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With all due, how can any self-respecting progressive be a party to the Catholic church?

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Truth Teller Donating Member (479 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:07 AM
Original message
With all due, how can any self-respecting progressive be a party to the Catholic church?
When France proposed a resolution seeking all nations to decriminalise homosexuality, the Vatican immediately said it would oppose the resolution. This is despite the fact that up to 70 nations still have legal punishments for gay people including, in some instances, the death penalty

Being a member or supporter of an organization that supports the criminalization of sexual preference is unimaginable to me, and I don't care what other good works they're doing.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. With all due, how can any self-respecting progressive be a party to the Democratic Party?
Because someone has to fight from the inside.

Duh.


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Truth Teller Donating Member (479 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:11 AM
Original message
Delete
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 08:12 AM by Truth Teller
Delete
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Touche.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. Exactly. Many Catholics don't want to leave the Church
in the hands of the Ratzinger followers.
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CanonRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Flash for you:
It's IN the hands of the Ratzinger followers. Always has been, always will be.
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williesgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. Couldn't agree w/you more, and I was born & raised Catholic. Gave it up 30 yrs ago!
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. As a gay man, I can't.
I was raised Catholic. My mom, who still is devout, has asked me if I would ever return to the Church. She knows I'm gay and is accepting.

I just can't do it. It would be the worst kind of hypocrisy for me to go back.

I admire gay and lesbian Catholics, such as Dignity, who try to change the church from within. I just can't be a part of it.
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Veritas_et_Aequitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
4. How can any self-respecting progressive call themselves an American after Bush?
Edited on Mon Dec-08-08 08:27 AM by Liberal_Lurker
Corruption of the institution does not necessarily facilitate corruption of the ideals.

If you actually sit down and study the core teachings, it's not all that bad. Things become problematic when the theology becomes too static and no longer speaks to the believer's world. This is similar to the argument that the Constitution is a living document. Interpretations must change with the time while staying consistent with those original ideals. There's supposed to be an evolving understanding of both ideas: Christianity/Catholicism and our Constitution.

Besides, someone has to push for reform.
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DoctorMyEyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. If only I'd refreshed before replying
I would have seen that you'd already expressed my opinion - and more eloquently.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. You just don't get it.
If you aren't waving a flaming torch and screaming at your fellow liberals, how do you know which ones are the "bad liberals."

Stop being logical, please and fall in line.


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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Any progressive who didn't move to Canada over the last eight years isn't a real progressive
:rofl:
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Damn. And here I sit in one of the reddest states with a brand new passport.
Sigh. Ok, I'll start packing...


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DoctorMyEyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
6. I'm not catholic
But, I think it might be like loving your country but hating your government - the same situation many of us have found ourselves in.

I know a lot of great kind hearted progressive Catholics who disagree with their churches official positions on many, many issues. They do their best and don't seem to me to be in the "minority" among their fellow worshipers.
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Veritas_et_Aequitas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Well, it's a lot like America itself in some ways, at least among the laity
You have a very vocal conservative minority, a very frustrated progressive minority, and the vast majority fall in between and generally don't understand what's going on. It gets even worse if you belong to the clergy.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. I live for threads like this
Where a lone DUer attempts to prioritize the values of every other person on Earth.
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. Catholic-bashing...DU....what else is new? n/t
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Catholic-bashing is only one leg underlying the grand fallacy here
The more important aspect IMO is the idea that any of us is qualified to define what constitutes a "self-respecting" member of a nebulous group like "progressives".
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
12. How can the Dems expect to retain the votes of Catholic progressives
if party members continue to insult all Catholics and to make them feel unwelcome?
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. Thank you.
It's rather ironic to inquire how any self respecting progressive can be Catholic and then proceed to bash Catholics. Is that progressive? I think not.

For anyone's information, a lot of us disagree with many of the Vatican's teachings, we use birth control. I live with my fiance. We are not married. Other stuff like that. Many of us do it.

I am very, VERY tired of people throwing all Catholics into one big block like we are all wackos.

Can we please limit our criticism to the Vatican, the Pope, and extremist Catholics, etc. and stop bashing all Catholics?

What if Catholics started bashing Protestants as all being nutty, right wing, born again nutjobs? Would that be accurate?

I have a lot of self respect, I am very progressive and I am a Catholic (though don't really practice it). I am not about to apologize to anyone.

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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Good post.
My wife and I are pretty much in the same boat as you and your fiance. Birth control. Lived together. Etc.

Pretty much like most American Catholics.


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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. Sometimes I've felt like I'm hanging from the Catholic Church by the fingernails
of one hand and from the Democratic party by the fingernails of the other.


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Gato Moteado Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
15. or any religion, for that matter.
nt
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
16. Sounds a little too much like...
"How can you call yourself Catholic if you're pro-choice?"

Just sayin'.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
18. With all due respect, Catholics have been suffering with
their fossilized church hierarchy for centuries while continuing to practice their faith. Nothing much has changed on this front.
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
19. I'm wondering how someone like
Dietrich Bonhoeffer could ever become enslaved to the Lutheran Church.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
21. People are BORN in it.
FAMILIES are BORN in it.

GIVE PEOPLE A BREAK!
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. That doesn't mean you can't leave.
?
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Progressives were here first.
Including some Popes.

The current right-wing vein, much like our American right-wing vein, will fade with time and discourse.

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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
22. wow, you're right... let's burn the catholics! .......(sarcasm)
That'll show how progressive we are!

(sarcasm)


look, I'm not catholic, but I know and have known many salt of the earth wonderful catholics in my life who have done many good works in the community, INCLUDING supporting gay rights.
I think once you get to know some catholic progressives, you'll find they can disagree with the vatican and work for change from within.

Just because ratzinger is trying to promote bigotry does not make every catholic a bigot.

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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. I was raised Catholic and it served it's purpose.....when I began questioning
the doctrine and realized women are second class citizens in the religion...I could no longer call myself a Catholic.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. and that's fine, too.
I just don't want to put myself in the position of judging catholics that want to remain in a religion they disagree with.

I know I have been part of a few organizations I disagreed with and stayed a long time (perhaps too long) in an attempt to change or improve the situation from within. Even if it failed, I know the attempt was sincere.

We also have to consider that if everyone who disagrees with the vatican leaves, it only ups the percentage of those remaining who will move in lockstep. IMHO, that can be much worse.

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cap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
29. because of the myriad of people both laity and in the clergy who
don't support this at all. Because of a belief that the Church will undergo a renaissance akin to that of Vatican II. "The severed hand can not heal the body".

Because of the Center for Human Development, a Catholic organization that worked with Saul Alinsky and who employed the newly graduated Barack Obama--his first community organizing job.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
31. Let's throw out Biden, Kerry, Richardson and Kucinich.
If we don't, how can you stay in the Democratic Party?
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calico1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. And let's not forget:
Dodd
Harkin
Leahy
Cantwell
Murray
And of course Ted Kennedy.


Oh and we must not allow Gov. Paterson to appoint Caroline if he was even thinking of it. She's CATHOLIC!
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
33. People stay because the most effective way to change it is from the inside.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
35. How can any self repsecting progressive
post such an obnoxious thread?



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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
36. Because some people get something out of their religion
so they are willing to take the good - and reject the parts they find wrong. Have you ever heard of cafeteria Catholics? Not to mention not all individual Catholic churches themselves are the same. I think that the values inherent in the social justice movement in the Catholic church are as progressive as you can get. I hear those values when I listened to Senator Kennedy rail against the awful bankruptcy bill. I heard it in many of Senator Kerry's speeches, from healthcare to not torturing period. Look at some of the Democratic Catholic Senators - Kennedy, Kerry, Leahy, Dodd, Durbin, Harkin, Casey, Mikulski, Reed, Cantwell, Biden, Salazar, and Murray. There are leading liberal/progressive Senators in that list. All of whom would fight against the criminalization of sexual preferences. They likely do get something important to them out of their religion.

The most thoughtful articulation from a Catholic Senator explaining how his religion does inform his values was Kerry's Pepperdine speech - transcipt - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...
video - http://www.pepperdine.edu/pr/releases/2006/september/ke... What is clear from that speech is that Senator Kerry's faith was part of what has made him the strong advocate that he is.

It is also not just the Catholic church - consider Obama's speeches dealing with the controversy over his church. Wright's church had an incredible outreach program that did substantial good - and that likely was why Obama was there - it did though have sermons that Obama did not agree with. You are doing to believing Catholics what the freepers wanted to do to Obama - and it makes no more sense.

Now, there are people who have no religion and see no need to have one. There are others who find they are not getting what they need from the religion they were born into, who convert. (I converted from Catholicism to Judaism and have a daughter who converted to Christianity) These are completely valid choices, but it is also completely valid for a person to continue to follow.
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Tommy_Carcetti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
37. Oh for fuck's sake.
Please don't tell me what religion I should or shouldn't belong to.

It's not a perfect church, but then again, I don't belong to a perfect political party, either. And I live in a far from a perfect country.
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Celeborn Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
38. I'm an agnostic, almost atheist who goes
to the Catholic Church almost weekly. Suck on that, "Truth Teller".
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
39. Locking
Inflammatory or Flame-Bait Discussion Topics

Do not post "flame bait" discussion topics. While there is no clear line regarding what constitutes flame bait, the moderators have the authority to shut down threads which they consider too rhetorically hot, too divisive, too extreme, or too inflammatory. Please use good judgment when starting threads; inflammatory rhetoric does not normally lead to productive discussion.
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