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Arranged marriage is morally repugnant and it needs to end. Now.

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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:21 PM
Original message
Arranged marriage is morally repugnant and it needs to end. Now.
I have zero respect for every culture on this Earth that still forces people to marry people they don't even know all to avoid the "evils" of premarital sex. Somebody I have known for a very long time has been emotionally devastated by his so called parents because of this. He doesn't want to marry her. He doesn't even know her. He is a fully grown man, yet emotionally he is still at a level of a 12 year old child. His entire life has consisted of guilt, shame, rejection, and emotional abuse.

And that's what this is, ladies and gentlemen. Make no mistake: It is abuse. This man has never had a girlfriend. He has never touched a woman, he has never kissed a woman, not even on the cheek. He has never even had a conversation with a member of the opposite sex besides his mother and his sister. He can't because he has been told his entire life, from childhood, that it is wrong to do so, and that his future has been set: He will be arranged to marry somebody so why bother to grow up? He has turned to religion (Catholic) as a way to cope with it, and we all know that won't help.

A fundamental human need has been taken away from somebody because of his arrogant, ignorant, unloving, abusive family. And why? Because that's their "culture".

Am I supposed to be tolerant of this nonsense? Am I supposed to have respect for others' ways and beliefs? Not in my book. There are many things on this planet that are grey. There are many things were it's very difficult to decide on what's right and what's wrong. But there are also many things that are black and white, right and wrong, fact and fiction.

Arranged marriages are morally wrong, period. It needs to end.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. WTF are you talking about?
:hi:
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I read the entire OP and I believe the subject is arranged marriages. k+r, n/t
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
53. Oh. How pressing. n/t
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
131. A Diversionary Topic
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think a lot of people don't realize this happens in the US.
Quite a few cultural groups still do it.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Thanks, I was one of those people until very recently
Haven't these people heard of "When in Rome..."?
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Quite a few of my high school classmates had been promised in arranged marriages
One of them really broke my heart, she had a really great boyfriend, the kind a parent would be thrilled about normally, but because she'd been promised to some other family within weeks of her birth, she had to sneak around to see the guy. I don't know what happened after they graduated, I kinda hope they ran off to Reno or something.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. An arranged marriage happened to co-worker of mine from an Egyptian immigrant family
to the wealthy son of a Lebanese family. Both families were Christians. She was devastated because she had a boyfriend she was seeing secretly, an American, whom she thought she loved. Well, she obeyed her family and was married in Paris in a Dior wedding gown. I didn't hear about her for several years, when one day I ran into one of her brothers and asked how she was doing. He said she was happy and had two children. Of course she was living in Paris. How hard could that be? I told her brother that she had another boyfriend before her marriage was arranged. He said the family had found out. It was the reason the marriage was arranged to get her away from him.
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. Actually, you might be surprised to know that these marriages often
work out as well or better than when the mates choose each other. I am very close to a couple that had their marriage arranged in India, They live in the states
now and have been married for 20 years. They are the happiest couple I know. They are both very smart, kind, and loving They are both very committed to
each other and to their children. It is wonderful to see and changed my mind about arranged marriages.

I know that in this case the woman did not want to even get married. She wanted to stay with her parents and care for them. Now she adores marriage and
thinks that everyone should be married!
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I had heard that too. Odd, huh. Happened in America a lot too back
in the day.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. You are being fooled
Do you actually think they would shame their families with a separation/divorce? Do you actually think they would be anything other than "happy" in front of other people?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. Maybe you're the one who is being fooled...
Into thinking it cannot happen. It does happen, and many people here and around the world have grown up with the practice and cherish the old ways. I think it would be horrible to make them stop if that's what they want. The key is that... if they want.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
43. Actually, the reason why it happens...
is that people in arranged marriages aren't going into them with the "in love" blinders on. To them, it's a duty, and one they are committed to, out of respect for their families. Often, these marriages can really and truly be happy, because they almost have to start out as friends first, as they get to know each other.

Being "in love" should be classified as a disease. Seriously. People do the stupidest things when they think they're "in love". Stuff that alcoholics do.

Lots of women who married "for love" choose to stay with men who abuse them...When they're asked why, you know what their response is, right? "Because I looooooovvvve him!

And if that doesn't happen, people who married "for love" sometimes wake up one day to realize that they're no longer "in love". Families can be ruined...devastated...because of marriages built on "love".

And lets not forget the real innocent victims of marriages built "on love"...especially when "love" turns to hate and the innocent children are caught in the middle of something that they never asked for...parents whose hatred for each other is so toxic it's almost deadly.

Marriage for "love" doesn't have that great of a track record either...

:eyes:
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
104. I'd still much rather have had the choice about who I loved
rather than been told by my parents that this was who I was going to have sex with tomorrow night, and then be forever bound to them regardless, for the rest of my life.

Just as many arranged marriages are miserable, as love matches.

Marriage is hard work. Honestly, after 23 years of marriage, I can say that we are still together as much because we are stubborn than anything else. We married for love and I certainly don't classify it as a disease. I met and moved in with my husband within hours of meeting him, and we've been together ever since. Sure there have been highs and lows but that's true of ANY relationship - even platonic ones.

Cultural shame and family disapproval are powerful substitutes for stubborn, and can be the cause for a married couple staying together as anything. Just as many arranged marriages are abusive, hostile, ruined and devastating as love matches make no mistake.

To mythologize arranged marriages is a serious mistake.
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SmileyRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
117. I'm not in an arranged marriage and you just described my marriage
I cannot shame my family with a divorce. I put on the happy face to everyone, including the husband. By all outward appearances he is the perfect husband. Bring his money home, doesn't run around, doesn't beat me up, isn't mean to me at all. He's the perfect gentleman in all respects. My family loves him beyond words. The folks he works with would go to the ends of the earth for him and so would I.

And yet


we sit


for 25 years


not talking


because whatever has his attention at the moment is always more important than me.


I look at his back every night


wondering


if this is what dead feels like.


and no one knows............. not even him.


And you would be shocked at how many marriages of choice are the exact same way.
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JDwho Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #117
121. Wow, so sorry...
I know your marriage wasn't arranged but it sounds like you're in a lot of pain. I hope that doesn't happen to us...but I often think it could, red flags and all, ya know?

Just realized, I've never shared that thought with anyone. Perhaps, I should with him.

On subject: Totally agree that nobody should be "forced" into anything. Wouldn't forced marriage be legalizing rape, in a way (if one party was against the marriage)? And, I'm sure consummation goes along with the "duty" of it all.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #117
128. My first marriage
was similar. Your post made me tear up, actually, because it is just how I felt during the final two years of that horrible marriage. Luckily, I got up the courage to leave. You could too. That dead feeling does go away when you learn to live again.

::hugs::
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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #117
144. Forgive me if I'm too intrusive
but have you tried couples' counseling?

It sounds like he's a pretty good guy but that you both are locked in your separate prisons, not touching, not communicating. And it sounds like you don't express your feelings, what with that need to "put on a happy face."

A good therapist could facilitate opening the lines of communication and really connecting with one another.

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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
120. I am not being fooled.
These two people have built a beautiful life together. They love each other deeply and are each others best friend.
They are raising two wonderful children. I repeat I have never met a couple that is so content with their marriage
especially after twenty years. They spend much time together both alone and with others. They are an inspiration.

In the past I have heard that arranged marriages could be as successful as chosen marriages. I, too, was skeptical.
When you consider that most of us really know little about the person we are "choosing to marry", it probably is
not as much different in the long run.

I am not defending the custom. I am offering an observation that in seeing an arranged marriage up close,
I realize that not only can they work, but maybe as well or better than the alternative.

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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
127. I don't condone arranged
marriages. I wouldn't force it upon my children. But, there are cases where the people are very happy. There are also tragic instances where the wife is abused or mistreated.


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sweetpotato Donating Member (678 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. My family still repeats the old line that slaves in the south were well taken care of and happy
The slaves were happy, I tell you! They had food, clothing and shelter and they were happy. When they got sick the doctor was called. Our ancestors took very good care of *our people* and they were happy.

If they were so happy and treated so well, how come slavery is bad?

Do I need to add the sarcasm tag?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. straw man
Not the same thing at all.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. Exactly the same thing
In both cases people are being forced to do something against their free will.

It's wrong and I can't believe the number of moral relativists in this thread justifying this because people who were arranged appear to be happy.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
63. Sorry to disappoint...
But you are flat wrong. You don't know the minds of every person who has ever had an arranged marriage, and it is absolutely nothing like slavery.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
79. People in the US are not legally being forced to be married.
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #48
108. Yeah, because arranged marriages are selling and buying slaves.
You're getting ridiculous and you sound like an ignorant Republican.
Duckie
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #48
151. You assume that they are all forced against their will
A Indian woman I worked with, a PHD economist, had been married in an arranged marriage, but she actually had some say in who she married. Her parents had asked her what she thought of several of her brothers' friends. These were all boys from "acceptable" families coming from the same homogeneous socioeconomic and religious culture.

In a way, this was likely not all that different than America say 100 years ago. The family had less involvement, but most people found the person they married in the small pool defined by the town they lived in or the church they attended. The idea that she married a boy who she met because her brother brought home a good college friend is a "meeting" that wold not be strange in any of the teen novels read by girls in the 1960s here.

There was a huge difference in that they did not then date for a period of time - though they did communicate. When I knew then they were still happily married with two brilliant charming daughters who had both recently graduated from a very prestigious college.
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Big Blue Marble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #20
119. It is so ridiculous that you compare this marriage to slavery.
This marriage is not slavery! These two people are American citizens who could divorce if they wanted. I am close friends with these people. They are
truly the happiest married couple that I have ever known. They love being married to each other.

Apparently that does not fit with your mindset. I know dozens of married people who chose their spouses and feel that they are in slavery,
stuck in miserable marriages.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #119
129. It is true that in the USA
this is the case, and I will agree that people should willingly be able to have arranged marriages.

However, in some foreign countries, where women have absolutely no rights, arranged marriages can be seen more as forced marriages. Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and other countries around the world have some horrifying stories of forced marriages. I will agree with the OP that those cases are reprehensible.


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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
33. It depends on the family
My family is Indian. Personally, I don't want an arranged marriage. But I don't think that it's entirely black-and-white. I'm not trying to be a "cultural relativist" - I'm just pointing out that "arranged marriages" are very common and there are multiple iterations.

Many families are fairly sensitive to their children's concerns. And so you have a lot of arranged marriages where the parents make a genuine effort to find good matches for their children. Also, many families will give a veto to the children. Often, it's more of an "assisted" marriage, where families try to play matchmaker, but where the final decision is up to the couple. A lot of Indian marriages are like this, and it's not an entirely new thing either; many marriages were like this even in the past.

Others, however, are forced into them. And in more patriarchal or conservative families, the women aren't given any say.

Plus, there's the fact that some people aren't suited to marriage. And there's the fact of homosexuality, which often means people forced into marriages that are harmful both to themselves and to their spouse.

So there's a pretty wide spectrum. I can't say I have anything against more open arranged marriages -- ones where the potential bride and groom are consulted, where the children make the final choice. I do have a problem with forcing people into marriages without any say from either the potential bride or either potential spouse.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
46. They do sometimes work out, but I don't think that makes it OK
People own themselves and should have a right to make this kind of choice themselves.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
81. the ends do not justify the means
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
124. My maternal great-grandparents
had an arranged marriage. They hated eachother for 55 years - no physical abuse or anything - just no love or affection. Grandma was 15 years old when she got married.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
149. When people grow up expecting them...
...even dreaming of them, they aren't abuse. Many, many people find fulfillment in these relationships--or they fake it so well that even they may not be aware of a problem. There needs to be an escape hatch, however, for those who don't choose to participate.

The case the OP cites sounds like chicken sadness wrapped in dominance duck, stuffed into a denial turkey.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. so should genital mutilation should be severely criminalize >>Link>>
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. They need to hurry up and legislate morality.
If only we could pass some sort of proposition that would ban certain marriages we find morally offensive.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Moral relativism
That's what your problem is.

This is a case where moral relativism fails. Certain things are wrong, and forcing people into marriage is wrong.
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. I'd argue that moral absolutism can also be wrong...
I have an insight into this as I have my own beliefs for me (which are that I'd prefer to choose if I get married. I choose not to.) but I also have distant family (3rd and 4th cousins) back in the old world (in Beirut.) who are shocked by that. They're thrilled that their families cared enough to arrange marriages for them and think our ways are silly and harmful. We argued to great length before we had to agree to disagree. (I was of the "whatever makes you happy" line-of-thought, they OTOH were as adamant that non-arranged marriage is decadent and anti-family as you are that they are wrong.)

One of the hardest lessons I learned is that we (westerners) don't have a monopoly on the best approach or worldview...even when we think we do. Our opinions...not always so great. Our ways...are not the rest of the world's ways. Such dismissiveness of other cultures and moral absolutism leads to folly such as the Bush policy of spreading democracy (even to those who don't want it) and manifest destiny.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. Perspective is everything...
It would be wrong to take the practice away from those who embrace it... that would be every bit as bad as forcing a marriage on someone. It's like Christian missionaries going to America, or Africa, and putting clothes on the "savages" and forcing them to abandon their own culture and adopt one that is foreign and incompatible with their way of life.

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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. It is wrong to force people into an institution that they do not wish to be a part of .
It is wrong to force people to remain in an institution they do not wish to be a part of.

It is also wrong to forcibly remove people from institutions that they willingly take part in, (with certain common sense limitations)

I have no love for arranged marriages, and remember a classmate who was (over her strong objections) being pressured into one at the end of High School. That said, if banning same-sex marriage is wrong, because it enforces one groups version of morality as a universal set of values, then banning arranged marriage, plural marriage or common-law marriage would be equally wrong for the same reason.

Lynyrd, it would seem that you have come to the conclusion that your values are demonstrably superior to those you disagree with. Congratulations, if only you could get us all to agree. Well, if we're too stupid to do so of our own volition... will you force us? And if you do so, what makes you different from those who you condemn.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Wish I could rec a post...
Very well said.
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. Thx.
n/t
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
66. Do you think that people should be forced to marry someone they don't want to..
here in the U.S.?

Should I be able to force my daughters
into an arranged marriage that they
don't want? How about threatening them
with violence if they don't comply?

If parents suggest future mates, that's
one thing. A lot of "arranged" marriages
in India these days are virtually the
same as an E-Harmony date. Parents and
"children" look at perspective mates on the
internet and arrange to meet.

I don't see anything wrong with it IF the
child gets FULL right of refusal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_corr...

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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. I agree, if the child gets refusal rights, there is nothing wrong with it.
According to our laws, the child has those rights. Cultural customs are something completely different, they are very difficult to legislate, and usually a bad idea to try. You can prosecute a father or brother for an honor killing, but the prosecution is for murder, not for idiocy, superstition, or barbarism. You could prosecute a parent for physical abuse of a child who uses force to convince a child to enter into an arranged marriage. However, you cannot pass any law that would be effective to stop the ostracism, peer pressure, or general stupidity that results from refusal to agree to an arranged marriage due to the traditions of a people. As much as we like to believe otherwise, we cannot, and should not legislate conformity to any particular cultural norm.
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qwlauren35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #66
145. Major Cultural Taboo.
Americans are too individualistic and not sufficiently family-oriented to participate in "forced" arranged marriages.

The temptation to weigh in on this at length is high, but I think I'm just going to agree to disagree with the OP.
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gollygee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
50. This isn't like same-sex marriage
In both cases, the issue is that people should be able to choose their spouse themselves, and not have someone else dictate who is appropriate for them to marry. In both cases, the issue is that people should be able to marry the person they love. Anti-same-sex marriage laws don't allow someone to marry the person they love - they say if you want to marry you have to marry someone of the opposite sex regardless of whom you love. And arranged marriages also don't allow you to marry the person you love - someone else decides whom you should marry for whatever reasons they might have (some reasons might be altruistic but some might not).

BUT:

Aren't there already laws that someone can't be coerced into signing a contract? I'm quite sure someone can't actually be forced to marry someone else. So people are succumbing to pressure from their parents and marrying against their will despite there being no legal way to force them to marry. If the prospective bride or groom doesn't want to go into the marriage, all they have to do is say no - of course that might involve becoming estranged from their families. But people can't be legally forced to be keep their adult kids in their lives either.

Anyway, this issue has nothing to do with the law as it isn't legal to force person A to marry person B already. So I'm not sure what the point of the OP is.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #50
64. What about people who embrace that part of their culture?
We don't know the minds of everyone... and we shouldn't be "putting clothes on savages". This is just like the whole to wear a veil, or not wear a veil... some women feel oppressed by it, and some people embrace the religious significance. It's none of our business unless someone objects.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Honor killing for refusal or leaving the marriage is frequently part of the "culture".
http://www.stophonourkillings.com/index.php?name=News&f...

What do you do if you are forced into marriage at
16, with no job and no where to go?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Not all arranged marriage cultures are like that...
I'm still not over Christian missionaries putting clothes on "savages" and "saving their souls" for their own good.

If people request help with such things, good... fine... perfect. That should not be construed as the right to change the cultures of others.
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
76. Which works when the missionaries go to the savages' country
and try to convert them. By the same token, if those "savages" choose to come to the missionaries' country, they should expect to put on clothes. You adapt to the culture you choose to live in, or you live somewhere else.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #76
86. Are you saying that...
No one should veil themselves just because they live in America? That others should not wash their feet five times a day and pray? That everyone should eat pork because that's how we do it here?

Love it or leave it, huh?

:eyes:

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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. No, but they should follow the laws of the country
they choose to move to--if nudity is illegal, they then wear clothes. Wear your veil, if you choose, but if the state you live in requires a photo of you unveiled in order to get your driver's license, then you either comply or don't drive. If you like that fact that your native country gave you a large measure of control over who your child socializes with, what they learn at school, who they will marry--then do not move to a country that will challenge that control. If your native country allows you to control your spouse's life, and you like it, do not move to a country whose society disagrees.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Arranged marriage is not illegal.
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #89
93. No, and if both parties agree it shouldn't be illegal.
The problem the OP has, I think, is that he/she (sorry, didn't look) thinks that the man is being pressured into this, not that the marriage was arranged--there's more about this downthread.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #88
94. What utter and complete bullshit...
I had a very large control over whom my children associated with, and my mother was the same way about me. Same thing with school... and to this very day you can request an opt out of certain classes for your children... hell, the Jehovah's Witness kids in my school didn't have to say the pledge of allegiance... nor did they have to participate in certain science classes, and certainly not health wherein we were taught about sex.


"do not move to a country whose society disagrees"... that is the most ridiculous thing I've read on DU in a month, and I've read some pretty stupid shit.
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #94
102. Considering how many stupid thing have been posted here in the last month,
I'd say you were overreaching a bit.

Yes, parents do have a certain amount of control over children in this society. They cannot, however, legally marry their 9 year old children off, cut off their daughters' clitorises, allow their daughters to be stoned death if they are unlucky enough to be raped, beat their wives or children for disobedience, refuse to send their children to school, and countless other things that are either legal or socially acceptable in some cultures. Not to say that these things don't happen in the U.S., but not with legal and social approval.

As to moving to a country and adapting--just ask anyone who has emigrated to another country if they have not had to adapt to the dominant culture. If an American woman moves to Saudi Arabia, will she still have the same rights as she had in the U.S.? If you live in a state that has legalized medical marijuana, do you really expect to move to a place where it's still illegal and light up with no consequences? I repeat, if someone chooses to move to another country, they need to accept that some of their own cultural norms may be illegal, or considered inappropriate by their new countrymen.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. You have to follow the law of the country you moved to.
However arranged marriages are not illegal. The man is an adult. By the way how does the OP know the man doesn't want to get married? Did he ask OP for help? I think not.
Basically it' his and his family' business, and if his family arranged a marriage for him, unless he refuses, then that's just the way it is.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #102
139. America is a melting pot and has no definitive culture of its own
We have laws that all people who live or visit must adhere to, but we do NOT have a homogeneous culture.

Methinks you are the one overreaching.
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. No, we don't have a homogeneous culture, for which I'm grateful.
Which is part of the reason I'm fundamentally opposed to arranged marriages. As someone else in this thread has noted, parents who arrange marriages for their offspring don't do so with an eye to diversity. Instead they seek a prospective bride or groom who is racially, culturally, socioeconomically similar to their own child (with religion usually in the mix). Encouraging this insular behavior does nothing more than widen the divisions in our society.

Yes, many parents instinctively urge their children to choose mates like their own families, but there is a fundamental difference between thinking it would be cute if Bobby and Betty Sue got married and telling Bobby and Betty Sue that they have to get married or risk rejection by their families.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #141
153. A child who is raised in a culture of pre-arranged marriages...
Does not always detest the practice. Some, in fact, embrace it. It is none of our business and we should not be making the decision that the practice is illegal. There are some cultural practices that fall within existing laws, and those laws must be adhered to.
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Gwendolyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #139
143. Obviously, you are not the child of immigrants.
Count yourself lucky in some ways, but you are left out in so many ways, in that immigrants beat themselves over the head with it. it's always a sideshow. Emotional and stirring.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #143
152. How do you extrapolate that erroneous assumption from my post?
My 11th great grandmother was on the Mayflower, but there are plenty of more recent immigrants in the outer branches of that family tree that leads to me. I'm not sheltered by any means. What is it exactly you think immigrants beat themselves over the head with?
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
58. I fully support banning marriages that are immoral.
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 05:54 PM by Donald Ian Rankin
I don't want forced marriages or underaged marriages to be legal.

The reason that banning gay marriages is a bad thing is because gay marriages are not immoral, not something more general.

There is nothing ipse facto wrong with arranged marriages, and it's certainly not sensible to ban them, but in practice very often cultures where they are the norm also produce forced marriages.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. How did gay marriage even end up in this discussion?
This has nothing to do with gay marriage. Banning gay marriage is denying people something they want out of their own free will. Arranged marriages are forcing people into something they may not want, and if they do want it, it's only because they've been pressured and shamed into it. Anybody who is bringing gay marriage into this discussion is changing the subject and dodging the issue.
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dem629 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. What are you doing to put an end to it?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
92. How is it any of her business? That person is an adult.
Not related to her.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. I agree with you.
But they're not our cultures.
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Rebubula Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Not our culture
Just because it is not our culture, does not mean we cannot speak out against it.

Some cultural practices are simply wrong. Of course, many cultures in the world think my culture is simply wrong...
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
36. Oh, to speak out about it is fine.
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 04:55 PM by HypnoToad
In countries that allow free speech.

In the country that practices it, I wouldn't be inclined to break their rules in some phony self-righteous stance, much less speak up against it. Especially if they have laws imprisoning those who speak against it or worse. I may not like or agree with it, but I will tolerate it out of basic respect for them.

It may be morally wrong, "arranged marriages", and even Gregor Mendel would throw a tantrum, but I will not stop them from doing it. They need to think outside their box and proceed on their own. Not really my business.

But I will still speak my mind and say what I think or feel, as that is not preventing them from doing. Even if my voice shakes. Wasn't there once a bumper sticker to that effect...

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foxfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. How about arranged civil unions, instead?
:sarcasm:
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. I agree, although the two people I know who have an arranged marriage are quite happy
they have known each other since childhood and get along very well together.

I still don't like the idea though, and I shudder to consider who my parents would have chosen for me....

That said, what about deranged marriages?
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Of course they're happy...
In front of you...
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. that's presumptive and judgmental. n/t
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Deranged, re-arranged marriages
:rofl:
It's probably no worse than "giving" kids multiple "uncle-daddies"..or raising 5 kids with all different fathers & no marriages..who knows?

every family is different, every culture is different.. we are the "new kids on the block" if you consider our longevity as a society :shrug:
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #15
96. I think the OP is confusing arranged marriage and forced marriage
The 2 couples I know who had arranged marriages both met each other beforehand and had the right to veto their parents' pick.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #96
106. The 2 women I know who were in arranged marriages were in the local battered women's shelter
that I volunteer at....

:(
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
18. There is nothing we can do about it. nt
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
22. So you want to deny nerdy Mormon boys their only chance to get laid?
Shame on you.
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Oh, now be nice.
Mrs. Carton chose me.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
27. complain to your parents about it, not us...
grow some huevos...!

but mostly- if you don't want to get married- DON'T.
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zagging Donating Member (531 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
118. No shit
Grow a dick!
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Witchy_Dem Donating Member (496 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
28. There goes your 15 minutes, better go catch it!
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
105. Your Broom Is Here Take A Ride Or Go Sweep Palin's Porch n/t
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
29. What about people who like that part of their culture...
And wish to remain involved in such things?

I don't care if someone wants to do this, it's none of our fucking business. To foist it upon another human being who does NOT agree with the practice is wrong. I'm with you on that point... if that was your point. But if your point is to outlaw something like this entirely, when there are people who want to continue it, and no one is being forced, then I think you are full of shit and need to STFU.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #29
51. Do you actually think anybody who was forced into marriage WANTED it?
They were shamed into it. They were made to feel guilty. It's called coercion, and it's wrong.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #51
62. Do you actually think you know what is in the minds of others?
Omnipotent much?

:eyes:
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #51
130. But if they're both legally adults, what can anybody else do about it,

even if they wanted to?


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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #51
132. There is a difference
between arranged marriages and forced marriages.

And just because your friend is cowed by his parents to agree to this marriage doesn't mean he is being forced to marry this woman. I think it's horrifying that his parents have bullied him all his life, and psychologically he is living the effects of that. Can you encourage him to strike out on his own, get some counseling and try to make his own decisions? Or does he want this marriage?


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CK_John Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
30. Every culture has some form of putting kids in the right place to meet, we are more subtle,
the college choice directed by parents, the neighborhood we live in, church dances/clubs and aunts/uncles fixing kids up with blind dates, DU meetups, etc.

We are products of our genes.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
97. Debutante balls...
Yep... this has been part of "our culture" for centuries. When my mom went to college, the big saying on campus was that guys went there to get an MBA, and girls went there to get an Mrs.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
37. I never heard of Catholics having arranged marriages in this country
:wtf:

Muslims, yes; Hindus, yes.

What ethnic group is your friend? He sounds as if he's grown up in Saudi Arabia.
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kickysnana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. My one sister's Fundie church does this. They are military
I told her good luck with that. Our family's kids have a rebellious stubborn streak a mile wide when they hit 18. She is the one that we always caused us to eat a cold dinner because it would take her 45 minutes to get her 5 kids to wash their hands. They would throw tantrums well past two.(sigh).
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
73. What does the military or Catholics have to do with arranged marriages?
Fundies are NOT Catholic.
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kickysnana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
146. It can be succssfully argued that some Catholics are FUNDIES
Most of the people in my sister's church are Military. They cater to people who need everything controlled.

In fact life is chaotic, people are not perfect and we have rules and ethics but sometimes you have to make exceptions or people will go crazy and the system will collapse, lose themselves in bad things: addictive substances or bad clandestine behaviors etc.

Why are you asking?



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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #146
147. The Catholic Church is not Fundamentalist
The reason I'm asking is, if your sister's church isn't Catholic, it's totally off topic.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
38. Hi...
I pretty much agree with you ... I have zero tolerance for dumbassedness too. :)
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
39. Why is hunting for your spouse on a bar stool inherently better than your parents choosing?
Different cultures find spouses in different ways. I met elderly couples in Africa whose parents had arranged their marriages who were happy many years later.

Here in NYC, I know a few ultra orthodox Jewish couples who also are in arranged marriages and frankly, they're happier than most couples I know.

So perhaps you need to explain why sitting on a bar stool doing the Roxbury head bob necessarily leads to happier marriages than your parents finding you a catch?
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
40. There is no law forcing him to marry her
I think the problem is with abusive parents, not arranged marriage.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
41. you are an uneducated bigot. That you base your case on one immature person YOU know is pathetic
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Immature?
Because he doesn't want to be forced to marry someone he doesn't even know? If he is immature it's because he has been emotionally abused and shamed for his entire life.
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Sultana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. How old is he?
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. 33 (nm)
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #52
82. When I was a kid, my mom tried to shame me for masturbating.
I started masturbating on a Catholic Rosary after that. Even as a child I understood independence.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #52
83. Did he tell you he does not want to get married, or are you
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 07:20 PM by lizzy
projecting how you would feel in the situation onto him? The people I knew expected their parents to arrange their marriage. It's a different culture. It is expected. Really, this man is an adult, and nothing can be done unless he does something about it if he so wants.

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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #83
110. There are 2 women escaping arranged marriages at the battered women's shelter right now
I deal with them virtually every day as we work to get the families housed and employed. These women aren't the first, nor will they be the last. What's unusual is that they have overcome a shitload of family guilt and cultural pressure in order to escape, and claim happiness for THEMSELVES.

Romanticizing arranged marriages does no real service to that cultural orientation.

There is just as much abuse, alcohol, violence and other problems in arranged marriages as any other marriage, love match or not.

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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #47
133. He can just say no
if he won't, that's his choice.


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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #133
135. I don't think it's quite that simple.
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 08:56 AM by lizzy
There is a concept of shaming ones family that seems to be totally absent in an american present day culture.
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Sultana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
45. You are entitled to your opinion
There are people in arranged marriages who are totally happy.


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Gwendolyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
54. Arranged marriage is a form of bigotry.
It's the perfect way of ensuring that your offspring will not end up with someone who isn't of the same religion, culture and skin color.

That said, I think also that there are many people perfectly happy in their arranged marriages. I also know of several orthodox jewish couples who were matched up. But their expectations of life are very different.

On the personal side, I suppose you can make a life with someone you feel absolutely no attraction to, but geez, life must seem to last forever if that's the case.
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #54
109. More Often Then Not It Is To Keep THE MONEY In The Families
Yes religion and culture and race play a part but MONEY$$$$$$$ is the REAL reason for arranged marriages.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #109
112. Exactly. I wish I could rec this post a thousand times.
It's about money and cultural status more than anything else.

What chaps my ass, is the subject of "choice" for the participants. The cultural and societal pressures are ENORMOUS! At the outset of the "marriage" and the ensuing years, these poor souls MUST stay together for the most grotesque cultural relativist reasons.

I know personally, that when I fuck up, I can own my mistake and move on. But people who have a boatload of family obligation simply cannot swim against that terrible "cultural expectation" stream without suffering a thousand cuts. They feel they must behave within that cultural norm, and the emotional cost of going against that is huge.

If my marriage were to fail, I'd own it, divorce, suffer the consequences and move (hopefully healthily) on....

Participants in arranged marriages on the other hand have a whole nother level of suffering that is truly horrifying.

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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #112
115. Exactly! These People Can Not Buck Their Families Financial Systems
They get stuck with the marriage because the family is expecting a return on the investment. It sucks. It is grotesque. Very feudal in my view. Positively Wall Street "emotional blackmail."
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
55. I agree that forced marriage is morally repugnant.
And I know that sometimes it's difficult to ascertain whether or not arranged marriages are being forced on the participants. One of the few things I can think of to reduce the problem is to not allow anyone under the age of 18 to marry without some sort of counseling to ensure that neither party is being forced into the marriage. This won't stop the practice, I know, but at least they are adults who are better able to resist pressure from families if they really don't want the marriage.

As to the issue that this would be forcing American customs onto people from other cultures...frankly, it really is a question of "when in Rome." We have made many practices common to other cultures illegal--female circumcision, honor killings, polygamy, for example--and if someone chooses to live in the U.S., they are also choosing to abide by these laws. The burden of choice is always on immigrants to decide whether or not they want to conform to the society of the country they move to, not for that society to adapt to those individuals' cultural preferences.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. This isn't really about customs, though. This is about right and wrong
Honor killings and female circumcision are wrong, no matter what. Polygamy may be a grey area. My point is that forced marriages are wrong. It's one of those black and white issues, not one of those grey ones.

I can't edit the OP, but I probably should have emphasized that this is a forced marriage. Forced via the usual coercive methods of shame and guilt.
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Thanks for making the distinction.
The cousin of a friend of mine was pushed into marriage by family pressure. He'd confided to my friend that he was gay, but coming out would have gotten him excommunicated from his church and rejected my many in his family--he chose to marry.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. I bet he's "happy"!
At least according to the naive people in this thread who think people can actually choose something that they're forced to do, despite it being logically impossible.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #65
85. Did he tell you he is not? Again, just because you wouldn't
want to be in the situation doesn't mean he doesn't want to be in a situation.
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. Actually no, he isn't happy.
But his parents are, and his wife is, and (for the time being) that's more important to him than his own happiness. As far as the future, who knows?
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #87
126. Does his wife know he's gay?
If not, he's a fraud and a coward.
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #57
71. shame and guilt are powerful forces...
But neither one can be nullified through force of law. They are defeated through strength of character and a willingness to face the terrible loneliness that comes of abandoning family in order to achieve freedom from an unhealthy situation. I mourn for your friend, he is in a prison of his own construction and will be miserable until he decides that the pain he will inevitably suffer from his family's ostracism is worth the freedom and self-respect he will gain in return. He can still say no, he merely lacks the courage to face the consequences of doing so.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #71
114. But they can also be defeated through concerned people like us standing up against forced
and arranged marriages for anyone in the US.

It may not be a legal issue but it certainly is a moral issue. And enlightened people like us can take a stand and work to ensure this isn't some kind of romaticized cultural relativism that we applaud. Or even simply tolerate.....
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
56. When I was growing up
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 05:54 PM by nichomachus
the woman in the house next door had been married in an arranged marriage. The day she was married was the third time she had met her husband. The first time was when he came to look her over. The second time was when she was taken to his house, so his parents could look her over. And, the third time was her wedding.

Her most prized possession was a pick-axe, which was her wedding present from her parents.

Her husband, who had a girlfriend, when he was home, sat around and drank beer and smoked cigars, while the wife did all the work around the house -- inside and out.

Oh -- they were Catholics, in case you were wondering.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
59. Don't conflate arranged marriages with forced marriages.

Most arranged marriages are not forced.

Forced marriages are immoral, and should be stamped out.

In most countries, forced marriages are illegal, although in many countries, especially Islamic ones and African ones, that law is not enforced.

Non-forced arranged marriages are not immoral.

Often, cultures where arranged marriages proliferate also have a high incidence of forced or pressured marriages.

Also, even in non-forced arranged marriages there is often some pressure placed to get married.

As such, I think that trying to encourage a move away from arranged marriages voluntarily is a good idea. But they certainly shouldn't be banned.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
70. Catholics don't do arranged marriages, FYI
I'm against arranged marriages, but your post seems to be Catholic bashing, and not even for something remotely valid.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
72. The Catholic Church does NOT force people into arranged marriages
The ignorance on this board of religions is boundless/
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
74. how does that work? i can't get my kids to clean their rooms.
i can't imagine how you can make kids get married.

however, i do think that having loving parents play a part in the decision to marry is not all together bad. i kid about the bedrooms, but DH and i hated middle kids boyfriend, and made no bones about it. it took her a while, but she eventually saw that we were right about him. she dumped him, and now is bringing boys by the house for us to check out, as is her younger sister.
we didn't demand that, tho. we earned it. it is a shame when you end up without that kind of relationship with your kids. a loss for everyone.
i do know how it happens, tho.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. My bet he is an immigrant. I can even guess his country of origin.
I've seen similar situations with arranged marriages. Most people deal with it. It's a different culture.


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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
75. well sure, but your friend also needs to grow a spine and come out of the closet
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 07:08 PM by pitohui
don't kid yourself that he never kissed a girl other than mom and sister because he knew one day he'd be in an arranged marriage -- the power of lust is strong and if he was into women, he'd have been w. women, he just isn't

according to your post he's a grown man and a catholic, so guess what, no one can force him to marry aga. his will

maybe he can't end every arranged marriage, BUT he could stop HIS arranged marriage, but if he chooses to sell himself for the money he'll inherit (or she'll inherit) whose fault is that but his? and why is it your business to judge?

long ago i dated a guy who had the arranged marriage story down pat as a convenient excuse, his family was rich, and he wanted the money...but if you think this guy never had sex, well, er, no, altho i'm sure many of his friends and family believed what he wished them to believe -- the guy had a horror of penetration but he still had the kind of sex that was to HIS liking even if it isn't to yours

i agree arranged marriages are wrong but when we're talking about adults, you know what? they need to stand up for themselves at some point, we can't do it for them -- you say your friend is 33, it's time for him to be a man, be honest, is there some chance he WANTS the arranged marriage because of the financial benefits it will bring?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. Well what do you know?

:eyes:
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #75
91. I know this person
Trust me. He has never had sex. He has been emotionally abused by his parents for his entire life.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. that's what you would have said about the guy i told about also
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 07:59 PM by pitohui
he's had sex, he hasn't had sex he wants to discuss with YOU or maybe not sex in a form you would acknowledge to be "sex"

the guy i told of, actually told his DOCTOR, that he didn't even masturbate, yeah right bunky -- trust me -- this was the opposite of the truth to put it mildly

be that as it may, your buddy is 33, if he doesn't want the arranged marriage, it's his place to grow a spine and say something

i'm not saying he's telling you the arranged marriage story just to give YOU the brush off, i'm just saying that the guy is an adult and until you've been in bed w. him you don't know anything except the face he wants the world to see and while innocent virgin isn't so attractive to YOU in a 33 yr old apparently that's what he thinks others expect of him...so that's what he's putting out there
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
77. Let me guess? He is from another country?
You can't really dictate other cultures what to do.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
84. If the person in question is over the age of 18, they aren't "forced"
:eyes:

dg
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #84
90. Are you familiar with the consequences of emotional abuse? (nm)
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #90
98. Unless a gun is being pointed at your head
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 08:01 PM by WolverineDG
you aren't being "forced" if you're over 18. At 18, you can say no, & walk away. Might be really tough at first, but worth it in the end. If you chose to go ahead anyway because of "emotional abuse," you aren't being "forced."

Ah geez, this guy is 33?? :wtf: Grow a spine!

dg

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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. I guess your answer then, is no
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #100
123. Get over yourself
Edited on Tue Dec-09-08 06:24 AM by WolverineDG
The guy is 33. I presume he has some education & is able to support himself. If he's still going through with the arranged marriage, he's not being "forced." :eyes:

And you're connecting this with domestic violence? :rofl: Puh-leeze. Are his parents beating the crap out of him every day? If so, why hasn't he called the police? If not, :eyes:

dg
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #90
99. emotionally abused people don't not have sex and automatically do everything daddy say
if anything there are many and many who are kinky and wilder and more rebellious than you can imagine

they just don't necessarily put on a show for YOU
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Ignorance
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
107. Just because you don't understand something...
...doesn't mean it's wrong.
I take offense at your narrow minded view. No wonder other cultures hate us.
Duckie
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #107
113. The notion that couples should marry for love is relatively recent
Marriage has spent most of its history as a primarily economic institution. The rise of the bourgeois allowed them (us) greater freedom of marriage choice than the poor or the nobility had. But it's still hardly the only way marriages, even successful marriages, happen.

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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #113
142. I completely agree with you.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
111. A-HEM: You STILL haven't said what nationality this guy is
because I can't think of a Catholic culture where forced marriages prevail today.

Like other posters, I suspect that your friend is closeted gay and using the "I believe in chastity" excuse as a cover-up. I've seen it happen before.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #111
116. My friend whose parents arranged a marriage for her
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 10:50 PM by lizzy
was catholic and from another country. Which I suspect this guy also is. Cause I don't believe american parents would have that much control over their grown son. Actually in their culture parents are expected to arrange marriages for their children. It's tradition. So somehow I doubt this guy actually doesn't want to get married. He is probably expecting it. How does OP know the guy does not want his parents to arrange a marriage for him?
Did he say anything?


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JDwho Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #116
122. In some cultures (here in the US, even), isn't there a dowry involved?
We studied this in college and it is no joke. You marry who is chosen for you, even if their touch disgusts you.
For example, from the woman's point of view (against the marriage, but duty bound):
Wouldn't the cooking, cleaning, laundry, birthing of children and obligatory sexual relations amount to something similar to slavery?
I read earlier posts and thought...it's not such a far out idea, with or without the female's family getting a dowry. It occurs to me that the exchange of the dowry, for the girl/woman, could even amount to human trafficking.

Yes, I know, some of these marriages work out beautifully and may even have the same (or better)chances as those of us who married for love. But, it seems there is something criminal about it.
I agree with he OP. It's antiquated and violates basic civil rights.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #122
134. It ain't always a woman's family that is getting a dowry.
In some cultures it's the man's.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #134
137. Technically, the dowry is always what the woman's family provides
If the man's family provides it, it's called the "bride price."
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JDwho Donating Member (339 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #137
140. To the last two posts: Your'e so right. I had my exchange of currency reversed.
The family of the female provides the dowry to the male to "take her off their hands". Ugh. A horrible prospect to me. But, hey, to each his own. If the females aren't rebelling, why should I? Though in my world, it seems (still) to be an atrocity to a person's--male or female-human/civil rights.
Thanks for setting me straight on that...must have been some brain-wind in there.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
125. Interesting topic.
Want to comment later.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
136. Your friend is 33 and an adult.
Barring a gun, nobody can make him do anything.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #136
148. I call bullshit on the whole story
Catholics don't do arranged marriages in this country, or most others.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-08 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
138. Some cultures just prefer to get hooked up by the family
There is a nice book:

Social and Cultural Anthropology: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) (Paperback)
by John Monaghan (Author), Peter Just (Author) (Available at Amazon.com)

Which does a good job demonstrating the fallacy (and uselessness) of denigrating or judging other cultures while you are not in them to experience them first hand. It is a real eye (and mind) opener.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-08 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
150. Lynyrd, are you just trolling? I believe FORCED marriage should never occur.
Arranged marriage, if both parties consent to it, what's the problem?

But this person is 33 years old. Do you think there should be a law against arranged marriages, no matter what age of the participants? :shrug:



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