On the Withdrawal of Pardons: It Has Been Done Before - The Dupay Case, 1869

[Bolo Boffin]

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9F06E6DF1F3CEF34BC4F53DFB5668382679FDE

That's a New York Times article from 1869 (I hope), in which Grant moved heaven and earth to stop a courier. The courier had two pardons issued by Andrew Johnson for the Dupay brothers. They were convicted of defrauding the IRS. Grant got the deeds back and canceled them.

So there is precedent. You aren't pardoned until you get your mitts around the paperwork.

[Jackpine Radical]

1. The precedent, then, was one President retracting the pardons

issued by his predecessor. I had no notion that such a thing would be legal. That Dupuy case sounds like it must have been a strange one indeed. And the case is entirely unlike this one of Bush retracting his own pardon.

[Bolo Boffin]

6. Well, if one President can stop the pardons of another one...

A President can stop his own. Delivery is one of the crucial parts of obtaining a pardon.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bOM9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA478&lpg=PA478&dq=%22In+re+Du+Puy%22&source=bl&ots=6Vu6Q3yGmp&sig=PWErMHxbXGjWjxz4t42ELD5B9So#PPA478,M1

[Posteritatis]

9. One president revoking another's pardon frightens me a lot more

Either form of recovation, ah, bothers me to say the least, but the (and god let this stay hypothetical) idea of, say, a President Palin nullifying an outgoing Obama's pardons and locking however many people back up again is one of those thoughts that's just going to fester for awhile.

[Bolo Boffin]

11. Oh, there was some to-do about it then.

But the judge in the lawsuit one of the Dupuy brothers brought said delivery was a key element. What Obama needs to do is have no January 19th pardons -- or make sure the pardons are executed and delivered by special courier before the swearing in.

[backscatter712]

12. Hmmm. And I was hoping Obama could revoke Scooter Libby's commutation...

Yeah, it would open up an ugly can of worms though.

[Ian David]

2. Oooh! You give me hope! n/t

[Ian David]

3. Dear god that must be obscure...

Your search - "dupay brothers" and "Presidential pardon" - did not match any documents.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS269US269&q=%22dupay+brothers%22+and+%22Presidential+pardon%22&btnG=Search


Your search - "Dupay brothers" and president johnson - did not match any documents.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS269US269&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=%22Dupay+brothers%22+and+president+johnson&spell=1

[Ian David]

4. New York Times may have misspelled their name. Google "Dupuy"

#
THE PRESIDENTS PARDON.; Important Decision of Judge Blatchford in ...
... yesterday, announced his decision in the matter of the petition of MOSES DUPUY for ... O Marel 3, about to vacate office, President grated him A pardon, ...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70B15FA3B5E1A7493C1A8178DD85F4D8684F9 - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
#
The Dupuy Case--Canceling Pardons.
... behalf of MOSES DUPUY to test the question whether the pardon of DUPUY signed by President JOHNSON on the last day of his official life was a valid one , ...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F10D1FF734551A7493C2A8178CD85F4D8684F9 -


Results 11 - 20 of about 1,230 for Moses Dupuy and president johnson pardon. (0.09 seconds)
Search Results

1.
LSU Libraries -- The Civil War
Typewritten copy of a diary kept by Hélène Dupuy during the Civil War. ...... Collection also includes a pardon (1865) by President Andrew Johnson for ... Liddell, Moses. Family Papers, 1813-1919 (bulk 1838-1870).6.5 linear ft., ...
www.lib.lsu.edu/special/guides/civwar.html - 534k - Cached - Similar pages
2.
RWG2 "Wynkoop Genealogy in the United States of America", the ...
... is sorry for what he said, and begs plaintiff's pardon. .... Her husband's name was Moses Du Puy, written also as Du Puite and Du Puis. ...... General Washington was in favor of styling the President, ...... John Payne, Episcopal Bishop in Africa, and Mary Catholena, wife of Edward Johnson, of Baltimore. ...
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wynkoop/webdocs/rwg2.htm - 341k - Cached - Similar pages
3.
Free Articles from June 1869 Part 1 - Site Map - The New York Times
POLITICAL.; Movement of Ex-President Johnson. Jubal A. Early on Virginia Politics. ..... ALLEGED EXTORTION.; A Presidential Pardon and What it Cost--John N. ...... Important Decision of Judge Blatchford in the Case of Moses Dupuy--The ...
http://spiderbites.nytimes.com/free_1869/articles_1869_06_00000.html - Similar pages



Results 11 - 20 of about 1,230 for Moses Dupuy and president johnson pardon. (0.09 seconds)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS269US269&q=Moses+Dupuy+and+president+johnson+pardon&start=10&sa=N

[Bolo Boffin]

5. No, it's my typo in the title.

CRAP!

It should be Dupuy, or Du Puy.

From a Google Books link on the pardons:

http://books.google.com/books?id=bOM9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA478&lpg=PA478&dq=%22In+re+Du+Puy%22&source=bl&ots=6Vu6Q3yGmp&sig=PWErMHxbXGjWjxz4t42ELD5B9So#PPA478,M1

[pipoman]

7. Well,

there were no fax machines, mail trucks, air mail, FedEx or email then. Messages were sent via courier and could take weeks or months to deliver. Sorry to burst your bubble...

[Bolo Boffin]

10. Sorry to burst my bubble?

Have you burst a bubble of mine?

Pardons are still things written on a piece of paper that have to be in the possession of the pardonee. That's Bush's window of opportunity. Stinks, yes. But there is a precedent.

[On the Road]

8. That is Astounding!

I am constantly amazed reading about that era of American history.

[Ian David]

13. So, it looks like Obama can only stop Bush's pardons if he gets them in his hands first...

... before the pardonee has them?

HOWEVER...

I believe I heard on Thom Hartman that Presidential Pardons are only for FEDERAL offenses, and that individual states can prosecute for STATE offenses.