It is clear, the Senators who have Transplant Foreign Auto makers in their States

[DainBramaged]

have put the interests of Foreign entities before American interests and the middle class, and that their tactics are clearly designed to break the UAW as a last gasp before their political dominance is ended for a generation. A final 'fuck you' to the American people. Some Governors are also involved.


Those of you who support their actions are as culpable as they are.

[LynneSin]

1. Just remember those foreign car makers are employing americans.

I still say this deal needs to go thru. I'm from a state hurt by the collapse of the automakers (Delaware has both GM and Chrysler plants in our state) but I just wish there was a way to solve this that won't affect anyone's job.

[DainBramaged]

3. At $14 an hour, who can afford their cars?

[LynneSin]

8. at $14/hour it's also better than being unemployeed

I'm not defending Shelby just hoping we can find a happy medium somewhere here

[DainBramaged]

9. So the US Domestic auto industry should go bankrupt and throw the UAW out into the streets

so the transplant workers can keep their $14 an hour jobs?

[LynneSin]

10. Do you bother reading what I posted in the message or just make assumptions from my subject line

:grr:

[DainBramaged]

11. I make NO assumptions, there is NO happy medium with Shelby and his cabal

They want to BANKRUPT the Domestic Auto industry and destroy the UAW, that is their goal, plain and simple. If it wasn't, why are they defending so strenuously the Japanese German and Korean manufacturers in their states, who offer minimal wages for difficult manufacturing jobs, most of which require highly skilled workers their states lack, and they wind up having to recruit workers from neighboring states with promises of glory and high wages, but they have no pension plan (have you ever met a worker retired form any of the Honda or Toyota factories) and their health insurance can't come close to the UAW's.

You are one of the best people I have ever met on DU. But I will not compromise my feelings about how Unions continue to be screwed over by our elected officials AFTER they use us to get elected. And we are targets yet agin. There will be no compromise. We have compromised enough.

[LynneSin]

12. Don't go assuming shit

First, I'm a strong union supporter, I was born and raised in union factories. I wasn't UAW but Steelworkers and trust me, the Steelworkers have suffered mainy of the same issues that the UAW are facing today. And I was there front line watching my stepfather's pension go to shit.

Second, I'm on your side, don't get me wrong. But what I don't want to do is jeopardize other peoples job in the process. You may hold a sense of disdained towards those who make "$14/hour" in those car factories in the south but in this economy, hell I'd take it if I needed a job.

So please, if you plan on posting the opinons of WHAT you believe others are saying then find someone else. I'm totally offended by anyone who reads more into what I have writen and assume more than what they know about me. If this country was fluxed with jobs out there for everyone perhaps I'd think differently, but in this economy I think we need to find a way to keep & enforce our unions without jeopardizing the jobs of others. Perhaps once this mess is cleaned up THEN we can focus on unionizing those jobs down south with the Japanese companies.

[DainBramaged]

14. I think I already said I don't assume anything, especially "shit".

My Mom always said, "those that yell the loudest have the most to hide'. I think this applies to Shelby and his cabal. I hold no disdain towards those workers making $14 an hour at the Transplants, new hires at the Domestics start at $14 an hour, BUT they have the protection of the Union, plain and simple, and the opportunity to participate in the pension plan, and one of the best health care plans in the country AND legitimate Workman's Compensation if injured on the job, not shown the door as happens far to often at Toyota and Honda.

The UAW has tried for TWO DECADES to Unionize the Transplants, but with the tactics of the Japanese and the cooperation of the politicians in those Right to Work states, we have failed. If Detroit is gone, then there is NO reason for these companies to EVER, EVER improve the pay and working conditions at these factories.

Unions first, period.

[LynneSin]

15. How about people first instead?

I love the unions because our family has benefitted from them. But the attitude of "My union plant is better than your non-union plant" isn't going to help those people who need JOBS.

Because ultimately whatever is decided is going to impact the lil people - union AND non-union.

[DainBramaged]

16. I stand with my Union, first, always, sorry we disagree, I mean no disrespect.

If my Father had joined the Carpenters Union (UBC) in the 50's instead of listening to his boss, he would have left my Mother (who STILL lives on her own at 92) with a Pension instead of Social Security.


Too many Union jobs have migrated to the South and then overseas in the past two decades. Te Textile workers of America can attest to that. It has to stop. Some fault can lie at the feet of UAW leadership, who are as indecisive and confused as most of our politicians (google American Axle), but we all can't live where a house costs peanuts and y'all is the language.

[LynneSin]

17. Well, you can be that way, but just remember that there are others here who feel otherwise

and trust me, pensions these days are NO guarentee. My stepfather lost his when Bethlehem Steel was sold out a few years ago.

Right now this country has to turn itself around and we're not going to do that if we put certain people ahead of others. We all need to work this TOGETHER as a team if we're are all to survive. That means union & non-union, democrats & republicans, red states & blue states - all of us. And it won't be easy with the media manufacturing a scandal against Obama but it can be done.

The one thing I liked about Obama is his comment that it's time we put partisan politics aside if we are to move this country forward. I'm not saying that Unions are partisan politics but we are in an economic crisis where all of us need to work together. When we can get this economy turned around then we can go back to taking sides.

[DainBramaged]

18. Oh, I understand how many 'others' on DU aren't behind the UAW

or other Labor Unions, we see it every day by the amount of participation and even visits to the Labor forum and by the replies we get to these threads, and to the talking points spewed as if they are truth (UAW workers make $70 an hour)..

[LynneSin]

21. Who said we weren't behind the UAW?

Geez, don't you get it?

This isn't me busting on Unions. This is me hoping that we can resolve this issue without impacting the jobs that are being done by foreign car manufacterers. I know the $70/hr stuff is a lie, I know that we need to get these southern car factories unionized but I also know that right now I want to do the right thing that keeps the Big 3 & Unions making cars and won't impact other jobs out there because honestly - we can't afford to have any more layoffs in ANY industries. I can't even begin to think of how many jobs have been lost with the shut down of the Chrysler and Saturn plants here in Delaware - I want them open and making cars again (BTW, Bob Marley, yes the Bob Marley, use to work at the Chrysler Plant in Newark).

So please stop trying to make me or anyone else with simliar style posts as anti-unions. It's just annoying as hell.

[DainBramaged]

25. Why is making a bridge loan to the Big 3 a threat to Southern tier jobs

You keep saying this will threaten THEIR jobs, I guess I don't get it. I am worried about OUR JOBS OUR JOBS. GM has more to lose than anyone else in this game right now, and every supplier, dealer, lender along with them. OUR jobs are "Job One" not he jobs of the workers at the Honda Toyota Nissan, Hyundai BMW and Mercedes plants. THEIR profits go back to their mother country, and THEY have already received BILLIONS of dollars to build here.

I can see you think that the UAW needs to be equal to the non-Union workers and then the loans will be OK. I don't think so.

I get it. I have for a long time here. We aren't treated equally. And that's why the anti-Union sentiment is so rift here. You may support Unions, but asking us yet again to compromise so that the people who are draining our livelihood and sales are allowed to compete against us.

When we place the same restrictive tariffs on the Japanese and Koreans they place on us to bring OUR products into their countries, and lift the trade barriers that allowed them to build here in the first place (free trade for them, not for us) I'll worry about their workers here.

[LynneSin]

32. Why do you CONTINUE to read shit into my posts???!!1

All I have said is whatever we do I would like to make sure that NO ONE's jobs are impacted. (IE everyone is employeed after all of this is done)

Please - if you want to bitch find someone who has come out anti-union. I don't understand why you feel you need to peg that on me and frankly it's becoming annoying as hell too.

[DainBramaged]

36. You know Lynne. you've got some huge chip on your shoulder today

The only thing I'm reading in your posts is that you want EVERYBODY to work, even if the pay is shit and that it's OK for workers working for Foreign interests to be equal to union skilled labor. At what point do we as a country become a third world economy and become an exporting nation of natural resources only because we can no longer afford a few meager luxuries in life because EVEYONE should be making the same wage?

Stop accusing me of reading what isn't there. I read what I see. And your constant berating of me is insulting. My concern remains ONLY for the AMERICAN DOMESTIC Auto worker, the rest of the transplant scabs can go to hell.

[LynneSin]

41. I'm not even bothered reading your posts - you have major tunnel vision

If you can understand the clear concept that whatever we do I don't want anyone else losing a job. I can't see how you find that to be awful OR read something into it that's not there. Or think I have some 'chip' on my shoulder. If you take away your tunnel vision it's a pretty clear concept.

[DainBramaged]

43. I'm blind in one eye, hence, no chance of tunnel vision

:hi:


Maybe focused differently, yeah that's it, my focus.

[LynneSin]

46. Just read what I type and try not to modify it with your own version

it's annoying as hell. Remember, I have 2 union plants for UAW here in Delaware, I'm a union-supporting gal and I'm someone who doesn't want ANYONE to lose jobs no matter if they are union or non-union.

[JVS]

53. LOL!

I think you have it backwards.

[Marrah_G]

29. I'm going to disagree Lynne

I think that corporations are counting on that sort of thinking. minimum wage is better then nothing, a wage cut is better then nothing, loss of benefits is better then being unemployed. With unions you can stand up and say "NO that isn't enough" without fear of being fired.

yes, in the short run 14 and no protections and few benefits is better then being unemployed. But in the long run, it hurts us all, depresses wages, benefits and pensions.

So yes- my exes Teamsters Company s better then your average non- Teamsters company and always will be. Workers can stand up and speak together with some power, rather then facing corporate alone, powerless, with a good chance of being fired. Then they can be replaced by another powerless, nameless worker who will take less then they are worth just because it is better then no job at all.

I truly believe we need to push for more unions in this country.

[LynneSin]

33. If the economy wasn't tanking I'd agree with you

but right now and as someone who for all I know might not have my job tomorrow (and I'm non-union, white collar), right now I don't want anyone impacted. Nuff said.

[Marrah_G]

34. I know- it's such a hard topic with no easy answers

It's scary as hell out there. I am also white-collar, non union (but a fantastic comp owner) and I am looking at a cut in hours (lack of business) and a real possibility of going out of business.

[LynneSin]

42. I know the feeling - I can't wish bad karma on anyone

I'm so paranoid - I might even be able to get a job at Wal-mart and honestly, with this economy I'd take it if there was nothing else out there.

[eomer]

39. There's the Shock Doctrine in action.

Getting people to accept what they otherwise wouldn't. We may have to take some risks in the short term or else we will always be at the mercy of the latest shock.

I'm not sure, anyway, that there's any tension, from the workers' point of view, between the big 3 rescue and the foreign brand jobs in the South. I can see what the southern Republican governors are worried about. They are obviously corporatist and opposed to unions so any success story of unions is something they want to eliminate. But I don't see how a success story of the UAW is any threat to the other workers' interests or the foreign brand jobs in the South. Those southern workers will actually be in a much better position with the big 3 rescue than without it, won't they? Without it there is a flood of unemployed auto workers to compete for their jobs and further depress their wages. With it there is upward pressure on wages and benefits. Is there some potential impact of the rescue you're thinking of that I'm missing?

[LynneSin]

45. I'm more willing to take risks if we weren't already deep in the shitter with this economy

to lay even more people off is going to take us beyond the depression.

And like I've told the other person - please don't read anything into my comment. I have never opposed the bail-out. If folks even BOTHERED to read my posts they'd see that I'm not only pro-union but living in a state with 2 Car plants (Chrysler and GM) that are both closed.

So the fact that my very clear words of "Right now I'd like to find a happy medium where no one loses their jobs" is just what is means. I want our Big 3 to succeed, I don't want people losing jobs in the south and yes, I support union, the bail-out and I'm a proud owner of a Toyota that was built in the US.

Please don't read between the lines. Please don't begin to assume a message that I have not typed. Just take it for what you've read - a gal who doesn't want to see anyone else unemployeed. How we reach that may not be easy but it can be done!

[JVS]

54. The problem that I see is that some people think being in a union makes you into Labor Royalty.

The workers in Toyota and Honda plants are not untouchable scab shithead peons deserving of being fired and villainized because they compete with UAW workers at the big 3. They are auto workers, who if they UAW is to live up to its name need to be organized. Of course the big 3 loves pitting labor against itself, and unfortunately it seems that many who claim to be on the side of auto workers have much more solidarity with GM management than with fellow labor.


Of course, now I will be attacked for being a minion of the Japanese.

[bobbolink]

63. "the big 3 loves pitting labor against itself" EXACTLY!

And what we do is cooperate with them, by attacking each other.

We do this in thread after thread.

Then when it comes time to vote, we wonder why there isn't the enthusiasm *we* think there should be.

We just follow along, attacking each other and doing the bidding of those who are enjoying the HELL out of our squabbles.

[blue_onyx]

24. How does helping the Big 3...

"jeopardize other peoples job in the process." Helping the Big 3 will also benefit the foreign automakers because it will protect the suppliers. If the US automakers go under, so will many suppliers. The foriegn car companies then wouldn't be able to get the parts they need to make vehicles.

[michreject]

35. Let me add this

They want to BANKRUPT the Domestic Auto industry

The state of California wishes to do the same thing.

[Nightflurry]

13. UAW Workers make that too

You forget the two tiered wage system. Where myself and other Big 3 works make under $15/hr with basically no benefits.

I still support the union, but to say UAW jobs pay better is no longer a reality if you're just starting to work in the last few years.

[mainer]

48. NYT says Toyota workers make $45 an hour

And that UAW autoworkers make $55 an hour.


http://www.researchrecap.com/index.php/2008/12/10/autoworkers-pay-only-small-factor-in-detroits-problems/

[DainBramaged]

52. Great find, I bookmarked it and may throw it up in GD.

[mainer]

55. "Legacy Costs" are the real problem for American makers

I found it interesting that American car companies are hamstrung by the simple fact they've been in business longer, and have a larger retiree workforce to pay benefits to.

[DainBramaged]

57. I keep asking these Transplant supporters if they have ever talked

to a Honda or Toyota retiree.


<crickets>

[SharonAnn]

68. And management didn't do their job of funding future liabilities.

[DainBramaged]

5. It will also be interesting to see their reactions to a natural disaster

like a hurricane and to watch and see how long it takes for them to come to the Obama Administration hat in hand begging for aid.

[roguevalley]

56. Ed Schultz calls it ecomonic treason and Shelby an economic

terrorist who wants to bust unions. I think he's a complete asshole too but that's just me.

[DainBramaged]

58. So you disagree is that your point, or coming right out and saying it

wasn't a good idea.

[roguevalley]

61. I agree with Schultz. those who gave tax payers money to lure

foreign car makers and then refuse to give tax payer money to native companies on some idea that throwing money at them is a bad idea is an economic traitor. Shelby is an asshole.

[DainBramaged]

64. Thanks I read it wrong, my apologies.

:hug:

[roguevalley]

65. no problem, sweets. I probably garbled my intentions in the original

post. I mashed my hand and my typing isn't too organized. :-D

[DainBramaged]

66. I have slowly grown accustomed to ED

But in real life, we are closer to agreement than you'd realize. I'd love to have a radio show for a couple of days. It would be....uhhh... different.

[roguevalley]

67. if you ever do, let us know. built in audience. :-D

[Buzz Clik]

2. More and more states are getting those plants.

We have them in Indiana...

[navarth]

4. I agree with DainBramaged

Get 'em, Doug!!

[DainBramaged]

6. I does me bests!

:hi: :hug:

[malaise]

7. How many of them got free cars from the foreign companies

How many of them used state taxes to subsidize the plants? How much tax payer money did they spend training workers for those plants?

Expose Shelby and the others.

[Better Believe It]

20. K & R

[Romulox]

19. There was poster from Alabama going on about the "competitive marketplace" last night

Until I mentioned that Alabama couldn't even afford to be a member of the Union (that is the USA) without massive subsidies from the other states. :silly:

[blue_onyx]

22. Yeah, I know the poster you are talking about

I called his "competitive marketplace" argument bullshit and scared him away. He couldn't answer why it's ok for foreign countries to enact policies to benefit their auto companies but it's not ok for us to do the same. I think he, like Shelby, is more interested in benefiting from the potential collapse of the Big 3 than protecting millions of job.

[Occam Bandage]

23. A Toyota plant in America hires as many workers as a Ford plant in America.

The pay is competitive for a new hire, too.

[DainBramaged]

26. Why can't we build a GM plant in Japan then?

And why do they place such high tariffs on OUR cars to keep them out of their marketplace? When the playing field is equal, you have a point, until then, sorry. Toyota can kiss my ass.

[michreject]

37. My American car lovin ass

If I may.

[DainBramaged]

38. You bet

[pampango]

40. "Japan imposes no tariffs on imported automobiles and auto parts"

"Japan's per capita imports from U.S. is more than U.S. per capita imports from Japan has been used by the Japanese to argue that Japan's market is open to the world, especially to the United States."

"It has been argued that the U.S. trade deficit is a result of competitiveness of foreign made products. 1 want to argue that American products are competitive, too. After all, the U.S. is the largest exporter in the world and the U.S. exports more to major industrial countries than Japan. Japan's exports to the world are about 80 percent of U.S. exports to the world. Germany, with an economy about half of the Japanese economy, actually exports more than Japan."

http://www.uwsp.edu/business/CWERB/1stQtr96/SpecialReportQtr1_96.htm

Not sure if the lack of tariffs make "the playing field equal", but Japan isn't using tariffs to keep our cars out.

[DainBramaged]

44. Oh really, I especially LOVE this part

Japan's per capita imports from U.S. is more than U.S. per capita imports from Japan

and we promise we won't attack your Naval port in Hawaii. :eyes:

[lastliberalintexas]

60. Utter bullshit

Speaking as someone who lives in a rice growing region of the US, I know first hand just how many tariffs, restrictions and other kinds of blockades Japan imposes in order to keep US goods out of its country. When we can sell our cars AND our rice in Japan, then I might forgive someone for buying a Toyota.

Well, if Toyota stops union busting, anyway.

[Marrah_G]

30. Do they have equal benefits, retirement and job security?

[mainer]

49. Their benefits according to the New York Times:

http://www.researchrecap.com/index.php/2008/12/10/autoworkers-pay-only-small-factor-in-detroits-problems/

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. It's just Republicans and conservative Democrats being themselves.

Look, one of the fundamental tenets of American conservatism is that unions destroy businesses. So from their ideological perspective this is simply a case of "I told you so," nothing more. There's no truth to this (if there were, Ford would be as bad off as GM and Chrysler) but the Republican world view has never dealt well with nuance.

[amborin]

28. busting the UAW will bust all workers' wages and benefits, just the beginning of the end for workers

it's not really that they have foreign interests first

it's that they're anti-union and anti worker

[Marrah_G]

31. Bingo

[YvonneCa]

69. We have a winner!

Union busting...pure and simple.

[Idealism]

47. Can't let the Repukes get away with this crap

k&r, my labor friend!

Hopefully more will listen to us, sadly I spend most of my time on DU defending the UAW and arguing with fellow democrats because of the bullshit the MSM has been spewing into their heads :(

[DainBramaged]

51. we are being held hostage AGAIN by the Japanese and their willing minions

They tried buying our country out from under us in the 80's, now they are succeeding.

[Midwestern Democrat]

50. They are completely shameless. IMO, relying on foreign corporations

for your economy is like being a kept woman - the $$$$ can be shut off at anytime.

[depakid]

59. More likely, they're just right wing ideologues

Whose ideology trumps rational thinking- and who don't care a lick about the consequences to their own constituents- or anyone else's.

Hopefully, Obama (if not the spineless congressional Dems) will realize, finally, that these folks are NOT going to cooperate with efforts to repair and rebuild the economy- and start relegating them back to the fringe where they belong.

[JDPriestly]

62. I just posted the fable of the Goose that Laid the Golden Egg.

Here is another example of that.

I do think that the CEOs of the Big Three are among those to blame for having ruined not only their own companies, but our economy. But these southern senators are hurting the whole nation. Fortunately, they are a minority.