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2 confirmed deaths in San Diego as F-18 crashes into two homes

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Spectral Music Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:54 PM
Original message
2 confirmed deaths in San Diego as F-18 crashes into two homes
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081208/ap_on_re_us/militar...

SAN DIEGO An military fighter jet preparing to land at a Marine base crashed near a school and a busy highway in a densely populated San Diego neighborhood Monday, destroying two homes. The pilot of the F/A-18D Hornet jet ejected safely, according to a statement from Marine Corps Air Station Miramar. San Diego fire and rescue spokesman Maurice Luque said he doesn't know whether anyone on the ground was injured.

The plane crashed near Interstate 805 around noon Monday as it prepared to land at the base, said Ian Gregor, a Federal Aviation Administration spokesman. The crash occurred two miles away.

Traffic kept flowing on I-805, the California Highway Patrol said. Students at nearby University City High School were kept locked in classrooms, but there was no damage to the campus and no one was injured, said Barbara Prince, a school secretary.

Two houses were destroyed and one damaged, the Marine base statement said.



_____________________

One of the homes is thought to be vacant. The other had 4 people in it: a mother, a grandmother and two children. The husband has been notified.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Awful news...
I weep for the family.

:-(
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Spectral Music Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The pilot was 2 miles from Miramar
If you look at a map, he was almost there. Miramar is to the east of the 805 freeway and the pilot crashed just to the west of the freeway. The pilot was in training and was supposed to land on the aircraft carrier in the ocean. As it was, he didn't think he could land and tried to make it back to the base.

http://www.10news.com/news/18229447/detail.html
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Spectral Music Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Video:
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. Sad
Can't help but think of an earlier discussion today: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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W_HAMILTON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Not sure if this has been discused elsewhere...
...does anyone have any opinion of the pilot who was flying the plane? I'm not sure what to think, so don't take this as me having a stance one way or the other. But I was wondering if any people are angry about what the pilot did? Given the choice between spare his own life, or eject safely but have his plane crash into a residential area, thus killing several people...which do you choose? I thought that pilots do their best to avoid residential areas if they are about to crash, and I thought I've read stories about how pilots have given their own lives to avoid crashing into a populated area, killing even more people.

What are other people's reactions to this? Again, I'm not sure what to think. It's unfortunate that it led to deaths on the ground.
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DonEBrook Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Pilots are just people and act according to their own proclivities.
Some would and of course have stayed with their craft and made every effort to keep from hitting anyone on the ground...and some just punch out and don't care.
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Spectral Music Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Not so in this case. The pilot was in training and was being guided over radio
by a training officer.

http://www.10news.com/news/18231819/detail.html# -

...The aircraft, on a training mission off the carrier Abraham Lincoln, was ordered to fly to Miramar rather than return to the flattop after one of its engines failed.

The pilot, described as a lieutenant in his 20s, had been on a training flight and was heading back to base when the accident occurred.

Military officials blamed the crash on equipment malfunction.

"We don't know exactly what was the cause of the problem he was having, and ... we will be conducting a thorough safety investigation to find that out," Marine Corps Col. Chris O'Connor told reporters Monday afternoon...
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bdab1973 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. So, Mr. F/A-18 expert...
if you were in a jet with two failed engines, no hydraulics running, and all your electronics are dead (because of no power), how would you "make every effort" to keep hitting anyone on the ground after the other engine failed?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. We don't know what was the problem with the plane
but he was supposed to land on the Lincoln, at lest 20 miles from where he crashed, when he declared the emergency

From the description of where the plane came down and how, he MIGHT have been trying to bring this in for an emergency landing at the base, as he was almost lined for it. And as long as he did an honest effort... if the plane went completely out of control there is notihng else he can do

That will come out in the investigation though. Those black boxes are very accurate
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Spectral Music Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
9.  The pilot actually took off from the Lincoln. Both engines cut out.
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 07:05 PM by Spectral Music


The first engine cut out soon after the plane took off. At that point, the pilot was guided to Miramar. The second engine cut out as he was approaching the base, about 2 miles from the runway. If you look at the pictures on yahoo, the pilot almost made it. The Yoon house was on the other side of the 805 freeway from the runway at Miramar. Another couple of minutes and he'd have been able to clear the freeway. Unfortunately, the engine gave out and the pilot had to eject.



From the local news today:

http://www.10news.com/news/18231819/detail.html# -

"The aircraft, on a training mission off the carrier Abraham Lincoln, was ordered to fly to Miramar rather than return to the flattop after one of its engines failed.

The pilot, described as a lieutenant in his 20s, had been on a training flight and was heading back to base when the accident occurred.

Military officials blamed the crash on equipment malfunction.

"We don't know exactly what was the cause of the problem he was having, and ... we will be conducting a thorough safety investigation to find that out," Marine Corps Col. Chris O'Connor told reporters Monday afternoon"
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Spectral Music Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. The pilot was training and was guided by radio by a superior officer
From everything I have heard, the first engine cut out soon after takeoff from the aircraft carrier (USS Lincoln) and the pilot was guided back to Miramar. He would have been fine except that the second engine (Navy jets have 2) also cut out as the pilot was approaching Miramar. The plane crashed only two miles from the runway. There are pictures on yahoo that show how close the runway was: it was basically across the 805 freeway from the neighborhood where the plane crashed. Sadly, with both engines out, there was nothing that could be done and the pilot was told to eject.
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bdab1973 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Superior Officer = Landing Signals Officer (LSO)
The LSO isn't necessarily a "superior officer", often times they are the same rank or even junior to the pilot. The LSO is a standard for Navy aviation...Air Force pilots don't have an LSO. They help guide an airplane onto the runway, and it's only really required for a carrier landing. But often times the Navy will put LSOs at normal runways too for training purposes, and to assist emergency aircraft.

At the carrier, I'm sure when the pilot mentioned he was having engine problems the LSO waved him off and told him to return to base. At that point, he would switch frequencies to San Diego Approach Control, or be handed off to Miramar GCA (Ground Control Approach), both of which are air traffic control entities that control all traffic in and around San Diego. The would provide the pilot with "vectors" (direction to fly in) to be sequenced for landing, and if the pilot declared an emergency (very likely he did) he would be number 1 for landing. Miramar GCA would clear him to land and he would either stay with Miramar, or switch to the Miramar tower frequency or the LSO frequency.

Generally, ATC won't tell a pilot to eject, because they have no "eyes on" the situation. If the pilot was talking to an LSO on final, the LSO could make the call over the radio to punch out, but the pilot would already know (based on both engines being out) that ejecting was his only option.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. He would have died in that crash in that neighborhood
The plane was clearly going down. On the other hand, I heard a very upset elderly former navy pilot saying yesterday, he could have chosen to fly over the Pacific. Now none of us including the old pilot really know the condition of the aircraft, but he insisted that he did have that option rather than flying over a populated area.
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bdab1973 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. He couldn't make it to the Pacific...
Initial information is he lost power in both engines on final...the airplane was low, slow and had gear/flaps extended. The flight controls are hydraulic and computer controlled...no engines = no flight controls. No choice but to punch out.

Initially he had to to shut down on engine...the airplane can fly perfectly fine on one engine. It's not real common to lose one engine, much less both. For some reason (the safety board will investigate this) the second engine failed.

I'm a military pilot and I've had to shut engines down (and had them fail on me too). Having that happen doesn't mean it's the end of the world, the aircraft is still fully controllable, and still has plenty of power to make it back to land. I've landed MANY times with an engine shut down, and it's something we train for regularly. So at first, there was no reason for the pilot to think he couldn't just take the jet back to base and let maintenance look it over.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Thanks for that
I don't know the area but I heard the old navy pilot and wondered if he had a point.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Umm.. Your two statements in the same post don't really quite fit..
"It's not real common to lose one engine, much less both."

"I've landed MANY times with an engine shut down,"



If it's "not real common to lose one engine" then why have you landed MANY times with an engine shut down?

Not attacking you, I just don't understand what you are trying to say, do you deliberately shut down one engine to practice? If that is so, then it seems to me there is a distinctly non-zero chance that you are going to lose the other engine and then be forced to do what this unfortunate pilot had to do.

I have a great deal of sympathy for everyone involved in this tragic accident, I'm sure the pilot will be playing this out in his head for the rest of his life, trying to figure out what, if anything, he could have done differently. And of course, the poor husband/father will never be the same.

Damn, my screen is going blurry... Oh, wait.. It's not the screen.



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bdab1973 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Here's better context...
It's not COMMON to have an engine fail. I've got close to 3,000 hours flying, and hundreds if not thousands of sorties logged. I've shut down or had engines fail five times in my career. So it's not common, but it does happen, especially with some of the older aircraft.

I flew UH-1 Hueys at first, and those are single-engine helicopters...never had an engine fail, but I only flew them for 3 years and only logged about 300 hours flying them.

Then I went through fixed-wing pilot training, and following that I flew C-21 Learjets for 3 years, and logged about 1,000 hours flying those. I had to shut an engine down once, for a false fire indication.

Now, I fly C-130s, and most of the C-130s I've flown are C-130Es, which were made from 1961 to 1964. They are old, but they also have four engines instead of two. I've shut down or lost an engine on the C-130 four times, and I've got over 1,000 hours flying them.

So while it's not common to have an engine failure, it does happen, and over a period of years, I've collected almost a half-dozen no-kidding engine failure experiences. I do have friends who have flown for as long as I have (in other aircraft) that have NEVER lost an engine. But the C-130 is well known for engine shutdowns. Very old technology, old airplanes...it happens with them much more frequently than in other aircraft, such as the KC-10, C-17 or the F-15, etc.

So it's the wording...if losing an engine were common, I'd have hundreds of such stories, but it's not common. But for a typical pilot, I've had to do it more than others.

Regarding practice engine failures, we don't shut the engine down. We reduce the power of an engine to idle to simulate losing that engine. In some cases, in the C-130, we actually shut engines down...it's called a Cruise Engine Shutdown, and we can do it for Functional Check Flights (following major maintenance to ensure the engine works like it's supposed to, and that it can airstart like it's supposed to), and also for certain other system malfunctions, like if an engine-driven hydraulic pump goes bad. The Cruise Engine Shutdown sets the engine up to be restarted later in flight. The C-130 restarts engines while airborne using an airstart procedure, using the slipstream to turn the propeller and thus start the engine. There is no electric starter motor on a C-130.

But for practice 3-engine landings (or as in the C-21 and other aircraft I've flown, single-engine landings), the "failed" engine is still operating, it's just at idle power.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Thanks for the explanation, I understand better now.. n/t
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Spectral Music Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. Updates: (Heartbreaking interview with the man whose wife and children were killed)
A heartbreaking interview.

Dong Yun Yoon is a naturalized citizen from South Korea. He, his wife,Young Mi, their new baby (2 mnths old Rachel) and 15 month old toddler Grace had only been living in the house for a couple of months. Young Mi's mother had only been in the United States one month and was living with her daughter and son-in-law helping with the new baby. Yoon owns a company near San Ysidro and Young Mi was a nurse. This morning, the last body, that of the 15 month old, was found. Accompanied by family members and by members of his church (The Korean United Methodist Church), Yoon gave a brief press conference.

Yoon first explained that he had been notified by a neighbor at work about the jet crashing into his house. He could still not believe that his wife and babies were gone. He called meeting his wife 4 years ago wife from God and was holding back tears as he talked about her. He said that he knew that his wife and babies were in heaven and that God was taking care of them, but his voice broke when he said he did not know what to do. He seemed to be asking others out in the audience who had been through worse to help him know what to do.

Yoon said that he had heard that the pilot was ok and did not blame the pilot. Calling the pilot a "treasure" for the nation, he asked for everyone to pray for the pilot.

Asked about his mother-in-law, Yoon explained that she had come from Korea to help with the children and that she "never complained." Yoon also mentioned that his father-in-law was coming from Korea in the next day or so, and said that he didn't know what to tell his father-in-law and if his father-in-law would ever forgive him.

Yoon tried to answer more questions, but eventually had to leave the microphone, overcome. The pastor, who gave his name as Pastor Shin explained that there would be a service for the family tomorrow night at Korean United Methodist Church.
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underseasurveyor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. That's so sad
:cry: Poor Mr. Yoon, my heart goes out to him.
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Spectral Music Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. It's just awful. My heart just went out to the guy
The worst thing is that there is nothing you can do. :( His church is helping him, but there's no getting over this. All I can think of is to send prayers.
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Spectral Music Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Video
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