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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 03:46 PM
Original message
Harper's Magazine: 'Prosecute Bush'
Edited on Tue Dec-30-08 03:47 PM by garybeck

Justice after Bush:
Prosecuting an outlaw administration
Harper's Magazine December 2008
By Scott Horton

I. The Crimes
Americans may wish to avoid what is necessary. We may believe that concerns about presidential lawbreaking are naive. That all presidents commit crimes. We may pretend that George W. Bush and his senior officers could not have committed crimes significantly worse than those of their predecessors. We may fear what it would mean to acknowledge such crimes, much less to punish them. But avoiding this task, simply moving on, is not possible.

This administration did more than commit crimes. It waged war against the law itself. It transformed the Justice Department into a vehicle for voter suppression, and it also summarily dismissed the U.S. attorneys who attempted to investigate its wrongdoing. It issued wartime contracts to substandard vendors with inside connections, and it also defunded efforts to police their performance. It spied on church groups and political protesters, and it also introduced a sweeping surveillance program that was so clearly illegal that virtually the entire senior echelon of the Justice Department threatened to (but did not in fact) tender their resignations over it. It waged an illegal and disastrous war, and it did so by falsely representing to Congress and to the American public nearly every piece of intelligence it had on Iraq. And through it all, as if to underscore its contempt for any authority but its own, the administration issued more than a hundred carefully crafted signing statements that raised pervasive doubt about whether the president would even accede to bills that he himself had signed into law.

No prior administration has been so systematically or so brazenly lawless. Yet it is no simple matter to prosecute a former president or his senior officers. There is no precedent for such a prosecution, and even if there was, the very breadth and audacity of the administrations activities would make the process so complex as to defy systems of justice far less fragmented than our own. But that only means choices must be made. Indeed, in weighing the enormity of the administrations transgressions against the realistic prospect of justice, it is possible to determine not only the crime that calls most clearly for prosecution but also the crime that is most likely to be successfully prosecuted. In both cases, that crime is torture.

There can be no doubt that torture is illegal. There is no wartime exception for torture, nor is there an exception for prisoners or enemy combatants, nor is there an exception for enhanced methods. The authors of the Constitution forbade cruel and unusual punishment, the details of that prohibition were made explicit in the Geneva Conventions (No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever), and that definition has in turn become subject to U.S. enforcement through the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the U.S. Criminal Code, and several acts of Congress.1

rest...
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/12/0082303
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. yep
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. The swift and unilateral destruction of the Geneva Conventions
should be what lands that whole stinking crew in prison for the rest of their rotten and useless lives.

Whether or not Congress has the will to do this is moot.

We won't regain any respect in the world until and unless they do.
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. I like the fact that articles like this are starting to appear
You'll never hear about it on cable or network news, but if enough people read things like this article, they can't ignore it forever.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. People with conscience will speak and be recorded for the historical record. If Obama does nothing
his presidency will be worthless in my eyes.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Won't Obama be ratifying the totality of what junior and his cabal did if his administration does
nothing? Did not all who could have stopped the illegal actions by junior's cabal in its tracks, but did nothing except support, aid and abet, acquiesce, or ignore effectively ratify the totality of this cabal's illegal actions. :P
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. You are exactly right and Obama will also assume the powers Bush has usurped from us
If Obama does nothing he gains from Bush's illegal assumption of powers never intended for the Presidency.
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tclambert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
39. Yes. Knowing of a crime yet doing nothing about it makes you an accomplice after the fact.
Obama has to wrestle with his conscience on that one. It shouldn't be hard to figure out right from wrong. But political expedience may trip him up.

Every prosecutor who could file charges has an ethical responsibility to do so.

I expect someone overseas to file charges. And that means Bush and Cheney may have to be careful when traveling. They may not be free to visit Europe, for instance.

Perhaps an enterprising civil attorney might sue them on behalf of the American people for defamation of character, the nation's character. Nah, that's too much of a circus stunt. That means someone will probably try it.
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SoDesuKa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
57. Don't Hold Your Breath
Don't hold your breath waiting for Obama to push for the indictment of the Bush administration criminals. He may not even get the chance, because Bush will issue a sweeping pardon for himself and everyone who worked for him.
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edc Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. Most likely Bush will pardon himself even though the very notion
of a man having the authority to pardon himself is so completely down the rabbit hole and so far out the other side as to be in an alternate universe.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. The idea that criminals can pardon themselves is a little far-fetched,even for this strain of fascit
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machI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. Kicked and Recommended
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bluedeminredstate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. K&R
Absolutely spot on.



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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. I wish I had faith that Obama's administration will do more than turn a blind eye to what Bush did
But, sadly, I absolutely do not. In his continuing effort to make nice with the assholes of the right, Obama will roll over and play dead and say let bygones be begones. My fearless prediction.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
37. Actually, you have described the Democratic Party in general...
"Make nice" and "let bygones be bygones" has been in large measure the reason the Democratic Party has failed to gain and keep power over the last 30 years. They run from any notion of a belief system, philosophy and cogent policy, favoring instead the lifeless jargon of "win-win," "gathering the stakeholders," "moving forward ," and "consensus building." This has left the American public wondering what Democrats stand for -- a query the GOP is only too happy to answer.

The Democratic Party has been cowed. They are still cowed, only they have affixed the over-worked term "pragmatism" to shine a sick yellow light on their "beliefs." Obama's biggest task is to break through the hunkered down Democratic posture and challenge the far right. Democrats will fight Obama even if he attempts programs which would pass muster during LBJ. Lieberman (who wasn't disciplined by his own party) assessed his own in-party opposition correctly when he gaged its lack of "fortitude."
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. The Only Win Win is for the third party that grabs the power from a divided America
Divide and Conquer by maintaining the illusion of a two party system, when the system itself is so corrupted that either party accedes to the whims of the Power Brokers.

America is so asleep that the media and politicians can hypnotise them into thinking that Torture for the good of America is OK, but not for the Evil ones. Destroying the Labor Unions and destroying the economic output of America is Globalization, and printing massive amounts of funny fiat money to bail out illusory assets is the right thing to do.

Denigrating Labor and Production and lumping it into the same category as farm labor, while prosletyzing the massive wealth that can me "Made" in the Casino called the Stock Market.

Centralizing the media outlets into the hands of the few does nicely as well.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
47. We'll be told it's "for the good of the country"
Imagine how things might have been different if FDR had allowed Prescott Bush to be tried for treason rather than allowing his Nazi associations and participation in a plot to overthrow FDR to be buried. The whole BFEE might have just faded away if it hadn't been "for the good of the country".

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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. K&R
Edited on Tue Dec-30-08 04:52 PM by Hubert Flottz
If we can lock people up for a bag of pot, we should be able to put people who plunder, murder and torture in jail too.

Edit to add...

"The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced," Frank Zappa

It's kind of like, "Bill Clinton was not above the law," but the neoCons are...

Bill Clinton was guilty of telling a lie about oral sex, the neoCons lied us into an elective war, where Americans and Iraqis are still dying to this day.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. I snort with derision every time I hear some politician talking about
restoring America's image or how America's image has been tarnished under Bush...always concerned about the image. An image can be created and has nothing to do with substance.

Worried about America's image? Try prosecuting the war criminal executive.

America can't erase the war crimes...but a country that protects its war criminals isn't exactly repairing its image...real or otherwise.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-30-08 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
11. Don't hold your breath.
In a spirit of "Post Partisanship" (Bi-partisanship on steroids), Obama will apply the "Centrist" Clinton protocols, and sweep it all under the rug.

There may be some superficial "Truth Commissions" which will merely apply a good coat of Whitewash, but none of the War Criminals will even get their hand slapped.

Here is what it will sound like:

"After extensive investigations, we have determined that everyone is responsible, and no one is responsible. It is time to move on in a spirit of healing".

If anything is going to be accomplished, it will have to be done privately by the citizens:

I will donate $500 to ANY organization that will place a Bounty on Bush/Cheney to be paid to anyone who provides concrete evidence that leads to their indictment or arrest.

A small, transparent trust located in a neutral country like Switzerland could administer the fund. If the BOUNTY is promoted internationally, it would quickly grow to Mega-Millions.

The fund would also be tasked with running full page Wanted For War Crimes ads in major Global newspapers every 3 months until the Bounty is awarded or depleted.

I believe that such a fund would be wildly popular worldwide, and provide the administrators an opportunity to make a little money.
I have neither the resources or skills to institute such a fund, but like I said above, I am willing to donate $500. I also believe that there are at least a million more worldwide (extreme minimum) who would also be willing to donate....that adds up to some serious money.

Wanted
for
WAR CRIMES


A $500 Million Dollar Reward will be paid to any individual, organization, or country that provides concrete information leading to the arrest, or the issuance of an Internal Arrest Warrant for War Crimes committed by George Bush, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, or Donald Rumsfeld.


It is clear that the Opposition Party (Democratic Party) and the US Justice Department will do NOTHING to hold the criminals accountable.
A private organization representing Citizens of the World would have better results.


Even if Bush/Cheney are never arrested, a Mega-Million Dollar International Bounty would certainly keep them looking over their shoulders, curtail retirement travel plans, AND serve as a warning to future "Unitary Executives".

It would also put a nice ribbon around the Bush Legacy.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I like your idea. n/t
:dem:

-Laelth
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Excellent idea
I think a ritual curse may be in order, too, as in the song Nell Flaherty's Drake:

May his spade never dig, may his sow never pig
May each hair in his wig be well trashed with the flail
My his door never latch, may his roof have no thatch
May his turkeys not hatch, may the rats eat his meal
May every old fairy from Cork to Dun Laoghaire
Dip him snug and airy in river or lake
That the eel and the trout they may dine on the snout
Of the monster that murdered Nell Flaherty's drake

May his pig never grunt, may his cat never hunt
May a ghost ever haunt him the dead of the night
May his hens never lay, may his horse never neigh
May his coat fly away like an old paper kite
That the flies and the fleas may the wretch ever tease
May the piercin' March breeze make him shiver and shake
May a lump of the stick raise the bumps fast and quick
On the monster that murdered Nell Flaherty's drake
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. Even if all it did was keep Jeb out of power and all of them off the corporate media
We've had all we can take of those giggling murderers for at least several generations.
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PADemD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. Didn't you forget a few names?
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Not just a few....a bunch.
I chose to keep it limited to the top "celebrities" that most Global Citizens would recognize, but certainly many more are guilty.
I would extend guilt to many Democrats who supported and funded the Occupation, but I think it is more important to decapitate the top dogs....as an Object Lesson.
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Swede Atlanta Donating Member (906 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
36. I''ll match that....
I would gladly contribute $500.00 to see these criminals tried and convicted for their many, many crimes against our nation, our men and women in uniform, our Constitution, the innocent civilians in Iraze and the rest of the world. I would love to see Georgie, Rummy, Dickie, Condi, Wolfie, etc. all in side by side cells in solitary confinement 23 hours a day, 7 days a week for the rest of their lives. No death penalty because that is the easy way out. Let them suffer each and every day.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
41. I will donate $500 also. Anyone going to get this going?
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
50. I'm a little unclear on something
We HAVE concrete evidence and information, hence the article. Hence DU. Why would anyone offer even a dollar for something we all know is true?

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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
12. k&r for a worthy cause. n/t
:dem:

-Laelth
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
15. kick
and to all those who are working under the radar to get this criminal administration their just dues. All we need is one Attorney General to start the ball rolling remember Vincent Bugliosi (I hope he continues with his quest to get these SOB's)
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
17. Worse than a son of Nixon.
They are the spawn of Nazis. And Authoritarians. And the Mafia. And Big Oil. And Terror Inc. And Wall Street. And
War Inc. And Secret Government.

These traitors, warmongers, mass-murderers, perverted liars, thieves, fraudsters and who-knows-what sociopathic else, think themselves not only above the law -- but the law itself.

Scott Horton has written the indictment for Bush and his "administration."

The precedent for all of these tribunals was the Nuremberg trials, convened at the end of World War II. Under U.S. leadership, the Allies prosecuted not only leaders of the Nazi Party but also industrialists, doctors, and prison commandants. The Americans and Soviets also wanted to prosecute the people who had created the legal framework for the Nazi regime, but British and French leaders objected. Consequently, the United States, acting on its own, convened a separate Nuremberg tribunal to try lawyers, judges, and legal policymakers. In doing so, it established the principle that policymakers who overrode the mandatory prohibitions of international law against harming prisoners in wartime could be prosecuted as war criminals, no matter how many internal memos they had written to the contrary.

Thank you very much for the heads-up, garybeck! Happy New Year to You and Yours!
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I call them "Hitler's Revenge".
Happy New Year to you Octafish!
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. They built the CIA.
From before the war and after.

Thank you for knowing, glitch! Peace, my Friend!
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
19. This is the best article I have read in the last 8 years. Please read it all
It isn't too long, it isn't too complex, as Goldielocks once said, "just right".
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
20. I would like to see Bush prosecuted but once started where does it end?
We have a history of prosecuting middle management and the surrogates of crime. This time do we start at the top and from there where do we go?
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
21. Look at this...
Special Prosecutor for Bush War Crimes

http://www.democrats.com/special-prosecutor-for-bush-wa...
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
22. I just found this in my email sounds like a good idea to me.
Edited on Wed Dec-31-08 12:28 PM by gordianot
It comes from peaceteam.net


on edit I do not care who is the prosecutor just as long as someone fills the position

We all understand the historical urgency and imperative of holding Bush and Cheney accountable for their grave crimes against our own country and all of humanity.

And we haven't got alot of time to move on the particular action in this alert so please go to the Obama change site TODAY (voting closes 12/31 at midnight), where there is already a question calling for a special prosecutor, and

1. Sign in at http://change.gov/openforquestions

2. Search for "Fitzgerald"

3. This will display several similar questions, so look carefully for "Bob Fertik" (who started the question)

4. Look right for the checkbox, mouseover it so it goes from white to dark, then click to cast your vote

And let's all vote for the SAME question (don't start another new one) and demonstrate to our new incoming administration that letting the crimes of the past slide without retribution is NOT an option.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Done.
Amen.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Done. Thanks for the link.
Recc and kick.

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rambler_american Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. Done n/t
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tclambert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. Thanks for the link.
Now, if only Obama will demonstrate the cojones to DO something. Someone must champion law over wealth and power. If not, we have lost something truly precious.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
23. "Open criminality is a cancer on democracy."
Afuckingmen!!
:grr:
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
27. K & R for both the vital message of this OP, as well as all the excellent comments.
eom
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Sandrine for you Donating Member (635 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
29. Great !
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
30. kick
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12string Donating Member (443 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
32. Please Prosecute
These thugs need to be held accountable.If not all citizens of the U.S. will forever live with the shame of aiding and abetting war crimes and will suffer accordingly.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
33. Give him some of that Texan "justice" he doled out as gubner. nt
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
34. Cruel and Unusual Punishment
Since when did "enhanced interrogation" become Usual?
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
40. If one reads the entire articke, one will find a lengthy and practical
Edited on Wed Dec-31-08 07:13 PM by MasonJar
analysis and suggestion as to future actions against the torturers. Horton has listed a frightfully long agenda of Bushista crimes, but chooses torture as the one most easy to prosecute. It is a studied assessment but leaves so much untouched as far as Bush crimes,due to the almost unending magnitude of their number. What a shame! We get a commission to study and recommend on one of hundreds of crimes and then only recommend some punishment or pardon. Do NOT get me wrong; Horton has done a superb job of analyzing what is possibly the only means that any retribution might be likely. But so many abuses and so little done about any of it. I am sick. As to the commission, which Obama seems to favor, (two years at least and a diluting no doubt)the Senate already has its own study. Send it to te prosecutors.
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tclambert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. I agree. We should focus on torture and get them jalied for it.
They've publicly confessed to it, practically boasted of it. The paper trail should be easy to produce in court. Eyewitnesses--victims--are readily available. Public outrage is a sure thing. The crime is legally indefensible. Once the facts are laid out, anyone trying to defend them politically will find themselves in the uncomfortable position of defending torture.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. Take solace ...
It seems to me that what we see in the article is the exploration of just one vein of a very rich mother lode, the same approach to giving definition to a path forward could have - and should be - applied to the many other categories of crime. In other words he just gave us an example of how to approach the torture issue, it is up to us or others to do the same with the many other issues that deserve equal consideration. I'd put domestic spying, the omnipresent electronic surveillance that we are all apparently subject to continuously at the very top of the list.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
44. Kicked but didnt get to it fast enough to rec
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
46. Prosecute is right, and there exists no time restraints on murder.
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wundermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-31-08 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
49. Good Bye, Mr. Boosh


Bye bye...

Bye now...

Bye...

...

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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
51. Kick!
This one's worth saving.
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
52. K&R
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
53. Wasn't there a woman running for a seat as.....
maybe atty general somewhere who said she'd appoint Bugliosi if she won election? I forget the details. I guess she lost then? :shrug:
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90-percent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #53
60. SHE LOST
From Vermont or New Hampshire. She was a libertarian or green party candidate.

-90% jimmy
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. thanks. nt
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90-percent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-02-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #60
69. Suprisingly
Edited on Fri Jan-02-09 10:15 AM by 90-percent
Suprisingly the $25 I paypalled her about 2 days before the election failed to get her the win.

So I bought a copy of "The Prosecution of GWB for Murder" and gave it to a lawyer family friend instead.

(I tried to read Vinnie's book on the Supremes 2000 Election Decision and finally confirmed why I'd make a bad lawyer. The goddamned book is too hard for me to read!)

-90% Jimmy
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
54. kick!
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Zaidinit Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
55. I didn't read all that but I like the title
Someone should cc it to all members of Congress.
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frog92969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
56. Kick
Torture is a no brainer.

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Broadslidin Donating Member (949 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
58. Pop a couple 'govt sanctioned' morphine pills, wash 'em down with alcohol, you'll feel good George.
:nuke: :beer: :nuke:
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santamargarita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
59. This must happen immediately!
Great read...
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MsLeopard Donating Member (717 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
61. To the Hague with them! K&R
The only way to restore our reputation around the world is to prosecute these war criminals in the world court. Perhaps then we could gain some of the respect we had before the Bush Crime Family drug our good name through the mud.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
62. Late K&R ---
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
63. If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner,

Impeachment criteria: James Madison, from the Virginia ratification convention. "If the President be connected in any suspicious manner with any person and there is grounds to believe that he will shelter him, he may be impeached."



From Judiciary In '74-
"
If The President Be Connected In Any
Suspicious Manner With Any Person..."
The following is from a report written and released by
the Judiciary Committee in 1974 in the aftermath of the Watergate
crisis.

In the (Constitutional) convention George Mason argued that the
President might use his pardoning power to "pardon crimes which were advised
by himself" or, before indictment or conviction, "to stop inquiry and
prevent detection." James Madison responded:

If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any
person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of
Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty...

....................

Madison went on to say contrary to his position in the Philadelphia
convention, that the President could be suspended when suspected, and his
powers would devolve on the Vice President, who could likewise be
suspended until impeached and convicted, if he were also suspected.

http://www.watergate.info/impeachment/74-07-25_barbara-...
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
65. YES!
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LiberalLovinLug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-01-09 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
68. Prosecuting for Torture only is wrongheaded
I think it is a mistake to only zero in on torture and dismiss other crimes.

There are a couple of reasons. The prosecutors know that they will need a majority of citizens to support such a momentous undertaking. Those citizens have been watching shows like Fox's 24 now for most of Bush's term. To many Americans, TV fantasy is reality in a sense that - it is fiction but it COULD happen the way it is presented if the cards fell that way. What seems to not be brought up in any of the discussions on this board is the acclimatization factor to the collective attitudes towards torture.

There will always be the informed socially aware citizens (like on this board) who know how to separate entertainment from reality. But there are also many others, mostly Republicans and Independents, who buy into the myth that all we need is more Jack Bauers to send in whenever there is another threat from al qaeda. They dismiss any evidence (including the whopper of them all, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi's false confessions about Iraq when he was sent to Egypt for torture, giving Dubya yet another 'reason' for war) that torture only gets them to say what you want them to say. Nonetheless, I think a healthy portion of US citizens now believe that torture against suspected terrorists WORKS, or at least is worth a shot. They casually ignore the fact that most torture is not on proven terrorists, but any and all people (like drivers) associated with a terrorist organization, or even such flimsy procurement as to be handed over by war lords for bounty.

Another reason is that by not prosecuting at least 3 or 4 of their many crimes at the same time, their will be a implied belief out there that there was no truth to any other charges that are listed in the article above, that they were just liberal anti-bush slanders. And if he gets off by some technicality or other, he will be exonerated of all other charges at least in perception.

So by going ahead with the prosecution, Bush will have the support from his loyal 20% asshats as well as those 24 (and countless other movies) watchers willing to believe that after 9/11 torture, though morally distasteful, is a tool that they are now willing to allow the intelligence agencies to employ.

I think the Bush cabal, if they could choose the one charge against them in a court proceeding, would welcome a trial on torture. Their defense of "unusually dire circumstances called for unusually dire methods" or going into "the dark zone" as Darth Cheney says, would and does go over with a large segment of the population. That if 'they' can do it then we must be able to as well to have an even playing field. The Hollywood ticking time bomb scenario would be trotted out. The fact that this is strictly a TV and movie phenomenon which has never happened in real life has nothing to do with it in many minds. And with FAUX news and Reich Wing radio on their side drumming up these scenes, a torture trial, even if WON, would be seen by many Americans as frivolous and even wrong and a blow to national security efforts.

If Bushco. are tried on at least 3 or 4 crimes, even though there are probably more like 10 major ones committed, the crime of torture is amplified by association with the massive breadth of ALL the criminal activity done. By separating and ignoring other crimes, it sets up an all or nothing scenario where any prosecutor is up against a Hollywood mythologized public along with the Reich Wing media machine for as long as a trial was going on.

Good luck with that.
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