A tale of two cars - Honda and Buick

[Stinky The Clown]

We have more cars than we need, really, but the two in question here are our 96 Honda Accord EX and our 98 Buick Regal LS.

Both cost (relatively) the same. A bit more for the Buick because it has a bit more bling (leather, sunroof, heated seats, etc.)

Both have been treated similarly and both have been driven similarly. Both have between 110,000 and 120,000 miles.

Both get regular oil changes every 3-4,000 mils - less than half their respective manufacturer's suggested schedule.

Repair costs for both have been similar.

Maintenance costs have been higher for the Honda.

The Buick is a nicer riding car with far more creature comforts. The Honda is better in the city, but the Buick isn't bad. The Buick is far better on long trips.

The Honda has been mostly used for commuting, with about 70% of the miles being on the highway. The Buick has been coast to coast, and has climbed Mt. Washington **and** Pike's Peak. It has been over Vail Pass twice and drove the summer road to Aspen.

The rear driver's side door panel is floppy, with two plastic clips having broken. The Honda uses metal clips for the same job. The Honda's electric door locks do a "click-click-click-click" thing every time you lock the car. They work ..... usually. A friend has a one year newer Honda and her door locks do the same damned thing. $200 to get some new 'module' froma Honda dealer. The Buick has needed two window winders replaced. The motors were okay; the stupid cables were shot. The cost for both (we put them in ourselves) was just over $300.

The Honda is on its third set of tires. The Buick's OEM tires went 92,000. We're on the second set now. The bigger, wider Buick tires were cheaper than the Honda tires.

The Buick used to get 24 to 26 mpg. Now it gets 19. The Honda gets about 24 and always has. The Buick engine is a very smooth, very powerful, VERY reliable GM corporate V6. The Honda is a pre-VTech 4 that is noisy and always has been; it makes reasonable power but is no ground shaker.

The Honda (was it 90K?) service that called for the new timing belt cost over $1400. The Buick had no such service requirement. The Buick developed an oil leak above the exhaust manifold. A gasket and $40 fixed that.

I would buy another Honda in a heartbeat.

I would buy another Buick in a heartbeat.

Overall, I rate the Buick above the Honda.

[Tatiana]

1. K&R Outstanding post. n/t

[TheCowsCameHome]

2. Same story for me - Two Buicks, One Honda

I would buy either name again.

The Honda is an Odyssey, which serves a more specific purpose, while the Buicks are indeed more filled with creature comforts. (The supercharged Buick easily beats the other two in gas mileage)

Honda dealer service was more expensive until I found an independent shop owned by a former Honda service person.

[bullwinkle428]

3. Excellent post - certainly much more credible than the countless posts

stating "all (fill in the blank) cars are totally perfect and all (fill in the opposite blank) are complete pieces of shit"!

One thing to keep in mind for the 90K (now 105K, I think) service on the Honda - I'm guessing you went to the dealership for that service. I'm fortunate enough to have an independent guy that opened his own shop, and did all of the necessary and crucial things for under $600. My car is up to 183K miles, so I'll have to think about that service again within the next year...

[IndianaJones]

4. I've had more trouble with foreign crap than the American cars I have owned. nt.

[DonEBrook]

8. So how much 'foreign crap' have you owned?

...

[IndianaJones]

10. mazda, a subaru for a few months. foreign crap. nt.

[DonEBrook]

16. I'm very happy with my Toyotas and my Mazda.

I guess you'll have to buy my share of Detroit crap.
:shrug:

[madinmaryland]

5. I owned a 90 accord, and the timing belt went at 70K. Only problem I had with it, until it

got stolen, trashed, and left in Newark, NJ.

[taught_me_patience]

6. "The Honda (was it 90K?) service that called for the new timing belt cost over $1400."

Already know you're bullshitting. A timing belt (and water pump) job is about $500. I should know because I just got one on my Honda. Almost all cars that are front wheel drive and I4 motors require a timing belt change at that time.

Buick Regal is one of the nicest cars GM built, though, IMHO.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. Oh, so I'm bullshitting cuz you paid less?

I'll start with a perfunctory "fuck you".

That's what the service cost at an independent shop. It included the water pump (only an asshole or a thief would not replace it when the engine is down that far). It also included other stuff which I don't recall right now, but most of it was, in fact, for the big service.

I'll close with a reiteration of the perfunctory "fuck you".

[taught_me_patience]

18. Generally, when you make a comparison argument

you want to be conservative and over-exaggerate claims against the comparee. The problem is that whether you got ripped off for $1400 or $500... it has no bearing to the argument you were trying to make. However, the dubious claim served to nullify your argument in my mind.

Hell... I agree with you. I like Buick Regal and consider it a better can the a Honda Accord.

[ItNerd4life]

7. From a Manufacturing Best Practices standpoint

Buick in the 80's really turned their whole production process and supply chain upside down. They produced cars with fewer defects per car than any other manufacturer.
That production/quality mentality survived through the 90's. (It may even still survive today, haven't followed it recently)

I remember wondering why GM didn't use this model on the rest of it's cars. And take it further and use the 'continuous improvement process' on the rest of it's business and how it conducted business.
Continuous improvement can be applied in every department within a business, it's sad that many companies don't create the right culture to puruse it.

[rbixby]

11. I think people blame brands instead of the cars themselves

I owned a 1993 Ford Escort wagon from about 1995 until 2007, 200k+ miles on it and the engine ran like a champ, never had any major problems with it, it never left me stranded, didn't burn oil, the only problem I had is that since they're so low to the ground, rocks and things that get kicked up by other vehicles had a tendency to chip the windshield, but aside from that and a new clutch every 80,000 miles or so, it ran like a top.
In 2007, I bought a 1995 Ford Econoline conversion van (yeah, not the most green car or efficient car, but I'm so in love with it that I just buy the carbon offsets and keep on driving). When I bought it, it had 180,000 miles on it, and I've driven it another 60k since then and never had any real problems with it, aside from the fact that its old and parts start wearing out. Its always driven great, never broken down on the road (I've never even had a flat tire in the thing!). So I always wonder about people who complain about specific brands of cars, because I see old cars of just about every make and model on the roads still. I will, however, qualify that by saying I'm not buying a yugo, no matter how cheap it might be.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. You're right .... I have the most experience with Fords ......

....... my son had an 80s-something Escort that died deader'n'shit at under 100K. He then bought an 83 T-Bird (the very same car *we* had sold to a neighbor several years before, when it had about 50K on it) with 130K on it. It ran well over 200K and was going strong when he totaled it in a snowy skid and abrupt stop on a bridge abutment.

Escort - bad ..... T-Bird - good.

We had an 86 Sable and an 87 Taurus wagon. Essentially the same cars. The Sable went 140K when we sold it. The Taurus had its engine replaced under warranty at less than 30K and was never the same. We were thrilled to sell it below blue book with less than 75K on it.

Sable - good ....... Taurus - bad.




Ya never know.

[rbixby]

15. I think one of the big problems that I've seen with cars

Is that the consistency isn't always that great. I don't know if its the materials or the people putting them together or someone skimping on the quality checks or what, but so far I've had good luck with my cars mostly.

[smoogatz]

13. I had a '95 Explorer Sport that I loved

despite its hobby-horse ride (nausea inducing in the backseat, seriously) and tendency to flip on tight curves, until the 4wd went out. I spent over $1500 trying to get it fixed, with no luck. The vehicle was useless to me without the 4wd capability and I ended up donating it to a local charity. The Sabaru Forester that replaced it is noisy and much less comfortable for me (I'm 6'2" and 200 lbs), but so far at around 50k all the major systems except the battery (had to replace the OEM battery at 30k) and the passenger-side airbag (the light's on; we haven't fixed it) have functioned perfectly. The only real problem so far has been that the car seems to be jinxed: it's been involved in three minor accidents so far, none of which have been our fault.

[TheCowsCameHome]

14. Maintainence play a big role.

Some people buy new vehicles and think that's where it ends.

Example: I have a neighbor that owns a beautiful 2002 Toyota Avalon and has (by her own admission) never had the car serviced or even opened the hood. When something breaks it gets repaired, otherwise nothing until the next problem. When that car gives up the ghost prematurely she'll complain about what a piece of junk it was.

Preventive maintainence plays a huge part in a car's overall reliability.

[rbixby]

17. Agreed

If you don't take care of your car and don't do the regular maintenance, you'll definitely end up hating the thing. I do have to admit though, that it took me a long time to get around to having all the maintenance on my front end done (the combination of replacing the tie rods, ball joints, and steering gear scared my wallet and it went into hiding), but if you take care of things before they break, you'll always be happier with your car (and seriously, get those transmissions flushed when it says, its no fun putting a new one in a car).

[Rambis]

19. My Buik

the C fell off the front:)
Nice ride but the fuel injector chip went bad twice!
400 bucks to replace it and no warranty. Buick guy..."I have replaced hundreds and hundreds of these"
Me- "wouldn't that be a recall then?"
Buick guy.. "nope"

I replaced it and drove it down the block to the Nissan dealer and bought an Altima which has 165,000 on it and I have done nothing to that car. I love driving a car for free for 10 years!

[LisaM]

20. Excellent post. Interesting about the tires.

My SO's company rents cars. When they rented new Hondas, they found out that Honda puts the cheapest tires they can on the cars.

Years ago I had a car that was partly built by GM, partly by Toyota. Everything that broke on it (clutch, tail light got knicked, etc.) said Toyota on it!

[Kalyke]

21. A tale of two cars - a Ford and a BMW

The Ford is a Mustang. 6 cylinder straight shift.

The BMW is a 6 cylinder automatic.

The Mustang, with a bigger engine, gets better gas mileage.

The BMW is in the shop every three months.

The Ford never is.

The end. :)

[Blackhatjack]

22. The most reliable, best constructed car I ever owned was a GM Chev 1975 Monte Carlo...

I ordered it from the factory and owned it for 10 years.

I changed the tires once, the oil regularly, and replaced brake pads when needed. That was it. It never failed to crank. It never stranded me. It had steel beams in the doors and stuck to the road in curves. It had plenty of power, and was fun to drive.

The one drawback ... it got 10-12 MPG. That was why I purchased a new Oldsmobile Cutlass in 1986, which was not anywhere close to the 1975 Monte Carlo in reliability or quality.

I have regretted selling the Monte Carlo hundreds of times. The repair bills I skipped more than made up for the lower gas mileage.

[sweetpotato]

24. My favorite car was a 1972 superbeetle

Manual transmission, nothing automatic, nothing computerized. AM radio only. It had heat, but no air conditioning and I live in the south.

I don't recall anything ever going wrong with that car. My older brother had it from 1972 until 1978 when it was passed on to me. I drove it through college. I don't think I have to brag about the gas mileage.

I'd love to have that car back. I bet its still running.

[cabluedem]

23. Buick gas milage............

have you had a tune up or dx done on the Buick? Going down 6 MPG could be lots of things but that's quite a drop. Lots of auto parts stores will run a scan tool on it for free.

[JCMach1]

34. My Buick Century Station Wagon (1989) would get 22-24

regularly... It was still going over 250K and damn well I might add.

The last 50k or so the transmission became quirky, but regularly application of special lubricant and it was just fine.

[cabluedem]

46. I wasnt doubting the Buick mpg just the drop in mileage....

going from 24-26 then dropping to 19 mpg means something went wrong. Could be at least 20 things off the top of my head but 6 mpg means its a major problem.

[LSK]

25. 1994 GMC Jimmy purchased in 1998 with 43k miles

Replaced the tires after a year, had Uniroyals that went flat a few times.

At 68K miles, had to replace the plugs and wires after it wouldn't start on a cold January morning.

Once every few years some valve would get stuck causing the engine to want to die. Usually happened a few times then would be fine for months or years after. Never really fixed it.

Drove it cross country twice, did some off-roading in Colorado, I moved to my home with it, one load at a time, hauled countless engines and parts for my brother in law, helped moved my cousin, moved some couches for a friend once.

Only serious problem is it would get rusty and we replaced a fender.

Never left me stranded. Averaged about 15-16 mpg.

Traded it in on a new Jeep Patriot in 2007 with 93k miles on it.

[catzies]

26. Where was your Honda built? Does your car's VIN begin with a "1" or with a "J?"

I've owned nothing but Hondas for almost 25 years. 5 Accords and a Civic.

My Japanese-built Hondas had no quality or service issues. Ever.

My '98 American-built Accord had nothing but problems from very early on. Electrical mostly, followed by fit & finish, and worst of all, drivetrain. The tranny crapped out before 90K miles.

I had a Civic for about 2 years - Canadian-built. Was built very poorly or so I thought until I got my '98 American Accord.

So my 2008 Accord is a Japanese-built one and I was very specific about getting a J car, and the dealer knew exactly what I wanted and what I meant when I said I would only buy a J car.

[Stinky The Clown]

28. I am almost certain it is a US build ........

..... My wife is out with the car right now and won't be back until tonight.

I have no clue about the VIN, but someplace/somehow when we bought it we knew it was a US car. Ohio, as I recall.

My DIL has a CRV (2002? 2003?). These, we are told, are the only Hondas sold around here that are still made in Japan.

BTW, I recently bought a new(ish) car (Maxima). I looked at a 2008 used Accord coupe (which I really liked). It has this black contact paper on the door pillar that was starting to peel. My brother has an 05 coupe. I asked him if his contact paper was coming off. He said it was, so he peeled it back and left it at the underlying chrome. That just seems cheesy.

[EOTE]

27. The GM 3.8 V6 (231 CID) is one of the best engines ever made.

That would be the engine in your Regal. I had the very same engine in my Olds 88. It's existed in some form or another since the late 50s. They've tweaked and improved that engine countless times. By the late 90s, it was damn near perfect. Great torque throughout pretty much the entire power band. Very quiet, very smooth and it got great fuel economy. I always wondered why the automotive press lavished so much praise upon the 3 liter V6s made by Toyota and Honda. They were decent engines for sure, loaded with technology. However, I'd take the tried and true GM 231 over either of them any day. The 231 had better low end torque, better fuel economy (when you consider it would get the same fuel economy in a much heavier LeSabre that the lighter Accords and Camry's would get) all in a decades old package.

In the 2000s, that engine was replaced by GM's new high feature V6. It's a very nice engine too, and is making a very nice amount of power, especially in the direct injection version. But get this, this new high tech OHC engine actually gets worse fuel economy than the 50 year old OHV engine it replaces. GM sure knows how to make OHV engines. I think they should stick with them a while longer. No need fixing something that ain't broke.

[Stinky The Clown]

31. OHV ..... that answers your question about the lack of good press ......

..... old pushrod engines ain't sexy.

They're as reliable as concrete. But unsexy.

In my view, it may be the best passenger car motor ever built. All the good traits in a cheap, uncomplicated package. Who could ask for more? :shrug:

I have a new(ish) Maxima that has more horsepower and is way faster than my Buick. I love the power (hate the torque steer!). That engine is a beast. It is also very complicated when compared to the Buick. Nice. But complicated. Like the GM motor, it has been around a while and is nicely refined (too bad the rest of the drive train is out of balance with it).

I can't sell the Buick. Too many good miles left in it.

[EOTE]

36. Tell me that the LSx series V8s ain't sexy :)

I agree with you that the fact that it used old technology was the reason it wasn't valued as highly as Japanese V6s. In my opinion, there are 6 things that you want in an engine and anything else is pretty much meaningless. These things are:

1)Power (torque and horsepower)
2)Smoothness (applying that torque in a consistent manner)
3)Weight (excess weight effects the driving dynamics of a car poorly)
4)Fuel economy (obviously)
5)Good NVH levels (noise vibration and harshness)
6)Reliability

If an engine has a good combination of those attributes, it's a good engine. The 231 certainly had all those qualities. One quality of an engine that in my opinion adds absolutely nothing of value is "specific output". Specific output is the ratio of the horsepower the engine produces to the engine's displacement. Japanese V6s typically have a greater specific output than the domestic V6s they compete against. An example of this would be to compare the V6s in the Accord and Camry to your Buick's V6. All 3 of the engines make around 200hp, but the GM is a 3.8 liter engine while the Accord and Camry's V6 are both 3.0 liter engines. Now, I hear specific output being touted all the time as if it's something that engineers should really strive for. However, if increasing the specific output of an engine doesn't add to any of those 6 qualities I listed above, what's the point? In fact, I've found that by increasing the specific output of an engine (by maintaining the same power with less displacement), you're typically making the engine less smooth by making the powerband less flat and more tilted towards high RPMs, often times NVH suffers, and reliability can suffer because the engine has to spend more time in higher rev ranges. I understand there are people who lust over high redlines and I certainly wouldn't argue with a Ferrari fan that Ferrari doesn't make fantastic engines, but Chevrolet has proven that you can make a terrific modern day sports car based around OHV engines.

[Stinky The Clown]

38. I'll take a Corvette over most any other supercar

It doesn't have the cache of a Ferrari. But it is every bit as capable. For way, way, waaaaay less. In fact, I would argue that a Corvette is a bona fide bargain by almost any measure of that genre of car.

As to your point about specific output ..... it is pretty much true across the board that a high specific output motor is a more highly stressed motor with means a less (long term) reliable motor.

As I said, I love the power of my Maxima, but I felt better about the Buick's motor.

[EOTE]

41. And the ZR-1 is a true supercar.

I'd say even more capable than just about any Ferrari, including the Enzo. And even at a bit more than 100k, it's still a screaming bargain. I believe the ZR-1 has the current production car record for the Nurburgring. Meaning that it surpasses the Ferrari Enzo, the Porsche Carrera GT, the Bugatti Veyro, the Porsche 911 Turbo and many other exotics in the world's most demanding race track. For me, a 'base' Vette would be plenty enough. I guess going to 60 in just 4.2 seconds would have to suffice.

[Fumesucker]

47. My daughter trounced a 4.6 Mustang GT with an Acura 3.2 a few months ago..

Kid in a loud Mustang GT pulled up next to my 28 year old, mother of three daughter and was revving his engine a few months ago while she was alone in her 2002 3.2 Acura.. My daughter is a bit of a hell raiser so she jumped on the gas away from the redlight, the poor kid in the Mustang tried to catch up but lost it when he had to change gears..

When they got to the next light my daughter looked at the kid, put her thumbs in her ears and wiggled her fingers, the kid wouldn't look.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I guess I should mention that my daughter rode crotch rockets with her husband (they had one each) when he was a Marine so she is a very competent driver, this wasn't your average soccer mom doing something beyond her capabilities.

[diane in sf]

29. I drove my 84 Toyota Tercel for 21 years 200k, 22, 37mpg (originally 25, 40)

When I bought it I looked at a bunch of small American cars, they were underpowered and badly finished. I'm now driving a used RAV4 which is better in most ways than the Tercel except for its mileage, 18,28. I'm now saving for my multi-fuel, plug-in hybrid. We'll see who offers one first.

[Ikonoklast]

30. Have your catalytic converter checked on the Buick

If it hasn't been replaced already, your mileage may have fallen off because your converter is getting plugged up and your exhaust back pressure is high.

Might help improve things.

[Stinky The Clown]

33. Good point ......

.... I shudder to think what that might cost!

[Ikonoklast]

35. I needed an exhaust, cat back, on my Suburban, or so I thought

Had my guy check out the entire system as the computer was throwing a check engine code, thought it was the oxygen sensor. Mileage was off by about 10%, but I thought, well, the old bus does have 211,000 miles on her.

Well, the code was the MAP sensor and the cause was one converter being 90% blocked, and the other 70% blocked.

Cost less than $600.00, installed, two converters, muffler, exhaust pipe.

I was pleasantly surprised as to how cheap I got off for that fix, and the fuel mileage has gone up accordingly.

[gollygee]

32. We have a Toyota and a Chevy that we're quite happy with

I have no complaints about either. Both have been reliable. We've also owned several pretty reliable Fords.

[blue neen]

37. We just bought a 2008 Buick Lucerne.

Oh my. Do I ever love that car! :)

This is a GM household. We have the Lucerne, a 2004 Buick Rendezvous; son has a 2003 Chevy Impala and a classic 1987 Monte Carlo LS in beautiful shape; husband drives a 2008 Chevy Impala company car.

We traded a 2002 Chevy Monte Carlo SS in on the Lucerne...we had it for 7 years and never had a bit of trouble with it.

[Stinky The Clown]

39. I confess to being neither brand nor country loyal WRT cars

I like cars. I've had "appliance" cars (the Taurus wagon :yawn: ) I've had sexy cars (a Jaguar E-Type roadster) I've had junk cars (a Fiat 850 Spyder). I've had (still have) pure fun cars (Austin Healey <bug eye> Sprite) I've had silly cars (Gremlin) and muscle cars (AMC Javelin) and compact cars (1957 and 1964 VW Beetles) and all manner of car in between.

I have no particular axe to grind or credit to crow. I've had good and bad cars from everywhere.

[blue neen]

45. We have just found over the years, that the parts for GM are little less expensive.

My husband and son replace brakes and rotors and other basic maintenance work. My husband is an auto insurance estimator and finds that the GM parts are also easier to find.

My boss has a Ford F-150 that he swears by. I have to say, he doesn't take good care of the poor thing, and it just keeps running--very dependable.

[NNN0LHI]

42. I have never owned one but my in-laws do

One of the nicest cars I have ever rode in.

Don

[blue neen]

44. I agree.

It makes me feel like driving just for the fun of it...you know, like you did when you first got your license!

I wish I knew how to operate all of the features, though. I'll actually have to sit and read through my manual! :)

On edit: It also has a ton of safety features that make me feel a little bit more secure on the road. Our insurance rates actually went down when we purchased the Lucerne.

[GaYellowDawg]

40. I drove a Camry all the way to 267,000 miles.

I was sloppy about oil changes, but the car always kept running. It went through 4 sets of spark plug wires in the last 6 years, though, and I finally sold it when I found out that both front axle boots and the oil pan gasket were shot. I'd just inherited a very low mileage Honda Civic, so I let it go. The Civic has a lot less power (I did like the Camry's V6) and gets much better mileage in town but about the same on the highway. It also has a clunky transmission. But I have to say that I LOVE the rack and pinion steering. Oh well. I plan on getting a couple of years out of it and then I'd planned on buying a 2007 Corolla (I've rented one and the car felt like it was made for me). However, given the praise that a lot of people have heaped on domestic cars, I'm going to do a lot of test driving.

Our family had an Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser station wagon that was a great car. It was sold at 120,000 miles. We also had a Cutlass that was a piece of crap. After the Vista Cruiser, my mom got a Camry and we've been a Toyota family since. I drove a 1979 Corolla from 1987 to 1991 (up to 187,000 miles), drove a 1987 Tercel from then until 1998 (194,000 miles), and then the Camry.

Toyotas have been great cars for our family. I don't feel guilty about driving imports because if you're making a purchase as big as a car, you have to be as happy with it as you can be. I've just liked the way Toyotas feel and drive for a long time. I will say that I would have saved for another couple of years for something like an EV-1 had GM had the sense to keep making them.

[Lifetimedem]

43. I had a 98 Explorer

That I loved. It was fun to drive and got 19 mph in the city and 22 over the road.

I wish I had kept that baby.

All I did was the things a diligent car owner does..oil, filters , hoses , rotate tires etc.

Other than the speed control... never a problem

[seabeyond]

48. thurs i bought a MKS lincoln. good to hear your story. i have tended to american. i have had NO

problem with the chevy cameros, pontiac grand prix or chevy cavalier i owned. didnt like saturn i recently owned.

milliuem i owned was probably most troubled car. it was also used.

i have confidence in american made