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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:19 PM
Original message
Forced electroshock is happening in America...
MindFreedom International - Ray Alert #5
Win Human Rights in Mental Health - Please Forward!
http://www.mindfreedom.org/shield/ray/alert-5-sandford

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ray's Next Scheduled Involuntary Outpatient Electroshock is:
10 December -- International Human Rights Day!

by David W. Oaks, Executive Director, MindFreedom International

This Wednesday, 10 December 2008, human rights activists all over the
world will be celebrating the 60th anniversary of the signing of the
United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

10 December is the UN's official International Human Rights Day.

10 December is also the day that Ray Sandford is scheduled to receive
his 35th involuntary outpatient electroshock.

NEW ON WEB: Learn Ray's story -- Frequently Asked Questions About Ray
Sandford Campaign, click here:
http://www.mindfreedom.org/shield/ray/sandford-faq

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Latest News on Ray Campaign

Unless action is taken swiftly, then this Wednesday morning, as he
has been for most mornings in the last few months, Ray will be
awakened early by staff in his room at the group residence Victory
House near Minneapolis.

Once more an escort will bring him against his will the 15 miles to
Mercy Hospital, where once more -- under court order -- doctors will
place electrodes on his head for another electroconvulsive therapy
(ECT), or electroshock, that can and has wiped out precious memories
and cognitive abilities from Ray.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Good News About Ray Campaign:

Because of MindFreedom's campaign to support Ray Sandford:

* The Minnesota Governor's office reports receiving "hundreds" of
complaints. Thank you everyone!

* Three agencies are now working to replace Ray's non-responsive
court-appointed attorney with a new attorney.

* National media has finally interviewed Ray for an upcoming broadcast.

The Bad News: It is Not Enough! Speak Out Now!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

** ACTION ** ACTION ** ACTION **

It is time to take the Ray Campaign up a notch, peacefully but strongly!

Let this become a top issue in the Governor's office.

Telephone Governor Pawlenty's office *NOW*:

Call any day, but especially call *before* Ray's scheduled
electroshock next Wednesday, 10 December 2008.

Call from anywhere in the world phone (651) 296-3391.

From inside Minnesota phone toll free (800) 657-3717.

You have the best chance of reaching staff from 8:00 am to 4:30 pm
Central Time weekdays.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WHY WON'T GOVERNOR PAWLENTY REPLY? Find out! Ask!

Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty has completely stone-walled!

* His office refuses to issue any statement on the policy of forced
electroshock.

* He claims he can do nothing, that the courts are in charge, when he
could at least make sure Ray gets better legal representation for a
stay or appeal.

* His office operators have been instructed to immediately redirect
calls about Ray into a voice mail. No one we know of has ever heard
back. Some operators have hung up on callers.

* Meanwhile, the Governor is sponsoring a $200-a-head luxury hotel
conference about International Human Rights Day!

It is time to get creative!

* Ray will not give up!

* We will not give up!

* Don't you give up!

Please be peaceful, but be CREATIVELY MALADJUSTED in your next
phone calls to Governor Pawlenty's office.

First, get the name of the operator and write it down. Then start by
asking polite but firm questions about advocacy...

* about citizen input...

* about who to talk to about mental health policy...

* about the names and phone numbers of the Ombudsman office

* about mental health policy and the mental health division...

* about how poor people can have adequate legal representation...

And only then ask about why the Governor is refusing to speak out
about Involuntary Outpatient Electroshock (IOE)?

Insist on speaking to a live real person about this issue.

If you do not get a real person with a real reply, CALL BACK.

If an operator hangs up on you, call back and ask to speak to a
manager and complain.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

REMEMBER:

Telephone Governor Pawlenty's office *NOW*:

Call any day, but especially call *before* Ray's scheduled
electroshock next Wednesday, 10 December 2008.

Call from anywhere in the world phone (651) 296-3391.

From inside Minnesota phone toll free (800) 657-3717.

You have the best chance of reaching staff from 8:00 am to 4:30 pm
Central Time weekdays.

If you do receive any helpful information or leads, e-mail it to news-
at-mindfreedom.org.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Learn more about Ray on the all-new "Frequently Asked Questions"
page about the Ray Campaign.

Learn about:

* The back story about Ray.

* How MindFreedom filed an official torture complaint about the State
of Minnesota to the United Nations.

* And what else you can do to help.

Click on the Frequently Asked Questions page here:
http://www.mindfreedom.org/shield/ray/sandford-faq

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A clickable version of above Ray Alert 5 is on web here:
http://www.mindfreedom.org/shield/ray/alert-5-sandford

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Get Around the Media Blackout! Forward this human rights alert to
all people who care about human rights, on and off the Internet!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Encourage Everyone to Join MindFreedom International During the Fall
2008 Support Drive

Build the people power it will take to stop the kind of torture that
Ray is experiencing!

For information about how you can join MindFreedom today, click here:

http://www.mindfreedom.org/join-donate

~~~~~~~~~~

MindFreedom International Office:

454 Willamette, Suite 216 - POB 11284; Eugene, OR 97440-3484 USA

web site: http://www.mindfreedom.org
e-mail: office@mindfreedom.org
MFI member services phone: (541) 345-9106
MFI member services toll free: 1-877-MAD-PRIDe or 1-877-623-7743
new fax: (480) 287-8833

~~~~~~~~~~~~

MindFreedom International is a 100 percent independent nonprofit
united to win activist campaigns for human rights and alternatives in
mental health.

Join or renew early here:

http://www.mindfreedom.org/join-donate

Please forward.

~~~~~~~~~~~~


If you are not on the MindFreedom-News alert list and wish to be, sign up for this free non-profit public service here:
http://www.intenex.net/lists/listinfo/mindfreedom-news
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. when I was 14 I visited my dad in the hospital after he got that shock stuff
he did not know who I was
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. How was he subsequently?
I've known people who had it and frankly prescribed it at times and initially, the family was horrified at the patient's status, but gradually, the patient did show some improvement.

Not all, of course. Mental illness is very difficult to treat. ECT should be the treatment of last resort and I believe that is the position the AMA and APA takes.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. he eventually killed himself
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Oh, Skittles. I'm so sorry. I didn't know or I wouldn't have asked.
I meant did he recover his faculties enough to recognize you at some point?

I'm so sorry about your dad. :hug:
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. no, he was never the same
I think it made him worse
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
41. Damn
I cannot imagine how hard that had to be.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
68. oh get this
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 12:38 PM by Skittles
he shot himself three days before my birthday and lived for six days - he was 50 years old
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. oh man Skittles
No wonder you are such a strong person. I'm truly sorry you had to go through such a horrible experience.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Not all the time is it last resort
And mental illness as a "brain chemical" thing has been DEBUNKED.
That is why Zoloft and other anti depressants cannot say that in their ads anymore.
I think the way we are forced to live and abuse makes mental illness happen,other than trauma/brain injuries/environmental toxins..



Shock treatment is barbaric. It's like kicking a delicate powerful computer with your boot , because it starts having reactions because the electricity into the building is surging and it has no surge protection plug..

This blaming the illness on the patient alone shit has got to end.Bio psych is crap.
Look at how the pharma industry handles objections to "symptom suppression" They never say, Feel bad? Here,get drunk/high.".Nah they are not that honest, they babble out "You suffer from clinical depression It is proven scientifically that clinical depression is caused by insufficient serotonin in your brain" Then they sell you with "We have a NEW drug that will remedy that scarcity in YOUR brain we think YOU have" (They NEVER say, "You have a ZOLOFT deficiency!", though that's what the bio-psych argument is.) Why is it more scientific to say the lie about serotonin than saying, "You feel bad? Get drunk/high?

Or they say, you are"clinically depressed",let's try running electric shocks through your brain to induce a seizure and see if that does anything.

Yeah ECT is real science..
My ass it's barbaric.Just like they callesd it science when "therapy" was to torture people in asylums long ago to"fix them".
http://t1c.blogspot.com /
http://www.stopshrinks.org/kmhac/grievous.htm
http://www.wildestcolts.com/mentalhealth/shock.html
I know people don't like hearing it but it's true Drug companies profit alot by pushing the bio - psych model,and the bio psych model leaves out the issues of authoritarianism,a sick society,sick parenting, and other forms of abuse out of the equation of mental illness. Nobody lives in a vacuum.But I have my own thoughts and my own observations I have made.Not everyone will agree or like it,and that does not bother me at all.

What is psychotherapy? A Friend for hire to talk to ,for people who have trouble dealing with people or who lack social skills to make Friends.
There are OTHER ways to help.
http://www.jungcircle.com/PsychDU2.html

Radical Psychiatry holds that all functional psychiatric difficulties are forms of alienation resulting from the mystified oppression of people who are isolated from each other.

People's alienation is the result of power abuse and is therefore a political matter. Any person in the practice of psychiatry (Greek; psyche=soul, iatria=healing) becomes involved in the personal politics of those he or she attempts to help, either as an ally or as an oppressor; there is no chance of neutrality for a person with power, in an oppressive situation. In order to be helpful, any person who claims to practice soul healing needs to become an ally against the oppressive influences in the lives of those he or she is attempting to help.

http://www.emotional-literacy.com/rpbrief.htm

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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
39. Mental illness as a brain chemical thing has been debunked?
Wow. I don't even know where to start.

And your sources? My God. Snake oil, anyone?
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. .
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
47. this is crap. mental illness is physical.

'Alienation as a result of power abuse' - biggest crock of shit I ever heard.

psychiatry is an imperfect science, but is helps millions of people who could not otherwise function.

peddle your snake oil theories somewhere else.'mystified oppression of isolated people' this would be laughable if you weren't doing harm by posting this and passing it off as something scientific.



:grr: :thumbsdown:
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mentalsolstice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
71. So MI is a choice?
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 01:22 PM by mentalsolstice
"I think the way we are forced to live and abuse makes mental illness happen,other than trauma/brain injuries/environmental toxins."

M'kay, gotcha! How do you explain siblings who grow up in the same environment, one turns out "normal", and the other not so much.I guess the sibling who has a mental illness, is simply weaker, succumbing to his/her victimization.

If that's what you're proposing, and enough others think as you do, then I can see where the State will start rounding up persons with mental illnesses, lock 'em up, and throw away the key. Oh wait, we've already tried that tact, haven't we?

edit: to clarify I'm not an advocate for ECT
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
43. My friends mother
suffers from debilitating depression. Every year she goes through a series of four shock treatments. (Voluntarily) She is 90 years old now, and she continues this treatment, swearing it's the only thing that helps her. I've never seen her immediately following the treatment, but our friends say it's difficult to see her go through this. Willingly.

Honestly, if I didn't know about my friend's mother, I would have thought that EST had long been discarded as a potential treatment for mental illness.


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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Uhh...UP?
What specific action or actions, on the part of Ray, led to this? I am not defending this whatsoever. ECT should be buried with Dr. Joseph Cotton. I just want to know what specific events led to this "sentence".
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I am far from an advocate of ECT, but I *have* seen it be
extremely effective in certain cases. It's like rebooting the brain in certain cases and allows some patients to continue living their lives.

I'm not a fan of it for everyone. It needs to be used very sparingly, but it DOES work in some cases where pharmaceutical and therapeutic intervention has not been successful.

It would seem to me if this person were getting 'involuntary' ECT, that he has been committed involuntarily. Depending on the laws in that particular state, the staff is essentially free to prescribe any treatment that they feel is beneficial.

I'm going to reserve my judgment on this.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
16.  reboot the brain?
Than how come people with epilepsy have depression still exist?
My brain is alive, it is not a computer.I don't want to play zap roulette. Will it help or will it hurt? After it is done you cannot go back.

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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. As have I.
ECT has evolved considerably in the last 20 years er so too.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. ECT has NOT evolved over the past twenty years
So-called "modified" ect just LOOKS kinder and gentler. In reality, stronger sedation and muscle relaxants create a higher seizure threshold, therefore more electricity at longer durations is required to bring about the desired seizure.

In one sense you are correct though. In the seventies it was decided that electrodes placed unilaterally created less memory/brain damage than electrodes placed bilaterally.

It is still medically-induced closed head injury, and until a shock doc agrees to be shocked on 60 minutes and followed up on for 6 months I am not buying that it is "safe and effective".
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. "Electroconvulsive Therapy" page 9:
Moreover, incremental advances in the method of administering ECT have permitted refinement of the treatment to the point that, with the high dose brief-pulse right unilateral technique, most patients can enjoy the full therapeutic benefit of ECT without the usual cognitive side effects that were so prominent with the original method (Weiner et al., 1986b; Squire and Zouzounis, 1986; Pettinati et al., 1990; Swartz and Vedak, 1991).

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195109449
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #32
57. Old. Here is a study from 2007
Old studies failed to follow up for more than a few weeks.

Permanent Amnesia and Cognitive Deficits, Prominent Researcher Admits



http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&S...
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. A few snips:
The seven sites differed significantly in cognitive outcomes both immediately and 6 months following ECT, even when controlling for patient characteristics.

...

DISCUSSION

The seven hospitals differed in the magnitude of deficits at the post-ECT assessment (Figure 2), with significant differences in seven of the 11 cognitive measures. ... In turn, these differences among the hospitals were largely attributable to differences in ECT technique.

The demonstration of differences in the long-term cognitive outcomes as a function of hospital setting and treatment technique supports the conclusion that some forms of ECT have persistent long-term effects on cognitive performance.

Without evaluating a comparable group that did not receive ECT, it cannot be concluded,
however, that the extent of improvement in any group returned to premorbid levels.

Second, there was evidence that the number of treatments administered, an essential characteristic
of dosage, linearly covaried with the extent of long-term retrograde amnesia for autobiographical information for patients treated with BL ECT, but not for patients treated with RUL ECT. This provided internal support for the claim that choice of electrode placement is critical in determining the severity of long-term deficits.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #60
72. The procedure itself is unregulated
Duration and voltage are strictly up to the person delivering the household current. This may explain discrepancies in study results.

Common sense and logic should be applied . Fact: Seizures are not good for the brain. Forced seizures in the brain brought about by electricity should instinctively make one cringe at the thought and would not be allowed in any other field of medicine outside of the practice that deals with mentally ill persons.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. Trauma as a byproduct of healing may be ...
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 02:03 PM by yowzayowzayowza
counter intuitive, but frequently useful. Methinkz we sometimes call it surgery.

eta: traUma
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. I don't compare surgery to rape.
And next time you talk to a doctor off the record, ask what he thinks of ect.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Sure ...
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 02:02 PM by yowzayowzayowza
the psychiatric community is engaging in rape. :eyes:

I've had all too many occasions to discuss treatments for mental illness with doctors on and off the record. Thx.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Then surely you know about the Hippocratic Oath
Yes. Forcing electricity though one's brain against one's will is rape. If you don't get the analogy I can't help you. Try getting a round of ect and get back to us.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Mindfreedom goes into it
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 11:05 PM by undergroundpanther
WHAT IS MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM'S REASON FOR DOING THIS?


It's hard to tell.

Ray has been in and out of the mental health system for more than 30 years, with a diagnosis of "bipolar." According to his mother, the mental health system mainly tried psychiatric drugs on Ray, and when those didn't worked they turned to electroshock. Apparently, other alternatives have not been offered to Ray and his family beyond psychiatric drugs and shock.

He is not being forcibly shocked for any criminal justice reasons. According to more than one authority, Ray has no serious criminal convictions, at least for the past number of years.

The bottom line is, there is no good reason to forcibly electroshock anyone, it is inherently intrusive, traumatic and brain damaging. Despite his experiences, Ray remains crystal clear that he does not want his forced electroshock, and he wants to tell the world. Especially, forcibly shocking someone out in the community makes everyone even in their own homes unsafe.

read more
http://www.mindfreedom.org/shield/ray/sandford-faq
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. yes, my first question was why? I have not heard of such a thing, involuntarily.
As a matter of fact you can't even keep someone in a mental hospital involuntarily I don't think. We have a drug addict in the family who is continually threatening suicide,and doing all sorts of things,a nd she can only be hospitalized against her will for 3 days in an emergency to keep her from harming someone or herself. On day 4 she is free to go. always. And of course she refuses any treatment. So if we cannot get any treatment for her because she does not want help, and she really needs it desperately, how is it that someone can be forced to undergo electric shock?
it could be difference sin state alws? Or mandated by a judge/ if so, WHY?
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
26. It's court-ordered ... more info ...
The website has what is apparently the one and only newspaper story on the case. Ray is called "Samuel" in the story. I looked through Lexis-Nexis and Newsbank and couldn't find anything else, but that seems partly explained by this story as Ray is distrustful of the media and asked to have a fake name used in the article. (That is, I wouldn't have found anything with a search using his name.) He gave his real name to the Mind Freedom organization who connected his case with the published story.

http://www.mindfreedom.org/campaign/media/mf/zenith-for...

You have to follow the links in the FAQ. I missed it the first time around.

In summary, Sandford seems to have an extreme case of bi-polar disorder, and various drug therapies have not worked. He's been in and out of the hospital much of his life it seems, and his frequent manic episodes have been of the extreme variety that endanger himself and others:

During manic episodes, Samuel has cut his wrists, punched out a plate glass window, wrecked cars, lost his clothing, and sent flowers to everyone he knows. He had his nose broken once in a fight and his mother doesnt believe hes received adequate care when in jail.


It's not clear from the story what the specific reasons for this are. One thing that can lead to a court order for involuntary ECT involves a patient who does not or cannot regulate his medication outside a hospital environment or who has shown no positive response to medication and continues having severe manic episodes and depressive episodes that result in suicide attempts. I'm guessing, based on the information given, that his court-appointed guardian was left with a choice between permanent institutionalization or placement in what is basically a halfway house and radical treatment options.

The mother (80) was a nurse who herself administered the treatment to others when she was practicing and does not seem to be against it, per se. It's the frequency that has her concerned as they seem to extend well outside standard protocols for its use.

One problem we have here in determining what exactly is going on is that his court-appointed attorney cannot reveal any details about his case. So, all we have to go on are what those around him and he have said about it. His mother suggested the possibility that his contacting Mind Freedom may be the precursor to another manic episode, which could explain part of his motivation, but is also interesting because, if true, it would indicate this treatment is in fact not working.

Tough case ... I don't condone the idea of forced medical treatment at all, but I fear the alternative for him is long-term institutionalization.

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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #26
38. Not necessarily, Roy-boy.
A good and well-run supportive housing environment, and I mean GOOD, such as Easter Seals provides, would be another alternative. I have seen a lot of people come out of them into their own living situations where they lead full, happy and productive lives. They also thrive while living in them.

It's not all snake pits and horror stories out there.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #38
56. I'd agree there ...

And, the key is definitely on "good."

It's his specific circumstances that are troublesome. We just don't know enough details and likely won't to form any conclusive judgements. The MF site is going to twist the story the way they want it twisted. I'm not saying the details they provide are wrong, but they're incomplete, and certain elements are emphasized while others are downplayed or barely provided at all.

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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #56
65. MF are Scientologists. Something they fail to ever disclose.
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 12:35 PM by BeHereNow
For those BPs who do not respond to other treatments for condition, ECT
is THE only and last resort of those in the medical profession who try to help.

Granted, I would guess there are those in the medical community who
abuse it, but I know personally of someone who benefitted from it after all
else had failed.

"BP is a disease that aims to destroy..." a direct quote from him in a series of email
correspondences we exchanged after my daughter was diagnosed.
His web site-
http://www.electroboy.com /

It is a TERRIBLY frightening condition for the people who love the person affected.
As the mother of a BP, I can tell you I would have tried ANYTHING to help her.
Fortunately, medication has controlled it for her.
Having seen up close and personal the destruction of BP on the person I love, I can tell
you if the medication had not worked, I would have been first in line
to seek whatever would, including ECT.

My heart goes out to any and all who are affected by BP.
It is an insidious and destructive killer.

As the saying goes, until you have walked the mile, shut your fucking mouth- MF.
BHN



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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Thanks for that ...

I brought this up with a person in a psychology department today, and he suggested this sounded like Scientology also.

My heart goes out to you. I know a bi-polar sufferer quite well myself.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #65
76. Unless you are willing to try it your self, please do not advise

You would not like it very much if your mom had ect and then you found that she forgot ever having raised you. Google is your friend.

Also, If scientologists think that George Bush sucks, does that then make Bush a good president?

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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. What part of my post did you NOT read? All of it perhaps?
For the record- having watched BP nearly kill my daughter,
I would undergo ANY procedure right by her side if it
was the last resort in trying to save her life.

If it saved her life, and was the only thing that MIGHT,
I would do anything.

It is fairly obvious you know little about what bipolar disorder does
to a person and the danger it can be to their life.

As a mother, having been up close and personal to it,
I can tell you that you have no idea what I would go through to save my child.

BHN
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. I am truly sorry for your situation.
and I do not doubt your love and concern for your daughter. I do happen to know a wee bit about BP and I apologize for my post. I do not outright oppose ect if it is a life/death situation.
But I do ask you to be careful as people in your situation can be taken advantage of, which is one of the reasons why the lies about the procedure enrage me.

I wish you and your daughter the best.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Thanks you for your empathy, but let me tell you what CAN happen to BPs...
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 02:39 PM by BeHereNow
15% of those diagnosed end up committing suicide.
The numbers of UNdiagnosed BP suicides is not known.

It is a disease which RAVAGES the sufferer as well as those
who stand by helpless to help their loved one.

I have dealt with Mind Freedom. They have a large base in Los Angeles
where I live. I have seen the SHAME and STIGMA they inflict on people
who are desperately seeking help for themselves or a loved one through
medical means.

THEY ARE SCIENTOLOGISTS, NOT DOCTORS.
Their agenda is NOT to help the suffering, they are engaged in
a Scientology war with the medical community who they see as
evil or some such shit.

My daughter had friends who made her feel TERRIBLE about
needing medication to live normally. ASS HOLE people, not
unlike the "Mind Fucker" coalition who USE people to wage their personal war.
Thankfully, my daughter is now far, far away from her so called
"friends," she fully understands that she NEEDS medication
and takes it faithfully. She is SO much better now and WANTS
to stay that way. She is regaining the quality of life she had
before the BP unleashed murderous symptoms in her life.
If anyone from her past or the Mind Freedom tried to come
anywhere near her at this point in her recovery, I would
have them arrested for attempted murder.

It is a dangerous thing to pretend you are a doctor or have
some profession qualifications in medicine when you are
dealing in a life and death situation- you may cause another's death.

Easy to judge the situation when you are not in it or
engaged in a personal agenda.

My heart goes out to this man and his mother.
Something I can assure you is not the case with the
Mind Freedom coalition.

BHN



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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #86
96. I don't care for that orginization either.
And I totally get how your daughter was made to feel shamed. Shame is one of the most painful of feelings and it's long-term affects (in my opinion) are highly overlooked in psychology.

There was a time when morphine was the gold standard.

http://www.elle.com/featurefullstory/11334/beyond-the-v...
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. It's especially damaging to someone so young. AND depressed to begin with.
Unfortunately, my daughter was hit with her first symptoms living far from home
with what I can safely say are the most fucked up, arrogant and ignorant
groups of young people I have ever encountered. "Artists." Or so they
imagined themselves to be.
Of the group, she was the only one who was actually gifted- brilliantly so.

We have talked about them since. She gently told me, in their defense, if you
can imagine that, that she felt that some how, seeing her weak made them
feel better about themselves. That secretly, there was great envy among them
towards her. I think she was right about that.

To this day, I damn them all for their indifference to her suffering.

She was clearly sick and not one of them thought to call me, or as she pointed
out, wanted to see her feel better, as her sickness made them suddenly
feel superior to her.

BHN
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Makes me wonder
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 04:07 PM by Artiechoke
about the link between creativity and bipolar. How much of the suffering is compounded by jealous loved ones and/or "friends" and colleagues?
I despise your daughters friends and I don't even know them.


edit: I have a friend diagnosed bipolar who had her art teacher accuse her (in front of the class) of copying her work. (she could do a portrait of someone in less than a minute).
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. There is a HUGE connection between bipolar disorder and creative types.
As her doctor went over what they know about the part of the brain
that is undergoing seizure in BPD, it is the VERY same part of the brain
that they have also mapped creative spikes and activities.

I guess it is a double edged sword, creativity of that magnitude.
Obviously, it can turn on the person who has it.

Looking back on people I now suspect were also bipolar, as in brilliant
in area of creativity, I KNOW I witnessed great jealously and dismissal
of the individual.

People who are not as gifted, yet wish to be, feel better
when they can say, "Yeah, he/she is a great artist, but boy, are they crazy."

BHN
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #102
105. Absoltely. We need some sort of program in schools.
I can't think of anything at the moment but there should be a way to insulate without isolating gifted people such as your daughter.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. Until the STIGMA and TREATMENT stop being demonized, there will not be such a program.
The nasty little fuckers in my daughter's life stigmatized her for
needing to depend on medication.

Guess they preferred for her to stay sick.

BHN
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #106
110. The stigma is treated as a disability by the government.
One of the criteria for receiving disability payments is "have a disability or is perceived to have a disability". That's a pretty strong indicator of the dark strength of stigma. Of course stigma surrounding mental illness and it's treatments is far worse in my opinion. It's dehumanizing to the nth degree.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #76
90. Been there, done that.
"You would not like it very much if your mom had ect and then you found that she forgot ever having raised you."

Even with the short-term memory loss, twuz a FUCKING upgrade. Sorry you cannot comprehend the misery that results in that sorta trade-off.

Google is no substitute for experience.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. Glad it worked for you
And thanks for being honest about the short-term memory effect.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #92
108. Fuck me.
It werked for her. She ceased conversing with the deceased on the TV and got back on her medz.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. I meant her.
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 05:25 PM by Artiechoke
Or the both of you. Whatever. I am glad it worked out. You and she have probably been through hell and I don't mean to demean either of you.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #65
88. David Oaks is not Scientologist so far as I can tell...
... although there are frequent attempts to dismiss him as such.

For the most part we are all screaming in the dark.

Indisputably, the history of psychiatry in the United States has episodes of extreme ugliness. Lobotomies, confinement and drugs forced upon people who were misdiagnosed for reason of racism, politics, or just to get them out of the way, or by practitioners following cruel and bizarre theoretical frameworks that were later discredited. It still happens.

Currently the practice of psychiatry is very much beholden to the pharmaceutical industry. Most of the "scientific" literature in the field is highly tainted by pharmaceutical industry money and political influence. The insurance industry and the pharmaceutical industry have corrupted the practice of medicine in the United States, and psychiatry is especially prone to this sort of corruption.

The simple fact that we know so little about the functioning of the brain opens the door to all manner of mistreatment and malpractice.

We've gone from believing in demonic possession, to judging or blaming the victim or their parents, to speculations about brain chemistry... It's still not quite a science. If you read the literature it's clear we don't really know what psych meds or treatments do to a brain. I take one medicine that was "scientifically" developed to address a theory of mental activity that has since been disproved. In other words, nobody really knows how the med works, only that it does work. It was a lucky shot in the dark. Since it's a very inexpensive generic the pharmaceutical companies are very busy trying to find some similar drug they can patent, market, and sell at great profit, often to people who don't need it, or to people who would do just as well or better taking the generic drug.

I wish you and your daughter well. I've put my own family and friends through hell sometimes, and I still don't have a lot of things right. Every day is an adventure, good and bad.


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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. Oaks may not be a Scientologist, but I will assure you he has been infiltrated by them.
Probably with out his knowledge.
That was my experience with them.
They often work under "umbrella" names to
remain unidentified as the cult members they are.
I dealt with them for three years under another name until
I discovered who they were.

Those with nothing to hide, hide nothing.

BHN
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #94
103. CCHR, maybe?


Reverend Moon was always on the lookout for misfits too...

Some of the less well known christian cults are purely evil, they don't even pretend to be mainstream -- they are bible thumping, sermon spewing stalkers for satan.

:scared:
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #103
104. PRECISELY! That is exactly who I encountered; but through yet ANOTHER umbrella for them.
I don't feel so bad about being deceived by them though-
They also netted a well respected UCLA doctor.
She didn't find out for a long time either.

They are VERY deceptive.

BHN
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RedCappedBandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. The way we treat the mentally ill is despicable
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 09:35 PM by RedCappedBandit
However, hasn't ECT been shown to be effective in the treatment of certain conditions?
(I highly disagree with forcing anybody into such treatment, btw)

Edit: Never mind, I confused ECT with something else.
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Veritas_et_Aequitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. ECT has been used to treat bipolar disorder, clinical depression and schizophrenia.
Its effectiveness is wildly variable.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. And is wildly variable results WORTH the risk.
Of ECT.

One time I was with a different therapist and I was really depressed.
So depressed he suggested ECT. I said no way in hell.
I looked at anything I was doing differently,I was using a new sweetener splenda.It had just come out. So I stopped using it.first the rash on my neck stopped itching,than my skin felt better,
The depression lifted. No ECT required.
And I switched therapists.Pronto.

And my issue is PSTD.

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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
73. 50-70% relapse rate.
I'd rather see a person use opiates as a last resort than do ect. (Opiates are very successful in treating refractory depression,anxiety etc.. but has not been officially approved)
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Its effectiveness is disputed ...

Clinical studies among patients that volunteered for the treatment have shown varying results. Kitty Dukakis famously cited it positively as a factor in her own treatment for acute depression. (It was something of a big deal back in the '88 election as Bush I's smear machine got to work.)

Its use is marred by past abuses when being in a mental hospital was essentially punishment, often merely for having a mental disorder and nothing else and its depiction in the book and especially the film _One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest_.

I asked a psychiatrist I was seeing about it once, and she said she'd never used it and wasn't inclined to for the patients she saw as to her knowledge, the evidence for its effectiveness was limited to immediate treatment for severe cases of mania or psychotic episodes. The recurrence rate was too high for it to be considered a long-term solution. It doesn't seem to be effective in the treatment of depression at all.

To my knowledge, a court order is required for involuntary use. Even voluntary consent can be revoked at any time by the individual or his or her guardian. So, I'm quite curious as to what were the circumstances that led to this because it strikes me as abhorrent, not because it is ECT specifically, but because he is being given medical treatment of any kind to which he doesn't seem to be giving consent.



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Veritas_et_Aequitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. In my travels I've encountered a few people who have tried ECT.
Specifically, three people. In their cases, it was a total failure.

I believe the theory behind it is that electricity can essentially shock the brain into "resetting", thus curing or at least alleviating mental illnesses. I have seen this work once - a man I knew from group therapy tried to kill himself by mixing pills and vodka while floating into the Long Island sound on a rubber tube. He was rescued, and when he came to in the hospital he no longer was suicidal or even remotely depressed. However, now he suffered from terrible anxiety problems.
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. Why the hell is this happening in America!
I know this next is a comparison that's been done to death on the internet, but this really is tantamount to what the Nazis did: Experimentation with someone's brain, against their will.

It figures, Pawlenty is a goddamned Republican. Torture is their favorite hobby.

I've K&R'ed this very important post. I hope more people will help. I'm sick of how the mentally ill are treated in this country!!
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Yep we "loons"
are treated as badly as the worst criminals or worse.
and our crime? Thinking differently ,feeling bad, or not being"normal enough". (Normal FYI is a FICTION dreamed up by francis Galton the "father of Eugenics it has become past of the language it is so commonly repeated)or if you are young doing things our parents get upset over.A sentance to the mental hospital has no expiration date,if the shrink wants you confined.A person in prison knows the time they will be in jail,a mental patient has no clue.

Like a dangerous prisoner without being one, I spent 18 months in solitary.Prisons do solitary to PUNISH or CONFINE dangerous or bad prisoners when they stab or rape someone and cannot be trusted around others.

And I don't hurt people,I have not broken the law.I spent 18 months in solitary..For WHAT??!!
They never bothered to tell me..go figure.
Mentally different and psychiatric injured people are treated like shit in this country and the discrimination and stigma in the public on this stuff is very pervasive and everywhere.And then there is Bio-psych. I hate it.
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. I am so very sorry for what you had to endure!
Rapists and murderers roamed free, during all the time you spent in solitary at a psych hospital...yeah, that's justice. :grr:

I admire your courage in getting through that awful situation without going insane for real.

You're right about "normalcy" being pure bullshit. I can't find it online, but there's an episode of "Clarissa Explains It All" about a junior-high guidance counselor making her life hell because she was trying to force free-spirited Clarissa to be "normal". Meanwhile, the counselor was a nutbag who obsessively sharpened dozens of pencils and kept them in a drawer "just in case". That really did "explain it all" about how society tries to force you into this bullshit concept of normalcy. Except that, nowadays, if a kid isn't normal, the schools want to pump him full of Ritalin. And it goes downhill from there....

I could write so much more about this, except I'm too tired right now. Suffice it to say that it saddens me to hear about what you went through.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
27. Exactly how is it ones 'will' to ...
... letz say ... repeatedly run 'round the neighborhood babbling incoherently buck nekkid? How much 'experimentation with someone's brain, against their will' would you condone on your loved one to deal with such behavior? Do you really think all care providers and family of such wretched souls are engaging in careless incarceration and treatment? The facts of this particular case notwithstanding, this thankless Nazi is fabulously envious of your blissful ignorance of despairz depths.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #27
59. Running 'round the neighborhood babbling incoherently buck nekkid...
... sounds sort of harmless, as long as they stay out of the street.

In a liberal accepting hunter-gatherer society such a person would probably be named "He who runs 'round the neighborhood babbling incoherently buck nekkid.

Sooner or later this poor person might end up as food for the grizzly bears or tigers, since those sorts of predators are not known for their patience, but this odd person would at least have some sort of life until then.

In oppressive societies such a person would be confined and used and abused until they died a miserable death. It would be said they were possessed by demons.

I've got the sort of brain for which meds are helpful -- without them I'd be some kind of slightly paranoid, slightly psychotic, wandering hermit. In our modern society, which is just the latest incarnation of cyclical rise-and-fall agrarian empire, I'd be just another dirty homeless person. But maybe that sort of person was useful to pre-agrarian societies. I'm pretty handy with tools, maybe guys like me traded in innovation: "Hey, I'll show you how to make a new kind of stone blade before I move on. What's for dinner?"

I think it all boils down to the fear of strangers. The ruling classes of oppressive agrarian societies exploit this "fear of the stranger" to maintain control over the individual citizen. Thus it upsets us greatly when the stranger is born of our own families and communities, and we tend to see even the most harmless eccentric people as useless, dangerous, and possessed by demons.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. Harmless?
"this odd person would at least have some sort of life until" they "end up as food for the grizzly bears or tigers"

Impressive rationalization.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. We internalize a society's fears and superstitions, especially those of oppression.
Does something like genital mutilation make any sense? No, yet it is done with the approval of mothers and grandmothers.

Does it make sense to drug every kid who can't sit still in a boring and repressive classroom environment?

Does it make sense to jail drug addicts instead of treating them for their drug addictions?

I always start with the premise that humans are not rational creatures. Look around, does any of this make sense? People do what they do, and then they rationalize it. That's the way it is for everything people do.

Those who are wired such that they cannot conform to the existing society's framework of rationalization often suffer severe mistreatment or punishment grossly irreconcilable with the small disruptions they cause to the social order.

Often when people are depressed and anxious it is because their society is depressing and anxiety provoking, especially if they have internalized social rationalizations that blind them to the causes of their own depression and anxiety. They don't need a pill, they need a gentle and more accepting society.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #64
75. ...and yet.... Often the behavior originates ...
wholly twixt the individuals ears, completely independent of attributes of the society to which they belong. Itz not about disruptions to the social order, but rather basic quality of life. 'Repeatedly runin 'round the neighborhood babbling incoherently buck nekkid' is no way to live in any society.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #75
91. That's why I take meds...
I used to run and run and run, dozens of miles some days, and once barefoot until my feet were bleeding, which was sorta hard to explain to the cops past midnight... And now my knees are shot, so I can't run like that.

For a while I was functional, and then not, but it's still MINE to measure my own functionality and happiness. If I'm unhappy and disfunctional I hope I've got the social support structures to pick me back up (support structures I've learned to nurture...) but it's not anyone else's business to decide if my life's "no way to live in any society" unless I'm clearly a danger to others. Honestly, I'd rather be a dumpster diving hobo talking to the animals, than submit to ECT. But then, even at my worst I don't tend to self-injury or suicide, or I wouldn't be here.

Still, the ONLY things that are important are those that are "wholly twixt the individuals ears, completely independent of attributes of the society to which they belong.

Otherwise we might as well be ants or borg.
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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #91
109. You can count me among those that consider...
obsessively running my feet bloody, livin like a hobo lost in my own mind and certainly unable to measure my own functionality or happiness as 'self-injury'. I'd certainly want my kinfolk to do whatever possible to get me back on my medz and coherent cuz that taint livin.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #109
113. Those are also times of experiencing things I might otherwise have missed.
There's a lot of the world you don't see driving along in a comfortable car.

Crazy opens the window to places sane people won't travel. Crazy climbs out into the nightmare and gets lost there.

Memories, all what makes a person, are odd things. We are not the product of our experiences, we are the creation of a process of selection and destruction of memory. We can't remember everything. I think sanity is a measure of the memories you discard. Throw away all the crap and you are manic, keep all the crap and you are depressed. Try to keep it all, hold it all in and connect it, the good, bad, random, the hallucination and you are psychotic. Throw too much away and you are dull and ignorant.

Sometimes I'd run because I was in a depression so deep there was nothing in me. I was a black hole. I can never remember that nothing, and I can only piece together the pain I caused others by it later, by abstraction.

There would be emptiness and then I'd be gliding along seeing everything, breathing everything, part of everything, and any pain I felt was inconsequential. What I remember most now, years later, is the gliding.

Even when I'm functional I'm unable to measure my own functionality. I imagine it would be nice to live in the sort of self that doesn't have to worry about drifting off. I'd love to cast aside my meds and set off in some direction with the confidence my boat wasn't going to tip over and spill me into the random currents. But part of me wants to fall into the water just to see where I'd wash up.

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yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. I'm certainly familiar with those waters.
Extrie required flotation devices can be a major pita all their own. A majority of my mother and her motherz siblings (15 total) exhibited symptoms of schizoid personalities, at least a third were fully schizophrenic and a fifth succumbed bodily in some way shape or form to the disease. All in all, I'd gladly trade a such a family history for predispositions to cancer, diabetes *and* Alzheimers. Hell, ya could throw in pattern baldness and teh gayness to boot and it'd still be an upgrade, cuz at least my progeny and I could be confident of dominion over our own minds.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
13. I'm going to reserve judgement on this
A person I know who was suicidal (she actually attempted suicide several times) went thru a series of shock treatments. A side effect was a significant loss of memory for a time but her bouts with very deep depression ceased. She has said that she'd never want to go thru with the shock treatements again but the alternative in her case was either death from suicide or years in a mental institution.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Life is radical uncertainty
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 11:32 PM by undergroundpanther
and what risks one takes is up to the person.

Look, if you understand what freedom is,and that it is messy and it isn't always safe,You will get it that ECT and psych drugs being forcibly applied to a person, without consent by law is fascist behavior.Fascist behavior in a free country, is despicable.Even if it is applied to one of those weird "crazy" people that make some people feel uncomfortable it is still fascist behavior.

The person who got ECT you speak of was it forced on her?
Or did she consent to it and just get lucky?

ECT is like playing Russian roulette with your mind.Some win, some win a small relief ,others leave the shock sessions broken.Nobody should be forcing that kind of risk on another person's mind or body against their will.Period.That is the definition of TORTURE.It violates consent,the will, the mind, and the body of the person being forced..
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #19
24.  I learned long ago...
not to make judgments based on info posted on forums.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #24
45. That's often
a good idea!
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
30. People shold be told the truth about the side effects and then decide.
The man behind the oft-written lie that only 1/200 suffer permanent memory/cognitive loss recently admitted that ALL patients suffer these deficits after treatment with ect.

Some people would rather deal with the damage than suffer the hells of depression and so on, but at least they would be giving "informed consent".

Maintaining that this rather primitive procedure is "safe and effective" to avoid massive malpractice suits is a black spot on Psychiatry. At least with lobotomies patients and their families knew what to expect.
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
22. Can we just do it on the ShamWow Guy instead?
I'd really rather not see him imitating Sammy Petrillo imatating Jerry Lewis on that freaking infomercial ever again...
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. This is no damned joke!
Go soak your head in a bucket of compassion, then come back and post something constructive, will you?

Or how about channeling that energy into ONE phone call to help this man?
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. Can we also do it to that guy who has the beard and screams in his commercials?
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
31. I'm not hearing the whole story.

I've seen electro-shock therapy work, in three different people. I regard it as very effective. Usually its used when the person stops eating, doesn't sleep, and seeks suicide at their first opportunity, and after the arsenal of meds didn't work.

I've also seen, in my immediate family, tragic results of going off treatment for bipolar disease. My mother went off her medications against my warnings, with tragic results.

The fact that the site puts "bipolar" in quotes worries me. It's not a quote-so-called-disease-unquote. It's very real, and in many cases, very dangerous to the patient. What is this guy's history, really? I realize its confidential, but he himself should say something about why he's getting these ECT, or give permission to see his records. That's only fair. I feel I'm being asked to go into this blind.

It isn't going to do the mindfreedom cause much good if he stops getting ECT and then commits suicide. That's not a success in human rights.

No, thanks. I'm sitting this one out till I find out more about his case.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #31
61. Mindfreedom ...

Do a google search of David Oakes. You'll figure out more of his agenda and that of Mindfreedom. Basically he and they are of the crowd that believes that mental illness (a phrase he believes is inaccurate) should not be treated medically.

He's very good with the public relations, though. His language is guarded, and he's careful to offer tidbits suggesting some members of his organization(s) are receiving medical treatment for mental disorders and that, for him, it's about having choices. Choice is fine, expected, but, imo, that's not what he really means. Based on his history and the code language he uses (which is used often and more directly by anti-psychiatry crusaders) he seems to want to remove the choice of having these problems treated medically, thus a long-standing opposition to pharmaceutical treatment.

It's very hard simply to dismiss him because, as in this case, he tackles these dramatic instances typically involving involuntary treatment. He does have a point there if you go through the history of the incidents in which he and a previous organization was involved. IOW, they go after situations where the lines the general public are able to see are either very unclear or where someone obviously screwed up. A search of Lexis-Nexis going back to 1999 has his name turning up quite often in stories that involve ECT, which is controversial and certainly makes for good drama when things go bad. This seems to be his initiating issue.

I'm not offering a definite opinion this specific case either. Based on the single newspaper story about it, Ray has some serious problems and is a danger to himself and others. His manic episodes are often violent while his depressive ones involve self-mutilation. So, he does need treatment, and we just don't know the details of this case that led to this decision.



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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
80. 15% of diagnosed BPs commit suicide. THAT is a fact.
I am so sorry about your mom.
My daughter was recently diagnosed and the last year and a half
has been the most terrifying of my life.
First a LONG bout of horrific depression followed by a
TERRIFYING bout of mania.
BPs are in extreme danger when in the peak of mania.

I would have tried ANYTHING to get her back, including ECT
had medication not worked.

We are still at the beginning of the journey and my WORST
fear is that she will stop medication, the number one problem
in treating BP. The patient feels their life has returned to normal
and that they no longer need medication.

That is when the true danger comes.

Again, my heart goes out to you.
It is such a helpless feeling to watch the disease destroy
a loved one.
I have never felt such pain or fear and hope never to again.
So far, my daughter is quite good about taking her daily dose.
My big fear is what am I going to do if the meds stop working...
I'll cross that bridge when and if it appears.
Living with a BP loved one is to acknowledge living in
constant vigilance for the rest of your life.

BHN

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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #80
107. The other thing is this:
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 04:54 PM by caseymoz
In the years after Prozac and other SSRIs were introduced, the suicide rate in the general population fell by 15 percent for the first time in decades. This is according to a study described in The Economist magazine. Now the rate of teen suicides increased again once in the years since the medications carried warnings for parents that the meds might cause it.

The study indicates that the drugs saved many lives. It seems to me that when the illness causes suicide, that when it happens after medication, you shouldn't necessarily conclude that the medication caused it. Even if it does occasionally, the study indicated that on the balance, SSRIs saved many more lives. Most likely, the medication failed. And the suicide happens a lot immediately after the person stops treatment. The effect is called "rebound."

I'm Bipolar, it runs heavily in both sides of my family, before it had a name or treatment. I stick to my medications no matter what, because I've seen quite a few times the results of going off them.

About ECT: most times it does work, but nobody knows why.
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davidthegnome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:14 AM
Response to Original message
33. No way I'm sitting this one out
As soon as they open up I'm giving them a call.

Post traumatic stress is my diagnosis too, undergroundpanther. I have been treated (though "mistreated" would be more accurate) since I was about 13 with psychiatric drugs, a variety of chemical cocktails. When I was 18 (I'm 24 now) I was in a psych ward for five days. A young lady there who was very depressed and suicidal was receiving voluntary ECT.

Fortunately I got to know her in between treatments. Lovely young woman from South Korea, adopted into an American family in infancy. She was very bright, compassionate - and it was her advice and her empathy that helped me make it through more than anything else.

The ECT wiped out her memory base - despite conversations we'd had, hours long, chess games we'd played, the sharing of our life stories... she couldn't remember me at all once she was finally released from the hospital. It is my understanding that she committed suicide a couple of years later.

ECT is a barbaric practice, it has no place in the treatment of the mentally ill.

As one of the mentally ill - Ray's story may have been my own. I have my ups and downs, and I can imagine the sort of situation that might have placed me in similar circumstances. This is indeed fascism, tyranny, and those of us who are aware of it and sit idly by will have no one to help us should we ever end up in the same situation.

Of course, generally speaking, our mental health institutions are guilty of a great deal more than this - past and present. But this is one of those times when we can, and should do something about it.

I'll be glad to help you out with this in any way I can.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:20 AM
Response to Original message
34. Very early in my career
I had a patient that was receiving EST...I had to take him down to the surgery suite and he begged me the entire way not to do it.
It was terrible. :(
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. I have always been under the impression that ECT is VOLUNTARY? It requires "informed consent" ...
before the procedure.

Nothing is hard and fast. I've been blessed to have the opportunity to counsel those who suffered from drug abuse and/or addiction. Through networking with my colleagues, I've been told about those who have benefited from ECT and others who have NOT.

I don't think it presumptive to suggest that most Americans believe that the conduct of ECT should always be an "informed choice" by the patient.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Informed consent only applies if someone is considered mentally fit
Many times the families or guardians make these decisions.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 05:03 AM
Response to Original message
37. I had ECT done.
I was at the end of my rope, and thought I'd try it. I wouldn't do it again for all the money or whatever in the world.
I think it is still too "crude" a tool. I do not think it has been calibrated enough to suit a person's needs, and frankly
I don't think it ever will be. There are devices now being tried, that have been used effectively in treating seizure disorders.
They send a very low level of current to a specific part of the brain. It is still all in a crude stage if you ask me.

As far as "brain chemistry" being debunked, I have talked to neuroscientists who would take issue with that. I also don't think
it's complete hooey, but that is an argument for another time.

I have always been deathly afraid that I am going to be taken against my will and put in a hospital. The laws vary. I have been
hospitalized twice, and I signed myself in. I got well enough after a few weeks to leave. I didn't look at it as being locked in.
I thought of it as keeping the world locked out until I could deal with it. However, if I was there against my will, any treatment
would be ineffective. I would be so blazing mad and scared that I don't think therapy would work.

I have a pact with a friend. If I am ever taken against my will, he will get a lawyer and get me out. People are well meaning. I
understand the desire for someone to get better. However, the psychological ramifications of locking someone up against their will
is bad enough. To then put them through ECT would be devastating in a lot of cases.

I have dealt with depression for over 30 years. I have seen the way the treatment has evolved. I never tell anyone I am being treated.
I don't tell them because I believe their minds go directly to those incidents where people who are mentally ill have done horrific
things. I wince every time I read about someone who does something horrific, and they say they were being treated for a mental illness.
We all get lumped together. The only person I have ever wanted to hurt has been myself.

The part of depression that is really devastating is the fact that most people realize what effect they are having on those who are trying
to help. I knew they were going through hell too and it was my fault. I couldn't help it. That fact brings great guilt. You know the damage
you are causing, but you can't do anything about it.

I remember the psychiatrist from the show M*A*S*H. I am paraphrasing what he said. He told Hawkeye that anger turned inwards was depression.
Anger turned outwards was rage. Anger turned sideways was humor. I try to turn it sideways. That is a code word for me. "Sideways."

I think ECT should be the LAST resort if it is even considered. I get the willies thinking about it. It reminds me of that saying from Vietnam.
"We had to destroy the village to save it."

Thanks for putting up with my ramblings. One thing that does help me is DU. If I feel a twinge, posting or just reading here helps. That's the
other part about depression. The first time I went through it wasn't the worst thing. The worst was when it came again. Then I realized I would
never be free from it. A normal down spell can almost make me frantic because I think it's back.Once it gets rolling, it's all over.

Thanks.

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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. What makes you think you would ever be taken
against your will? Check out the laws in your state. Here, in VA, if you are over 14, you cannot be committed without your consent. I don't particularly think that is a good idea because it leaves parents with suicidal children without any options, but I would gather you are older than 14.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #42
51. I do check out the laws.
In SC a person can be hospitalized involuntarily. It can be done on an emergency basis or through a legal hearing.
There would be an exam to determine if I could be held. I also could be served and have to prove to someone I was
okay in a court of law.
VA appears to be reassessing their laws because of the VA Tech incident.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. But wouldn't you have had to show cause for that?
Harm to yourself or someone else?

Even in CT when I was practicing, I couldn't just up and commit someone. There had to be a reason. A very solid reason.
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Are_grits_groceries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Yes. Someone would have to show cause.
However, I don't put anything past a cousin of mine. In addition, she is in the mental health system and knows the ropes. Call me paranoid, but you don't know her.
She is the type of person who thinks she always knows what's best for everybody and will take action. I no longer have anything to do with her. I will go in voluntarily or I will listen to my friend. He isn't cahooting with anybody.
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Leftist Agitator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
44. What did this guy do to be court-ordered to undergo ECT?
Surely a criminal offense occurred, or there was a suicide attempt, or something...

The FAQ at the link says nothing about what he did to become subject to court-ordered treatment.
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. good question. what did he do?
I knew a man with bipolar disorder who lived in a public elderly apartment building. when he took his meds he was fine, but often he would stop and he got very angry, physically disruptive, and threatened violence.

A court order was issued to force him to take his meds, this was not easy - and it shouldn't be- but I witnessed myself how much better he was when he took his meds.Calmer, and you could have a conversation with him. He needed the medication because of his disorder.





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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. I posted info up-thread ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

We are not going to know precisely what the circumstances are unless he chooses to reveal them, as in what led to this specific decision.

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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
93. No real criminal offenses. Just "a danger to himself and others." Fairly typical assignation.
Giving someone ECT to stop them from punching a window when manic is a bit of overkill.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #93
97. Not when all else has failed, in my experience.
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 03:49 PM by BeHereNow
Medications have not yet helped him.
ECT is the last resort in BP.

I don't like that it is being forced, but I understand the argument
for it by those caring for him who are trying to save his life, if all else has
been tried and has been unsuccessful.

BHN
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. This should be the last resort. Much safer imo.
Thanks to the drug-wars this information goes largely unknown. Opioid were the gold standard pre-1950s. There are currently mu-ovoids available that do not make people high but offer the same benefits.

http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/reprint/19/4/449....
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flying_wahini Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
46. My 82 yo father in law had a round of ECT this year....

and actually had some good results for a while.

As barbaric as it sounds, he had no pain with it....

and it is about the only thing that has worked for him; even tho

the results did not last....

Go figure.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
49. ECT should be banned. Period
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 08:16 AM by Odin2005
50 years ago shrinks said lobotomies were "safe" and "effective." It's all just vicious ways for society to try to "cure" us neurodiverse people by force. Can't have people think differently, it might threaten the Corporate-Capitalist power structures.
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RobinA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #49
67. Oh Please
Tell most clinically depressed people or people who are living on the street because they blew their good job and salary while manic that they are "neurodiverse." Hey man-with-cancer, we aren't going to treat you, your cells are just growth-diverse.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #67
85. There are medications to help with Bipolar and Depression.
I take Paxil for depression myself. What I mean by "neuro-diverse" are folks with such things as high-functioning Autism/Asperger's Syndrome, "ADHD", etc. 40 years ago a person with Asperger's such as myself would of often been given some BS label like "Schizoid" or "Schizotypal" or "Childhood Schizophrenia", drugged up on anti-psychotics, and given ECT against our will. I know an older guy recently diagnosed with Asperger's who was really messed up by anti-psychotics and ECT after he was diagnosed with "Childhood Schizophrenia" in his early teens.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #49
78. Banned in Italy . And in Texas it is a crime to shock minors
I believe the sixteen and under law is in Alabama as well.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
50. Cruel but not unusual treatment and anyone who practices it should have one of those electrodes
implanted permanently to their ass!
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happychatter Donating Member (619 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
52. When Behavioral Scientists agree about a Diagnosis or appropriate Therapy
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 09:37 AM by happychatter
it's because they are in Court, lying to cover up for each other

mostly, it's pseudo science, and when it's not, it's still for sale

They will say anything you want them to about any ONE you want them to if the money is right

edited to insert: When their client is the state, they give the state what they want, for the return contractual referral service... the repeat business

They are WHORES

Judge mandated ECT?

Only in fucking Minneapolis... I swear to god

makes me want to throttle a yuppie MF

Where is Randall P. McMurphy when you need him, eh?
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #52
95. I agree. All the sons of Ewen Cameron and his torture experiments.
We should know now that this doesn't work. As in, at all.
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
58. K&R
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
63. Protip
Mindfreedom International is probably run by Scientologists. LOL
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. The Scientoligists only recruit the mild to moderate whack...
...those who can be somewhat functional without psych meds or therapy within a very controlled social framework.

People who are truly out on the fringes frighten the Scientologists, and they won't have anything to do with them.

If you are the sort who runs down the streets of Hollywood stark naked chasing angels they don't want you in their club, probably even less so than the Mormons or Catholics would want you, even if you really are seeing angels.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #63
74. Hemingway and Plath weren't scientologists
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 01:40 PM by Artiechoke
Both committed suicide after ect. In the case of Hemingway, it was the reason for his suicide. He could no longer write.





edit: typo
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
87. I did a little searching on this and found:
Forced treatment - including ECT is legal in 42 states.
It is not a common treatment, but it is considered a valid treatment by a vary large number of mental health professionals (Psychiatrists).
It is considered a teatment of last resort by some, but not by a majority - many think it is very effective against clinical depression.

Personally, I worked in a state psychiatric hospital and have not heard of ECT being done there, at least not for 25 years or so. It was evidently quite common before the 1980's.

Personally, again - the state of mental health care in the US is primitive, degrading, and barbaric. If you are unfortunate enough to have one of several very serious long term mental illnesses you may find yourself deprived of all human rights, even the most basic,the right to handle your own money, even pocket money, etc.

Remember - this situation and all situations endured by mental patients are the result os laws passed by state legislatures, usually swayed by drug manufacturers, lobbyinst, insurance groups, doctor's organizations, and very occasionally patient advocate groups.

Patient and staff welfare comes last.

mark
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #87
114. Exactly.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
89. ECT should be banned.
It's basically deliberate brain damage. You're deliberately frying brain cells and hoping you get lucky and fry some cluster of neurons that triggers a mental illness.

It's dangerous, it frequently doesn't work, and it frequently destroys memory, personality, and occasionally kills people.

It should be in the dustbin of history along with the icepick lobotomy.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #89
100. It is highly profitable, you know.
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 04:01 PM by Artiechoke
You've actually described how it "works". The so-called educated people who administer ect claim they don't know why or how it "works". They lie.
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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
112. This story is Bullshit
There is no way this guy is going in for his 35th ECT. These treatments run in a series which usually number between eight and twelve.

35 of these and his brain would be jello. Like others who have commented here I think this group has ulterior motives. Ray or Samual doesn't really exist most likely.



http://www.mind.org.uk/Information/Booklets/Making+sens...


The ECT Handbook says there should not be a pre-set number of treatments, but that you should be assessed after each treatment to see if another one is necessary.

Most people respond to a course of between four to eight treatments, although older people and men may need more. Its usual to stop after eight, or so, treatments, if there has been no change at all in the patients symptoms, although The ECT Handbook suggests a maximum of 12. The treatments should normally take place twice a week, although three treatments may be given in one week in severe or life-threatening illness.
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