Time after time after time, "the extreme left" has been proven correct and the "pragmatic centrists"

[Fumesucker]

Incorrect.

And yet it is still "the extreme left" who get told to sit down and STFU every single time.

Just watch this Rick Warren thing, "the extreme left" will be proven correct once more and the "pragmatic centrists" will once again blow a smoking hole in their foot.

Putting Warren on the national stage doesn't deligitimize his positions, it legitimizes and honors them.

[fasttense]

1. Obama is making a very bad mistake. n/t

[polichick]

2. Absolutely.

[LittleApple81]

3. I am not extreme left and I agree with you. I don't see what advantage the USA can get from

having this rightwing, antigay, antiprogressive Christian evangelist person giving the prayer (a prayer should not be part of anybody's inauguration, by the way). Why insult all the progressive people that helped in your campaign? I am not gay either, but I am totally revolted by this choice.

[depakid]

5. Apparently creationists who think a woman's right to choose is a holocaust

are still in high demand in the states....

[arcadian]

24. Wait til Obama attends the National Prayer Breakfast.

Thursday, February 5th.

[depakid]

56. I'm more interested in how he implements his faith based programs

Enabling and legitimizing fundamentalists is one thing- doling out federal money to their churches to promote their dysfunctional agendas is quite another.

[Dragonfli]

4. Agreed - Even more Disturbing is the way the "pragmatic center" keeps moving further right

Even as the "extreme left" is used to describe notions of liberty and equality that used to be considered axiomatic in our nation.

It appears that our founding founders are raving leftist just as much as I am. Good thing there are still pragmatic centrists similar to king George around to guide us.

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. Yep, we can thank the RW for that. And look how many DUers have

fallen for their crap ranting at us on the left, who in many many other countries would be right or even center-right. We're _not_ necessarily all that "out there". We've just been demonized so much that people buy that line without even thinking about it.

[Dragonfli]

39. What seems strange to me

Is how posters like wyldwolf, who would have been correctly classified as a conservative republican during the reagan years, posts here as if he feels he has the authority of a moderator. He also feels that anyone to the left of that "centrist" conservatism is hopelessly fringe, even tho such "hopelessly fringe left wing ideas" would be considered centrist democratic during that same era.

When I first was attacked by him I thought he was a freeper, what I have come to learn since is that he is more the majority around here. I am growing rather concerned about my party these days. For the most part with the exception (quickly fading) of some social issues, the Democratic party I joined in my youth no longer exists. The DLC represents the entire party now, the DLC does not even resemble the party I joined those many years ago (and I am only middle aged).

In the cold hard light of day, this country now has two parties - republican and fascist.

We need reform within the party, or a viable third party that would champion the people and their liberties over the wealthy/corporations, I suppose what you would call a liberal or progressive party in more than name only.

Of course saying such things as just stated is more likely to gain me a pizza than anything Wolfie McDlC would ever post. :(

piss poor spelling edit

[Greyhound]

46. As any fifth column does, it has destroyed the opposition from the inside.

"Ignore what they say, watch what they do".

[Dragonfli]

52. Yes - but once Identified, how does one defeat the fifth column? /nt

[Greyhound]

57. Unity. Standing against their advance. Doing what we know is right,

even (maybe especially) when it hurts. Calling them on their endless stream of BS, even though it gets so tiresome.

But mainly unity.
:fistbump:

[Dragonfli]

61. Sounds like a long hard road towards restoration,

luckily by trade I restore old homes, they are beautiful sturdy old ladies worth the battle.
I am very stubborn and somewhat quixotic by nature, sounds right up my ally.

I'm down with it.

Solidarity to restore the grandest old lady I know then!

:fistbump:

[lostnotforgotten]

6. Progressives Are The Group That Has Fought For All The THings The Centrists Now Take For Granted

eom

[L0oniX]

21. We get discarded like a used condom after every election.

[KG]

27. !!!

:thumbsup:

[emanymton]

7. Liberal. You Dang Right I Am. Extreme Left? Where Else ...

.

would any one want to be?

Whip me. Beat me. Take me bowling. But whatever you do, remember Liberals have been correct and proven right throughout history.

.

[Greyhound]

58. Every time. Reply kick. n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

8. The most striking vindication of pragmatic centrism was November 4th.

In a great many cases, the policies that would most benefit the country if put into effect are those advocated by the (reasonably) far left (economics being the notable exception).

However, the strategy that will it most benefit America for the Democrats to pursue is a somewhat more centrist one, because mostly-right Democrats in government do more good than completely-right Democrats in opposition.

The argument against e.g. instituting a national health service, repealing the 2nd ammendment, slashing defence spending, decriminalising marijuana, recognising gay marriage at a federal level etc is *not* that these things would not benefit America if done, it's that trying to do them would (or, at any rate, may - in some of those cases the calculation isn't clear, and they may be worth trying) result in the Republicans being elected, undoing them and doing more harm besides.

[Fumesucker]

17. That remains to be seen...

Obama has instituted no policies yet, we really have no idea what he's going to do, we do know that he has all but shut out those who have been correct on just about everything and opened his arms to those who have been wrong about just about everything.

[BeFree]

19. Yep

And some of us go about politics in such a way as to alienate others. What we end up with then,
is opposing sides that can't see any other alternative because they have been pushed into a corner.

Since there are many in politics who thrive at taking advantage of the alienation (alien nations?)
nothing gets done except for those who take advantage of the chaos. Like bushco in Iraq.

[Odin2005]

9. Had the purists had their wish and Kucinich been the nominee we would of been crushed at the polls.

Good thing saner heads prevailed.

The purists would rather lose elections and thus let the Pukes continue to fuck us over, apparently.

[alarimer]

10. While we continue to be sold down the river by "pragmatists".

Just watch and wait. I am sorry I voted at all in this election.

[Odin2005]

14. Nobody is selling anyone down the river.

This isn't a single party state, this is a democracy. You can never get everything that you want because politicians can't please all people all the time.

[Fumesucker]

18. I'll withhold my judgement on whether anyone is getting sold down the river..

At the moment I suspect the gays and the DFHs are going to be sold but I'm waiting to see what actually happens.

I'm in fairly late middle age, one of the few positive things about getting older is that you gain perspective. I'm rapidly getting a sense of deja' moo.. Which is the feeling that you have heard this bull before.

[tom_paine]

70. Is it really a democracy. because if it can even be classified as one, it is in an advanced state

of ossification and fossilization.

I need only give one example to 100% prove my point, because it's a big one.

The last eight years have seen thelargest number of felonious perversions and abuses of power, felonious frauds, felonious thefts, felonious multiple-perjuries in the rare cases felons like Gonzales were forced to testify under oath, and felonious anti-Constitutionality.

During all this time, as we all knew, the evidence from these literally dozens of felonies was always laying around. I used to say three ADAs, a clerk, and a $5,000 budget could produce conviction-evidence.

But one thing the last eight years have taught us is that the law is NOTHING if no one has the guts to enforce it.

My point, in the face of the absolutely most felonious eight years EVER in American History, where our entire government was turned into an instrument of corruption and criminality, NOT ONE aspect of our Systems of Check and Balances worked.

NOT ONE. Go ahead and name one, OTHER than the fact that we were permtted, yes permitted, to put Obama on the Imperial Throne. Yes, we "convicted" Bushler...by sending him home to a happy, long life with his ill-gotten loot, his work done and future American Tyrannies almost 100% ensured UNLESS Obama suddenly starts behaving after inauguration like the man he was supposed to be before election (which he still may turn out to be - we must wait and see, but early signs are NOT good)

After 8 years of uninterupted and 100% successful felonious criminality...we sent Bush home. Is that how a Healthy Democracy polices itself?

Yeah, this is a democracy. How 'bout that system of checks and balances? How 'bout that Free Press :rofl: ? How 'bout that "equal branch" of the Legilstaure? :puke:

What do the health of those institutions tell us about the strength and health of American Democracy?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[tomp]

20. that's an assumption that can never be proved.

and it's rather disingenuous of you to make it. kind of like saying things would be different if they were different.

it's the centrists who are the purists. corporatist purists. two-party=one party purists.

the left wants change. obama just says he wants change, because it's such a wonderfully ambiguous buzzword, but what he really wants is to defend the status quo.

of course, that's my belief. only time will tell.

[arcadian]

25. Every Dem Presidential candidate runs on "hope & change"

Shoot any opposition party runs on change, when the party in power has fucked things up so horribly. I'm just surprised that so many haven't figured that out. It's all campaign bullshit.

[High Plains]

23. Yeah, much better to be fucked over by our "friends."

[Odin2005]

37. Nobody is fucking anyone here. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. Stupid non sequitur. Being pissed about Warren doesn't mean you wanted person X as the nominee. -nt

[Greyhound]

48. The very definition of a false premise.

Ask anyone that was actually at the Chicago debate who won it.

Compare that to people that watched it in TV.

Remember the ABC photos of the debate?

You have not one shred of evidence to support your claim.

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. Hey, I'm a pragmatic left of center.

Careful with broadbrushing.

[Odin2005]

15. To the purists anyone who isn't a purist is a "DLC whore."

[depakid]

16. Surely you recognize the irony in that statement....

[Greyhound]

49. Care to share your definition of "pragmatic left of center"? n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

66. It's easier to define what I'm not.

I'm not ideological. Meaning, I will fight for the separation of church and state and will point out the content of billboards outside a church if the CONTENT suggests the church is pushing political ideas that is contrary to its IRS class; but, wouldn't waste my time being a PC police for a word like "Pray" as in "I pray the president will do so and so," especially if the person tells me that they use it in the same way that someone would say, "plea," nor will it stop me from praying.

Some of the other examples may be anachronistic and would probably create a violent response and take more time than I have to work through. We'll just say, I'm a social pragmatist, which is to say, a tough-love liberal.

[leftofthedial]

12. this choice is incomprehensible

and is an absurd fuckup.

But then naming supply-side monetarist corporate champions to all the key economic posts wasn't brilliant either.

And the corporate/prison school guy might be a terrific YMCA basketball player, but I don't want his ilk anywhere near my kid's education.

I thought Rahm was a bad pick, but I've forgotten all about him.

[mike_c]

22. I'd rec this post for the subject line alone....

:yourock:

[Hydra]

26. Proof positive that progress in any form is undesirable by the people in charge

And why should it be? They couldn't casually break the law if we could do anything about it.

[Individualist]

28. K&R

[bvar22]

29. Centrism:

"Centrism" is a Dogmatic Ideology that demands PURITY while condemning Purity in others.

What would you expect from someone who is proud to claim that they are 1/2 Republican?

CENTRISM !....because its EASY.
You don't have TO STAND for ANYTHING and get to insult those who do!



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[KG]

31. !

"CENTRISM !....because its EASY.
You don't have TO STAND for ANYTHING and get to insult those who do!'

quote of the year! :thumbsup:

[kenfrequed]

36. too right

I really want to see the 'Centrist platform.' What is it? What does it mean?

[EFerrari]

43. Yes.

:applause:

[Hannah Bell]

53. CENTRISM !....because its EASY. You don't have TO STAND for ANYTHING and get to insult those who do.

:>)

so true.

[tom_paine]

30. I try to hew to the Left-Center myself, but the reality of what you say is undeniable

in all but a few places. We will likely have to disagree on those 10-20% of issues, so best not tro bring them up as they aren't germane to my general agreement with your sentiment.

The one caveat I will give, playing Devil's Advocate, if you will, is that for the first time we are not 50 times smarter and more conscious than the Emperor. He is one hell of a strategist, and maybe he sees things we don't see. So, I am willing to forego outrage on all this pre-inaugural stuff (though I do support LGBT DUers and agree that they have every right to be upset) and wait to see Obama govern for awhile before I get genuinely upset.

Sadly, it is looking like it might be more of the same old, but even Obama/Clinton flavor is better than the tyrannical Bush flavor, if you know what I mean. And there is still a chance, however lessening, that Obama once in office will be more "FDR" and more importantly will do much to repair the system of checks and balances.

If he doesn't, then we're just marking time until Bush Flavored Hardcore Tyranny makes a comeback and picks up as if it was never gone...

[PerpetuallyDazed]

32. Um, I do believe the "pragmatic centrist" won that last Presidential election...

What does this say about the people who voted him in, exactly?

Did you really think Obama was a liberal? :shrug:

[Romulox]

33. And the 4 elections before that one, too. nt

[Fumesucker]

38. Of course I didn't think Obama was a liberal

I paid attention to his actions, not his rhetoric.

And what it says about the people that voted him in is that they had a Hobson's choice.

[EFerrari]

42. No, we had two choices.

:shrug:

[Greyhound]

51. Better question; How many voted for Obama compared to how many voted against McSame? n/t

[kenfrequed]

35. Yeah

And the irony is that whenever we criticize anything WE are accused of seeking ideological purity or have any number of allusions to the nature of our critique (circular firing squad etc).

Seriously, how many times do we have to be right before people will listen?

[fascisthunter]

40. there is no pragmatism, just capitulation to corporate greed

and plenty of people who benefit financially from that form of "ideology". Their movement away from populism (DEMOCRATIC) to the "right" is what is extreme and they know it.

[Kitty Herder]

41. K&R

[gravity]

44. The pragmatists never had a chance to govern

Their efforts were always thwarted by the republicans and Bush.

Obama is going to show you how a pragmatic government should operate.

[Fumesucker]

50. LOL.. That's what I'm afraid of..

I want to know where someone stands and I don't think total pragmatists have any moral compass at all.

The ends do not justify the means and I think the means in this particular case are horrid even if the ends are noble (and since I do not know what the ends are then I have no way of knowing if they are noble or not).

[gravity]

55. I'm afraid of the opposite

I like politicians who will change their positions based on the facts, instead of following a rigid policy

[Fumesucker]

65. The *facts* show that the drug war is an insane waste of money, resources and lives..

Wanna bet that Obama will face those facts and end the drug war?

[kenfrequed]

67. The people that claim centrist-pragmatism

Were the damned DLC. They had a good number of the Clinton years as their own and most progressive agenda floundered. Don't you honestly think that the progressives should have SOME bloody voice in the new administration that would never have occurred without us?

And since the Reagan revolution and the conservative movement has failed and their policies have proven to be absurd cartoonish nonsense that have also failed, should we not move towards a more reasonable, dare I say progressive vision?

A true pragmatist is a compromiser because they have no actual ideals or ideology, there is only some semblance of a desire for positive consequences and whatever they are willing to sell. And once one advocates for the benefit of the 'free market' or vomits forth a Thomas Friedman quotation I began to check to assure for the presence of my wallet.

It is the progressives that have never been given a fair chance to govern. Typically we are shown our hats and the door sometime after election day, unless we get really lucky and get a Wellstone in office. Of course these days people that would have spit on everything Wellstone did and stood for now rub themselves agaisnt his tombstone to establish some shred of progressive credibility.

Most of us Kucinich supporters went over to Obama over Hillary because the perception was that Obama was a hell of a lot more progressive. I hope that impression doesnt turn out to be mistaken. I hope that we were not merely given a choice between two DLC approved candidates.

[ColbertWatcher]

45. Your last sentence (or something like it) should be added to the pledge. n/t

[HCE SuiGeneris]

47. The "extreme left"...

a negatively positioned, imaginary, moonbat-crazy segment of the population alluded to by neocon a-holes and corporate media whores to scare people into inaction.

The "extreme left" -- in reality, 100 million people that can discern the real right from wrong. Like you, Fumesucker, I am more than sick and tired of the false labeling.

[paulk]

54. I don't see this debate as having anything to do with left vs center

I do agree with your last sentence, though.

[tbyg52]

59. Ain't that the truth?

This pick is just plain nuts.

[tritsofme]

60. Its easier to sit on the sidelines sucking your thumb and crying

Than it is the govern.

I'll stick with the pragmatism of PE Obama over the whines of the far left any day.

[Dragonfli]

62. We are the last to sit by the sidelines - had your generalization been true it would be PE McCain

Easy to forget once we have been USED I suppose.

[Greyhound]

63. How typical of your ilk. Hurl invective and demean until we drag your stupid ass forward

and then you try to take credit.

[Fumesucker]

64. Pragmatic centrists voted for the Iraq invasion and to deregulate the financial industry..

How are those policies working out for you?

Pragmatic centrists support the drug war.

Do you like that too?

Pragmatic centrists voted for the PATRIOT act, both times.

Another policy to love, eh?


The far left opposed and opposes all those things, which is why I said the far left has been correct.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

69. Yes, you and your "pragmatic leaders" like Pelosi and Reid and the Nelsons...

have really "led". Thank the gawds for the those "leaders". :puke:

[SarahB]

68. Yes. Majority view does not equate with a just or moral view.

I believe in standing up for what is right even if it isn't "easy". I'd like to see more people have the strength to do the same thing.