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Att. Jewish DUrs: What did you make of Rick Warren saying the Shema today?

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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:41 AM
Original message
Att. Jewish DUrs: What did you make of Rick Warren saying the Shema today?
Did you hear Rick Warren recite the Shema today during his speech? I can't find no one discussing this and I want to, because it upset me. He said in English, eyes uncovered, and in speech where he - the person speaking - is not Jewish is saying it in an event that inaugurates a leader - who is also not Jewish. Why did he do this? Does he know anything about how even reformed Jews view the Shema as holy? Anyone notice this? And if you did, were you upset or not?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. I noticed but reality is Warren's presence upset me
truth be told though I was not surprised... or shocked, given how the Extreme right wing Christian Right see themselves as the true Israel

Ir was something that most folks would not notice, or care.. and sadly most American Jews will not notice either.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. I dispise that asshole for a few other things, this is just icing.
To be honest, I think it was for show.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. even if for show...
to maybe wave off accusations that he is anti-Semitic... it is still disrespectful ,no?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. It is disrespectful.
I am sure he used it for many things.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
3. I can only offer
that he took what was supposed to be a non-denominational address and injected an evangelical perspective that was counter to the tradition of an inclusive benediction.

I think he was cutting and pasting in a way that was meant to be inclusive, but which was insensitive in a way characteristic of evangelical theology.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. That's a very good description
Evidently you can take Warren out of Saddleback, but you can't take Saddleback out of Warren.

Er, something like that.

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Veritas_et_Aequitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. So it just can't quit him?
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. LOL
:spray:
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. amen...
and he did not give the benediction even... but I fully agree with you in any case (as usual) :)
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Cheers
Edited on Wed Jan-21-09 01:02 AM by bleever
to you, on this most wondrous of evenings.

:hug: :toast:


(And I meant to say invocation...but he failed to invoke, hence my confusion. :) )
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. "cutting and pasting"
I didn't watch it, I was only blindsided when MSNBC played part of it during some edited clip-thing and it did seem cut and pasted together.

It was as if he phoned-in every stereotype he found during a google search for "klan+opinion+African-Americans".

I'm glad I didn't listen to the full hot tranny mess.

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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. He was trying to recite what he thought he knew
instead of acknowledging others beliefs as they are. His "prayer" was a speech, a recital. His speech was all about himself too. Big Me and little you through the saving grace of our lord and father Jesus Christ.

vhomit ....
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The empressof all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
9. I suspect Warren is ignorant of the details.
He strikes me as someone who assumes that all non Christian faiths are at their core the same-- just in different flavors. So in the spirit of ecumenicalism it would be within the realm of his reason to just patchwork a few prayers together. I don't think they teach much about the actual practice and traditions of Judaism or for that matter any other religion in Bible College. They do teach how wrong their theology is. He strikes me as a very insulated and un curious man much like our former President.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Good point
The few Fundamentalists I've known are very insulated and lack even the most basic knowledge of other faiths.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. right... because when to say Shema...
in his cutting and pasting as noted above, he overlooked rules about saying it, like for example "when" to say the Shema:

1. Morning (before sunrise)
2. Night (before bed time)
3. At the moment of death
4. Yom Kippur

And I might add, there are even rules for how to say it depending on who you are with and where you are. You must cover your eyes when you say it. There are very serious rules around this. And it should be said in Hebrew. Most importantly, it is an affirmation that is ONE GOD ONLY (so then following up with Jesus and everyone else is actually blasphemy in this context).

Just so you know, I am not a religious zealot or even religious Jew. But the Shema is something I was taught to take seriously, regardless of how observant I was or was not - and this is usually true for all Jews, even non-observant ones.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
13. Fuck Rick Warren...
...sideways...with sandpaper.
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
14. I'm no defender of Prick Warren, but it seems he was trying to include all 3 Abrahamic faiths.
The Scripture tells us Hear, oh Israel, the Lord is our God; the Lord is one. And you are the compassionate and merciful one. And you are loving to everyone you have made.

The first part, from Deuteronomy, is not only found in the Shema, but was also later quoted by Jesus in the NT gospels. And "compassionate and merciful" language is taken right out of the Quran.

So while he may be an asshat in many of his beliefs and practices, at least in this case, I think he was attempting to be "inclusive", at least in terms of religion.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. No... that is the point...
He could have used other prayers. This is not that kind of prayer. It is a completely different animal. It is believed to be holy, so much so, that it is what is put inside a mezuzza for protection. The words of Jesus regarding the Shema make sense (although he does not use the exact words) because he was a Jew. But remember, in Judaism, letters are numbers and words equations. People devote their entire lifetime studying these nuances. It is not a prayer like the standard Baruch adonoi... prayers. It is a personal commitment to the oneness of god and the exclusion of anything outside of that belief (hence, brining up Jesus in the next sentence omits this personal contract).
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Well, we already knew that Warren was an ignorant bigot.
So it's no surprise that he's not aware of the significance of this prayer to Jews. Not that I'm an expert on Jewish prayer myself, but if I was going to use one in an internationally televised speech, I'd probably consult a Rabbi about it first. And an Imam for the Muslim references, though in that case, I believe referring to Allah as "compassionate and merciful" is fairly universal. Though it's a shame that I only know that from reading alleged "Bin Laden" letters published by the media. :(
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
17. the guy is a disgusting ignorant bigot and he was the worst part of the whole thing
i really wish Obama had not invited him.

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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
18. What's funniest is that it directly contradicts his own beliefs.
Then again, he probably wasn't about to say, "Hear O' Israel, the Lord is God and the Lord is three."
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 04:33 AM
Response to Original message
21. the what?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Learn
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Yeah, that's why I asked.
Thanks.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. No prob.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 04:45 AM
Response to Original message
26. Damn...I Missed It
As was my plan...when Warren's mug showed up on the screen...it was time for a sammich. Since you posted about it and no matter what this new age Dobson says I would find it either non-sensical or offensive. I found a copy of his verbage and I'm so used to hearing the Shema in Hebrew that I had to go back to hear it again...I'm honestly not used to hearing it that much in English.

No question he was trying to show his "unity" with the Likudniks and right wing Jews...but even then I still don't see this as any real attempt to insult.

The good thing is this episode is over and hopefully so is Warren's 15 minutes. Let him go back to Sunday morning bible humping where he belongs.
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