Two people dead, seven hurt in Miami AK-47 shooting

[Junkdrawer]

MIAMI - Denise Grant, 34, was in the kitchen of her third-floor apartment across the street when she heard gunshots. "It was like ba-ba-ba-ba-bam and then blam, blam, blam," she said.

She said she dove to the floor and yelled at her four kids in the apartment to do the same. Five minutes later, when the gunshots stopped, she ventured outside. "When I opened the door, I just saw people lying down in the street, screaming," she said.

A man wielding an assault rifle had fired into a crowd of people playing an outdoor game of dice Friday night, killing two local teenagers, police said. Seven other people were wounded.

...

City officials, community activists and the police chief gathered at the shooting scene - Northwest 14th Avenue and Northwest 71st Street - Saturday morning begging for witnesses to help identify the shooter, and to decry the rise in assault-weapons attacks.

"There were a lot of people out there last night, and it's understandable that some are afraid to come forward, but we will take anonymous tips," said Miami Police Chief John Timoney.

Timoney said the homicides last year from assault weapons has jumped to 29 percent of all shooting fatalities. "These are weapons of war and they don't belong on the streets of Miami or any other street in America," said Miami Mayor Manny Diaz.

....

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/...

Seems to me that "Assault Weapons" are becoming a real problem...

[kenny blankenship]

1. Assault weapons don't killl people, AMERICANS kill people.

They should ban Americans and leave Chinese made Russian assault weapons ALONE!

Assault weapons are as innocuous as they sound.

[The Straight Story]

40. define assault weapon. Okay, I will:

See the U.S. Code of 2004 section on firearms.<1> Very generally speaking, a firearm is defined by these laws as an assault weapon if it has both a detachable magazine and a pistol grip, sometimes in conjunction with other features such as a folding stock or a flash suppressor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon

So that scary term (assault) boils down to looks more than anything (and some hand guns and shotguns could and do fall under the term).

But hey, it sounds bad so we can blame those types of guns for crime and any one who defends them sounds like they favor 'bad' guns.

A few weeks back I put together an assault weapon with my friend - it was basically an every day type gun that looked scary. And scary looking things make people do weird things like blame them for others' actions and try to ban them.

[Paladin]

45. Those Scary Features Are Exactly Why Guys Like You Buy Them. (n/t)

[The Straight Story]

48. I don't own a gun, thanks for playing though :) (nt)

[Paladin]

52. Scary Gun Features Are Why Scary Guns Sell.

And, contrary to the the standard gun nut litany, it's not scary gun features that people are afraid of. It's the actions of the scary people who find those scary features irresistible. And there is daily proof that such fear is justified.

[The Straight Story]

54. More of a comfort reason for my friend

The gun handles and feels better (he target shoots).

If they are not scared of the gun features then why the assault weapon ban when function is the same but looks are different?

[Paladin]

81. Because Of The Mindset That Goes With The Belief......

....that a rifle isn't worth owning unless it's got a 20-round magazine, a flash suppressor and a bayonet lug. In other words, firearms designed to kill human beings rather than game animals or paper targets. The sick fantasies that accompany the ownership and use of such weapons have taken shooting sports in this country right into the toilet. As always, abundant daily confirmation of this is available in our very own DU Gun Dungeon.....

[spanone]

46. AK 47 sounds like a bad bun

[villager]

2. Don't worry -- the gun nuts will soon swarm this thread, yammering about how the jump in homicides

...could just as easily been from Ninja stars or piano wire...

[DBoon]

6. or if the victims had assault weapons

they would have fired back in self-defense and killed the crook

Because we all know, if the good guys have firearms, they good guys will never lose

Firearms are magic in that way. The more people have them, the more the good and righteous will triumph.

[villager]

16. Yes! That's right! Let's arm everyone in a crowd with an assault weapon!

You're right -- that will be another refrain we're bound to hear, as well...

[DBoon]

18. I think I should have put a sarcasm tag in my post

I was referencing the miraculous properties of firearms as part of the dogma of the Church of the Holy Handgun.

In the Middle Ages, the relics of saints were thought to possess miraculous qualities, as attested by the one true Catholic Church.

In 21st century America, firearms are similarly considered miraculous, as attested by the Church of the Holy Handgun.

[villager]

31. I'm agreeing with you!

Perhaps I should've put the sarcasm tag in my header, but I hope the text was clear that I agree with your assertion that those worshiping the holy reliquaries of the Great God Gun will soon be braying that we need more more more!

[Hugabear]

14. Didn't take long at all

Look at post #5.

[krispos42]

17. Ah, but the anti-gun people got here first

So does that fall under your definitin of "swarming"?

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. or knives or cars or even forks

[stillcool]

3. Generation Kill...

[krispos42]

21. Sorry, that was a couple of generations ago

Generation Xers, born from 1961 to 1981, were Generation Kill. And this was before the popularity of military-derived semiautomatic rifles and double-stack handguns.







The firepower of the American civilian has never been higher than now. There are more semiautomatic tactical rifles in the hands of the gun-owning public and more unrestricted capacity magazines than ever before. There are more double-stacked handguns with 13, 15, 17, and even 19 round capacities than every before.

And yet, even when you look at multiple homicides we're doing a lot better.




In 1976, when the homicide rate was TWICE what it is today, 97% of victims were killed in single-victim attacks. Now it's 95%.



If Democrats don't trust the media to talk about nearly anything else, why do they all of a suddent rust the media for this stuff?

[stillcool]

26. Sorry...but you ain't seen nothing yet..

Cause and Effect.

[Norrin Radd]

32. Gen-Xer, here. Graduated from high school in 1991.

Looks like the rates dropped precipitously during my 20's/the first flush of my adulthood.

[krispos42]

44. Yeah, it bled over into the Baby Boomers

There were several things that IMO caused the big drop in the '90s, and the '93 "ban" wasn't one of them.

[madrchsod]

4. big escalation of fire power on the streets of american cities.

cheap ak`s are coming into the usa probably from mexico. the cops in chicago have upgraded their weapons to counter the ak`s...

[Greyhound]

37. There you go,

The City of Chicago, flush with cash after declaring all of it's citizens freed from poverty and disease, and after balancing it's budget has found that spending 10s of millions of dollars to arm it's beat cops with weapons that will never be used (until the city declares war on itself) is the best way to deal with this rising wave of crime in Florida.

[otohara]

70. Yesterday on CBS News - This Frightening Report

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4751393n%3fsourc...

[-..__...]

5. No...

inner city rapscallions with little or no regard for human life are becoming a "real problem", but it's more convenient (and simple minded), to blame the (a), symptom rather than the disease.

[Mojorabbit]

7. It is only going to get worse

as the economy tanks.

[xchrom]

11. lol -- come kalashnikitty --

a see how afraid the bad guys are of you here in oakland.

puh-leeze

[-..__...]

89. You've identified part of the problem...

these thugs aren't afraid of anyone... not the police, prosecutors, rival gangs or getting killed.

[Hugabear]

15. "Inner city rapscallions"?

I suppose it has nothing whatsoever to do with the easy access to powerful assault weapons. A group of "inner city rapscallions" armed with knives or piano wire would be just as dangerous as if they were armed with assault rifles.

[krispos42]

23. considering that two-thirds of all firearm homicides are by handguns...

... and that gun-control laws and gun bans affect the dishonest least and last, maybe the problem isn't "assault weapons" after all.



The Bush Doctrine of dropping a bomb on every terrorist until they're all dead makes no sense, and neither does trying to take away everybody's gun so the criminals can't use them.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Threedifferentones]

76. lol

Yeah, how paranoid of someone to think that all the people on DU who want to ban guns actually mean it.

Obviously they're all just kidding, why worry?

[krispos42]

22. It's a hardware problem, doncha know

It's not terrible gubmint policy or intergenerational poverty... it's a hardware problem!

[HillbillyBob]

8. I used to live near there. Illegal weapons will be carried by

gangsters, making assault weapons unlawful will not change a thing.
I am not arguing for keeping them legal, I don't think we need assault weapons at all really. Except keepin those guys with the white sheets off my lawn.
If you are hunting deer, then you should either get that buck with one shot.
It does not matter how many laws you pass against guns, criminals will get guns.
Having some kind of registry does help eliminate some guns/suspects, but that is all it does, help sort things out.
These AK47s are unlawfully imported so they start out black market and untraceable and stay that way until seized by law enforcement.

[Fireweed247]

9. Why are there so many psychos in America?

I was just watching Bowling for Columbine the other day and Michael Moore made the point that other countries have just as many guns as Americans, they watch the same violent movies and play the same violent video games...but the difference in violent killings is just astounding!

[HillbillyBob]

12. Ask the ghost of st runnyraygun, who defunded the system to keep the

seriously mental ill off the street. Now they run loose and call themselves evangelical soldiers for kkkrist and get together and breed more of the little nazis. its all good doncha know.
We have gays, god and guns in our house but we don't go preachin hate or pushing crazy ideas on people on the street (like those flyer pushers that come to your door on early weekend mornings). We don't shoot at random strangers..just the ones that attempt to burn crosses on the yard..and it has been quite awhile since they tried that.... a 12g pump is pretty convincing in most cases usually takes after about 2 shots.

[tblue37]

27. Yep--and other democracies don't kill their leaders.

We, on the other hand, have lost several that way.

[Hannah Bell]

34. ?? sure they do. in the same period as mlk et al there was aldo moro

in italy, olaf palme in sweden, several others assassinated.

not to mention parts of the world where assassination occurs every other election cycle.

[tblue37]

62. I was thinking of presidents. nt

[Hannah Bell]

84. they were both prime ministers - equivalent of our pres.

[Greyhound]

38. That's been the real question all along. By any measure or standard, it's us,

we are the problem. One of the surest ways to start a fight, though, is to point that out.

I wish Michael Moore has been able to answer the question in his film. He gave several plausible explanations, none of which is unique to America, but none of them were answers. We just love to kill each other and we don't know why.

[chrisa]

39. Poverty

Inner cities are cast aside and forgotten.

[TheWraith]

83. It's mostly about poverty.

Canada has nearly as many guns per capita as the US does, but a microscopic fraction of our gun death rate, because they have serious policies in place to try and prevent poverty. If you trace it back, the large majority of US gun deaths result from it one way or another: poverty leading to gangs, leading to gang murders. Poverty leading to theft, leading to accidental killings. Poverty leading to hopelessness, leading to desperate people killing others or committing suicide.

[SidDithers]

10. Happiness is a warm gun...

Bang Bang, Shoot Shoot

Sid

[Blue Dog Dominion]

13. When breaking up an illegal game of craps, a Kalashnikov is choice

Those chances are it's probably a cheap Chineese knockoff. I doubt he modded his to fully auto because he actually HIT something.

[krispos42]

19. over 100 rounds fired, two killed, and 7 wounded.

Yeah, I love how high-powered and deadly an "assault weapon" is.

I'll bet 1,000 lira that the guy was spray-firing from the hip which, according to the Brady people, makes "assault weapons" especially deadly and why protruding (ergonomic) pistol grips should be banned.


The more idiots fire long guns from the hip and shoot pistols while holding them sideways, the safer we'll all be.



And they found casings from a 2nd gun, so somebody was shooting back at the guy with the Kalishnakov.

Timoney said the homicides last year from assault weapons has jumped to 29 percent of all shooting fatalities. "These are weapons of war and they don't belong on the streets of Miami or any other street in America," said Miami Mayor Manny Diaz.

I really do wish that when they say things like this, they would first of all tell what definition of "assault weapon" they are using, and 2nd of all provide some numbers as to how the overall scheme of things is going.

[depakid]

42. One clip from a semi auto is enough: 2 Dead 7 wounded in Portland- Jan 24th

Aaron Hull, 18, of Salem said he and some friends had tried to get into The Zone and were 30 to 40 yards away when they heard gunfire. As they ducked and ran, they heard about nine shots; it "sounded like a whole clip got emptied," Hull said.

They walked around the block and turned to see bodies on the sidewalk. Hull said people were screaming and running.

The Portland Police Bureau's Gang Enforcement Team Lt. Mike Leloff said the shooting does not appear to be gang-related.

<snip>

As officers tried to sort through a chaotic scene, witnesses gave similar accounts of multiple shots being fired and numerous people injured.

Alexandra Paulus, 18, said a 16-year-old friend was shot while standing in line outside The Zone. His mother had called Paulus to go downtown and help find out what happened to her son as she headed there, too. Paulus said her friend had been shot in the leg, and his wound did not appear to be serious.

Joel Walker, 27, was going downtown to help a friend open his bratwurst cart business across the street from Kells. He saw at least three people loaded into ambulances.

"One of the girls looked pretty bad," he said. "Her friends were crying."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/01/po...

2 mass shooting in one day!

Wonder what the record is?

Ain't firearms proliferation great!

[krispos42]

50. Note that the gun was not mentioned

So it was probably a pistol of some kind.

Not the difference in coverage... if it's a pistol, it's barely a burp on the national news, but if it's some kind of AK derivative....






followed by a cop holding an example of an AK-style rifle and the sorrowful words of the local Brady campaign staffer chiding us on how dangerous such "battlefield" weapons were.

[depakid]

51. 2 dead 7 wounded in Witchita Kansas last night

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iQi_N...

That's a three-fer for the gun obsessed

Congradulations.

3 mass shootings- 6 dead 21 wounded in one day!

Meanwhile- all is quiet down under- not a shot to be heard anywhere in the nation on the eve of Australia day (when tons of folks are drunk).

Now why do you suppose that is?

Frankly- I feel sorry for you- having condemned your society to so many senseless and repeated mass shootings.

I guess it goes without saying that Aussies made a choice in the 1990's to be smarter than that.

[krispos42]

53. There are an average of 43 homicides a day in the United States

As to Australia...




Yay. No net change, but now everybody is being killed singly by knives and clubs.

[cliffordu]

65. How many people were killed by cars today?

I wonder what the record is.

Ain't modern motoring GREAT???

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[New Dawn]

20. If guns were banned, Americans would kill each other with knives

If knives were banned, Americans would kill each other with forks. The problem is US society, not weapons. Canada and Finland have tons of guns too, but they do not have the murder rates that the US has. Finally, if guns were banned, only the rich, their government, and criminals would be armed. That is why progressive, working class people oppose banning guns.

[cliffordu]

28. I'm partial to Runcible Spoon murder myself.....

[B o d i]

30. Drive by sporking ftw!

[tom_paine]

33. There something HILARIOUS about the word "runcible". This is DUzy-worthy!

Runcible. heh-heh heh-heh

[cliffordu]

61. I couldn't stop laughing

in Gravity's Rainbow when Pig Bodine sets up a runcible spoon fight on the deck of a destroyer......The two combatants slash away at each other to exaustion with little more than rug burns to show for it....

[old mark]

35. Guns are virtually banned in Brtiain, and killings with knives and other

weapons are at record highs.

Sorry, antis - it's the nut holding the gun who is responsible, not the tool.

Maybe if we changed the history of the US, along with the education and mental health systems, and then eliminated illegal drugs, alcohol and poverty we could begin to work on human nature and change this killing thing.


mark

[olegramps]

49. Comparison of murder rates in U. K and U.S.

The murder rate in the U.S. is .042802/1000 as compared to the U.K. which is .0140633/1000. You are three times more likely to be murdered in the U.S. than in the U.K.

[Statistical]

55. How do you explain Finland, Switzerland, or Canada?

Finland: 2.75 per 100,000 (high gun ownership)
Switzerland: 2.94 per 100,000 (high gun ownership including storing AUTOMATIC weapons at home for national defense)
Canada: 1.85 per 100,000 (very high gun ownership)

United Kingdom: 2.03 per 100,000 (virtually no private ownership)
United State: 5.70 per 100,000


Also interesting is that homicide rate in United States has FALLEN over last decade. Despite MORE gun control in the 1980s and 1990s including the utterly stupid 1994 AWB crime rates have fallen to lowest levels recently despite INCREASED gun ownership, LOOSER restrictions, MORE conceal carry.

Maybe Americas love affair with violent isn't linked to guns?


* total homicide numbers are far more useful than "murders" since different countries define murder differently (a very strict def of murder would result in low murder rate and higher manslaughter/negligent homicide rates).

[cliffordu]

68. Fuck me. Don't be bringing any facts 'n figures into this screechfest or you'll

upset the specious idea that it's GUNS that do all the killing.

Assholes and, lately, Oakland Ca. Rent-a-cop/transit cops kill people.

[krispos42]

85. And 35 years ago, you were 12 times as likely

We're getting better, they're getting worse. And in that timeframe, the firepower of the averge American has gone UP while firepower of the averge Briton has gone DOWN.

[depakid]

43. Could one person kill 2 and wound 7 as in the post above?

That's why sensible progressive don't support firearms proliferation.

[Statistical]

56. How about 3 dead and 12 wounded?

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/81404/Three-ki...

[depakid]

58. Every now and again one pops up- but if you're really "statistical" and honest

You'll cede the point.

Incidents of multiple firearms deaths occur more frequently by orders of magnitude.

[Statistical]

63. However deaths by "assault weapons" are a tiny minority

Per FBI Crime Statistics
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/expanded_infor...

Homicides by Weapon Type:
10,086 killed by firearms

450 killed by rifles
854 killed by hands/feet/fists
1796 killed by knives

450 killed by ALL RIFLES. So called assault rifles were such a tiny minority <1% that FBI doesn't even categorize them.

450 killed by RIFLES vs 1796 killed by KNIVES.

I assumed you were talking about banning so called "assault weapons" (the ones like in the article used in a minority of crimes).

If you are talking about banning all guns well sorry I don't think violating the Constitution is a progressive idea. Anyways Heller vs DC makes it very clear that a complete ban is illegal.

[depakid]

86. Heller says nothing of the sort

and if you don't think assault weapons are a part of the problem- and another disaster waiting to happen, simply run a Google news search with the keywords like AK-47.

See what pops up.

As to repsonsible gun regulations that would deal with the massive proliferation in the US- as a practical matter, that would require federal intervention on a scale many vocal Americans (and corporate manufacturers) are currently unprepared to accept. The nation is far too reactionary and full of fear for anything like that.

Instead, you mass shootings every couple of weels along with other senseless firearms death- and the worlds largest and most expensive prison system.

Perhaps one day the nation will have a look in the mirror and decide- as Australians have, that the costs to society of liberatiarian gun laws far outweigh the benefits of its obsessions.

But I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

[cliffordu]

69. I'm glad you can see to put yourself above the rest of us, mr/mrs/ms

'sensible progressive'

I like that south park episode about the hybrid cars.

[Greyhound]

67. Every household in Switzerland has an actual assault rifle. Same thing,

they don't feel the need to slaughter one another with regularity.

It is us, not our guns.

[NutmegYankee]

24. True AK-47s are Illegal already.

True as in Fully Automatic ---> Hold trigger down and it just fires till you release or the magazine empties. This is different than semi-autos, which are legal, and fire one round for every trigger pull. You can own a True AK-47 only with a federal license, and it is very strict and difficult to get.

If the gunman had a true AK-47, he probably got in the same manner as druggies get their banned drugs. Can't ban something that's already illegal for most people.

[derby378]

25. Meanwhile, violent crime in Dallas has dropped dramatically over the past year

Murder is down at least 10%. Aggravated assault is down 20%. All without enacting any new gun bans, license requirements, etc. Maybe Miami should study our example and see what they can learn from Dallas?

[cliffordu]

29. These idiots give shooting people a bad name.

a hundred shots. They ought to be sent to prison for waste.

Give me a motivated asshole with a single six every time.


oh, yeah, I forgot.....

[malaise]

36. Saw this on local Florida news last night

and shook my head. AK47 - ah well -the NRA should be proud.

[olegramps]

47. You know what has struck me as strange?

I have watched Western films in which the tough sheriff's first action in their agreeing to take over a town that is out or control was to effect a ban on carrying weapons in town. I think that these movies appeal more to the rugged individualist type who are gun lovers. It really strikes me as being ironic that they usually identify with the sheriff who shoots a few of the villains and runs the others out of town but are fearful to the point of being paranoid of any gun restrictions.

[Vickers]

57. Sounds like the guy doesn't spend much time at the range sighting in.

[Aviation Pro]

60. Guns, actually bullets, kill people, but the economy is the fuse that causes.....

...the software, the human, to pull the trigger.

[11 Bravo]

64. Why is this not in the gun dungeon yet?

Just curious. (And I'm a gun owner.)

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. The article suggests that this was an automatic weapon.

It's already illegal.

[TWiley]

71. Guns don't kill people ........ Gun enthusiasts kill people .... people without guns

Most often, the enthusiast kills someone who does NOT have a gun.

[cliffordu]

72. Please don't equate law abiding gun owners, those "gun enthusiasts" with

criminals who kill with firearms.

Entirely different subset of people who happen to have a gun in the house.

If you cannot tell one from the other, I feel sorry for you.

[TWiley]

73. Well, I suppose many "enthusiasts" are strong 2nd ammendment supporters.

NRA says: you will get my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands.
Armed Bank Robber says: you will get my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands

Therfore, the philosophies of both groups are similar
Felony convictions appear to be statistically incidental

[cliffordu]

74. Well....

Another take, just as fucking stupid:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[TWiley]

78. well, consider who wrote that post .....

[derby378]

75. "I would have every man write what he knows and no more" - Montaigne

The average bank robber is motivated by nothing more complicated than self-preservation. The NRA members is motivated by the preservation of his culture and his way of life, among other things.

[TWiley]

77. A gun is not a tool in today's society

exactly what "culture and way of life" is the NRA member defending, and how is that different from the bank robber who actually has a use for a gun?

"I would have every man write what he knows and no more"

[derby378]

79. Says who?

A lot of us may be city or suburban folk, but there are so many people in America for whom hunting and ranching (among other professions) are very much a way of life. They need firearms, and they need the best firearms that they can afford. If "the best" means that they come with pistol grips and muzzle brakes for increased stability and shot placement, I'm not going to argue with their needs.

[TWiley]

87. ok, MAYBE a few ranchers need a gun

But, who else? Culture and way of life you say?
Now, these people actually use guns as a tool and need them to defend their way of life:

Bank Robbers
Mercinaries
Drug Smuggers
Rapists
Kidnappers
Armed Robbers
Asassins
Police killers
Gang Members

and ..... I am just getting started

[CRF450]

88. I'm buying one soon.

I like to have piece of mind that if someone breaks into my home and it can take the police more than 10 minutes to get to my house, I can have something to protect myself with.

[aikoaiko]

82. A tragedy whether it was done with a semiauto AK variant w/1 mag or a Ruger Mini 30 and 3 10 rd mags

Wouldn't y'all agree?

Do anyone really think this crime wouldn't have happened in similar manner if the criminal had a different type of gun that is not on some politician's ban list?

[benEzra]

90. 2 murders out of 14,000 demonstrates an epidemic?

The FBI monitors the % of crimes committed by firearm type. Rifles consistently account for around 3%, and not all rifles are "assault weapons."

2007 data: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_20.html

A fellow DU'er pulled the % of crimes involving rifles from the FBI UCR for 1995-2007. Rifle crime is pretty stable, and very low.

95 - 3.2%
96 - 3.4%
97 - 4.1%
98 - 4.5%
99 - 3.1%
00 - 3.1%
01 - 2.7%
02 - 3.4%
03 - 2.7%
04 - 2.9% * AWB ended here
05 - 2.9%
06 - 2.9%
07 - 3.0%

The "assault weapon menace" is BS. Rifles aren't a crime problem in the USA and never have been (and Timoney has been crusading on the "assault weapon" fraud for years, apparently to distract from his other problems).