it...

[dsc]

86. Good for you

The life you save could be your child's.

[Froward69]

65. In HS the establishment went

up in arms over how the suicide rate among teenagers was skyrocketing.

the astonishment died down when it was revealed 7 of 10 attempts or actual suicide deaths were because the teen was Gay. M or F did not matter.

[TrogL]

81. Was it the astonishment or the uproar that died down

"Oh, it's only gay kids suiciding. Nothing to worry about."

[Froward69]

103. I am not sure

as for myself I had the "normal" my life is over moments. then I developed a perspective that people who off themselves are really quitters.
(I have dealt with LOTS of death in my life.) for awhile there if I mourned every death for say 6 months. I would have not smiled for 10 years.


the uproar simply died down as the suicide rate remained the same. now the uproar is; why are well off kids from affluent school districts offing themselves? Gayness is not raised as an issue.

[mike_c]

68. religion = insanity....

It is mental illness, plain and simple. Those who believe in invisible sky people are nuts.

[tnlefty]

70. Thanks for posting about this or I would've missed it.

Last night when I mentioned that I was going to watch this movie, a loud chorus of "chick flick"began, but all of the family watched it, and it led to some nice discussion time with my sons afterward.

One of the saddest elements of this tragic story to me was that Mary couldn't begin to expand her mind or to question until it was too late. No matter how often he said that he couldn't change, no matter the pain that he was in nor the pain that she caused herself, the thought to question any of her beliefs just didn't occur to her.

Although it's too late for Bobby and to avoid a lifetime of pain for her and her family, I'm glad that she is working with gay youth and their families.

[Strong Atheist]

71. K&R. nt.

[Deep13]

74. This was the logical result of her irrational beliefs.

If you start from the premise that nonconformity to religious dogma results in eternal damnation and that only prayer can save such a person, then this is the logical result of that belief. Nothing is quite as horrifying as someone who is about to do something horrible because he or she is convinced that god wants it so.

"These people are every bit as bad as those who sell toxic cures to cancer patients. While promising to cure people they instead poison them and divert them from real cures."
So what the hell are they supposed to do? Sorry, but you can just die because we feel the side effects are too unpleasant. We used to use chemotherapy for infections because we had nothing else. Mercury for syphilis, for example. When the magic bullet of antibiotics were discovered int he 1930s, so-called because thewy killed germs while not harming healthy tissue, all those toxic treatments were scrapped. We don't have a magic bullet for cancer. Nevertheless, surgery, radiation and chemotherapy does work sometimes so it would be irresponsible not to use them. The mother in this story failed because there is no such thing as sin, homosexuality is not a disorder and prayer doesn't work anyway.

[CraftyGal]

89. Anybody know the name of the movie?

Never mind I find it....

Here is an interview by Scott Bailey that is very moving...http://www.afterelton.com/blog/brianjuergens/straight-actor-gay-education-scott-bailey-on-his-prayers-for-bobby-experience">It is called "A straight actor's gay education: Scott Bailey on his "Prayers for Bobby" experience". Read it is a wonderful interview.

CraftyGal

[Sandrine for you]

93. disgusting, This woman should go to jail. murder 3e degree.

And his religious leader should be prosecute for bieng complicite of a murder.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

94. Take advantage of this special offer!

[Steely_Dan]

100. So, Can Someone (a Christian) Answer This For Me?

If God is all-knowing and if he/she/its will will be done...what is the point of praying?

Here's another one...

Is it necessary to be a Christian to be a "good" person?
(Christian usually answers "no.")
And the only way to get into heaven is to accept Jesus as your personal saviour, right?
(Christian usually answers "yes.")
Then can I conclude that God does not accept good people into heaven?
(Christian usually doesn't have an answer).

-P