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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:06 PM
Original message
so now when the Pentagon kills people, it really IS in my name
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 02:01 PM by G_j
the last eight years, it was done with my tax money, but now when it happens, it also happens under a president I voted for!
a rather sobering thought, this makes me even more responsible to stay involved.

do try to be mature enough to understand that one can support Obama and oppose a polcy.

For peace activists, the work is never done..
check out the article below.


/////////////////////////////////////////////////


Former Sen. George McGovern says Obama should reconsider U.S. military build-up in Afghanistan

Jan 24 2009 5:57AM


MITCHELL, S.D. (AP) President Obama has said he wants to pay more military attention to Afghanistan, but one of his key South Dakota supporters wants him to change course.

Former Sen. George McGovern of Mitchell says Obama should reconsider a U.S. military build-up in Afghanistan and remove troops and bases throughout the Middle East.

McGovern says the new president should implement a five-year "time-out" on war and increase efforts to feed children in poor countries. He says flexing military muscle only fuels hatred of America adding that he thinks the U.S. should minimize, not increase, its military presence in countries thought to produce terrorists.

His suggestions were posted this week on The Washington Post's Web site.


http://www.kxmb.com/News/323728.asp
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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Now, this is a rather stupid fucking post you've got here.
Do you suppose the war would magically end with the sanpping of fingers ..... no complications whatsovever? We are on the road to ending the Bush family wars, and they will end much faster now than if any other candidate was elected.

His first act was to close Gitmo .... this accounts for nothing?
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zorahopkins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. Gitmo Remains Open
Gitmo remains open.

Prisoners are still in prison at Gitmo.

We still continue to violate the human rights of every person imprisoned at Gitmo.

Close Gitmo -- NOW!!
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Ever heard of Patience? The process has been started which is more
than would have happened had the other guy won.
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zorahopkins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I've Heard Of Patience. Have You Ever Heard of Justice?
Yes, I have heard of patience.

But I am very impatient with any lack of Justice.

I am impatient when people are denied their basic human rights.

I am impatient when people are imprisioned unjustly.

I am impatient when my country does any of these things.

If I were a prisioner being held unjustly at Gitmo, I would have NO patience at all.

Close Gitmo -- and do it NOW!!
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I'm with you. But trying to undo 8 years of that bs is not going to happen
overnight. Justice in the US legal system doesn't happen overnight so I don't know how you would expect Gitmo to be corrected in days.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. that doesn't compute
You don't "undo" by continuing to do.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Do you really think that 8 years of Bush can be undone with one stroke
of the pen? It has been started. I understand your impatience as Gitmo should never have happened. Unfortunately it did happen and undoing it and doing it the right way will take some time.

What do we do with them? What if their home countries don't want them? What do we do with them then?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. I don't know what you are talking about
Edited on Mon Jan-26-09 03:44 PM by Two Americas
You are saying that we should not be saying "now!" as though there was some harm done by saying that. I think that "now!" is the only morally acceptable thing for any of us to be saying.

These arguments - that these things take time, that we need to do something with them, that it is complicated, that we can't just turn them loose, that they may be dangerous - are the same excuses and rationalizations that got us into this mess.

The detainees should immediately be granted their day in court, period, with all rights respected. The burden is on the authorities, not on the accused - always. People are to be presumed innocent until through due process and adherence to the law the government is able to successfully make a case against them - always, without qualification, without exception.

Any waffling, any exceptions, any hesitation, any qualifications are arguments that are morally indistinguishable from the rationales that were used by the Bush administration to detain and abuse the prisoners.

There is no wiggle room on this, and seeking wiggle room places us on the side of the torturers and law breakers in our own government, and morally compromises us.

There is no way around this, and it is disgusting and disturbing to me that so many are looking for a way around this.

Now!
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. "better than Bush" won't get it
Tell the victims of the detentions and the bombings to be patient. Why should we be patient? What does that achieve? What is the benefit of being patient?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. George McGovern just gets better and better.
Obama needs his "King" and maybe more than one.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. A brave man, McGovern piloted a B-24 in World War II.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. That's a good read, Octafish.
Thank you!
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. remarkable history
he has seemed to me to have an unshakable integrity
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. a lot of pacifists had done bomber raids:
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 05:23 PM by MisterP
Walter M. Miller, Jr., Howard Zinn, Joseph Heller, and (postwar) H. Bruce Franklin
"pushbutton"-ism can only go so far
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. Never.
I'll do my own killing, thanks, and accept the consequences were I ever to do so.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Not just reconsider, but scrap the idea of sending more troops to a lost war.
This display of "toughness" is unnecessary and a recipe for disaster.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Afghanistan, Another Untold Story
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 01:26 PM by G_j
(btw, Afghanistan is twice as big as Iraq)

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0812/S00106.htm
Dec., 5 December 2008, 10:04 am
Column: Global Research

Afghanistan, Another Untold Story


by Michael Parenti
Global Research, December 4, 2008

Author's website: www.michaelparenti.org .

Barack Obama is on record as advocating a military escalation in Afghanistan. Before sinking any deeper into that quagmire, we might do well to learn something about recent Afghan history and the role played by the United States.

Less than a month after the 11 September 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, US leaders began an all-out aerial assault upon Afghanistan, the country purportedly harboring Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda terrorist organization. More than twenty years earlier, in 1980, the United States intervened to stop a Soviet "invasion" of that country. Even some leading progressive writers, who normally take a more critical view of US policy abroad, treated the US intervention against the Soviet-supported government as "a good thing." The actual story is not such a good thing.

Some Real History:

..MORE..
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yup. We're fighting against our proxy cold warriors.
And, using the same rationale of the "bogeyman" about to get us.

Now, we're preparing the way into Pakistan for another, and bigger, disaster.

But, now war is now PC because "our guy" is authorizing the killing.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. What do you make of Medvedev allowing the US access through Russia?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j433u...

Russia ready to cooperate with US on Afghanistan
18 hours ago

MOSCOW (AP) President Dmitry Medvedev said Friday that Moscow is ready to help stabilize the situation in Afghanistan by allowing the United States and others to cross Russian territory with cargo intended for coalition forces in the war-wracked nation.

Medvedev said that Russia also is prepared to help international efforts to combat drug-trafficking and terrorism in Afghanistan.

:shrug:

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. The solution needs to be regional/international.
Medvedev also limited Russian participation to Non-military cargo.

"We are ready to work on the most acute issues, (such as) ... deliveries of nonmilitary cargo," Medvedev said. He added that cooperation with the United States must be "full-fledged and equal."

From Mikhail Gorbachev

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/23/opinion/edgorbac...

A new model must recognize the need for multilateral cooperation. In his speech, Obama acknowledged that today's threats demand "even greater cooperation and understanding between nations." I am sure that however strong the criticism and even anger over some U.S. actions has been throughout the world - in Europe, China, India, Russia, Latin America - leaders and the general public understand the importance of America's role and are ready to cooperate with it.

But is America ready? In his speech, Obama said, "The world has changed, and we must change with it." The commitment to those words must be proven by specific deeds and decisions. This will require a realistic analysis of the global situation - the kind of analysis that has been lacking in the United States for nearly two decades. America has been widely seen as almost omnipotent. But arrogance and triumphalism blinded it as a policy-maker; slogans replaced serious thinking.

The 20th century was an American century - let's make the 21st another American century. Those words, spoken by President Bill Clinton, were echoed by those who have guided American policies in recent years. But the world will not agree to play the role of an "extra" in a movie scripted by the United States. Finally, recognition of that attitude seems to be emerging in the United States.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Thanks for that link
In shaping Mideast policy, a real battle is inevitable. If anything should have become crystal clear in recent years, it's that "business as usual" only makes the Middle East more dangerous. Current U.S. policies have not been good for the region as a whole or, in particular, for Israel, a nation with which the United States has special relations.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. How many Americans know what the word "Blowback" refers to?
10%? = optimistic, huh?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. and that is pretty much a given equation
like physics, every action has a reaction.

Now what kind of reaction would feeding the poor elicit?



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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Here's hoping (and actually working for) that we will come up with some genuinely creative
Economic Solutions to Poverty!

:hi:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. Let's hope McGovern has Obama's ear.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. I hope he listens to McGovern, too.
I really like that 5 year timeout from war idea.

:hi: G_j
:hug:
DR
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
17. Sparky, it's always been in your name
regardless of who is in charge, or who you voted for
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. well Sparklet -- not really. nt
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zorahopkins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
22. War Is Not The Answer -- Really True!
War really is NOT the answer.

We should NOT be ramping up for war in Afghanistan or anywhere else.

We should not be the bully in the Middle East or anywhere else.

War is not the answer.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
23. You must be a member of the "Me Generation"
Concerned about overblown pentagon budgets and killing innocent people and all of that hippie stuff.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. cover: ....blown nt
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Fireweed247 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
28. increase efforts to feed children in poor countries.
I like it.


The war on terror is a big lie. There is no way that some 'terrorists' in a cave were able to overcome the US defense systems. How did they talk NORAD into standing down on 9/11? This whole mess is a PNAC wet dream and it could and should end right now. We have people really hurting in this country, people being kicked out of their homes...all because of the destructive Bush policies. Obama needs to listen to MLK Jr's speeches on war and poverty and what war does to the soul of a nation. I am so sick of the killing and the maiming. Enough!


"He says flexing military muscle only fuels hatred of America" WHO can argue with this? I know what Bush and his buddies were after, but what is Obama doing??!!
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-09 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. this is what we need nt
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