My dad, a fundamentalist Church of Christ preacher from Texas, says....

[EmilyAnne]

that he thinks gay people should be able to get married.

He told me that he hopes that his brother (my dear uncle) can marry his partner soon and that, when that day comes, he hopes to be asked to be my uncle's best man.

Was my father always so sane?
NO WAY!
He was an asshole to my uncle when he came out 25 years ago, even FORBIDDING him from introducing his then partner to me and my brothers. Years ago, in a heated argument, my father told me that my uncle's "lifestyle is an abomination."

The thing is, I always argued back. So did my brothers. We never just shrugged our shoulders and said, "well, that's just what Dad believes, so we better respect it."

Nope. We always responded with a chorus of, "that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard" or "what an idiot". We let our dad have it. We loved our uncle and there was no way we were going to listen to our dad condemn him. Period.

So, at some point, my father had an epiphany. It was during the 2004 election when my dad decided to vote for Kerry, the first Democrat he had ever voted for.

I don't know why or how. A lot of the holy rollers I met during my youth as a preacher's daughter have probably gotten even more militantly ant-gay.

My theory is that my dad was confronted with different opinions by people who he was forced to have an ongoing relationship with.
In other words, most homophobes will change the television channel or switch the radio station or stop reading the editorials or just avoid a person who presents an opposing view point.
They insulate themselves and never evolve.
Then, there are people like Rick Warren who are humored with, "well, that's just what he believes. We better respect it."

Bull shit.

Maybe I am beating a dead horse to some DUers, but I think I am having a delayed reaction to Rick Warren's stupid mug being involved in the Inauguration. Explain to me, pretty please, why he has been given this forum.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EmilyAnne]

Do you really think they are homophobes?

My dad definitely was, saying gay people are "abominations" and other bull.

I don't think the people who are turning a blind eye to Rick Warren are on level with that.
I think they, in their hearts of hearts, would have been much happier if Barack Obama had selected a Unitarian instead.
They would have been very proud of his selection.

[Smarmie Doofus]

2. As I understand it.....

Obama thinks it's better to include people with whom one disagrees with "at the table" .

This applies to homophobes....but not to racists or antisemites.


>>>>>>Explain to me, pretty please, why he has been given this forum.>>>>>>

[KittyWampus]

5. Evangelical christians are a significant portion of the voting public who have been abused by Warren

types.

The key word here is SIGNIFICANT.

They are a sizable demographic. And one that contains some members who are amenable to change and moving Left politically.

The younger generation of evangelicals are most likely to be swayed by Obama and the Left.

In fact, for the last election some evangelicals DID move to the Left and voted for Obama.

It isn't really that hard to understand so it baffles me why so many DU'ers throw the bullshit, "why didn't Obama invite a Klan leader".

The KKK isn't a large, significant portion of the voting public and there's no KKK Snake-Oil salesmen with best sellers and a following like Warren.

[Smarmie Doofus]

10. There isn't now. There *was *at the turn of the last century.

>>>>>The KKK isn't a large, significant portion of the voting public and there's no KKK Snake-Oil salesmen with best sellers and a following like Warren.>>>>>.

Did TR invite the Grand Dragon to his inaugural?

Did McKinley?

[KittyWampus]

14. Thanks for conceding my point. As for historical precedents, there are past threads where DU'ers

posted photos of various Democratic POTUS's and Civil Rights leaders met with and/or honored abhorrent characters.

[Smarmie Doofus]

23. What point do you feel was conceded? nt

[EmilyAnne]

6. Do you think Obama believes that in having someone like Warren at the table, he will be able to

change Warren's views on homosexuality? Are we just, as a country, not there yet as far as gay rights? Its like we're in the 1940s waiting around for people to get a clue about miscegenation laws. Some day it will look really stupid.

I've been trying to research the political climate in Spain leading up to their legalization of gay marriage by reading Op/Eds and LTTEs in El Pais and other major Spanish papers.
How such a deeply Catholic country with an incredibly organized and vocal anti-gay element could so easily accept gay marriage is still beyond me.
Its not like I have stumbled upon the argument of all arguments with such uniquely brilliant points that the anti-gay movement just naturally relented. Its just that, it seems, the anti-gay movement was just ignored on this point.

Maybe our country isn't quite yet ready to ignore people like Rick Warren?

[Smarmie Doofus]

25. "Honoring" a nd engaging in a dialogue are two different things.

>>>Maybe our country isn't quite yet ready to ignore people like Rick Warren?>>>>>>

Inviting Warren to give the invocation at the inauguration is an *honor*. Sending him an email or even appearing at a forum where they exchange contradictory povs re. a hugely contentious issue is potentially "engaging in a dialogue."

[tsuki]

35. I was as appalled as you are, but looking back on it now, would

Warren have been exposed for the bigoted, misogynist, and racist person he is if he had not have been invited.

Every cloud has a silver lining, so I am told.

[KittyWampus]

3. You don't get your hypocrisy? Your father can change but none of Warren's followers or Warren

himself can change?

Or these people should be ignored and shunted to the side until they suddenly come to reason BY THEMSELVES?

Or is it the case that your father, Warren's followers and Warren himself have the greatest chance of evolving by being included and constantly worked on?

[EmilyAnne]

9. I do see your point, cryingshame. I just don't think humoring people will lead to a change.

It will only confirm their beliefs.
Then again, if someone like Warren were challenged publicly by Obama, he and his followers would immediately insulate themselves and view Obama as an enemy. I suppose there is no way to a perfect solution when dealing with irrational people. Its a real catch 22, for sure.

[KittyWampus]

12. As far as Obama goes, he doesn't just humor people. He does confront black churchgoers with

the divisive anti-gay sentiments that are all too prevalent there. For example.

And as for Warren, he is being used by Obama as a means toward reaching out to evangelical types. Warren's followers.

And Warren is using Obama.

That is how politics on any level works.

In the end, I see Obama as doing the "grown-up thing".

And sometimes being the grown-up means making decisions that make everyone unhappy now for a benefit that is only apparent down the road.

[EmilyAnne]

17. Very true. That was something that really impressed me about him during the primaries.

Thanks for reminding me about it.
I suppose many of Warren's followers were the sort to be sending out the email forwards about Barack Obama being the anti-christ.
Many are probably still harping on the birth certificate conspiracy.
Its difficult to fathom how scary Obama is to so many fundies.
Its sill really annoying to have to hold their hands.

Catch 22.

If what Obama is doing will allow the country to make a meaningful move forward, to put a final nail in the coffin of the Religious Right/ Focus on the Family people, then I am on board. I don't want to see that sort of revival again in my lifetime.

[treestar]

32. Why, they can think

Merely not fighting with them will confirm their beliefs? Not so.

In fact, sometimes fighting with them gets them to defend those beliefs even more. People have a big stake in being "right."

[hlthe2b]

4. Well, some solace perhaps from the fact that...

Warren will be confronted with different opinions by people who he WILL be forced to have an ongoing relationship with, if he plans to have any further dealings with those in the Obama administration. He'll also be forced to listen and share the stage with the immensely revered Reverend Joseph Lowery and-- probably more to the point-- Gene Robinson, the first openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church.

I don't like Warren at all and truly wish he were not going to be there. But, perhaps there is a shred of hope in the story you relate, in terms of parallels. :shrug:

[Critters2]

33. Warren and Lowry agree about marriage equality. They both oppose it. nt

[mwb970]

7. Most people evolve for the better as they age.

It's usually due to the factors you mentioned, particularly personal associations with people in "hated" groups who turn out to be respectable and likable.

Others seem to just get worse and "set in their hatin' ways" as they get older, leading to the mean-spirited, hate-everyone "Get off my lawn!" effect that we saw in Old Man McCain.

[undeterred]

8. Great post, until you made it a Warren thread.

People do change their minds if they are exposed to the truth.

DU did not choose Rick Warren to do anything.

[EmilyAnne]

11. Sorry. I think discussion is good.

[undeterred]

16. And this subject hasn't already been discussed to death.

[Bluenorthwest]

20. When there is understanding, we can stop

Old saying from the movement: silence = death. You think discussion equals death. You are wrong. Silence = Death.
An issue that really is life or death you know. Actual death. Not rhetorical death, not annoyance for the priviliged and annoyed set. Death. Go throw that word around at the funeral of a mother of three dead from AIDS she got from her hubby, who lies and smiles to please the Warrens of this world. Go say 'death' to those children. Tell them how annoyed you are at hearing the truth, perhaps the death was better than you having to deal with hearing things that bother you? How many such funerals could you attend and still be so cavalier about truth and death? I know you have never been to one, because the answer it one. Attend on and you will be changed. Forever.
Silence =Death, so think long and hard about asking for silence.

[undeterred]

21. Beating a subject to death

amongst people who are already on your side accomplishes nothing positive. Posting at DU is not activism. You want change? Get up off your rear end, get out of the house, and talk to people who are uninformed.

Privileged and annoyed? You have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to, none whatsoever.

[Not Me]

13. Everything changes when you get to know a gay person well.

It puts a face, a relationship on the boogeyman.

About nine years ago I had the pleasure of meeting Matthew Shepard's mom. She spoke a the university that I worked for. Her message was to come out. And come out to everyone you know.

[KittyWampus]

15. So would you say a major component toward progress has to do with the courageous gay people

who have come out publicly?

[EmilyAnne]

18. Which can be such a painful thing to do in certain families and communities. Not like I need to

point that out to anyone.

You're right about coming out being courageous.

[shireen]

19. your dad is a good man

Ultimately, he did what was right, thanks to the persistent, gentle and logical influence of you and your siblings.

As for Warren ... i'm at a loss. I like Obama's desire to be inclusive, but including that homophobe in the inauguration went too far.

[frogmarch]

22. I will never forgive * or his supporters,

nor will I ever accept them and be ready to "move on."

Bushco should be prosecuted for its crimes (frogmarch the lot of them!) and its die-hard supporters scorned.

[marshall]

24. Church of Christ is fairly progressive

Their meetings are pretty austere, but they have always been more open to alternative lifestyles than other churches.

Not that they don't monitor their congegation's behavior. I remember my mother having to stand up in front of the congregation and confess her sins when my psrents got divorced.

[gratuitous]

26. Part of the reason your father changed his mind . . .

And, by the way, hallelujah.

Part of the reason your father changed his mind was because of that most dangerous of all human foibles: relationship. He was in and stayed in relationship with his family members who had a good long time to work on him. When he checked into his prejudices, he found out they weren't true. And he did what reasonable and intelligent people have always done when that happens: He changed his mind. But it wouldn't have happened, as you said, without a relationship with his children, with his brother, and with other people who listened and responded to him, adding a little information from time to time.

I think the younger generation coming up can't say the same thing, but practically everyone over a certain age (30? 35?) held the same view at one time or another that your father did. And a lot of us have changed our minds. The really bad news for folks like Rick Warren is that their prejudice is dying. Not all at once, to be sure, but it's dying nevertheless. I hope I live long enough to see the errors of my generation put right by the next generation, particularly this one. We never had to pass a bunch of restrictive, discriminatory marriage laws before the last decade or so. That's because the people who haven't walked through the door of acceptance think they can "stop" the gays if they pass enough laws. It will be a great day when the first of those bigoted laws is repealed. It will be an even greater day when the last one is taken off the books.

[ThomCat]

27. Thank you very much for posting this.

People can change, like your dad. I hope more people do. :)

People seem to think that it's okay to give Warren the podium because he MIGHT change. That's being argued up-thread. But I think the point is that you don't give him the podium because he Might change. He's still a bigot. You don't reward bigots. IF he changes, then you give him the podium. An ex-bigot, someone who has reformed after the conversations can have the podium to speak to the nation, but not someone who is already still full of hate.

I don't know why that is so hard for people to understand. :(

Thank you for posting this. And thank you for bringing your father around to our side.

[hootinholler]

28. I think there's some symbolism there

Warren represents where we are, the Benediction will represent where we need to go.

But then again I'm considered looney in some circles.

-Hoot

[nichomachus]

29. If I could stretch like that

I could become a yoga teacher.

[TheWraith]

30. Because as you yourself just pointed out, you can't simply ignore people who think that way.

You have to talk to them.

[Critters2]

31. I've been pleasantly surprised by my interaction with Church of Christ clergy.

The CofC has done some real challenging of its pastors in recent years. The faculty of some of its schools, like Lincoln Christian College and Seminary here in Illinois, include advocates for women in ministry, strong voices against racism, advocates for green issues. And the CofC is officially non-hierarchical. So, local congregations can call pastors who don't toe the party line. Also, the CofC is explicitly non-creedal, so no tests of faith. Much as they may want to be fundamentalist, the non-creedal tradition makes it impossible to enforce theology. It gives them an unintentional theological "elasticity".

This differs from Warren and the SBC. The Southern Baptist Convention, of which Rick Warren and Saddleback are members, INSISTS on conformity to its creedal positions--in spite of the fact that this rankles REAL Baptists. The SBC and the CofC seem identical to those who don't know them. But the creedal aspect makes a great difference in the way they function.

In short, I'm not altogether your father had a change of heart. His faith doesn't encourage such growth, but it does allow it. The SBC fights against this kind of change, tooth and nail!!

Give your father a hug, and the deep thanks of another pastor working for justice.

[4 t 4]

34. Bless you and your

brothers for loving your uncle and wanting him to be happy. That really is what it's all about right, just wanting to be happy. You might just be the reason your father saw the light.

[Critters2]

36. I don't think you meant to respond to me.

This was a good post. The OP should read it.

[4 t 4]

37. Sorry, I thought it was obvious I was just responding in general

to The Original Poster Sorry again I think most people got it!

[Shardik]

38. Well, good on your Dad!

He evolved.