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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:23 PM
Original message
When do I get a "Union" ? Or for that matter any of us that slave to keep your world running...
Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 05:30 PM by MazeRat7
Since everyone is all about the "workers" and keeping their jobs, I honestly want to know why our chosen profession does not have a union that advocates for us. Why are we forced to bargain for a wage, benefits, options, and duration of employment ? Why can we be laid off if "sales" are low or the VC fails to provide the next round of funding ? Or for that matter, any reason at all. Is our work not as important to America as say an auto-worker or a teamster or pick-your-group? Gezzz after all we do keep the lights on, keep traffic flowing, keep the banks running, keep e-commerce viable, and even keep most sites you visit daily on the internet functional - why don't we have a union? Does anybody really care ?

Alas, we are just lowly software designers and developers, but hey... we do produce stuff. Stuff you use every day from the microwave, to the TV, to the computer, to your car, to DU.

So I guess the question is simply this...

If unions are good for workers, then should not every profession have a union ? If not, then it seems they are more about special interest of a particular profession rather than the workers themselves.

Just an honest question...


Peace,
MZr7


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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Unions have to be organized.
No one and no law can stop a well organized
union.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Because the software industry
Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 05:26 PM by Codeine
has been chock-full of libertarians and preachers of the Bootstrap Mythology since Day 1. Never has any group spent so much time denigrating both Labor and labor as the white-collar software engineer.

As you sow. . .
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. It's all that science fiction they consume
There's something about sci-fi that creates a libertarian mindset.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. Funny, I've been reading SF since I was seven years old..
That's 51 years now, and I'm about as liberal as you can get.

I have a strong libertarian streak but I'm also a strong supporter of social justice.

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JJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
100. R.A.H. fan?
he warped my young impressionable mind.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
52. Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future for mankind was a socialist utopia
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Donnachaidh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
87. what?
What a load of horseshit. Talk about a WRONG stereotype. :eyes:
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
208. Just read some Harlan Ellison
Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 03:45 PM by junofeb
Or PK Dick. And read about their lives. Ellison marched with the the rest of the civil rights crowd in AL. Dick was pursued by the FBI in the 60's as a Berkeley subversive.

Their voices are much more an influence in science fiction than Hubbard or Heinlein.

A Bit of PK Dick from Scanner Darkly to illustrate my point about his comapssion:

One time before he got solely into undercover work he had taken a deposition from a pair of upper-class well-off, straights whose furniture had been ripped off during their absence, evidently by junkies; in those days such people still lived in areas where roving rip-off bands stole what they could, leaving little. Professional bands, with walkie-talkies in the hands of spotters who watched a couple miles down the street for the marks' return. He remembered the man and his wife saying, "People who would burglarize your house and take your color TV are the same kind of criminals who slaughter animals or vandalize priceless works of art." No, Bob Arctor had explained, pausing in writing down their deposition, what makes you believe that? Addicts, in his experience anyhow, rarely hurt animals. He had witnessed junkies feeding and caring for injured animals over long periods of time, where straights probably would have had the animals "put to sleep," a straight-type term if there ever was one -- and also an old Syndicate term as well, for murder. Once he had assisted two totally spaced-out heads in the sad ordeal of unscrewing a cat which had impaled herself within a broken window. The heads, hardly able to see or understand anything any more, had over almost an entire hour deftly and patiently worked the cat loose until she was free, bleeding a little, all of them, heads and cat alike, with the cat calm in their hands, one dude inside the house with Arctor, the other outdoors, where the ass and tail were. The cat had come free at last with no real injury, and then they had fed her. They did not know whose cat she was; evidently she had been hungry and smelled food through their broken window and finally, unable to rouse them, had tried to leap in. They hadn't noticed her until her shriek, and then they had forgotten their various trips and dreams for a while in her behalf.

As to "priceless works of art" he wasn't too sure, because he didn't exactly understand what that meant. At My Lai during the Viet Nam War, four hundred and fifty priceless works of art had been vandalized to death at the orders of the CIA -- priceless works of art plus oxen and chickens and other animals not listed. When he thought about that he always got a little dingey and was hard to reason with about paintings in museums like that.

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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I agree with you there.
I'm not blaming software people specifically, because there are other tech careers, but there is a growing demographic out there that doesn't value blue collar work. Yes, software engineers keep our stoplights running and our electricity on. But bus drivers get us to and from our jobs, road workers lay the roads that get us there, electrical workers put up the power lines, cable guys put in our TVs..... and so on.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
49. unions aren't just for blue collar workers
some of the strongest unions (teachers, film industry workers, etc.) are not your stereotypical manual blue collar workers

I think a skilled trades union of software developers would be an excellent idea, but most developers believe they are individually so talented that they can do everything by themselves
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #49
72. DBoon, I love your sig line. So true.
What the HELL is it about her series of badly written novels that inspires some people to revere it as Received Wisdom? Hello, Randoids, it's called fiction. In other words, she MADE IT UP! :banghead:
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #49
82. don't forget the most powerful of all
pro sports unions (i.e., "player's associations")

that's where the biggest disconnect comes from, since they pull the most weight of all, but never see themselves as 'laborers' so they never get involved in other issues
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #82
212. And they're all fucking GREEDY MILLIONAIRES. Every Fucking One of them.
It's like having Doctor's unions - it's a slap in the face to the people who REALLY NEED A UNION, not these spoiled assholes who PLAY for a living...!!!
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Glad you could post the diatribe using the labor of my peers... n/t
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
46. The problem is that your peers
have never respected the efforts and labor of anybody else. The average white-collar worker holds himself to be above those who actually physically work for a living, and has always denigrated their work. Now suddenly they are feeling just a tiny pinch of the pressure the lower class has felt for generations and they're wailing like spoiled children.

I do hope that you guys get a union and learn the power of collective bargaining and organized labor, but in all honesty you've done nothing to deserve it.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. everyone thinks they are in the top 10% of their field
Whenever a programmer brags how he is better than all his co-workers, I think, "and every single one of your coworkers says the same thing about themselves"
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. It just may be so if management tells you so....
And you still have a job in this economy. :)
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #50
171. Interesting Add To Your Point
I've worked in chemical plants helping to optimize the conditions at which the exact same quality product is made each time. It requires tons of data and lots of statistical modeling, and when it's all done, i have to make sure management reinforces the "new way" and that the operators agree to it.

Early on, i always talk to the operators about how they run these units. At any plant, on any shift, i hear the same thing: "Well, i do it this way and i know it's right, but the other operators won't listen to me." But, i hear that from nearly EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!

So, what you're saying doesn't just apply to software engineers and developers. Shop floor, shift workers feel the same way. And, not just in the United States. I think it must be a human nature thing.

Like you said, everyone thinks they're in the upper 10%, perhaps even the upper 1%.

I'm not kidding about this. I have heard what i described at least 200 times!
GAC
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #171
179. Try to get Maintenance and Operations to work together sometimes
That can be pure hell.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #179
206. I Have No Doubt You're Experience Is The Absolute Truth
Everyone thinks they know better. If they didn't, there'd be no wars!
GAC
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
76. apparently you don't know my "peers".. broad-brush often do ya ?
While this concept may be foreign to you, you are just as tired after working hours with your body as you are with your brain. Physical work and Mental work are no different, at the end of the day, your tired.

Peace,
MZr7
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #76
93. Umm.. Physical work often involves using one's brain also..
A set of hands with no brain attached is useful for food, fertilizer or decoration.

I've done both coding and what a lot of people would consider menial labor.. There is no comparison.

I've worked in a shop so hot that when we walked outside into the Florida summer to eat our bag lunches it felt like walking into air conditioning, code monkeys don't work under those kinds of conditions, at least not in the US.

You'd be surprised how much brain power it takes to do construction work, can you add, subtract, divide and multiply fractions in your head accurately and quickly? If not then you couldn't be a carpenter among a lot of other skilled trades.

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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
89. So you are saying this, to a software developer, using a computer
on the internet. That about right? :rofl: :rofl:


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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #89
101. Well give them a break... after all most folks don't know where there food comes from...
Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 09:11 PM by MazeRat7
Much less understanding the technology that allows them to criticize just how bad it is. *wink.

Peace,
MZr7
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #89
108. Cute, but you miss the point.
It's ridiculous for a software developing white-collar type to complain about unionism and people respecting his work when he represents an entire segment of the populace that refuse to recognize the importance and effort that the working class has. They've denigrated my people forever.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #108
113. I'm mising the point? Your generalizations are a joke
and so is your statement. You act like anyone who works behind a desk looks down on people who don't. Which is bullshit of the highest order.

I haven't been on DU for awhile and thanks to you I see why I don't bother anymore.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #108
122. Wow...
As a white collar worker, I've always stuck up for blue collar workers.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. You are a gem, then.
Unfortunately - in my experience, at least - you aren't representative of your compatriots.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. I'm not interested in a 6 digit salary....
Just enough to raise my kids on.

Most of my family are blue collar workers and I completely support them, as they do me.

I, in no way, shape or form consider myself to be better or superior in any way.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #123
127. That may hold true to a recent college grad...
but as for the majority of us... that is completely untrue. I come form a blue-collar, union family. I worked as a machinist to pay my tuition and earned a degree in electronics engineering. I worked in various degrees of component-level repair to micro-controller design. When those jobs dried up, I taught myself networking, systems engineering, database architecture and software development. All in all, I would say I am a fairly rounded individual that has had to roll with a lot of years of punches. Some of your posts are very insulting to me and many of the people I work with. You obviously do not have enough experience to be making the statements that you are.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #46
174. Have a heart.
All those cowboy gunslingers left over when the west was settled must have felt at loose ends, too. IT workers dared to tame a frontier, and just a few years later they find themselves corporate drones rather than visionaries.

They still see themselves as magicians, and can't quite accept that they're being treated as plumbers.

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
66. Dupe
Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 07:30 PM by DainBramaged
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
67. Yup, they "don't" want to be shackled by a (spit, wipe mouth) Union.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. I'd love to be in a union.....
However, I don't see that as a possibility anytime in the near future. See Post #39.

I believe that poster #34 (leftofthedial) summed it up perfectly.

"organize one....
but the capitalist pricks who own the software industry will just fire you and hire one of the tens of millions of laid-off technologists currently unemployed."


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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #71
83. Or the "YOUR JOB WILL GO TO INDIA" unless you work for coffee and donuts
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Yep. About sums it up. n/t
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
191. That broadbrush you're using is ridiculous.
Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 11:27 AM by Marr
What do you know about software engineers? What do you do for a living that has made you such an authority on this demographic?
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. Start one.
Be the leader you've been waiting for.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think every profession should have a union
of course, you might have to observe regular hours if you did! :) I know of some software companies that close at the holidays because otherwise their workers won't take vacations.
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. Contact a local union in your area to help you
and get busy organizing one. For advice I would look to Omaha Steve on this board, I bet he would be able to offer you some insight.


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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. You'll have a union when you form one and fight for collective bargaining rights
People got their heads bashed in by Pinkteron thugs to get the automotive unions organized. Do you expect somebody else to form your union for you? Who? Your boss? The government?

You have to fight for one.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Seriously
From the OP, you'd think that one day some kind soul just blithely handed autoworkers the golden key and *poof* a union magically appeared. :eyes:


Someone needs to read about Big Bill Haywood, Mother Jones and the countless other souls who fought to give labor unions a small foothold in this country.
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surrealAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
185. Thank you.
That's just the point I was going to make. Nobody "gives" you a union, they are the result of workers fighting for fair treatment, sometimes risking their lives, always risking their jobs.
Until a large number of programmers, including the OP or not, are willing to fight, and take that risk, it won't happen.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. Why don't you start one?
Go to the local library, pick up the US code. It is all there. Also look in the CFR, there are important rules there too.

I started one in my MUCH younger days. It still exists. Only 35 members but it exists and everyone there gets a living wage.

Just do it. DIY.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. There is an on-going effort to unionize IBM Corporation as part of the CWA. Read about it here.
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ipfilter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. I'm in IT but I belong to the Machinist Union.
It's a strange work environment.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. really... are you doing embedded or electro-mechanical ? I would like to know more n/t
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ipfilter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #24
168. Actually, I work for a Gov contractor.
We primarily do aircraft maintenance for the Air Force, thus the machinist union, but we also have the IT contract for the base. So, I'm in the IAMAW union even though I do IT work. My shop unionized years before I worked here to gain better pay and benefits. In this strange environment, I'm actually better off union that if I were in management. I joke with my bosses telling them I would like to go into management but I couldn't afford the pay cut. So, even though I'm a geek, I'm also union all the way. Solidarity Brother! :)
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. Unions aren't just for blue collar workers. As evidenced by:
Various Writers Unions
SAG
UAW's T.O.P. (teachers, office workers, professionals unit)
The many, many teachers unions (AFT, etc.)
CWA (Communications Workers of America)
SEIU
And many other unions...

Unions are organized by their workers. It's up to you to unionize your workplace. Call the union of your choice. They'll be happy to help if you're serious.
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kimmylavin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
103. IATSE
International Alliance of Theater and Stage Employees... basically covers most of Hollywood.

My husband's a 4-year vet of Local 80 - Grips.
I'm 42 days away from Local 700 - Editors.

So he's basically blue-collar, and I'm essentially a creative computer jockey.
Unions for all! :)
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #103
136. Oh IATSE, how I hope my partner will someday get a job with thee.
:) Yes, we have many IATSE buddies.
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kimmylavin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #136
143. I hope so for you!
I can't wait!

The best part is the healthcare... I went to the doctor with my husband, and it was free.
Free.
I actually cried.
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ipfilter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
169. Don't forget the various
Players Associations unions for professional sports. People don't get too uptight over MLB pitchers making $50,000 per half inning, but a fictional assembly worker making $25/hr gets people's ire up.
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
176. Air Line Pilots Association (AFL-CIO)
The Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) has done more to enhance the safety of the US commercial airlines for the flying public and working air crews than any other organization. Period.

ALPA is a great example of a union that has higher priorities than economic issues, although those are plenty important. ALPA and its member pilots are in a continuous, epic struggle with airline management, aircraft manufacturers, and the FAA over life-or-death safety issues. The history of cargo compartment fire detection and suppression is a good example. It took a body count of 110 in the fiery crash of ValuJet 592 (May 11, 1996) to finally get what ALPA had been fighting for (against the FAA and the airlines) for years (cargo compartment fire detection and suppression). That was 110 deaths in the Florida Everglades that did not have to happen.

The motto of ALPA: Schedule With Safety.

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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
15. Unions aren't bestowed from on high,workers have to
take matters into their own hands and organize.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. To the many "Why don't you start one" posts...
Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 05:59 PM by MazeRat7
Because we are too damn busy keeping our jobs. Gezzz... most engineers I know work well over 14+ hrs/day. There is barely enough time for family, sleep, and meals... thats why we don't start one, no time.

They have us by the short hairs. We don't work an 8hr shift that allows us time to do something else. Either we produce or we get fired, no matter how many hours that takes.


Peace,
MZr7
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Thank You and I Hear You. n/t
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Those are pretty much the same conditions that caused auto workers to form the UAW.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #20
187. I think a lot of people have forgotten or were never taught..
that many heads got busted forming unions in this country.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Yeah, those workers of the turn of the century were only working 12 hours a day
Seven days a week. With Pinkerton and other hired thugs at the door. In unsafe, often unsanitary conditions. Gave them plenty of time to organize and stuff.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
188. I guess our generation will have to sink that low...
in order to start getting serious about organizing again. Sad that we're willing to throw everything our great grandfathers fought for out the window because we're just too ignorant to understand what's at stake.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Do some homework on the average day for a worker at
the dawn of unionization.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Respectfully, apples and oranges...
At the "dawn", there was no singular industry, except banking, that controlled the welfare of so many. I just don't see the link between that time, those conditions, and those jobs, to what I'm asking about.

Thanks anyway,

Peace,
MZr7
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. It has nothing to do with what you do for a living.Your the one
trying to make the case that you and your fellow workers don't have time for the lowly act of organizing.If you don't want to make the effort,don't bitch about being without a union,nobody had it handed to them.
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Caliman73 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. neither steel workers, nor coal miners, nor auto wokers, nor any other industry...
worked a "standard day" until they organized and bargained for that concession collectively. As other have said, Unions did not magically appear to the workers. They were fed up with working 12 to 16 hours a day in dangerous conditions for meager wages. They spent that extra few hours that they did have listening to Union organizers on how to form one.

I actually tried to get a union formed in the job I had before my current one. It didn't take because people were too busy just trying to work as well. I understand that pressure to produce or perish, fortunately I was able to find a job that does have collective bargaining where we have some semblance of power.

I understand that you feel over worked and overwhelmed. Remember that those workers who fought to organize were feeling the same way, but they gave it that extra effort knowing that it would pay off by stabilizing their industry and giving them more security.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. Yes, most workers who need unions are under horrible pressure. That's why they need unions.
The fact that 8 hour jobs exist is the RESULT of unionization. The IWW pushed for 8 hour jobs at the turn of the century. They and others also fought for a concept called "weekends."

Family? Like those who went before you, your family will have to eat potatoes in the short term so that in a few years you *may* have a better life. Meals? You can eat on the picket line and/or while organizing. Sleep? You'll have to get by on 4 or 5 hours for a few months.

This is coming from someone who was on strike in the winter for 6 months and lived on strike benefits of $200 a week and the donations in solidarity from other union activists. In NYC, not the more affordable rust belt.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
51. the auto workers in the 1930s had the same problem
especially in Ford plants, conditions were brutal, and workers were too physically exhausted at the end of the day to do anything

It took a while, but they organized
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Understandable,
But was most of their work being outsourced at alarming rates to other countries and were they surrounded by foreign workers on visas while at work?

I'll bet if they were, a union would've never been formed.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. No outsourcing, just replaced by fresh off the boat immigrant labor
or fresh from the farm rural labor. Replacement is replacement is replacement, regardless of the method employed by the owner.

The problems you face in organizing are nothing new, and the fact that your and Maze's posts seem to imply that your situation is soooo unique is probably what so many on this thread have reacted to.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #53
61. All the more reason to organize. A union shop is a
union shop.You would have a lot more security if management had a contract with you with a clause that new hires must join the union and jobs can't be given to non union workers at the expense of union workers.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #53
112. No, they were murdered.
They formed a union anyway.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. Why the rudeness? n/t
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #116
177. People are inspired to action by shock.
Those who have unions didn't get it by complaining that someone hasn't done it for them, or complaining that they work too hard to have any spare time to organize.

If he organizes, I'll walk his picket. If he continues to impotently complain that no one's done it for him, I'll continue to goad.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #177
197. "CasualWatcher9" brought up an interesting point....
"155. you must do the work to start your own. but don't take any crap from any asshole that never did...
those that got "grandfathered" into a union by the struggles of their forefathers are all so smug about unions.

all so willing to tell you about how "you" must struggle to start up a union.

when all they ever did is to show up after that fact and pay some dues and get all of the benefits. all of those union "tough guys."



Makes me wonder how many on this thread actually started up a union on their own......or road on the backs of others.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I guess all those who lost their jobs
To NAFTA/CAFTA/WTO and weren't in unions were "lazy and whiney" for venting, as well?

:eyes:
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. What are you even talking about?
The OP can invent a million excuses for not unionizing, and for bagging on union workers. The OP should, instead, organize. Those who lost their jobs to the trade agreements were n9ot lazy nor whiney, and how you can interpret that from my post is a mystery. Lazy and whiney is complaining about mjnot being unionized while not doing anything about it. As for outsourcing, yes, it is a new phenomenon that any contemporary labor organization has to deal with, just as the labor organizing of the past dealt with and invented solutions to the historical problems THEY faced. THEY INVENTED SOLUTIONS. They didn't sit around whining about how solutions were impossible given the O So Terrible Situation. They invented solutions. That's where we are again today. We either invent solutions or we whine. By the way, contemporary labor organization IS working hard to invent solutions to outsourcing, that being organization of the global labor force. It is a bloody struggle faced with massive repression from the capitalist class all over the world, but I have 1000 time more respect for those out creating solutions than I do for whiners on internet message boards crying that they don't have a solution.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:28 PM
Original message
I was referring to your rudeness. n/t
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
95. Why is it I always miss the ones that get "removed" in my own thread.. that sucks. n/t
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #95
98. Didn't miss a thing...
Just someone being ignorant calling you rude names. :eyes:
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #98
115. I'm sure I've been called worse... *LOL n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #98
215. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
68. Odd that you have enough time to complain about your lack of time.
"Because we are too damn busy keeping our jobs. Gezzz... most engineers I know work well over 14+ hrs/day. There is barely enough time for family, sleep, and meals... thats why we don't start one, no time.

They have us by the short hairs. We don't work an 8hr shift that allows us time to do something else. Either we produce or we get fired, no matter how many hours that takes."

And that makes you different than anybody who's ever organize... how?
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #68
97. I dont' know you tell me....
Why is my profession different from any other? Are they all the same ? One size fits all?

Yes it's odd, but something "constructive" would actually be appreciated.

Peace,
MZr7
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
105. Many unions were started by industrial workers who worked 10-12 hour days
6 days a week. Either they produced or they were fired. Under horrible conditions. The companies treated them like slaves, like possessions. Read about the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire. Or the Virden Mine War. Worst conditions possible. Yet, they organized.

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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
118. Wah...
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
134. You need to be able to risk your job, even risk never being able to work in the industry again
in order to unionize. That's how it has happened in every other industry.

If you won't take risks like that, you won't have a union.

(and yeah, I was a major party to an (unsuccessful) union drive, so don't tell me I don't know of what I speak).
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #134
137. Me too.
And we lost too. But we fought the good fight. If you haven't fought the fight, you don't know the fight.
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Fading Captain Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
157. You think unions were created by 8-hour-a-day workers?
Sheesh.
Get a clue.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
211. Like you're the only ones who are working massive hours, puhleeze Vulcan
When I organized my first MR/DD group home I was working sixteen hours a day or more. I was successful in organizing the place, however lost my job in the process, management revenge. The second place I organized I was working fourteen hours plus a day, was successful, and damn near lost my job in the process, again, management payback.

Anything that is worthwhile doing require sacrifice and hard work. If you want it, work for it because it won't be handed to you on a silver platter.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
213. And the auto, miner and steel workers DIDN'T?!?! Boo hoo fucking hooo...get over yourself
and your LAZY ass and DO SOMETHING for yourself instead of complaining about it on your computer.

You want a union - GO FUCKING ORGANIZE ONE!

Look at the history of ALL the labor unions - every fucking one of these people had to organize DESPITE HAVING TO WORK LONGER THAN YOUR FUCKING FOURTEEN HOURS AND IN FUCKING MUCH WORSE CONDITIONS!!!
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #213
221. Thanks to you and all of the others on this thread
that are loudly reaffirmed the bad image and stereotypes that have haunted unions for decades. I was proud to be member of two unions in my earlier career before moving into the tech sector in the late '80s, where there are no unions. About the time when Reagan and his union busting agenda made it near impossible to form one. It was out of a need to support a family during hard times.

Through my interactions on this forum I have always stood for the rights of American workers... be them with or without a union representation. I have always supported agendas to sustain the workforce and middle class, here in the USA. I have and always will boycott purchasing a foreign vehicle. Why? Because it puts American's out of work. I know that Hanes is the only company that still makes socks and t-shirts, here, and not in China because that it how I determine what products I will purchase.

Each and every one of the union workers on here has turned your backs on the American workers that don't share the luxuries you share from your union membership. I live near a Ford Engine plant, and it has always pissed me off to see the scores of foreign cars in the employee lot.

The tech sector has been hit by a rash of paycuts, layoffs, outsourcing, H-1B and L-1B insourcing. It affects us all, just like the need for the UAW workers to keep working. Sorry, I thought you'd understand that we are on the same side here... I've done the things unions have asked of the American workers over the years to support them. An American, states that it would be great if the tech sector was unionized and you jump all over his ass? I've been insulted, called names, and told my work is worthless, because I don't work in a field like you that has a union.

The unions, especially the UAW are in very hard times right now. My tax dollars are currently being debated to save your jobs, just like everyone else. The OP did not put you or your career down, he just posed a question. And all I hear from the union workers on here is, we don't want you, and fuck you.

TankLV, would you be able to organize a union in this economy? You are quick to point fingers at how lazy others are... but what sacrifices have you endured that gives you the right to cast the stones you have with your posts? You have let me down, and are precipitating the blemishes unions have received over the past few decades.

Fortunately, I don't base my opinions of an entire group, and their worth, off the nonsense of a few idiots.
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Lifetimedem Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
17. TV personalities and movie actors have one
So call one of the professional unions and ask them to organize
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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
18. you get one
when the workers in your industry decide to stop taking shit, get off their asses and stand up to organize a union. It isn't easy and it doesn't just happen, it has to be made to happen. My grandfather helped organize back in the '30s when the companies openly sent strike-breaking goons in to beat the crap out of the striking workers. If it could be done then, it can be done now.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
22. Get together and form one
anyone can do it.It's not like an exclusive club.Sitting on your butt won't get it done though,and you may get fired for trying or harassed or if you live in columbia you may be killed.That's why there are not more unions.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. Because you're in a high competition, cut throat field
with a lot of folks wanting to be the top dog and showing that you're Scotty on the Enterprise and smarter than the next guy to bother to stand up for one another.

Lot's of loner types and as previously stated libertarians in the field too.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. We do have our share of prima donna's and loners...
It is the proverbial wild west but we are constantly getting screwed. Look at the number of layoffs by "tech" companies in the past month. There are more workers out of a job now than all the big-3 (excluding suppliers) combined if they were to shutter their operations tomorrow.

Peace,
MZr7
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
28. organize....
Unions don't just pop up out of nowhere. Organize your coworkers. Contact a union organizer and get started!
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
30. Many don't realize that if your company even gets wind of you
Even thinking of forming a union, not only are you GONE.....but good luck finding a job as word travels fast. (At this point, if one is in the tech sector and has a job....they're damn lucky) At my current company.....there aren't many American IT workers left, but H-1B's that replaced them. Think they'll want to start a union? lol

Many don't get it that not only is our work getting outsourced, but we also have to compete with cheaper labor (H-1B's and the like) coming here in abundance.

While I stand with my fellow Americans over losing their jobs to NAFTA/CAFTA/WTO.....I often feel that no one stands by us American tech workers.

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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. We want to, believe me.
But when we ask about the H1B visas, we get told by so-called Democrats that there's a shortage of tech workers and the people who get laid off all got retrained and make more money. Oh yeah, and it's racist to want to protect American jobs.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. I hear you, what we're told is a bunch of BS. n/t
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Will you be beaten? Shot? Murdered?
I'm really not trying to make light of the situation, as I understand it's difficult to get workers to even discuss organizing much less make it to certification.

But the excuses in this thread are quite ironic. As if the union organizers of yesteryear didn't face even worse dangers, weren't equally as replacable and had fewer legal protections for organizing activity than those of today.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. See Post #39. n/t
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
54. It's still an excuse
My grandfather and other union organizers of the 1930s faced the same replacement and "blackballing" issues of which you write. He still organized, his family did without for several years, and he faced the very real prospect of physical harm because of union activity in those days.

You think it's any easier for workers in the lower wage service industry to organize? And they are the fastest growing union in recent years.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. I stand by tech workers when they talk in terms of unionization.
But when they talk in terms of "I don't like unions. I don't like foreigners taking my job either..." It's hard to have sympathy. I'd wholeheartedly support a unionization campaign for tech workers. I do admit though, that it would not likely succeed because unions have never been so weak. This is largely due to the general anti-union attitude and to the tech workers and net entrepreneurs who participated in this 'start up, billionaire-by-30' mania--at least those who refused to see the light after the initial bust.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Here is a very real example to support your points...
I was working for one of the largest computer manufacturer in the world. They had many manufacturing operations around the globe. I was task with developing a "system" that would show their "demand" (backlog) in real-time rolled up to a world view. This was a multiple year project, and in the last year the development team was now in Bangalor.

Well to make a long story short, I designed the system, wrote the "stub" code and "framework" and coordinated development of the product with the Bangalor team.

On month after going "live", I was laid off. Not because my design sucked, but because they didn't need me anymore. Yes I was a senior with over 12 years and close to 100K shares in stock options, but that was simply an expense. An expense they could save by giving our code to someone else, with more credentials, that would work for less. Overseas.

Don't even get me started on how they made me design a system that would allow them to avoid paying US taxes on systems sold here in the US.

No one stands with us. Just look at the post above.

Tee hee.. Maybe we should organize and hold "software" captive unless we are paid what we want. Can you imagine the ruckus.... *LOL

Peace OhioChick...
Keep the faith, I have for so many years.

MZr7


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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. I'm sorry to hear that, but unfortunately it's typical.
People don't "get it" unless they're in the field.

I stand up for all American workers, regardless of their occupation, however the same would be nice in return. It's often hard, when I read articles such as this:

Chrysler tech center workers may have lost jobs to H-1B contractors, union claims

Automaker says visa holders aren't doing work previously done by laid-off union members

February 15, 2008 (Computerworld) Karen Trevaski worked at Chrylser LLC's technical center in Auburn Hills, Mich., until she was laid off two weeks ago along with 119 other employees. But Trevaski claims that foreign workers with H-1B visas remain on the job at Chrysler, using software systems similar to the one she used to design automotive parts.

Moreover, Trevaski believes that the H-1B workers were encouraged to learn a new version of Dassault Systèmes SA's Catia software, while she was not. "We had to fight to get V5 training," Trevaski said this week. "And the H-1B workers — they were just sending them for the training. That's why I'm angry — it's just totally wrong. It seems as if they just want to get rid of union people."

United Auto Workers Local 412, which represents the laid-off tech workers, is considering whether it should file a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board, according to Walt Atkins, the local's first vice president.

"Why," Atkins asked, "have they got these people over here from another country, taking up American jobs, and laying off American workers?" He said that there may be as many as 150 H-1B visa holders working for contractors in the technical center at Chrysler.

More: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9063099&intsrc=hm_list
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
34. organize one
but the capitalist pricks who own the software industry will just fire you and hire one of the tens of millions of laid-off technologists currently unemployed.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
64. well that seems like a bad move... n/t
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
65. Bingo! We Have a Winner! n/t
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #34
70. That's why it should be organized by trade,like the
electricians,plumbers,carpenters.etc.It has to be your whole trade organizing so there are not enough "laid off technologists" willing to scab for lower wages. Every union has had to stand up to the "there's plenty more where you came from" threat.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #70
140. we need unionization on a massive scale in this country.
we need to take the country back from the capitalist parasites.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
39. Here's a taste of why unions are impossible for IT workers....
There is no lack of skilled workers.

Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers

A new study argues that the offshoring of U.S. jobs is caused by cost savings and not a shortage of U.S. engineers or better education in China. However, the study warns that the United States is losing its global edge.

A commonly heard defense in the arguments that surround U.S. companies that offshore high-tech and engineering jobs is that the U.S. math and science education system is not producing a sufficient number of engineers to fill a corporations needs.

However, a new study from Duke University calls this argument bunk, stating that there is no shortage of engineers in the United States, and that offshoring is all about cost savings.

This report, entitled "Issues in Science and Technology" and published in the latest National Academy of Sciences magazine further explores the topic of engineering graduation rates of India, China and the United States, the subject of a 2005 Duke study.

In the report, concerns are raised that China is racing ahead of both the United States and India in its ability to perform basic research. It also asserts that the United States is risking losing its global edge by outsourcing critical R&D and India is falling behind by playing politics with education. Meanwhile, it considers China well-positioned for the future.

Dukes 2005 study corrected a long-heard myth about India and China graduating 12 times as many engineers as the United States, finding instead that the United States graduates a comparable number.

More: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Study-There-Is-N... /

As for the H-1B's coming to the U.S.....

Study Says H-1Bs Aren't the Best or Brightest

One of the main arguments touted by groups interested in seeing an increase in the cap on H-1B temporary worker visas is that those who wish to work here on these visas are some of the world's best recruits, and their addition to the work force would foster U.S. innovation and global competitiveness.

Opponents to the program argue that H-1B visas do none of the above, but are instead used by large, greedy tech companies to undercut the wages of U.S. workers, effectively pushing them out of jobs. Opponents cite fines levied against system abusers as evidence.

In an article published this month by the Center for Immigration Studies, a think tank favoring fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted, Norman Matloff, a professor at the University of California, Davis, who has been a longtime critic of the H-1B program, took a look at the median salaries of H-1B visa workers in the U.S. and found that although these workers weren't being underpaid, the median salary for a tech worker on an H-1B is simply the prevailing wage for their job and no more.

From there, Matloff drew the conclusion that if these workers were truly the best and brightest and would be able to foster U.S. innovation, they'd be able to command salaries higher than the prevailing wage.

"Most foreign tech workers, particularly those from Asia, are in fact of only average talent. Moreover, they are hired for low-level jobs of limited responsibility, not positions that generate innovation. This is true both overall and in the key tech occupations, and most importantly, in the firms most stridently demanding that Congress admit more foreign workers," Matloff writes.

More: http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/h1b_foreign_w...


The Science Education Myth

Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

Political leaders, tech executives, and academics often claim that the U.S. is falling behind in math and science education. They cite poor test results, declining international rankings, and decreasing enrollment in the hard sciences. They urge us to improve our education system and to graduate more engineers and scientists to keep pace with countries such as India and China.

Yet a new report by the Urban Institute, a nonpartisan think tank, tells a different story. The report disproves many confident pronouncements about the alleged weaknesses and failures of the U.S. education system. This data will certainly be examined by both sides in the debate over highly skilled workers and immigration (BusinessWeek.com, 10/10/07). The argument by Microsoft (MSFT), Google (GOOG), Intel (INTC), and others is that there are not enough tech workers in the U.S.

The authors of the report, the Urban Institute's Hal Salzman and Georgetown University professor Lindsay Lowell, show that math, science, and reading test scores at the primary and secondary level have increased over the past two decades, and U.S. students are now close to the top of international rankings. Perhaps just as surprising, the report finds that our education system actually produces more science and engineering graduates than the market demands.

More: http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb...

More: http://www.jobdestruction.com/shameh1b /

http://www.eng-i.com/E-Newsletters.htm

http://www.programmersguild.org /

H-1Bs And the Triumph of Buypartisanship
To really see the sheer corruption of our political process, you have to look at the lies that simply refuse to go away in the face of overwhelming facts - the myths that are utterly and completely untrue, yet which are regarded as unchallenged truth in Washington because they serve to rationalize Big Money's agenda.

Regular readers of this my writing know that two of those lies are the Great Education Myth and the Great Labor Shortage Lie. The first says that if only Americans obtained more skills and education, they would be able to obtain high-paying jobs. The second says that America faces a shortage of workers, which requires companies to import workers from abroad. Both of these fables have been thoroughly debunked by economic data and economic analysis from across the political spectrum.

The Great Education Myth and the Great Labor Shortage Lie converge in the debate over H-1B visas - the visas that the American government gives to corporations allowing them to import high-skilled workers from abroad. Lobbyists and the Members of Congress they have bought push for more H-1B visas by claiming that because Americans are not properly educated, they don't have the skills needed for high-tech jobs, and thus, there is a shortage of domestic high-tech workers to fill such jobs.

Again, this rationale has been exposed as a fraud. Duke University researchers this year definitively proved that there is, in fact, no shortage of engineers in the United States. Rochester Institute of Technology professor Ron Hira has published a study proving that the H-1B program accelerates job outsourcing. His study was verified by data showing that the companies that most use the H-1B program are those whose whole business is outsourcing. Meanwhile, top corporate lawfirms - hired by the very companies lobbying for more H-1B visas under the guise of the Great Labor Shortage Lie - have been caught on tape running seminars on how to abuse the H-1B system as a tool to lower American workers' wages, which the data again shows is exactly what the program does.

Yet, despite all of the facts and despite the 2006 election that saw Democrats promise to defend the economic interests of America's middle class, we get this story from Roll Call today:

"A key bipartisan group of lawmakers is pushing for enacting a short-term boost in immigration visas by the end of the year...A letter from the New Democrats signed by 16 Members to Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) on Monday urged a significant boost to the numbers of visas allowed for tech workers, nurses, agricultural workers and seasonal workers to alleviate a crush of demand from employers. The technology industry in particular has been vocal about its desire to expand the H-1B visa program for highly skilled immigrants...The push to add visas for high-tech workers has support even among some House Republicans...House Minority Leader John Boehner (Ohio) was among the 30 Republicans who signed a letter to Pelosi earlier this month calling for cutting red tape so that high-tech companies can get the workers they need. The Republican letter...said lawmakers should 'find a way to ensure that America continues to attract the best and brightest minds from around the world' and allow companies to do so 'without unnecessary delays and waiting periods.'...The New Democrats, meanwhile, have already had meetings with House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (Md.) in which they've made it clear that expanding visas is a top priority."

More: http://www.credoaction.com/sirota/2007/10/h1bs_and_the_...

Research finds US H1B visa holders paid less

A recent report suggests that US employers are using the H-1B visa program to pay lower wages than the national average for programming jobs.

According to "The Bottom of the Pay Scale: Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers — F.Y. 2004," a report by Programmers Guild board member John Miano, non-U.S. citizens working in the United States on an H-1B visa are paid "significantly less than their American counterparts."

How much less? "On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state."

Miano based his report on OES (Occupational Employment Statistics) data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics which estimates wages for the entire country by state and metropolitan area. The report's H-1B wage data came from the U.S. Department of Labor's H-1B disclosure Web site.

Miano, in his report, whenever possible gave the benefit of the doubt to the employer. For example, he used OES data from 2003 because this is the wage information that would have been available to the employers when filing an LCA (labor condition application).

Miano had some difficulty matching OES job codes with LCA job titles, which employers typically create. Where both the OES and the LCA listed a job as "programmer/analyst," Miano took the conservative approach of assuming that the LCA was describing a programmer, a job title that typically earns a lower wage than a systems analyst.

More: http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_10_26/us/us_h1b_vis...

Are tech firms faking job ads to avoid hiring U.S. workers?

Companies like Hewlett Packard, Cisco, and others are being accused of skirting federal laws to hire foreign workers while laying off American geeks. Cringely labors to uncover the truth.

TAGS: Come Hell or HP


Ask the Programmers Guild that question, and their answer would be an emphatic "yes!" The New Jersey-based organization has accused Hewlett Packard of advertising for jobs it has no intention of filling -- at least with US citizens -- on the Idaho Department of Labor Web site.

Federal regulations require U.S. corporations that wish to request a green card for a foreign worker to demonstrate that no qualified U.S. workers are available to fill the job. So, the argument goes, HP is allegedly posting fake jobs online and in newspapers to fulfill the requirements of Uncle Sam's Program Electronic Review Management process. Resumes come in, Americans get winnowed out, and the PERM job goes to Enrique or Sanjay or Vladimir.

The key bit of evidence: Job applications are directed not to HP's normal human resources department but to one of its immigration specialists.

A Hewlett Packard spokesperson responded thusly:

The programmer's guild website and press release on HP is inaccurate and misleading. The job notices that were on the Idaho state job bank last week appeared in error. We are working with the Idaho Department of Labor to assure such errors do not occur in the future. HP has no plans to substitute American workers with foreign nationals for these roles.
HP is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate against any workers, but always seeks to hire the best and the brightest and that includes a small percentage (2-3%) of foreign nationals.


Blogger (and recently downsized HP engineer) Clayton Cramer notes that HP said those Idaho job postings were a mistake and would be taken down. Curiously, he adds, very similar ads for job at HP appeared on the site a few days later.

Programmers Guild president Kim Berry says companies prefer H-1B workers because foreign workers' options are limited: They aren't allowed to change jobs for several years, they may be forced to work overtime without pay, and they're less likely to question management decisions. "It's a form of indentured servitude," he says.

The Guild isn't the only group squawking about this. Blogger James Fulford has accused HP of laying off older Americans and then posting ads for jobs that are pretty much identical to the ones they just "eliminated." The motive: to replace older, better paid employees with younger, cheaper PERM employees.

Meanwhile, HP recently announced it's slashing 24,600 employees as a result of its merger with EDS, half of them employed in the States. According to SiliconValley.com, "HP said it plans to replace about half those jobs with new positions performing other functions."

It will be interesting to see how they define "other functions."

Of course, HP is hardly the only company suspected of doing this. Cisco has been accused of running similarly bogus ads. Last year, the Guild posted a YouTube video showing Pittsburgh law firm Cohen & Grisgsby giving a tutorial on how to skirt the legal requirements to hire H-1B workers that created a small firestorm on the Net and even woke up two members of Congress. (They resumed their nap shortly thereafter.)

Is this illegal? Technically not, says Berry. "But the companies are supposed to make a good faith effort to hire Americans. It's not good faith if they're getting resumes from highly qualified candidates and looking for reasons not to hire them."

Finally, frequent Cringe contributor J. H. shares this viral video, titled "Developers Are in Pain." It doesn't have anything to do with immigration or H-1B visas, but it's pretty damned funny -- and very true.


More: http://weblog.infoworld.com/robertxcringely/archives/20...

H-1B foes try to prove student-visa extension hurts U.S. tech workers

Lawsuit against DHS hinges on convincing judge that plaintiffs have legal standing in case


September 23, 2008 (Computerworld) A federal lawsuit pitting H-1B opponents against the Bush administration is hinging on one question: Do tech workers have a right to challenge the federal government in court over its visa policies?

Critics of the H-1B program have long argued that it has created unfair competition for jobs, depressed wages, fostered discrimination and provided a lubricant for offshore outsourcing. Proving that in court is the focus of a lawsuit filed in May by the Programmers Guild, the Immigration Reform Law Institute and other groups over the Bush administration's extension of the time that foreign nationals who graduate from U.S. colleges with science or technology degrees can work on their student visas from one year to 29 months.

The lawsuit claims that the extension will exacerbate the harm caused by the H-1B program, and that the administration exceeded its legal authority by stretching the student-visa rules. But U.S. District Judge Faith Hochberg, who is hearing the case in New Jersey, is pushing back. In August, she rejected a request for a temporary injunction against the extension, citing arguments raised by the U.S. government that question whether the plaintiffs had legal standing to file the lawsuit in the first place.

Both sides recently filed court papers on that issue, in advance of an expected ruling by Hochberg later this year. The arguments over legal standing can be boiled down to the question of whether tech workers have been injured by the Bush administration's decision to extend the length of time that foreign graduates can stay in the U.S. without obtaining work visas.

The government contended in its latest filing that the injuries cited by the plaintiffs are "speculative" in nature. But in their legal brief, the plaintiffs said that prior case law is clear in showing that "economic competition is an injury-in-fact." They added that the student-visa extension "specifically targets the fields in which plaintiffs work." As a result, they claimed, "the injury is not speculative — it is intended."

More: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=...

NJ company fined for violating H1-B visa program

September 18, 2008
TRENTON, N.J. - An Iselin computer consulting firm has been fined more than $80,000 for allegedly violating federal immigration rules that allow companies to hire foreign workers under a special visa program.

The U.S. Department of Labor has ordered the Iselin-based Data Group Inc. to pay the money to 11 foreign-born workers after an investigation found the company violated the program.

The Immigration and Nationality Act's H-1B visa program allows companies to temporarily hire foreign-born workers with special skills when they can't locally recruit to fill a position.

Federal labor officials say the company failed to pay required wages for one year to computer experts hired under the program.

More: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newjersey/ny-bc-...

HP lays off 25000 and runs phony job ads

IS HEWLETT-PACKARD VIOLATING IMMIGRATION LAW?
There is reason to suspect that Hewlett-Packard may be violating the immigration laws of the United States and putting Treasure Valley breadwinners out of work at the same time.

This is particularly disturbing in light of HP?s announced intention to lay off an additional 24,600 workers, half in the U.S., over the next three years. Given the soft housing market, the effect will be brutal on local HP employees who get the ax.

A number of software engineers who had worked for HP were recently given pink slips. Astonishingly, however, HP, as of yesterday, was still advertising for software engineers to work at the Boise facility and was doing so, it turns out, through the Idaho Department of Labor. The positions, however, are not listed on HP?s internal job list.

According to one recent victim of local HP engineering layoffs, one has to log in to the Department of Labor website and actually apply for a job before he finds out that the prospective employer is Hewlett-Packard.

Applicants are instructed to send their resumes to a Petra Ramirez at [email protected], who works out of HP?s Cupertino, Calif. office. (Ms. Ramirez did not respond either to the IVA?s emails or phone messages asking for clarification.)

The signature block for Ms. Ramirez ? and remember, all resumes for Boise jobs flow through her rather than through normal channels ? identifies her as ?HP Americas Immigration Consultant.?

Thus it looks suspiciously like Hewlett-Packard is laying off American engineers in order to replace them with lower-priced talent from overseas, likely intending to bring them into the U.S. on H-1B visas.

But according to an August memo from the U.S. Department of Labor, this is flatly illegal, since H-1B visas are only to be granted when qualified American citizens and legal residents can?t be found. Says the memo:

?The Department of Labor has a statutory responsibility to ensure that no foreign worker (or ?alien?) is admitted for permanent residence based upon an offer of employment absent a finding that there are not sufficient U.S. workers who are able, willing, qualified and available for the work to be undertaken and that the admission of such worker will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of U.S. workers similarly employed. 8 U.S.C. ? 1182(a)(5)(A)(i).?

According to the United States General Accounting Office, employers making application for H-1B visas must certify that ?the employment of H-1B workers will not adversely affect the working conditions of other workers similarly employed in the area.?

HP, I?ve always said, is one of the most effective anti-poverty organizations in Idaho, since the antidote to poverty is jobs. But certainly part of making Idaho the friendliest place in the world to raise a family involves ensuring that HP honors our nation?s immigration laws and protects local jobs in the process.

Perhaps there is a simple and honest explanation for all this. If there is, HP owes it to us all to provide that explanation immediately.

More: http://www.idahovaluesalliance.com/news.asp?id=895

Johnston: U.S. has outsourced its self-respect (Good Read)

In his 2001 biography of Theodore Roosevelt, "Theodore Rex," Edmund Morris wrote, "Indeed (the United States) could consume only a fraction of what it produced. The rest went overseas at a price that other exporters found hard to match. As Andrew Carnegie said, "The nation that makes the cheapest steel has the other nations at its feet." "More than half the world's cotton, corn, copper, and oil flowed from the American Cornucopia, and at least one third of all steel, iron, silver, and gold."

This was the United States in 1901. Roosevelt had just become president because of William McKinley's assassination, and he recognized that America was a country of hard workers that needed a break and a share of the wealth that they were producing. Morris goes on to write, "Even if the United States was not blessed with raw materials, the excellence of her manufactured products guaranteed her dominance of world markets.

Advertisements in British magazines gave the impression that the typical Englishman woke to the ring of an Ingersoll alarm (clock), shaved with a Gillette razor, combed his hair with Vaseline tonic, buttoned his Arrow shirt, hurried downstairs for Quaker Oats, California Figs, and Maxwell House Coffee, commuted in a Westinghouse tram (body by Fisher), rose to his office in an Otis elevator, and worked all day with his Waterman pen under the efficient glare of Edison light bulbs.

"It only remains," One Fleet Street wag (in Standard American English, that's a reporter folks) suggested, "for us to take American coal to Newcastle."

Morris then goes on to write, "Behind the joke lay a real concern: The United States was already supplying beer to Germany, pottery to Bohemia, and oranges to Valencia."

Morris then proceeds to tell the reader that the United States was the richest nation on earth with an economy that was growing by leaps and bounds, and that London was about to be replaced as the financial capital of the world. It was a very rosy outlook for what would be called "The American Century." That was in 1901. In 2008, after the eight year reign of George Bush, things don't look as well for us as they did in 1901 or 2001 either. Just why is that?

Just ask anyone who has been on the point of termination in their job and asked to stay on for a few weeks to train their replacement in India what they think about the outsourcing of jobs. The man whose job was outsourced to India's sister was visiting me and telling me about his thoughts on the subject. They were a bit more colorful than I can relate here.

Don't think for a moment that a college degree or two will save you from having your job outsourced. It won't. These outsourcing horror stories are really close to home. Many people have been educated for what were supposed to be safe jobs, and would be yet, if the greedy corporations were not outsourcing their jobs or stealing their pension funds just to squeeze out a few more dollars of profit.

There should be huge fines, taxes, and other fiscal punishments imposed on companies who outsource Americans' jobs to other countries. Such fines should also be imposed on business and factories relocated to other countries. Each year we make less and less in terms of manufactured goods and lose hundreds of thousands, and sometimes millions, of jobs that pay a living wage.

Last week I was making the argument at the home of a friend that Americans are too willing to buy cheaper foreign goods or cannot find American-made goods in the market. Just to really make the point, I took my friend and his bride on a tour of their home. Their bureau drawers revealed clothes made all over the Asian continent, South America, and Mexico (which is part of North America).

Their toaster, microwave, telephone, radios and other appliances were made in China. Their shoes were made in India, and much of the food in their kitchen came from foreign nations. One of their cars was made in Japan and the other was made in Germany. OK, I confess that I drive a BMW, but my van is a Ford which was not made in Mexico, and it's also older than half the people who live in the country.

So what does this state of affairs portend for the nation?

Morris wrote in his book about the year 1901, "As a result of this billowing surge in productivity, Wall Street was awash in foreign capital. Carnegie calculated that America could afford to buy the entire United Kingdom (That's England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland) and settle Britain's national debt in the bargain.

"For the first time in history, translantic money currents were thrusting more powerfully westward than east (toward Europe). Even the Bank of England has begun to borrow money on Wall Street. New York City seemed destined to replace London as the world's financial center."

Today we are up to our eyebrows in debt to China. Thank you so much George Bush and your Republican Party too. Do you remember the nice big Clinton cash surplus we had seven and a half years ago?

So that is this week's look at then and now. It's not too pretty, is it? With this election year, I say it's time to give the other team a try. Never in our history have working people been so looked down on and shown less respect. Never has the working citizen been so stripped of a way to make a decent living. Never have workers had so many jobs taken away from them and sent to distant parts of the planet. Never in our history of the last 70 years have unions had such a low membership. Never before have working class Americans been so brutally treated in every area.

Too many people are forced by circumstances to become service workers and wage slaves. As Labor Day draws near, reflect on these things as we outsource our self respect along with the jobs of American laborers that we have betrayed as a nation. And it's really too bad that we don't make anything anymore to sell at home or abroad.

More: http://www.milforddailynews.com/opinion_columnists/x594...

Government Study Finds 21% Of H-1B Applications Violate Rules

The government estimates that fraud, including below-market wages and filings by fake businesses, is present in 13,000 of the yearly H-1B petitions filed.


October 20, 2008 04:40 PM


The United States government estimates that 21% of H-1B visa petitions are in violation of H-1B program rules -- ranging from technical violations to fraud -- based on the investigation of a representative sample.

A newly available report on the study, drafted by the Office of Fraud Detection and National Security, cites one of the most common violations as businesses that did not pay a "prevailing wage" to the H-1B beneficiary, meaning the going salary rate for a job in a specific market.

The report's estimates are based on a sample study of 246 cases, out of a total of 95,827 H-1B petitions, filed between October 2005 and March 2006. The sample cases included only those in which a business was looking to extend an existing H-1B visa for someone already in the United States, or hire someone under the H-1B program who came to the United States on a different visa. (The study excluded situations in which the visa beneficiary was still living abroad due to the complication of interviewing that person.)

Out of the 246 cases investigated, the government office determined that 51 cases, or 21%, were in violation of H-1B program rules. "When applying the overall violation rate of <21%> to the overall H-1B population, a total of approximately 20,000 petitions may have some type of fraud or technical violation," according to the report. Further extrapolation finds that 13,000 of those cases would represent acts of fraud, with the remaining 7,000 being less-severe technical violations, says the report.

More: http://www.informationweek.com/news/management/h1b/show...

Immigration racket run by Indian busted in US

Washington, June 16: With the arrest of seven Indians, US authorities have claimed to have busted an immigration racket run by an IT company owner who charged tens of thousands of dollars from expatriates by fraudulently sponsoring their H-1B work visas.

The alleged kingpin, Nilesh Dasondi, 41, was arrested last week on multiple counts of visa fraud involving his company Cygate Software and Consulting Inc. that runs offices in India and Canada.

A naturalised US citizen, Dasondi, who is also member of the Edison township board in New Jersey, was released after posting a USD800,000 bail but must remain under home confinement with electronic monitoring.

According to court papers cited in Newsday daily, Dasondi is accused of filing federal work visa and immigration documents for six people who did not work for his company between 2003 and 2007, authorities said. All the six have been arrested.

More: http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Immigration-rac...

AFL-CIO says student visa extension hurts tech wages

June 13, 2008 (Computerworld) WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration's decision to allow foreign students to work in the U.S. for up to 29 months before getting an H-1B visa faces opposition from the AFL-CIO. The largest labor organization in the U.S. labeled the move a backdoor H-1B cap increase that could lower wages for U.S. tech workers, according to comments about the rule change made available this week by the government.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) made the "emergency" rule change earlier this year to deal with the limits imposed by the 85,000 slot H-1B cap. The government received 163,000 applications this year for those visas. What the DHS did was extend the Optional Practical Training (OPT) provision that previously allowed students to work after graduation for one year on their student visa. Although the change is a done deal under the agency's "emergency" rule-making provisions, the federal government still had to seek comments.

Ana Avendano, director of the AFL-CIO's immigrant worker program, wrote, in comments posted Thursday on Regulations.gov, that "by extending the OPT period and work authorization period, the interim final rule turns a student visa program into a labor market program, and essentially lifts the cap that Congress has placed on the H-1B program."

Moreover, Avendano said the rule change "allows employers to completely bypass" any of the protections in the H-1B program that prevent employers, for instance, from using foreign workers to break a strike. Moreover, students working on OPT won't have to be paid the prevailing wage as required under the H-1B program. An OPT employee could, theoretically, work for minimum wage, she wrote.

More: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=...

DOJ settles H-1B job ad case for $45,000

Complaint filed by Programmers Guild over H-1B-only job ad

May 2, 2008 (Computerworld) A Pittsburgh-based computer consulting company that advertised for H-1B visa holders only is paying $45,000 in civil penalties to settle allegations that it discriminated against U.S. citizens, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) said Thursday.

The company, iGate Mastech Inc., placed 30 job announcements between May and June of 2006 "for computer programmers that expressly favored H-1B visa holders to the exclusion of U.S. citizens, lawful permanent residents and other legal U.S. workers," the DOJ said in a statement.

A complaint against iGate Mastech was filed by the Programmers Guild in 2006. It was one of dozens of complaints lodged by the Summit, N.J.-based organization against various companies.

John Miano, who founded the guild, said in a statement that the DOJ's announcement was "is probably the most visible result" of the guild's campaign against companies that discriminate against U.S. workers "in favor of cheap H-1B workers."

One job advertisement by iGate Mastech for a Java developer on Dice Holdings Inc.'s job board said "Only H-1s apply, and should be willing to transfer H-1B."

"The problem of companies only looking for H-1B workers is a serious one," said Miano. "We are only scratching the surface right now with the companies that are brazen enough to put out ads like these."

More: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=...

US senators question 9 IT firms over H1-B visas

Despite an over 50 per cent drop in the number of H1-B visas issued to some Indian IT firms in 2007 against 2006, US Democrat senators Richard J Durbin and Charles E Grassley have written to nine Indian companies that figure among the top 25 recipients of approved H-1B visa petitions in 2007 seeking detailed information on how they use the visa programme.

The letters, which come ahead of the US elections in November, are part of an effort to determine if the H-1B programme is being used for its intended purpose to fill a temporary worker shortage.

The senators had written a letter on similar lines last May too.

The Indian IT firms are Infosys Technologies, Wipro, Satyam Computer Services, Cognizant Tech Solutions, Tata Consultancy Services (TCS), Patni Computer Systems, Larsen & Toubro Infotech, i-Flex Solutions and Mphasis.

More: http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?au...

Tech companies get creative to hire foreign workers in the U.S.

On Tuesday, the federal government begins accepting visa applications for 65,000 skilled foreign workers. But much as it could use some extra help, Progress Software Corp. won't be applying for any of these coveted H-1B visas.

Instead, the Massachusetts company is embracing a different visa program, called L-1, that lets businesses import workers who've already been hired at their overseas offices.

...

Despite the slowing economy, companies say it's hard to find enough highly skilled workers. The H-1B program was designed to help businesses hire capable foreign workers, but demand for the 65,000 visas far exceeded supply in 2007, and the same is expected this year.

...

But critics of U.S. immigration policy say some companies are misusing the L-1 program. "We have found and heard lots of stories recently of companies that are really kind of abusing it," said Bob Meltzer, chief executive of Visanow.com, a Chicago company that processes visa applications online.

More: http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stor...

U.S. Sen. Grassley: Questions immigration agency about fraud

U.S. Sen. Grassley: Questions immigration agency about fraud
10/9/2008

Grassley Questions Immigration Agency About Fraud in H-1B Program

fraud takes opportunities away from American workers and law-abiding employers

WASHINGTON – Following release of an internal report by Citizenship and Immigration Services that outlines serious fraud in the H-1B visa program, Senator Chuck Grassley today sent a letter to the agency asking for additional details about how the government is enforcing the H-1B visa laws.

“The results of this report validate exactly what I’ve been fearful of-some employers are bringing H-1B visa holders into our country with complete disregard for the law. More needs to be done to ensure the American worker is our first priority,” Grassley said. “The system is obviously broken when an H-1B visa holder is working at a laundromat rather than in high-skilled industries. The fraud and abuse outlined in this report shows that it’s time to put some needed reform in place.”

Grassley has led the effort to reform the H-1B visa program. He introduced a comprehensive H-1B and L visa reform bill last year with Senator Dick Durbin that would give priority to American workers and crack down on unscrupulous employers who deprive qualified Americans of high-skill jobs. He has also asked questions of both American and foreign based companies about their use of the H-1B visa program.

Grassley said the report should serve as a wake-up call to the agency. He urged them to better detect serious violations by employers who abuse the system.

Here is a copy of the letter Grassley sent to Jonathan Scharfen, the Acting Director of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services. A copy of the report can be found on Grassley’s website, http://grassley.senate.gov .

October 9, 2008

The Honorable Jonathan Scharfen
Acting Director
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services
Department of Homeland Security
20 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, D. C. 20529

Dear Director Scharfen:

As a senior member of the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Refugees, I have taken a keen interest in the H-1B visa program over the years and how it benefits the United States. However, I have found serious problems with this program, including loopholes that are disadvantageous to American workers and U.S. businesses. My concerns are further intensified after reading your agency’s Benefit Fraud and Compliance Assessment that points to direct fraud and abuse by a number of employers and petitioners.

Before I begin to discuss the report, I want to express my immense frustration about the length of time it took for USCIS to provide the results to Congress. I first inquired about FDNS doing a benefit fraud assessment just after it finished the religious worker report in August 2005. Since then, I have asked for briefings and updates, only to be put off and told to wait. In response, I asked the appropriations committee to include language in the FY2008 Homeland Security spending bill to provide funding and require the agency to finish the assessment. In April 2008, you responded to me in writing by stating, “I anticipate that I will be able to share the report with you within the next few weeks.” The H-1B benefit fraud assessment was completed several months ago, yet the results were apparently hidden from Congress at a time when legislation could have been enacted. The constant delay has been unacceptable, and likely problematic for USCIS adjudicators who may have continued to rubber stamp fraudulent applications for H-1B visas.

The H-1B benefit fraud and compliance assessment highlights the rampant fraud and abuse that is taking place in the program. Experts have acknowledged that many employers disregard the spirit of the law, and find ways to circumvent worker protections to hire cheaper foreign labor. With a violation rate of more than 20%, this assessment should serve as a wake-up call to your agency that the H-1B visa program is not working as it was intended.

It alarms me that USCIS had already approved 217 of the 246 cases in the sample. This means that 19% of the approved cases were associated with fraud or involved employers who broke the law. Only 2% of the sampled cases were denied, which suggest that not enough fraud prevention and detection efforts were incorporated in the adjudication process.

I also find it concerning that FDNS uses the phrase “technical violation” when it relates to employers or alien beneficiaries who failed to comply with the law. When an employer requires its workers to pay for the visa and application fees, or does not pay them the required prevailing wage, it is against the law. This blatant disregard for the law is not a “technical” violation.

While the H-1B benefit fraud and compliance assessment proves that wrongdoing truly does exist, it also brings up many unanswered questions that USCIS must address. Therefore, I would appreciate a response to the following questions:

1. What actions, if any, has USCIS taken since the assessment was completed earlier this Spring?

2. Since the assessment was finalized, has USCIS taken steps to review, evaluate and/or revoke petitions or applications approved, denied, or pending after March 31, 2006 (the date of the sample)?

3. More than 80% of the violations were detected because of site visits. It’s evident that false job locations, shell business scams and inconsistent job duties could easily be prevented if more site visits were conducted by USCIS. What efforts will your agency take to increase the number of site visits to increase fraud detection in the program?

4. Given that Congress allows USCIS to collect a $500 fraud prevention and detection fee, please describe how you will use these funds to more effectively root out fraud and abuse in the H-1B visa program.

5. The assessment states that FDNS refers cases of fraud to Immigration and Customs Enforcement for consideration of formal criminal investigation and prosecution. “ICE then has 60 days to accept the case for investigation or decline it and return it to FDNS. If ICE declines to open a criminal investigation, FDNS forwards the case with its administrative findings to a USCIS adjudications component for denial or revocation of the petition or application, as appropriate.”

* How many times has FDNS referred a case to ICE for investigation? * Of those cases referred to ICE, how many, to your agency’s knowledge, were investigated? How many were declined by ICE and returned to FDNS? * Of those cases referred and then investigated by ICE, how many petitions or applications were denied or revoked? How many cases were approved, despite FDNS’ findings that fraud was committed or a violation of law occurred?

6. Given that the assessment examined all levels of fraud, including the filing of the labor certification with the Department of Labor, did USCIS inform the Department of Labor as it worked to complete the assessment? What recommendations, if any, has USCIS relayed to the Department of Labor to improve the labor certification process? What response, as far as you know, did the Department of Labor have to the assessment and to your recommendations?

7. What steps does USCIS plan to take to improve communication and coordination with the Department of Labor with regard to the H-1B visa program?

8. Please describe in more detail the abuse by employers to put a beneficiary in a non-productive status (or “on the bench”). What steps has USCIS taken to ensure that visa holders are not imported only to be benched, unpaid, or inactive?

9. The assessment points out which occupational categories are more susceptible to fraud and abuse. Does USCIS plan to train adjudicators and institute detection strategies to more effectively determine when an employer misrepresents, underpays, or forges documents in order to obtain an H-1B visa holder in these (and all) categories?

10. What actions did USCIS take against companies that were found to violate the program? Will the employers (and their employees) be held accountable or referred to the Department of Justice for prosecution? Will the guilty employers be considered for debarment or suspension from being eligible for federal contracts, and will these employers be referred to the General Services Administration so that other agencies can be made aware of their misconduct? Will USCIS deny these employers further participation in the H-1B visa program?

I hope you share my frustration with the results of this benefit fraud and compliance assessment. I strongly urge you to do everything within your authority to make sure that the program is used as Congress intended, and that employers are held accountable for any wrongdoing. Fraud and abuse cannot be tolerated, especially as many legitimate businesses in the United States are willing to play by the rules to bring in needed temporary workers in high-skilled industries.

I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible so that we can move forward and enact legislation that will reform the H-1B visa program. Changes must be made to put integrity back into our visa programs, and your input will help us tackle that endeavor.

Sincerely,

Charles E. Grassley

United States Senator
(Dick Durbin is working on this with Charles Grassley)

http://www.iowapolitics.com/index.iml?Article=138527

Durbin and Grassley Zero in on H-1B Visa Data


Tuesday, April 1, 2008


– United States Senators Dick Durbin (D-IL) and Chuck Grassley (R-IA) sent a letter today to the top 25 recipients of approved H-1B visa petitions in 2007, seeking detailed information on how each firm uses the visa program. These firms were responsible for nearly 20,000 of the available H-1B visas last year.

“By the end of the day today, all of the H-1B visas for the year will likely be spoken for,” Durbin said. “The H-1B program can’t be allowed to become a job-killer in America. We need to ensure that firms are not misusing these visas, causing American workers to be unfairly deprived of good high-skill jobs here at home.”

Durbin and Grassley have repeatedly raised concerns that the loopholes in the H-1B and L-1 visa programs are allowing for the outsourcing of American jobs. Last year, they introduced the H-1B and L-1 Visa Fraud and Abuse Prevention Act, which would require H-1B applicants to make a good faith effort to hire American workers first and would give the Department of Labor greater oversight authority in investigating possible fraud and abuse.

"I have no doubt that we'll hear arguments all day as to why the cap on H-1B visas should be raised, but nobody should be fooled. The bottom line is that there are highly skilled American workers being left behind, searching for jobs that are being filled by H-1B visa holders," Grassley said. "It's time to close the loopholes that have allowed this to happen and enact real reform."

The letters are part of an effort to determine if the H-1B program is being used for its intended purpose - to fill a worker shortage for a temporary time period. Durbin and Grassley said they expect the companies to cooperate and answer their questions to ensure that accurate information is being used to address future reforms of the program.

The H-1B visa program allows American companies to employ temporary foreign workers in “specialty occupations,” often in the high tech industry, while the L visa program is for intracompany transfers of managers, executives and specialists.

The letter was sent to the following companies: Infosys Technologies Ltd., Wipro Limited, Satyam Computer Services Ltd., Cognizant Tech Solutions, Microsoft Corporation, Tata Consultancy Services Ltd., Patni Computer Systems Inc., US Technology Resources LLC, I-Flex Solutions Inc., Intel Corporation, Accenture LLP, Cisco Systems Inc., Ernst & Young LLP, Larsen & Toubro Infotech Ltd., Deloitte & Touche LLP, Google Inc., Mphasis Corporation, University of Illinois at Chicago, American Unit Inc., Jsmn International Inc., Objectwin Technology Inc., Deloitte Consulting, Prince Georges County Public Schools, JPMorgan Chase and Co., and Motorola Inc.

A copy of the letter appears below:


April 1, 2008

Dear Sir/Madam:

We write to inquire about your company’s use of H-1B and L-1 visas. Congress intended these visa programs to benefit the American economy by allowing U.S. employers to import high-skilled or highly-specialized workers when needed to complement the domestic workforce. However, we are concerned that these programs, as currently structured, are facilitating the outsourcing of American jobs.

As you know, today is the deadline for filing H-1B visa petitions. If past years are any guide, enough applications will be filed today to exhaust the annual allotment of H-1B visas. We understand that many employers would like Congress to make more H-1B visas available. However, we must be mindful of the impact importing more foreign workers will have on American workers, especially in light of the recent economic downturn.

We believe that before increasing the H-1B cap, Congress must close loopholes in the H-1B and L-1 programs that harm American workers. For example, under current law only employers that employ H-1B visa holders as a large percentage of their U.S. workforce are required to attempt to recruit American workers before hiring a H-1B visa holder. Most companies can explicitly discriminate against American workers by recruiting and hiring only H-1B visa holders. As the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) has said: “H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of a foreign worker.”

Additionally, we are concerned that some companies may be circumventing the requirements of the H-1B visa program by using other visa programs, such as the L-1, to bring in cheaper foreign labor. While the L-1 visa program allows intercompany transfers to enter the United States, experts have concluded that some companies use the L-1 visa to bypass even the minimal protections for American workers that are in the H-1B program.

We have introduced S.1035, the H-1B and L-1 Visa Fraud and Abuse Prevention Act of 2007. This bipartisan legislation would reform the H-1B and L-1 visa programs to prevent abuses and protect American companies and workers. For example, S.1035 would require all employers seeking to hire an H-1B visa holder to first make a good-faith effort to hire an American worker.

According to statistics recently released by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, your company was one of the top 25 recipients of approved H-1B petitions in 2007. Understanding your company’s use of high-skilled visas would help to inform further our views of the H-1B and L-1 visa programs. Accordingly, we would appreciate your responses to the following questions:

1.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years and fiscal year 2009, how many H-1B visa petitions have you submitted to USCIS and how many of these petitions have been approved?
b. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many people have you employed in the U.S. and outside the U.S.?
c. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many U.S. citizens, H-1B visa holders, L-1A, and L-1B visa holders, and other foreign nationals have you employed in the U.S. and outside the U.S.? If you have employed other foreign nationals in the U.S., please specify the type of visas held by such nationals.

2.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, have you been a H-1B dependent employer?
b. Would you support legislation prohibiting a company from hiring additional H-1B visa holders if the company employs more than 50 people and more than 50% of the company’s employees are H-1B and L-1 visa holders? Please explain.

3.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many Labor Condition Applications (LCA) have you submitted to DOL and how many of these LCAs have been approved? How many H-1B visa holders were covered by these LCAs?
b. If DOL denied any LCAs you submitted, what reasons did DOL give for the denial?
c. If you are a H-1B dependent employer, for how many LCAs have you claimed an exemption from the requirements to make a good-faith effort to recruit American workers and not to displace American workers (i.e. Alternative C in section F-1 of the LCA)? How many H-1B visa holders were covered by these exempt LCAs?

4.
a. Please provide a detailed description of your recruitment process for open positions, including any relevant company policies and where you advertise.
b. Do you give priority to U.S. citizens when filling open positions? Do you make a good-faith effort to recruit U.S. citizens for open positions before recruiting foreign nationals? If yes, please provide a detailed description of these efforts.
c. Would you support legislation requiring all employers seeking to hire an H-1B visa holder first to make a good-faith effort to hire an American worker? Please explain.
d. Would you support legislation requiring all employers seeking to hire an H-1B visa holder first to advertise the job opening for a reasonable period of time on a website operated by DOL? Please explain.

5.
a. Are there any positions for which you only recruit or give priority to foreign nationals?
b. Are there any positions for which you advertise that you will only hire foreign nationals and/or H-1B visa holders?
c. Would you support legislation requiring that employers may not advertise a job as available only for H-1B visa holders or recruit only H-1B visa holders for a job? Please explain.

6.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many foreign workers, H-1B visa holders, L-1A, and L-1B visa holders have you sponsored for employment-based legal permanent residency?
b. How many such applications are pending?
c. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many of your H-1B, L-1A, and L-1B employees have received employment-based green cards?

7.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many employees have you terminated outside the U.S.?
b. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many employees have you terminated in the U.S.?
c. How many of these employees were U.S. citizens?
d. Did H-1B visa holders replace or take over the job responsibilities of any of these terminated employees?
e. Would you support legislation prohibiting all employers from displacing an American worker with a H-1B visa holder? Please explain.

8.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many of your H-1B and L-1 employees have you contracted to other companies?
b. How many such employees have you contracted on a full-time basis?
c. For each of the last five fiscal years, please provide a list of the companies to whom you have contracted your H-1B or L-1 employees and how many H-1B and L-1 employees you have contracted to each of these companies.
d. Have any employees of companies to whom you have contracted your H-1B or L-1 employees been displaced by these employees?
e. How do you determine whether you are involved in secondary displacement, i.e. your H-1B or L-1 employees are displacing employees of a contractor company?
f. Would you support legislation prohibiting all employers from engaging in secondary displacement?

9.
a. What positions do your current H-1B employees fill?
b. How many of your current H-1B employees received higher education degrees in the U.S.?
c. How many of your current H-1B employees entered the U.S. for the purpose of working for your company?
d. What is the average age of your current H-1B employees?
e. What is the average level of experience of your current H-1B employees?
f. What is the average length of stay in the U.S. of your current H-1B employees?
g. How many of your current H-1B employees are skill level one, two, three, and four?
h. What are the mean, median, highest, and lowest salaries of your current H-1B employees?
i. What are the mean, median, highest, and lowest salaries of your company’s U.S. citizen employees who are situated similarly to your H-1B employees?

10.
a. What positions do your current L-1A and L-1B employees fill?
b. What is the average age of your current L-1A and L-1B employees?
c. What is the average level of experience of your current L-1A and L-1B employees?
d. What is the average length of stay in the U.S. of your current L-1A and L-1B employees?
e. What are the mean, median, highest, and lowest salaries of your current L-1A and L-1B employees?
f. What are the mean, median, highest, and lowest salaries of your company’s U.S. citizen employees who are situated similarly to your L-1A and L-1B employees?

11.
a. Have you received any complaints from your H-1B and/or L-1 employees about unfair hiring practices, wages, or work conditions? If so, please provide details.
b. Have you received any complaints from your American employees about your company’s use of the H-1B or L-1 visa programs? If so, please provide details.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,
Richard J. Durbin
U.S. Senator

Charles E. Grassley
U.S. Senator

More: http://durbin.senate.gov/showRelease.cfm?releaseId=2953...

Look Into Their Eyes
By: Fast Company
These people lost high-tech jobs to low-wage countries. Try telling them that offshoring is a good thing in the long run.


Kyle Bonds
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

Bonds, 44, was a contractor at IBM when he heard rumors of work moving abroad. Figuring his job could be next, he took a lower-paying but more secure post elsewhere.

"If I had stayed, you would be talking to a truck driver with a waitress wife."

Myra Bronstein
Mercer Island, Washington

Bronstein, a software engineer, says she had to train her offshore replacements herself or risk losing her severance package and unemployment eligibility.

"My industry just crashed and burned. I think it's shortsighted to try and get another job in this field."

Charles Buhrmann
Greenville, Texas

Before his position went to Canada, Buhrmann was a contractor for an insurance company's policy management system. Now he designs Web sites part-time for $8.50 an hour.

"If they're going to offer a job overseas for half the pay, why not offer it to the person here?"

Melissa Charters
Los Angeles, California

Charters had 15 years of experience in IT when her job as a system security administrator was outsourced, then offshored to India. She's becoming a home-economics teacher.

"How can our country's information stay secure when it's all being done over there?"

Lidia Estes
Bedford, Texas

Estes, 55, learned her job managing programmers with Computer Horizons was going to be offshored in late 2002. Now, the woman who has worked in IT since she was 19 sells Mary Kay Cosmetics.

"I don't know what to do. This has been my whole life."

Linda Evans
Matthews, North Carolina

In 2002, Evans's programmer husband was laid off and forced to train his Indian replacements. A new employer threatened to fire him after he was interviewed by a local paper.

"We never feel safe. When he gets called in for review, he thinks, 'This is it--it's all over today.' "

James Fusco
East Brunswick, New Jersey

Since IBM sent his work to Canada, Fusco has a new job as a systems analyst--at less pay. He has joined a lawsuit seeking retraining for software workers.

"The most important thing I've lost is an intangible. It's the loss of a secure feeling, because I really lost a career."

Michael Gist
Fort Worth, Texas

For Gist, 41, a software engineer who was replaced by a temporary worker who later went back to India, losing his job meant more than losing income. Although he now runs a home-furnishings store, he's lost his passion.

"I just love writing code. I'm a computer geek inside and out."

Corey Goode
Dallas, Texas

Goode, 34, had a contract job with Microsoft to support its call centers. It included secretly setting up user accounts for workers in Bangalore who'd replace domestic employees. Just before his first child was born, he says his own job moved to India.

"Globalization is here to stay, but we need to ease the growing pains."

Read over the pages and pages of people who have lost their jobs.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/81/offshore_profile...

Nielsen layoffs, tax breaks anger Oldsmar officials (TATA)

Published Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:39 PM

OLDSMAR — City Council members expressed outrage Tuesday over the Nielsen Co.'s plans to eliminate 110 positions at their Oldsmar operation after accepting government money to create jobs.

"To think they have the gall to take taxpayers' money and then lay people off!" said council member Suzanne Vale. "I am so upset."

"It's just incomprehensible to me," agreed council member Janice Miller.

They were responding to news that Nielsen is outsourcing work to India-based Tata Consultancy Services after receiving at least $3.1-million in state and local subsidies mainly to create jobs in Oldsmar.

Tata, one of the world's largest providers of consulting and outsourcing services, has brought in its own workers from India.


And Nielsen, formerly known as Nielsen Media Research, says they have plans to restructure further.

The topic was raised by City Council members at the end of their regular Tuesday meeting.

Some members urged their colleagues to stay calm. Mayor Jim Ronecker reminded the council that outsourcing is a national trend.

"We can't tell them how to run their business," he said.

"No, but we can call a thief a thief when they take the taxpayers' money," said council member Greg Rublee.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/article458509.ece

Pfizer Accused of Using U.S. Workers to Train Foreign Replacements

Pfizer's outsourcing contract with Infosys Technologies and Satyam Computer Services means job losses for IT workers in Connecticut. Many U.S.-based contractors are complaining that they are being asked to train H-1B workers who will soon replace them.

Pfizer is taking flak for what detractors charge is a plan to use U.S. workers to train the foreign contractors that will replace them during a years-long outsourcing project.

Contractors in the company's Groton and New London, Conn., R&D facilities—many of whom are either former full-time staffers or replaced Connecticut-based staff—are complaining that foreign workers on H-1B visas are coming in to be trained on the company's systems, according to local newspaper The Day.


http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Pfizer-Accused-of-Using-US-Workers-to-Train-Foreign-Replacements/

Sara Lee cutting 700 jobs in outsourcing move

8:39 a.m. EST Dec. 11, 2008

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- Sara Lee Corp. (SLE:Sara Lee Corporation SLE 9.33, +0.30, +3.3%) on Thursday said it will reduce its work force by 700 jobs as part of plan to cut costs by up to $250 million. The Downers Grove, Ill. cake maker said it'll outsource part of its North American and European transaction processing and applications development operations. At the end of fiscal year 2008, Sara Lee listed about 44,000 employees worldwide.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/sara-lee-cutting-700-jobs/story.aspx?guid=%7B90BB1D72-C479-4F52-B5CF-267120869FB0%7D&dist=msr_9

Keep in mind....that's only a sampling. If you're in the tech field and are lucky enough to have a job....you can't jeopardize it.





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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #39
69. Dead on...
And apparently we are the minority.. No "support" for us.

But by god, we will use what you create to criticize you...


Ok, I'm just being cynical. I apologize to all.

Peace,
MZr7
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. I Agree....
I stand by those hurt by job loss (union or not regardless of job sector).
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
40. You have to bring in the union or form it yourself.
When I had a business one of my employees confronted me about not having a union. I had to explain to the little dear, that I was the management and it was up to her to organize her fellow workers to get a union in. I was not against it since I paid a little better than union wages anyway, although I couldn't get a health plan for them. Having a union would have made that a possibility. So if you want a union go for it. I don't know if your employer will like the idea but they might.
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Mike 03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
41. Good Question. I have no idea how it happens that some occupations become unionized and others
don't.

1. My first jobs in the film industry were not only non-union, but they paid nothing. I was so grateful to do the work that I didn't care.

2. Then I wrote just on spec and had day jobs like working in the auto insurance industry or as a temp, or as production assistant on films, and that was not union work. I just barely survived.

3. Then, writing, and joining a guild, which was a good thing, but I just had to do it. It was not like I could "decide" whether to join or not, because you just have to join an entertainment guild at some point, if you act in a motion picture, write a motion picture, or produce a motion picture.

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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
43. As has been said, you don't 'get' one, you form one.
Happily, mine was handed to me by the folks who had fought the fight ywo generations before me.
It's the first thing workers need and the last thing management wants.
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Mike 03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
45. I have no clue how it works. I can tell you I have been through "strikes" in which I had no clue
what the issues involved were.

There are also unions in Casinos in Las Vegas.

In fact, it would be fascinating to have a list of unions. I only know of a few:

Union of Auto Workers
Writers Guild of America
Actors Guild
Casino-related unions.

I think grocery checkers have a union too, but I'm not sure.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. So do teachers and most other school employees,fire fighters,
police,city and state workers,federal workers,electricians,plumbers and carpenters.
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Mike 03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
57. Thank you, that info helps a lot.
I know I don't know as much as I should about unions. It is an area of ignorance for me.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
55. So fucking start organizing
What, do you think any union sprung into existence full-blown and ready to go for manufacturing workers? They had to be wrested by force from the capitalist class. They had to be organized on the ground and in bloody struggle. You want a union? Fucking MAKE one. Stop your fucking belly-aching and make one. It's what our great grandfather and grandfathers did.

By the way, the question on unionizing or otherwise organizing the white and pink collar workers is not a new one. It is perhaps best theorized by the Italian marxists theorists who broke from the traditional communist party and trade union structures during the 1970's. You probably have a lot of reading in labor organization and theory to do, so it's best you get started.
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Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
73. I'm a software developer and I was in a union
If all goes well I'll be Union again in a few months. I worked most of my IT career as union. I left that company and worked a non union job at an insurance comapany. I quit after 6 months now I'm back at my old company contracting till I can get hired back on perm. As soon as that happens I'm joining the union.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #73
139. Thanks for the insight. Hey OP: Here's the one person who can probably best help you.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #139
142. Are the Teamsters or UAW looking for someone to develop software?
I would apply for that position in a heart beat!

From what I have seen in my area, they only deal with consulting companies and there isn't one that I know of that is under Union representation.

If you know of open positions please feel free to PM me or post it in the thread so others like myself can apply.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
75. Many responses but nobody has really addressed my questions....
Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 08:03 PM by MazeRat7
I've heard I should "organize one myself". Good point. Not the question.
I heard that unions just don't materialize... well true, but I never expected that.
I've heard that somehow my working conditions don't compare to the 1900's so I have no clue what I'm talking about... Ummm... I dont think my industry was around then, can we be a bit more "current" with our analogies.

What I have not heard is:
1) Why is there not a union for software developers.
2) Should there be unions for every occupation (only one response said anything about this).
3) If not then explain why unions aren't special interest groups for a specific trade vs for the generic "worker". (none have addressed this)

BTW if your answer to #3 is... "well they have not organized"... then what you are saying is "yes, unions are special interest groups".


Peace,
MZr7





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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Becuase they will just outsource your work if you form a Union
The only industries that have Unions are old ones.

No entrepreneur wants to hire Union workers because it is an increased liability and risk to the business, so newer industries don't have organized labor. What has changed in the past 50 years is globalization.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. "Becuase they will just outsource your work if you form a Union"
Thank you for your sensible and accurate response.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. Yes, exactly.
They dont need "me". Doesn't matter what talent, experience, or education I bring to the table, there are others in the market that can bring the same (or better) skills to the table for less. And less OPEX is what makes a company profitable.

There is no way there will ever be a "software engineers" union, that is just jacked-up from an industry perspective. After all we don't really need one because we have spent years negotiating for ourselves, risky as that is right now.


Peace,
MZr7

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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #81
85. Your industry is just easier to oursource too
If you are at a factory and have a strike, it costs money to move the capital to another location and you it could be difficult to find local qualified replacements.

With software and many other services like banking, you can perform from anywhere in the world with the internet at little additional costs.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #85
92. Not exactly true... but mostly correct.
For software there is "tribal knowledge". Things that only the "culture" knows. (culture being the few that actually control direction and aspect of a product). What breaks most companies when they try to ship software development overseas, is failing to quantify their "culture". (doubt that made any sense to someone not in my field - sorry)

That being said, moving a manufacturing plant is radically different. But it has been done. Look at Intel and AMD just to mention two specifically in my my industry. There are dozens of other examples of more pedestrian factories that have been moved as well.



Peace,
MZr7
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. So your point for the whole OP was to point out that unions
are "special interest groups"?
No one was comparing the present to "the 1900's" merely pointing out that union organizing was done under conditions much tougher than those of today.
Unions are "special interest groups", they are groups of people organized by profession to negotiate contracts with the management of the companies they work for.

Why would any of us know why there is no union for software developers? Ask your fellow software developers.
What was the point of this thread?Is your argument that there should be no unions because not everybody is unionized?
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #75
144. Some, hopefully, pretty solid answers.
1) No idea whether there is or not, but many unions organize outside their speciality. The UAW organizes editors and teaching assistants as well as auto workers. CWA organizes state workers as well as communications workers. Etc.

2) All workers should be organized by the union of their choice. Everyone does not need to have a separate occupation. Anyone who is not management has a right to organize. Who is "management" is a question that conservatives have used to destroy labor for the past 8 years. They have looked for any excuse to disqualify groups from the right to unionize. Nurses have been deemed to be "supervisors" if they sign other nurses paperwork (so, if you force all your workers to sign one another's paperwork, suddenly no one is a worker.) If you work for the government, your right to unionize is solid, unless you live in a 'right to work state', which is one of those Orwellian Right Wing concepts. If you work in the private sector, your right to unionize is decided by the National Labor Relations Board. Under Bush, it reversed former workers rights to have unions including: college instructors currently enrolled in graduate courses, hospital interns, nurses, etc.

3) Why isn't there "One Big Union"? There was. It was called the IWW or the Wobblies. In fact, the IWW still exists (it organized Starbucks employees in NYC recently.) It organizes all workers into one union with separate sectors for separate industries. It's important to learn about how difference workplaces function in order to best serve workers (baristas are more likely able to help waiters figure out strike tactics than steel workers or teachers, etc.) But of course the Wobblies attempted to, you know, unite the working class of the WORLD, instead of the nation. Simply put, unions organized for broad workers power were crushed and replaced with the AFL-CIO who use a business, capitalism-friendly, more 'trade protectionist' model. More radical unions are red-baited and destroyed. I mean, imagine if software workers in Asia and the US formed a union together... Surely, your bosses don't want that.

Basically, unions that are not "special interest groups" but rather "for all workers" are considered socialist and are not likely to be recognized by the Democratic or Republican parties. I'd argue that they aren't "special interest groups" for specific job titles and industries, because, as I pointed out, any worker can try to organize with any union who will have them. So in that way, unions are "for the worker" in general. If the workers as a whole are a "special interest" that's kind of like saying "homeowners" are a special interest. Kind of pushes the envelope of specialness.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #75
182. There is no "they" - there is only you.
You're questions are invalid, I think that's what we're trying to tell you.

The only reason there is an auto-workers union is because the auto-workers themselves organized. Now, if you somehow blame autoworkers for not paying attention to YOUR lack of a union rather than focusing on their own battles, that would seem a little ridiculous.

You're questions and comments seem to imply that you envision a "Union, Inc." organization that existed first, and then got some people to want to sign up. That's not how unions come into existence.

So, in answer to your questions specific unions are for specific interests, yes - in that the auto workers, who organized the auto-workers union, were concerned about auto workers jobs - not engineers.

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Azlady Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
79. Recommend & Kick to the Greatest Page
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
86. As a prof in the University of Wisconsin system, I'm forbidden by state law
from joining a union. Were this not the case I'd sign up in a heartbeat.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
88. Because for years you scoffed at unions
And I mean "you" in a general sense. Hi-tech workers used to sneer at unions. They didn't need any stinkin' unions. They thought they were above all that. They thought they were so important that the companies had to shovel money at them endlessly. They thought unions were for suckers. I've been trying to tell software designers for years that they should unionize - but they kept telling me they were professionals, not idiots like the blue-collar workers.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. Really? I would be interested in hearing more on this...
Most of the developers I know have a pretty different take on all this. Granted I've only been in the industry for about 25 years, so who knows.. maybe I missed something. *wink.

Peace,
MZr7
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #94
145. People are thinking in terms of "The WIRED mag, libertarian set"
Libertarianism was definitely a late 90s, dot.com trend.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #94
186. What more do you want to hear?
Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 11:21 AM by nichomachus
I've been involved with software -- and hardware -- folks for over 35 years. In the early days, they were the high priesthood of the IT world (they didn't call it that back then) and they were too important to deal with mere mortals.

And the other poster is right -- in they '90s, they were all going to be billionaires tomorrow, and Social Security, pensions, and unions were for suckers.

I had one close friend who was the chief software engineer on a very well-known product at the time. He was working 18-hour days for months. I told him he was crazy because he was going to burn himself out and the company would let him. And then, they'd just toss him aside. He did and they did -- and he ended up just leaving the field entirely after he burned out.

Too bad, because he was a brilliant guy.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #88
96. The other half of that is the relative newness of the field...
Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 09:21 PM by JHB
...so that there was a large cadre of kids getting paid big bucks right out of college, when they had the excitement of pioneering a whole new field, were young enough to work three days straight with maybe a few catnaps and a case of Jolt, and liked to be free to bounce from place to place since someone was always hiring. And I don't know if the the field actually did draw more anti-union Libertarians than any other place, but the ones who were there certainly felt free to be mouthy about it.

With conditions like that, who needs a union? They could (and did) scoff at the very notion.

In time, the industry matured (as well as a good chunk of the work force), now that old structure pays off for the companies, but leaves the workers exactly where you are.

So you have your answer to Point 1. You actually did have it higher in the thread, but apparently it was phrased a little too rudely.

As for the rest of your complaints, they stem from the structural changes to both the economy and government that were ushered in by Reagan and advanced by "pro-business" politicians (Democrats as well as Republicans). Those won't get fixed until a lot of Free Marketeer changes are reversed, and unions (both existing ones and any new ones that might organize, hint) will be needed to help bring that about.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #88
110. Exactly.
When you spend decades denigrating Labor and the work of the blue-collar classes then don't be shocked to find you don't have a union. You bought into the self-sufficiency Bootstrap Bullshit, so deal with it.

And by "you" I mean the industry, not you personally. Presumably you'd not be on DU if such views were your own. :hi:
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
90. Every American needs a union, here's why.
To lobby our Congresscritters.

They work for whoever pays them to take the office. That's the lobbyists. Since our Representatives don't work for us we all need a lobbyist. We all need a union to lobby the Congresscritter.

We could just pay for our representatives to run ourselves, but I don't think that will ever happen. So, in the mean time, we all need a union.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
91. you get one whenever you wish to start one...go for it. organize...good luck.
:hi:
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JJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
99. Start one.
Unions are democratic (small d) institutions.
Start your own union, or find a related union and see about organizing your workplace.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
102. I'm a clerical worker
we don't have a union either. I suspect neither your collegues nor mine will "get" one, until we do the work to organize. Like you, I'm just too busy just trying to stay alive - and employed - to do the work of organizing, or to take the risks.

Rather than envy those who are still protected by unions, I choose to be grateful for the worker's rights and privileges the first union organizers fought (and bled, and died) for and won - the eight hour day, the paid breaks, the forty hour work week, the right to be treated like a human being and not like a replaceable part in the profit engine.

Just an honest answer...

Peace
varelse
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
104. Anyone who is not top management can unionize
Go for it.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. "Leftofthedial" summed it up perfectly....
Quote:

"organize one
but the capitalist pricks who own the software industry will just fire you and hire one of the tens of millions of laid-off technologists currently unemployed."


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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. If it is worth having, it is worth fighting for.
Look at the horrible strikes we had in the 30s.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #107
121. Technology is a bit different than in the 30's.
Work can be sent overseas quite easily. A conference call is all it takes.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #121
146. And.... immigrants were used for union-busting on US soil.
You simply don't have a case for not unionizing. Potential scabs are everywhere. Your case just isn't that special. Factories can be built pretty easily in Asia and Mexico as well. And cheap labor is imported for other industries. In fact, much of the imported 'cheap labor' is part of the unionizing.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #121
218. That really shouldn't matter. One of the paradoxes of unionization in the traditional industries...
is that it occurred during the depression when scads of people were unemployed and would be willing to take almost any rate of pay. There is a lot more going on than just how easily replaceable a worker is.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #106
111. Where I come from, the op's kind of rhetorical question is called whining. n/t
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #111
119. Then I presume that everyone that loses their job
And doesn't belong to a union is a "whiner?"

Sorry, but I've never considered anyone worried about losing their job a "whiner."
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #119
147. They are if they don't organize and complain about unions.
I lost my job fighting for the right to unionize for myself and others. Everyone who tries to unionize paves the way for others. If you don't take up that fight, then you don't have anyone to blame but yourself.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #147
152. You said you lost your job fighting....
I have kids to feed as well as one that's chronically ill. I cannot afford to lose the job that I currently have.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #119
173. No, anyone who complains about their working conditions
and complains that others haven't unionized him, while simultaneously disclaiming any ability to help in that regard is a whiner.

His implication is "Where's my bailout? No one's coming to my rescue!" Which is accurate... he and his peers are not even coming to their own rescue.

If he wants to form a union, I'm happy to help. If he wants to whine that I haven't done it for him, I'm not.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
109. You're in an industry which devalues labor.
Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 10:05 PM by lumberjack_jeff
Pick better next time. </flippant>.

I've worked in tech, and everyone is proud of how many hours they work and how little of a real life they have. They don't mind being responsible to purchase the training that the company needs (sharpen your saw!) and they ALL identify with the boss and anticipate owning their own tech startup someday. Further, they are actively contemptuous of those who work *only* 50 or 60 hours a week. They can't even be goaded into collective action when the boss brings in H1B visa folks to do their jobs (it wasn't *my* job that was outsourced, just those slacker family types) or sends the tasks offshore.

If there's a case study for why businesses love libertarians, you're living it.

Don't ask us to fix your problem. You have two hind feet, use them. The idea might offend your peers' sensitivities because "union" carries such pedestrian, menial connotations.

My grandfather was a Molly McGuire. Those workers who survived the killer conditions of the mines were murdered by pinkerton cops in the employ of the owners. No one gave them a union - they took it.

Watch Matewan.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #109
130. How insulting...
What job do you perform? I will tell you how poor of a job your industry has done.

PICK BETTER NEXT TIME???

Since you are not a fan of any form of computer based technology... Turn off the computer you posted with, cut up your credit cards, stand in line at the bank from now on, cut your cable tv line, and throw out any TV that is not a CRT, turn off your cell phone, start driving a car that has no solid state components that are micro-processor driven (that puts you in a circa 1972 vehicle at best), brush up on your long devision- because calculators are out, find a microwave that uses one of those egg-timer knobs or use the oven and stove, don't even think about checking out with a barcode scanner and hope to got the cashier has fast fingers.

No, the tech industry does not devalue the laborer... it is people like you that use the working conditions from a time before you existed to justify your value. I'm not going to come on here and belittle your line of work, because it would insult too many decent hard working people that I can relate with, but I will say that I have seen sharper bowling balls than you.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #130
180. Bla bla bla... don't complain about a farmer with your mouth full. I get it.
I did tech for 20 years. If you don't like the working conditions, change them or find a new gig. I did the latter, because techies don't really want the former.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #180
199. Thanks so much!
The world is now a better place because you gave up so much to benefit the well being of others. You were a visionary that started something new!

...

Oh wait, you just talk like you are an expert on the subject. You never tried to actually push for change and organization that you were a member of. You left an unorganized group and joined one where the hard part was already done. Now you are on here throwing stones at a group you left and are blaming the individuals for not organizing themselves because they are too lazy.

You join an already winning team and have all the answers to how it became a winner. How everyone should fight the good fight. I guess paying a few dues makes anyone an expert. There are a lot of football experts come Monday morning.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #199
203. If you work for Microsoft (for instance) you work for a business whose CEO...
Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 01:04 PM by lumberjack_jeff
... spends a week each year lobbying congress to get more H1-b visas so that they can hire cheaper people to take your job. Yet the microserfs continue to diligently man their keyboards in the interim.

In my experience, Ballmer's lobbying (among others) causes younger techies to say "Great, we need to keep these no-load 50-hour a week slackers on their toes!", and the older techies to say "Oh shit, how am I going to keep this job? My kids want to see me occasionally, but they need my paycheck more. I guess I'll have to just work harder. Maybe my family won't miss me if I work Sundays too."

Ballmers lobbying causes raised eyebrows around the water cooler, but not much more. I'm not going to summon any more outrage for the situation than you will, but even those who did sign onto a union in full maturity are doing more by continuing the work than those like you and the OP who do nothing but whine impotently.

He won't "get a 'Union'" for Christmas.

The useful life of a tech worker is 20 years. Absent organization, that's life. Just like the coal miner, when you're skills are used up, there's a nearly infinite worldwide pool of replacements. The tech world didn't miss me when I began doing useful things instead.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #130
184. He's pretty much right, though
I love computers and all technology, and I worked in the sector for six years.

The industry still devalues labor. Big time. The tech sector is leading the way in outsourcing or near-sourcing jobs so that they don't have to pay good benefits and salaries. Everything he said above is essentially true too, regardless of whether you like the way it was said or not.

I don't have to "turn off my computer" in order to honestly acknowledge where the industry is falling short.


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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
114. Even us strippers have a union.
Although it's almost impossible for such a union to function effectively in today's climate, the ladies in San Fran formed the EDA over ten years ago. It thrives in Canada.

We need it as much, if not more, than most. But since, as a famous lady comic who was just interviewed for a national magazine put it, 'the industry should die"; no one even bothers with us any more.

But yes, every profession should have a union.
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1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #114
120. and you cannot cross a stripper picket line. because if you "cross the line with a stripper"...
a couple of big bouncers grab you and toss you out.

ummm... or so i've heard...

:-)
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
117. Then start one, sweetie! :)
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
125. A Union would be great, but it's not going to happen.
I've been in this field for 20 years. The field was started by a hobbyist culture that blossomed too rapidly for there to be any control or organization. The simple fact that the technology in this field is changing at an exponential rate, driving it's cut-throat nature, is beyond the conception to anyone not in the industry.

What other industry does the entire foundation completely change every 5 years? We've gone from 4-bit, 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit to multi-core 64-bit architectures in about 30 years. To put that into perspective for those that do not understand how computers actually work, and do not understand the job we actually do... but love to think our jobs are easy because we sit in the same chair from 6AM to 3AM the next day because a deadline needs to be met!

An 4-bit computer in 1970 could hold a value between 0 and 15. Think of this as one of those brick style calculators of the 70's. The software allowed mathematical computation between accumulators strung across 4-4bit memory locations... and it was amazing!

Currently, a single 64-bit location can hold a value between 0 and 18,446,744,073,709,551,615.

Within the next 5 years, the normal processor will be 128-bits, and a single location will be able to hold a value between 0 and 340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,455.

We've gone from supporting an Internet(Arpanet) that was limited to US Government, Research and Educational use only, having thousands of users, to supporting 1.5 Billion users world wide and every form of transaction known to mankind. We have leaped from binary content converted in to a 7-bit textual representation to streaming Full-HD video and audio content to a laptop while you drink your Starbucks latte waiting for your plane to board.

The industry in itself is demanding, and there is always going to be the pressure to excel or be replaced by a recent graduate or import, that doesn't have those damned "family-constraints" that you have! There is always going to be those individuals that believe that they are some new form of software rock star, that learned the latest programming language well and can out perform any of us seasoned folks... and there will always be some no talent CIO that will hire the individual because he doesn't understand what we do.

What other industries have had this type of rapid growth? None. If the Automotive industry had to keep the same pace, we would have gone from driving bicycles in the 70's to driving our new Ford to Pluto in 7 seconds. And they certainly would be a lot safer! You could upgrade your car to automatically stop people from throwing boulders at your windshield... and the price of the car would have gone from $2500 in 1970 to around $100 now. Your Pinto had 2-wheel drive in '75? wow, now you can get 340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,455-wheel drive.. and it travels faster than light!

Here is a better thought. Write code that references "black-objects" that is entirely obfuscated from the company your are working for. Your code has a built-in time bomb, causing it to fail if you lose your job. Yes, that is unethical to cause something to just stop working... kinda like a union strike to benefit the workers, right?

For my entire life I have stood behind the unions of this nation, joined when the job allowed me too. It makes me sick to see the people on this thread putting people in my field down and stereotyping all of us as horn-rimmed, Klingon-speaking nerds that are self-absorbed in our own little lonely worlds. I don't come on here and say auto workers are fat, dirty and lazy, and push brooms for 60-bucks an hour... I know better! They work a hard job and earn their money.

To all those people that have come on here stating, "just start a union," I say... Have you ever tried to form a Union? Or do you just reap the benefits from those of yester-year, and claim that you actually had something to do with it? I don't know of any major unions that have formed in this country from a grass-roots effort (without the help of another larger Union), in the past 30 years, do you? Do you think the UAW could have formed in today's condition of the auto manufacturing market? Didn't think so. SW Dev is in the exact same shape as that market except for one thing... We don't require billion dollar factories and equipment to be moved; our tools and work can be moved to India in a matter of seconds.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. Damn......Well Said, Chrome!
Deserves a thread of it's own! :thumbsup:
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #125
128. Well said old dog...
Edited on Thu Dec-11-08 11:08 PM by MazeRat7
Something tells me we are of the same basic age and experience. I had not considered bringing the allegorical equivalent of Moore's Law in this post for software engineering, but I like it. What would our world be like today if every industry showed the same exponential growth and achievement that has been demanded from us for all these years?

Thanks for your well reasoned and factual post. It was a pleasure to read.

Peace,
MZr7


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Azlady Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #125
129. Man oh Man Chrome - Thank you
Thank you! This deserves best post of the year! Thanks man for standing up for us IT people! THANK YOU!!!!

:fistbump: :fistbump: :fistbump: :fistbump: :fistbump:
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #125
150. I repeat. I lost my job fighting to keep the right to organize. Others have lost more.
As an academic in a field where only 20% of people only get jobs, I can be replaced by someone standing in line quicker than an upload. With a union contract, I made 20K a year. When we had the right to unionize taken from us, I made $8K a year without benefits at a university that charges close to $50K tuition a year where 82% of the courses are taught by contingent labor that is pretty much either independently wealthy or on the verge of homelessness.

After 6 months on a picket line in winter, I have earned the right to tell you that you aren't special. Your field isn't too unique to organize. (If you want to win, you'd do better organizing with a radical international union though, in my opinion.)
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #150
161. I like the idea...
of a "radical international union" but that will never happen. India is pushing hard to have jobs offshored. Companies are pushing congress to allow more cheap labor in via the H-1B program. There is no cap or protections on the transfer of low wage workers to replace US workers via the L-1 program.

The best bet would be to get IT workers under a larger union. If all the entities under the UAW utilized unionized consulting companies, network engineers and software developers, that union would be enormous and have a lot of muscle over companies like Cisco, Google and Microsoft. It would grow the entire union as a whole. I'd love the UAW to have a threat over wall street and the financial sector.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
131. Lord Help Our Ecomony If Every Occupation Had A Union.
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1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-11-08 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. then we would be called "france"... n/t.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #132
148. Which just surpassed England to be the #2 economic power
in Europe.

Just behind heavily unionized Germany.


Hmmm. Those horrible unions, making their respective countries' economies stronger.
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1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #148
165. which is equivalent to being the world's tallest midget...
what is your point?

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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #165
196. Do some research.
France has the world's sixth or seventh largest economy, depending of whose numbers you use.

World's Tallest MIdget.


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WhollyHeretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #196
202. and Germany is number 3.
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Fla Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #196
209. And that's not too shabby considering France's population is 65.9 million compared
to 305.9 million in the USA. Their geographical size is about the size of Texas and they don't have the mineral resources of the U.S.
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
133. When you organize
Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 12:21 AM by Oak2004
Unions aren't granted to you from the outside. You have to fight for them, and sacrifice for them.

And if work is "globalized", so too must be unions.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #133
135. Remind me...
Which Union did you assist in starting? And in this state of economic times? Oh yeah, thought so...
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #135
138. Early 80s, and I attempted with another driver to bring the UAW in to organize the taxi company
I worked for.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #138
141. Were you successful?
You said "attempted."

Judging by all of the "claiming-to-be" Union workers on here, that hate those of us that work in a tech-related field... highly doubtful that any of those workers would stand a line with the like of my peers, right?

Luckily for you, you had the opportunity to ride on the coat-tails of a very successful and established Union force, the UAW... The reason I specifically asked for what Union did you "start" was because this industry would have to do it completely on its own, with no outside help such as you were seeking. Now I ask.. were you successful?
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #141
151. I have stood on picket lines with:
graduate workers, taxi drivers, professors, librarians, steel workers, auto workers, writers, hotel workers, public school teachers... all at the same time. Yeah, I'd stand with you.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #151
154. Good to know...
I come from a strong Union family. I have in the past, and would in the future... stand with you.
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Oak2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #141
164. No you wouldn't -- any one of a number of established unions would be willing to organize tech
workers. The CWA and the UE come to mind as obvious unions to approach.

And as I mentioned before, we didn't succeed, but that doesn't mean that unions suck.

A lot of organizing efforts don't succeed, but that's true with the rest of life as well. The only guarantee is that if you make no effort whatsoever, you're certain to fail.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
149. Unions are started by workers
Just a hint :)
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #149
153. Duly Noted...
However, I'm one of the last American workers left in my company.....the H-1B's aren't interested in unions.
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1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
155. you must do the work to start your own. but don't take any crap from any asshole that never did...
those that got "grandfathered" into a union by the struggles of their forefathers are all so smug about unions.

all so willing to tell you about how "you" must struggle to start up a union.

when all they ever did is to show up after that fact and pay some dues and get all of the benefits. all of those union "tough guys."



yeah, you go fight the good fight they never did. the fight they never had to. write us a blog or something about YOUR struggles.

huzzah!


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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #155
158. Good Points.
I'd like to know how many posters here actually "started up a union on their own" or got "grandfathered" into one.

Again, Good points.
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Fading Captain Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
156. Get off your ass and organize one.
And be ready to get a bloody nose from a company goon.

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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #156
159. If you don't mind my asking.....
What union did you start/organize on your own?
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Fading Captain Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #159
160. I never have. But I know some who have
when people like the OP question unions and use the word workers in quotes, I have a pretty good idea where they are coming from.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #160
162. and when those that are blind, lead...
no body knows where anyone is going. Thanks for being honest in your naivety on the subject.
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Fading Captain Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #162
198. I grew up on picket lines, coolio
I work in a small business. My dad was a union organizer and union steward ...

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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #198
200. So did I... pimpjuice
Steel workers union through the 70's and 80's
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #159
163. No one starts a union "on their own" but you can be the first to risk your job discussing it with
your fellow employees.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
166. If pilots can have a union
and baseball players, then so can you.

you organize. the law allows it.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
167. My idea for an IT Union for contingent labor
Most new hires in the IT world are acquired through project funding and thus tend to be contingent labor. The main problem is the contractor market in many places is sewn up by recruiting companies offering H1B workers. Company policy dictates we can't hire independent contractors but instead must go through agencies so this favors the H1B worker.

A viable IT Union would be one that can compete with these H1B body shops and provide guaranteed reliable, competent workers. Project-based work requires people with the necessary tool sets - on the job training won't cut it. An IT union could provide the necessary training to workers "on the bench" so they can always have a pool of talent ready when needed. This would be a great relief to hiring managers and technical leads because H1B's are notorious for padding resumes with bull shit and we waste too much time screening them out in technical interviews.

These greedy H1B body shops run a great scam because they charge between 50-100% more than an FTE's salary and pocket the huge profit margins. A well-run union could provide business with a great service at lower costs and keep American workers both employable and employed.



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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
170. They should, but where do you think unions come from?
People from the outside don't give people unions. Workers unionize. There's no other way for it to happen. It has nothing to do with one type of work being special. It's just that those workers unionized.
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ogneopasno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
172. Anyone who thinks the union is going to hand them stuff on a silver platter doesn't deserve one.
And has no idea what a union is all about. Building a union is work. It's fucking hard work. You lose friends. You lose free time. It's break-your-marriage, lose-your-job-and-home work. SOME PEOPLE ARE KILLED BECAUSE THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR A UNION. But people do it -- THEY STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES -- because they KNOW it is the right thing to do, that they are worth more, and that it's worth fighting for. I'll care about you as soon as you show me you care about yourself.
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bullwinkle428 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
175. Workers at the huge Smithfield plant in N.C. JUST VOTED to join the UFCW yestderday!
:applause:

(Note that North Carolina is still part of "the South", so the old excuse about "everyone in the South hates unions" won't fly anymore!)
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
178. Readers digest version.
Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 10:56 AM by lumberjack_jeff
Q: When do I get a "Union"?
A: Never. It's impossible. Sorry.
... Or at least until you stop visualizing the word "union" in quotes, or wondering when you're going to "get" one. But maybe I'm pessimistic, there's always Santa.

The basis of your question frankly offends me.

a) your industry doesn't have a union because the workers in your industry don't demand one. "It's impossible"
b) the workers in other industries have unions because they (or their forebears) did. For them, it wasn't impossible.
c) you're not the first industry to work in sweatshop conditions. See "b". Being fired wasn't their biggest fear.
d) unions ARE about the special interest of a particular profession... those professions being all those workers who can summon the collective interest to improve their conditions. That this comes as a surprise to you suggests a really bad blind spot about what unions are and where they come from.

I'm familiar with the tech business. I cut my teeth on an at&t 3b2-300 mainframe running Berkely Unix. Token ring, Arcnet, Ethernet, Novell, TCP-IP. I did it for 20 years. The technology changes but the people don't. There's always a fresh graduate equipped with Mountain Dew (or Jolt, or Rockstar now, I suppose) who thinks it's cool to actually get paid to do the stuff he would otherwise do as a hobbyist for 12 hours a day. By the time the novelty wears off and he'd like a real life, a new graduate (or H1-b visa holder) has walked in the door. The corporate culture that this creates is completely hostile toward labor, the workers involved never really realize that they ARE labor.
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ipfilter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #178
183. You summed up IT very well.
I was one of those young head strong IT workers a few short years back. For a few years I couldn't believe I was getting paid to do what was my hobby. As I stated upthread, I'm in the IAMAW union and do IT work for the Gov. When I first started I didn't care much for the union and thought it held us back. Now that I have a family and a life I couldn't be happier with my union job. My pay and benefits are negotiated every three years. I don't have to worry about sycophantic co-workers or climbing any corporate ladders. My pay has increased like compounding interest over the years and I have a pension waiting for me at the end. This is what the union does for me and it's worth every penny of dues I pay. The union has helped me achieve a comfortable middle class life that I couldn't be happier with.

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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
181. You don't "get" a Union. Its very hard, risky, time consuming battle, but----
You make Unions. They aren't just bestowed on people from on high. There isn't a Union in the software development industries because workers either haven't organized enough or their efforts have been effectively stopped. Now, I worked at HP for six years, so I get to talk about this a little bit.

HP's print division is based on Idaho - a right to work state. That also creates a problem for forming unions.

But I want to get back to the main point - you seem confused about how unions are created. There's nothing that says software developers (and, I think even more ripe for unionization are the contracted software testers) can unionize. But unions start from the bottom-up; they don't come from some top-down.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
189. Yes they should- We should all have good wages and benefits.
We should all be able to have a voice, backed up by thousands of other voices.

We should all be wanting to lift up wages and benefits and not be cheering that others be brought down to the crappiest work levels.

The Republicans want the last of the unions busted, so that no workers have a voice. No workers have any power.

We are going backwards now- not progressing forward.
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ipfilter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #189
190. We are going back to the time
of robber barons and sweat shops. Those who vote for republicans don't see that they are enabling this.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #190
193. It's not just republicans, we've been seeing it here on this board for quite a while.
People who are more interested at being resentful of union workers, preferring to drag them down rather then demand other workers be lifted up to their standards.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
192. If you want a Union, start one yourself. You have to fight for what you want or else
the fucking bastards will OWN you. Simple as that.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
194. Cause you haven't suffered enough yet to make you organize.
And, please note that states with unions pay the federal taxes for states without them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4637953

Connecticut is not a huge union state, but unions are pretty strong in New Jersey, New York, even California.

I note that Nevada is not only a gambling state with low taxes, but also with unions in the major casinos.

The southern states that pride themselves on their right-to-work laws don't carry their share of the burden. I am especially shocked by Texas. Texas is a wealthy oil-producing state. What is wrong with Texas?
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
195. Cause you haven't suffered enough to make you want to organize.
And, please note that states with unions pay the federal taxes for states without them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4637953

Connecticut is not a huge union state, but unions are pretty strong in New Jersey, New York, even California.

I note that Nevada is not only a gambling state with low taxes, but also with unions in the major casinos.

The southern states that pride themselves on their right-to-work laws don't carry their share of the burden. I am especially shocked by Texas. Texas is a wealthy oil-producing state. What is wrong with Texas?
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #195
216. HERE. HERE!!!
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #216
219. Netflix has DVDs on the union movement that will tear your heart out.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
201. kick
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Snotcicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
204. Have you sought Union Representation? There are plenty of Unions that will let you sign cards. nt
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
205. Both I and Ms. Greyhound have tried for years to do this. No support.
Too many (even a couple on this board) are doing OK and couldn't give a shit about anybody else.

I'm sure you've run into the type, the shittier the outsourced/off-shored code, the better they like it. It is job security for them. When the corporations first bought the ITAA and started producing the so-called shortage, we saw what was going to happen and began talking to our colleagues about unionizing and were consistently rebuffed for years.


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Fla Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
207. You can have a union, I'm sure the AFL-CIO or another union
would be more than happy to have all the software designers and developers organized. Do you feel you're underpaid, overworked, not appreciated, no promotions, no bonuses no raises, no benefits. If so, I'd say you'd be able to get your fellow designers/developers to sign union cards. But it has to start somewhere. How about if you touch base with a union, find out what you have to do to organize. Then talk to your fellow software professionals.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
210. May I ask why "workers" are in the snarky quotation marks? Just curious.
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4 t 4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #210
214. I hate to be mean but yes
everyone should have a Union. This thread is full of windbags. Unions are part of what made the United States Of America great. How can you be against any union in any form? A union is like a Guardian Angel. Just keep shooting yourselves in the foot and voting against your best interest. Sheep!!!
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madinmaryland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
217. Why not look into joining the Communications Workers of America.
Edited on Fri Dec-12-08 07:33 PM by madinmaryland
or an IBEW local. I know during the 80's and 90's IBEW Local 3 in NYC was doing h/w and s/w design. CWA workers also do this type of work.

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Omaha Steve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
220. Raise your hand IF you have ever been fired for ORGANIZING Mine is raised high

Most DU regulars know my story by now. Let me start with this is why we need the EFCA! I do most of the posting in the Labor Forum. A comment is below the 10 reasons for EFCA.


http://www.aflcio.org/joinaunion/voiceatwork/efca/10keyfacts.cfm

What is the Employee Free Choice Act? >> 10 Key Facts


America’s workers want to form unions. Research shows nearly 60 million would form a union tomorrow if given the chance.


Too few ever get that chance because employers routinely block their efforts to form unions—and our current legal system is too broken to stop them. As many as one-quarter of employers illegally fire workers who try to form unions.


The Employee Free Choice Act would give workers a fair chance to form unions to improve their lives by:

* Allowing them to form unions by signing cards authorizing union representation.
* Providing mediation and arbitration for first-contract disputes (PDF).
* Establishing stronger penalties for violation of employee rights when workers seek to form a union and during first-contract negotiations.



In the 110th Congress, the Employee Free Choice Act had widespread support.


More than three-quarters of Americans—77 percent—support strong laws that give employees the freedom to make their own choice about whether to have a union in their workplace without interference from management (PDF).


Allowing working people to choose for themselves whether to have a union is the key step toward rebuilding America’s middle class. Union membership brings better wages and benefits and a real voice on the job (PDF). It’s no accident that the 25-year decline in workers’ wages in our country has paralleled a 25-year slide in the size of the America’s unions.


The Employee Free Choice Act would put democracy back into the workplace. Majority sign-up would ensure the decision whether to form a union was made by majority choice, not by the employer unilaterally.


Workers can still vote under the Employee Free Choice Act. At any time, if 30 percent of the workers want an election, they can have one. And once they have a union, workers also vote to elect their union representatives.


The Employee Free Choice Act has the support of hundreds of respected organizations and individuals—major religious denominations, academics and civil and human rights groups and others.


The AFL-CIO union movement is working in many ways to restore good jobs, health care and retirement security—but passing the Employee Free Choice Act is our top priority because we cannot create balance for working people or rebuild the middle class unless workers genuinely have the freedom to form unions for a better life.


My comments: Union are not outdated. But since Reagan broke PATCO, it has been open season on Labor. The NLRB has a back log. 110 workers at CNN were fired because they belonged to a union. It's been 5 years. CNN is appealing. The workers will be waiting at least another 10 years before they get through the NLRB board AND the Court of Appeals. It has a back log because it has been short 2 of the 5 appointed chair members thanks to "W".

Employers scare, fire, arrest, and more to stop organizing in it's tracks. Look at my sig logo. Those numbers are real. Let only those that have organized throw the first stone at others. Those that have been there, won't however. I know. I've been there.

My NLRB file from 1980-1984: http://www.nlrb.gov/shared_files/Board%20Decisions/261/261-38.pdf


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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #220
222. Thank you for the great post and words of wisdom, Steve!
:thumbsup:
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Azlady Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #220
223. Thank you Steve - sure appreciate your post n/t
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #220
224. wish I could recommend a reply (nt)
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