To Whom This May Offend ...

[NanceGreggs]

… you can f*ck right off. Because if you’re offended, you obviously don’t get it, and never will.

In view of the Vatican’s recently announced position, “When France proposed a resolution seeking all nations to decriminalise homosexuality, the Vatican immediately said it would oppose the resolution. This is despite the fact that up to 70 nations still have legal punishments for gay people including, in some instances, the death penalty”, allow me to reiterate my position to those who agree with such shite: f*ck right off.

Aside from the irony-laden ROFL factor – the fact that this pronouncement comes from the church that has not only protected pedophiles, but ensured their continued access to vulnerable children by simply reassigning priests known to be such to unsuspecting parishes, without so much as a wink-wink, heads-up warning – this latest demonstration of hypocrisy-in-action merits some kind of international You’ve-Got-to-be-Sh*ttin’-Me award.

It seems that Holy Mother the Church has finally lapsed into being the Holy Mo-Fo Church, where everything Jesus ever taught (like NOT judging lest ye be judged) has been thrown out of the nearest stained-glass window. Eyes down, don’t say a word, and pass the gilt-laden collection plate if you don’t mind – and forget all that crapola The Nazarene mouthed-off about when he threw the money changers out of the Temple, and preached about all of us being God's children, equally deserving of His love and protection.

Jesus Christ, what did Jesus Christ know about it anyway? Off preaching lovin’ thy neighbor and all – never once adding the addendum, “except those gays and lesbians, who I meant to tell you were no good.”

Yeah, seems the Good Lord simply forgot to warn us against the homosexuals. Guess he was busy walkin’ on water and sounding off about being our brothers’ keeper, and as we do to the least among us – yadda, yadda – to find the time to add, “Oh, yeah, and if those people should show up, be sure and publicly stand up against their rights.”

Ten Commandments – not one about/against homosexuality. I suppose one has to assume that if the Big Ten had gone to eleven, we’d all have been enlightened on the topic – or maybe not. And you’d think that if God wanted to say something on the matter, he could have done so.

But he didn’t.

And doesn’t that say it all?

As for His Present Popitude, I can only say, with all due respect: Fuck right off. If you really believe that Jesus would have condoned getting on-board with the death penalty for same-sex love – LOVE – you missed His message by a long-shot.

And given the current state of what was once the Holy See - which now sees only what it wants to see - why am I not surprised?

[PBS Poll-435]

1. K&R Nance

And, if I may,

[saltpoint]

2. I like the creation-up Francis of Assisi Catholics a lot but am

less enthusiastic about the top-down pope-authoritarian Catholics.

I like the Kennedy Catholics and the Biden Catholics but don't care for the withhold-communion-from-John-Kerry Catholics.

Well, Nance, you came out swinging and I hope every punch lands. I got to rec this inside the first 5 recs this time. I hope dozens are in the same line.

[roguevalley]

3. the church is being led by a hitler youth and the head of the

inquisition. there is nothing of Jesus in the church anymore. Very sad. THey abrogate their moral authority every time they open their mouth.

[cboy4]

4. You know, I don't compliment every one of your writings

because I think to be honest, the emphasis of my satisfaction would probably get lost in the duplicity of robotic praise.

I'm not sure if that made any sense, and it's probably very insulting.

I just mean I save my compliments for when I think they count.

Not only is this beautifully written, it means a lot to have someone with your writing ability and reputation articulating these thoughts in a thread at Democratic Underground.

Some of us feel so outnumbered in society, and most recently on that bittersweet election day in California. When I read this, I can't tell you how nice it is to know we have friends.

Thank you



K-R

[NanceGreggs]

6. If I don't stand with you ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

There are more of us committed to that concept than you can imagine - forgive us for not saying it as often as it needs to be said.

[Rhythm]

92. I missed that the first time around... thank you.

Allies like you are why we will prevail, because there just aren't enough of us alone to overcome the bigoted vitriol on the other side.

[SeattleGirl]

5. Well said, Nance

IMHO, religions are getting entirely too much power these days, and that's wrong on so many levels.

If Jesus came back today, I'll bet He'd be sickened by what he saw done in His name.



And I would also like to give you a .

[NanceGreggs]

7. Right back at ya ...

[hfojvt]

8. I don't think you are making a lot of sense

I will consider myself fu$%ed off.

Here's a small hint, although you perhaps will not get it.

Being against decriminalization is not the same as being in favor of the death penalty for said criminal act.

Another one. You cast aspersions at the Catholic Church for not following the teaching "judge not ..." when clearly you show that you are not following that teaching either.

But I know, I know, you are either with us or you can fu$% off. Keep preaching that hate.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hfojvt]

17. excellent idea.

Fight hate with more hate. That'll show them that hatred is wrong.

[baby_mouse]

31. No-one's interested in showing them hate is wrong. The already KNOW hatred's wrong.

You think hate's so bad? Go noise up the Vatican.

[Marrah_G]

39. They know hate is wrong- in the end it will come right back to them

Things like this will be the slow downfall of the Vatican and it's centuries of secrecy, hate, manipulation, destruction and death.

For a while it looked like they were making some good changes, but this new Pope threw that all away.

[NanceGreggs]

10. Yes, I will keep "preaching that hate" ...

... hate against those hypocrites who shield pedophile priests who rape little boys - and then denounce homosexuals as unworthy of God's love.

Hate against so-called Christians who have so twisted the word of Christ they wouldn't recognize Him if they saw him.

Hate against those who would deny Him to save their own asses - three times, three hundred times - it matters not. As many times as deemed necessary.

Hate against those who would deny basic civil rights to their fellow citizens, and justify their actions in the name of He who never encouraged such behaviour.

Call it "hate" if you will - and keep telling yourself that it's people like me who aren't getting it.

[hfojvt]

16. am I calling it hate, or are you calling it hate?

but "JUSTIFIED" hate, "RIGHTEOUS" hate.

Uhm.

1. Nobody is worthy of God's love. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." "By grace ye are saved ..."

2. Which part is twisted, since that is pretty broad and generic? Does that include the Apostle Paul?

3. Huh? How is that connected, and how do you know who those people are who would deny Jesus to save their own a$$?

4. Jesus never encouraged such behaviour as 'denying civil rights'. That's kind of a tough call since He does not spend much time talking about basic civil rights. One thing is pretty clear though, the business of not returning hate for hate. 'Turn the other cheek' comes to mind. Perhaps you do not consider yourself to be a Christian, and yet, at the same time, you consider yourself to be somebody who understands Christ and Christianity better than people who do claim to be Christians.

[baby_mouse]

32. You can turn the other cheek for a million years.

If the other guys doesn't turn his, yer screwed.

You perceive us to be the aggressor. Why?

[floridablue]

106. Aren't the phediphile Priests who rape little boys also homosexual ?

[JackBeck]

116. No. Pedophilia is a psychological disorder.

Homosexuality is not.

[floridablue]

132. Thank you for the correction

We who live in ignorance about such things, being neither gay or catholic are only picking up the same sex part of it. None of our local Priests in TampaBay were caught playing with girls. Apparently they leave that for the school teachers.

[yardwork]

164. There is a lot of sexual abuse against females in the Church, especially priests against nuns.

It's another thing that doesn't get talked about very much. Also, most pedophiles are men abusing little girls. Again, the male-on-male pedophiles get more attention, but the other kind is more common.

You are correct in noting that pedophiles are insane, or something. They're not gay. Gay people are no more likely to be pedophiles than straight people, and most pedophiles abuse children of the opposite sex.

Unfortunately, the myth that gay people pursue children is still circulating. Thank you for asking the question.

[floridablue]

178. Like I said

I am not very bright about the subject. But I do notice that even the tv shows that broach the issue (damn, I used that word) seem to always depict the male that was abused by a male.

[NanceGreggs]

117. Well, one would think ...

... there's an obvious connection there.

[floridablue]

133. I am corrected

I was seeing the Pedophiles as gay, rather than psychotic.

[Mithreal]

13. The current pope, his instructions, and the vatican are not

the same as saying the Catholic Church.

You can support the office of the Presidency and democracy while still holding in disgust the current President and his policies.

Please look at Old Crusoe's comment which is #2 in this discussion.

I am sensitive to anti-Catholic bigotry and do not see what you are seeing. I would not call this hate. I would call it righteous anger.

[hfojvt]

18. I did not say anything about anti-Catholicism

I was responding to the "agree with me or fu$% off" theme and mentioned that the argument, which included a lot of ad hominem, also used a false equivalence and apparent hypocrisy. "Jesus said 'judge not' you fu$%ing a$$holes!!!"

[Connonym]

21. tell you what, since you think you have moral superiority

and the church has moral superiority how about you set the good example first because really the church has the numbers on their side and their hatred packs a lot more wallop than my responsive hate.

[hfojvt]

24. sometimes I think about becoming a priest

so my next 30 years of celibate life are not wasted, but I really do not have much of a connection to the Catholic church. I might do what I can to change certain church policies or teachings and cheer on others trying to do so as well, but I don't care for a "with us, or fu$% off" message or outlook. Let the chain of hate end with me.

But you know I am a heartless bastid

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[baby_mouse]

33. No, you're just setting yourself up

for the most amazingly nasty surprise.

[trotsky]

44. "I might do what I can to change certain church policies or teachings"

Leaving the church, formally, would be the #1 thing that you and all liberal Catholics could do to actually bring about change. By giving your time and money, even if you think it's just benefiting your local parish, you're feeding the beast. If the millions of liberal Catholics just up and left the church, there would be real change.

[defendandprotect]

80. Well, if you support a church which preaches intolerance for homosexuals ...

same as supporting a political party whose policies you don't respect --

The "hatred" is coming from church writings and pulpits ..

homosexuals are defending themselves against the Vatican --

Keep in mind the Vatican still works to oppress women --

RCC and the Mormons funded -- with tax exemrt dollars -- the campaign

against the ERA - Equal Rights Amendment.

The Vatican still does not acknowledge the full personhood of females

as it acknowledges the full personhood of males.

[Mithreal]

107. I still call it righteous anger. Even this language is appropriate in some contexts?

What is more offensive - the church's attitudes criticized in this op or the language and method used to criticize?

Inflammatory language is sometimes necessary to jump start dead thinking.

Language or better, pictures, can arouse the same people who rationalize or just ignore suffering and death of innocents. I really don't get it. I do not mean to say that you fall into this group. I just have seen it too often. It's like someone with cancer ignoring the metastasis and worrying about a paper-cut.

[defendandprotect]

78. Organized Patriarchal religion vs women, Jews, homosexuals ...

native American --

Africans enslaved here --

Papal Bulls ... "enslave or murder the infidels" ....

When was patriarchal religion either good for mental health

or non-lethal--???

Their war on women continues, just as their war on homosexuals continues --

Their license to exploit nature for profit of few -- "Manifest Destiny" and

"Man's Dominion Over Nature" -- still sickem the planet.

[Mithreal]

104. I will not disagree with you there. The church is supposed to be

all believers not just the bureaucracy or leadership.

I agree also that it is not just the Catholic Church that is responsible for these crimes against humanity.

Jesus has been a great symbol for the marketing departments of these tax exempt corporations.

Time for a new enlightenment, right.

[moodforaday]

129. Alas, they are the same

"The current pope, his instructions, and the vatican are not the same as saying the Catholic Church."

As long as the masses of Catholics do not denounce the Vatican's politicking and the pope's sickly preachings, they are the same. Because it's these masses of people who give any power, real or perceived, to the Vatican. And among those masses there are plenty who cheer the pope on.

[Mithreal]

147. For most people their faith is personal

The opinion in your comment reminds me of people who said we should never have a Catholic President. Maybe that is too harsh.

Are there any polls out there that indicate the general support of American Catholics for the Vatican's politicking or indicate they even know about it?

So the masses have to denounce it or they are the same, huh? Are you kidding me? There are progressive activists who are Catholic as well. Those folks are trying to create current change from within. They are not quitters as some few here would like them to be.

[defendandprotect]

167. Let's not forget the $$$ which keeps these evil teachings moving ...

Tho the Vatican now considers much of old following folding --

and they are off to find their new fortunes in Africa and China---

[tkmorris]

29. Are you fucking kidding?

The Catholic Church is not walking some imaginary tightrope, where they deplore the punishment of Homosexuals common in some parts of the world, while at the same time refusing to endorse their behavior. Their active and emphatic opposition to the UN here is a de facto ENDORSEMENT of the punishments meted out by those backwards countries that do these things.

I think perhaps you have reached that point in your life where you have to sit down and examine whether the religion you support supports the values YOU hold most dear. Do you support homosexuals being harassed and killed, or don't you? It really is that simple.

[Marrah_G]

38. When the penalty is death and you are against decriminalization- then you are for death.

The "Pope" is a former Nazi, filled with Hate and Vanity. He represents the Catholic Church of old.

Thankfully, most local priests are NOT like him.

It's disgusting and were I still a Catholic I would be ashamed.

[terrya]

40. Can you please pick up the phone and call Benny at the Vatican?

And tell HIM to knock it off with the hate towards gay and lesbian people?

Thanks bunches!

[lunatica]

48. Perhaps you should follow your own advice and 'judge not'

Before you get all preachy and stuff.

I don't fall for any religion so f**k off with that 'judge not' rule.

[grace0418]

49. Wow. That's terrifying.

Substitute any other kind of person for "homosexual" and maybe you'll begin to see the point.

[pipi_k]

66. I think you misunderstand what Nance said

when you say you consider yourself fucked off.


Here's a snippet...


In view of the Vatican’s recently announced position, “When France proposed a resolution seeking all nations to decriminalise homosexuality, the Vatican immediately said it would oppose the resolution. This is despite the fact that up to 70 nations still have legal punishments for gay people including, in some instances, the death penalty”, allow me to reiterate my position to those who agree with such shite: f*ck right off.


The Vatican opposes decriminalizing homosexuality.

Anyone who agrees with the Vatican's position...that homosexuality should remain criminalized...can fuck off...

especially in light of the fact that the Vatican has winked and turned the other way when it came to its very own priests molesting young boys and girls.

That's how I view her message.

And it's my thought as well. Anyone who agrees with the Vatican position that homosexuality (as well as another hot button issue...Freedom of Choice for women) should be criminalized can fuck off.

[hfojvt]

131. I think it is a little broader than that, given the title

Offended by my argument, you can fu$% off.
Offended by my language, you can fu$% off.

I disagree with that fundamentally and prefer rational arguments and respectful arguments. An argument which admits to the possibility "I might be wrong." The basic premise that those who disagree with me can fu$% off is not such an argument.

A: I think X is true. I agree with X.
B: fu#% you, you fu#%ing evil hypocrite SOB POS!!!!!1!
A: Okay, you have convinced me.

A: Convinced me that not only is X true, but people who think X is false are angry lunatics, hateful and irrational.


I would think that that type of rhetoric would be most offensive to those who think X is false, but I appear to be mistaken. Apparently even more important than the falsehood of X is the proposition that "Those who believe X is true deserve to be hated."

Which actually puts them in large argeement with fundamentalists. They both agree that SOMEBODY deserves to be hated and attacked. There's just a minor disagreement about who that somebodies are.

[ToolTex]

149. You prefer rational and respectful argument regarding those that would kill me!

I refuse to engage in your preferred arguments when the question is whether or not to kill me based on anyone's irrational doctrine. Instead I say FRAK RIGHT OFF!

[tavalon]

68. Hah! That's some fancy parsing there.

I'm not Catholic so I'm happy to cast some asparagus here - the master the Pope is serving isn't God.

[Rhythm]

94. Being "against decriminalization" means that it is the Vatican's position

that we who are not heterosexual should indeed be classified AS CRIMINALS. And in some cultures of the world, that particular 'criminal' classification carries with it a sentence of DEATH.

Yeah... the Pope, and anyone else who believes that, can go 'fuck off'.

[demigoddess]

105. if the catholic church is only against decriminalization then why didn't they turn in

their criminal priests to the local authorities instead of moving them to another jurisdiction and hiding their crimes??????????????

[Obamanaut]

114. I can understand casting aspersions re "judge not..." I am a

judgmental person myself, but am ok with it because I don't tout non-judgmentalness (this may be a made up word)as a way of life. The church does, and then judges stuff, people, things, actions, etc. That said, I agree with every single word of the OP.

We read of a bald headed prophet who was made sport of by some kids, and in a judgmental sort of action a she bear was sent to devour 42 of them.

We read where Lot was supposed to judge the people of Sodom in order that it be spared. Was it ok for Lot to pass judgment?

The OT is chock full of judgmental shit, lack of forgiveness, murder, mayhem, organized crimes against women and children. So I say again, I agree with the OP.

[moodforaday]

126. Technically speaking...

"Being against decriminalization is not the same as being in favor of the death penalty for said criminal act."

Technically, yes. But if you oppose decriminalization, the best it amounts to is saying death may be too harsh, but a stretch in prison is just what a gay person deserves. And that is still fucked.

"You cast aspersions at the Catholic Church for not following the teaching "judge not ..." when clearly you show that you are not following that teaching either."

I had the same first thought, honestly, but then Nance isn't the one preaching the Bible.

[HughMoran]

158. Clearly you aren't making much sense either

If you can make exceptions/excuses for the church being against decriminalization, then you appear to not support gay rights.

Do you?

[D23MIURG23]

166. To criminalize a piece of a person's identity is indefensible.

Pointing out that the Catholic church doesn't support stoning is hardly a defense for their position on this issue. The fact remains that they are advocating that human beings be forced to forgo love or be arrested.

Wake up from your disconnect and put yourself in that position.

[FloridaJudy]

11. When I see the actions

Of some of those who claim to be Christ's followers, I remember the only Bible verse I know by heart.

Jesus wept.

[NanceGreggs]

12. Amen. n/t

[Mithreal]

14. Is exactly what I all too often think. It tears me up inside to know. nt

[Hubert Flottz]

15. Again...Why would someone who is "not gay," worrry 24/7, about...

what gay people are doing?

[trumad]

19. Are you gay Hubert?

If not---then why do you worry about someone who worries about the plight of Gay civil rights? It appears to me that there are a couple of Gay members up above that love what Nancy wrote.

[denisrobert]

22. Pastor Niemoller...

"They came for the Jews but I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t a Jew. They came for the Gypsies but I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t a Gypsy. They came for the homosexuals but I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t a homosexual. They came for the mentally retarded but I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t mentally retarded. Finally they came for me and no one said anything because no one was left to speak."

[Hubert Flottz]

23. No I'm not gay and I like what Nance wrote...

I always like what Nance writes, But I can't for the life of me figure out why the Pope and his little helpers worry so much about what gay people do, if they themselves aren't gay?

I don't understand the "holy ones" obsession with what gay people do, because I don't constantly sit and dwell on that issue. I do know that the Bible teaches that "GOD" should be the judge of what people do, instead of mortals doing the judging. I also know that the people running the churches these days, or any other days, hardly ever abide by the things that they preach.

By the time I'd reached the "age of accountability" I had pretty well figured out that the church I was being forced by my parents to attend as a child, was full of people who told me how I should live on Sunday, but then they turned around and did as they pleased after they got out of sight of the church. I figured out at an early age that I was better off winging it, as opposed to trusting those folks, as far as what was best for my eternal soul.

I believe in freedom, liberty and Mountaineer football, but letely I've felt kind of let down by all three. I also think that gay people have every right to be as free and equal as anyone else in America or anywhere else on the planet.

[trumad]

25. My bad... I thought you we're pointing this at Nancy.

Sorry

[Castleman]

91. Why do they hate gays?

That's actually a fairly simple question to answer: Gays for the most part don't reproduce, ergo, there are no new generations of brain-sickly willing sheep to support the church. The Catholic Church has ONE goal, to keep the Catholic Church as wealthy as possible. People who do not bring more willing contributors to the base are NOT welcome! And yet....tons of the priests are child molesting sickos? Why not let THEM be human beings and marry and raise families? Those people are some kind of messed up.

[Hubert Flottz]

96. They hate me too...because I don't get with their program

I don't kiss their rings or their asses and I don't buy their self serving line of bullshit. Jesus was all about love...guys like the pope are all about hate. Jesus forgave, even the very people who were killing him...the pope and his partners forgive nothing or noone. You either agree with them 100% or "you're damned."

No wonder the Romans fed so many of them to the lions. Maybe the Romans were the ones who really had it right back then?

[Prophet 451]

172. Not hardly

The very early Christians, the ones who were being persecuted by the emperors (they never fed them to lions; lions were expensive, Christians were cheap, it was simpler to just kill them) really were all about the love. By and large, they were pacifists, preached forgiveness and compassion and all the other things genuinely nice people do. The persecution of them was mainly A) because they refused to pay Imperial taxes (which required a donation to the state religion) and B) Because they made convienient scapegoats.

It was only when Christianity became the state religion under Constantinius (Constantine the Great) that things really started to go wrong. From this, it can be deduced that mixing religion and politics always brings out the worst in both.

[Rhythm]

95. On a side-note, i believe in Mountaineer Football as well...

It's the "Official Religion" of my adopted hometown!

[yardwork]

165. I'm gay and I don't obsess about what gays are doing as much as the Pope does.

If I weren't constantly confronted by homophobia and people denying me my rights, I would probably never think about the differences between gay and straight. I suspect that most gay people feel the same way. Like most people, we're preoccupied with our own, not others', love lives.

I don't know why so many straight people are preoccupied with my love life or the love lives of other people who love those of the same sex. The only thing I can think of is that some people are obsessed with having power and authority over others. When people are allowed to love freely, they tend to think and act independently. I know that this has been true of me. I think that authoritarians fear and hate people who love, think, and act freely.

[Hubert Flottz]

173. Out of all the problems trials and troubles that beset mankind today

you'd think the pope would worry about those things, instead of what goes on in the bedroom of a man or woman that he will probably never meet.

People are starving to death in a world of plenty, people are dying by way of bombs and bullets around the world by the tens of thousands. Hunger, terrorism, hatred, slavery, disease and discontent are all on the rise around the globe, but the pope is focused like a laser beam, 24/7, on what gay people are doing?

[yardwork]

179. Says a lot about his priorities, don't it?

[baby_mouse]

35. Because they're human and not freaked out by homosexuals, I guess?

Essentially, you either give fuck about people or you don't.

[bluedawg12]

54. The Chhurch not only "worries" they are up to their elbows in politics about gays

from PropHate8, to turning a blind eye on Polish near nazi like homophobia and presecution of gays in Poland, to meddling in UN/World affairs.

It goes way past issues of defending their version of morality, it is global political activism against gays.

[polmaven]

63. self delete...

never mind!!!!

[Enthusiast]

20. Right on! I don't much care for this

most recent pope. I suspect he has engaged in pedophilia.

[terrya]

26. Thank you for posting this. Highly recommended.

I was raised Catholic. I went to church each Sunday, like a good little Catholic. I participated in the rites of the Church...I was baptized, of course. I was confirmed. I went to confession.

But I eventually drifted away from the Catholic Church.

And all along I realized I was different. I couldn't use words like gay or homosexual to describe myself. But eventually I knew I was gay. I eventually accepted it (a lot of internal homophobia I had to deal with).

Reading over the years the blantanly homophobic pronouncements from the Vatican, and how Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was the author of such pronouncements, I grew more and more angry. No, our relationships as gay and lesbians do NOT do "great damage" to children. No, we are NOT "intrinsically disordered". It has seemed as though the Catholic Church has declared war on gay and lesbian people. And then...Cardinal Ratzinger was elected Pope. And then, the nastiness, the hateful words towards gay and lesbian people around the world...comes down to this. It comes down to the fact that the Vatican has essentially said that it's ok to use the death penalty solely because a person is gay or lesbian. In spite of the Catholic Church's truly noble stance against the death penalty itself. Stop and think about it...the death penalty, to the Vatican, is immoral...except for gay and lesbian people.

Thank you, Nance, for your words. You put it better than I.

[malaise]

27. Ditto

K &R

[rug]

28. Do you honestly believe the pope is advocating death for gays?

You can disagree and rant about his position on same sex unions but your dishonesty about the death penalty reduces your rant to a screed.

[tkmorris]

30. I do. I think that is EXACTLY what he is saying.

Of course he wants to wash his hands of the act itself, but the Church has long done that, while endorsing it with a wink and a nod. The Catholic Church has a great deal of historical blood on it's hands and I think this simply adds to it.

[rug]

36. Not so.

"Holy See not in favor of death penalty for gays, Vatican spokesman clarifies"

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=14502

[defendandprotect]

82. ..then Vatican should vote to "decriminalize" ...

suggesting not killing homosexuals any longer would hurt

church's efforts to keep marriage only for males/females

is inane.

[terrya]

34. The Catholic Church has basically said that.

The Catholic Church is, to their credit, against the death penalty. That is a position I agree with.

But you read that statement again. According to the Catholic Church, there is NOTHING apparently wrong, nothing to condemn, for using the death penalty to execute people solely because of their sexual orientation. You, I, everyone here must know that there are countries that do this...Iran and Saudi Arabia has executed gays. But the Catholic Church refuses to condemn this.

[Marrah_G]

41. I do. You pretend like Pope's are men of Peace.

Look back at the history. That is far from the Truth. They are about Power, Wealth, and Control.

They will advocate for whatever suits their purpose at the time.

Just ask the Jews in Germany....oh wait.....

This Pope is not a man of Peace and Love.

[rug]

56. Is it that difficult to stick to a point?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

75. yes, and to pretend otherwise is excusing the churches bigotry again. nt

[rug]

77. You do not combat bigotry by misreading and misstating.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

79. you do not excuse the catholic church by misreading and misstating

[Lyric]

138. Does it really matter if it's the death penalty or prison or beating or torture or castration?

Criminalization implies a penalty--a punishment--for being gay. You are focusing solely on the death penalty, when the truth is that ANY punishment for being gay (which includes having sex as a gay person) is morally abhorrent and disgusting, and any organization that SUPPORTS punishment for being gay is morally bankrupt and spiritually putrefied to the core.

It's pointless to defend the indefensible. There is absolutely no moral justification for the Vatican's position--none. I am thankful every day that my liberal Catholic friends do not agree with what the Vatican says, but I admit that it makes me feel torn inside to know that their church membership helps to support the structure that has placed someone like Ratz in a position of moral authority in the world--if not financially, then at least in terms of power and property.

I would never ask a friend to leave a church for my sake, but I admit that I would damned near fall on my knees and weep with relief to hear that a friend chose to do so on their own. I am only human, in the end, and I fear what Vatican power can do to my gay brothers and sisters worldwide. We are (comparatively, at least) "safe" in America, but in poor countries with high levels of Catholicism? Why should a poor African or Latin American gay person suffer prison, torture, beating, or even death because Rome has lost its grace?

There are human lives on the line. You claim that Nance was dishonest; do you truly believe that nobody will die because the Vatican has thrown its support toward keeping homosexuality criminal? Even if the death penalty was completely removed as an option, would you sleep better at night knowing that gay people were only being beaten, castrated, and/or imprisoned in the name of Christ? Do you think that would absolve the Vatican hierarchy of their lack of human compassion?

[rug]

140. This is far better than the OP.

No church should rely on any state to enforce its morality. Obviously there should be no criminal penalties of any kind.

So, why is it necessary to dishonestly couch the issue by stridently and incorrectly writing a church wants to execute gay people. It's dishonest, distracting and wrong.

[Barb in Atl]

144. Just like he advocates the death of people...

when he says that condoms shouldn't be used (and HIV is spread).

[donco6]

184. Absolutely.

And, I notice, no reply from the Catholic apologists to this point either.

[Marrah_G]

37. The Vatican and the Pope are both Corrupt beyond repair

The current Pope is a Vain, Greedy, Hated-filled Nazi asshole.

[jbane]

42. lighten up a little

your ruining our holiday season.

[Marrah_G]

43. You forgot the sarcasm tag right?

[polmaven]

65. I sure hope so!

If not...well...Wow!

[Rhythm]

100. Sarcasm tags out-of-stock? Here... you can have one of mine

[OneBlueSky]

45. hey . . . think about it . . . Jesus wore a dress, hung out with 12 guys, . . .

and was always talking about "loving your brother" . . . hmmmm . . .

[mnhtnbb]

46. A delightful and wonderfully appropriate use of the f bomb!

[bertman]

47. The Holy "See" only sees what it wants to see just like it has been doing since its inception.

The catholic church, like all others, is simply a mechanism for controlling people. It was devised as such by the Roman Emperor Constantine and continues in that vein to the present.

Just like every government that relies upon fear of the "other", the church could not exist and prosper without enemies to rail against. Strangely it has selected homosexuals as one of those enemies when, in fact, so many of its clergy are homosexuals.

But, never underestimate the power of the church to do exactly the opposite of what it preaches.

Thank you for speaking your mind, Nance. I agree with you totally.

P.S. What is scary as hell to me is how many catholic homosexuals there are. I know several devout catholics who turn a deaf ear when I remind them of the way their church persecutes their kind. And the lesbians who are still in the church are simply beyond belief, given the history of misogyny and anti-homosexuality of the church. Religious indoctrination is a powerful tool.

[Bluenorthwest]

50. Thanks for this

If I try to get specific, I become far less restrained than you, and that is saying something! All I want to add is an image from a childhood visit to the Vatacin, during the time of Paul the 6th.
Downstairs at St Pete's they displayed the remains of ancient Popes in glass coffins, skeletal figures with full adornments and finery. This became the image of the Church in my mind: a dead boney finger with a million dollars worth of rings on it. Money that could feed people, money that could free people, left on a rotting corpse for centuries.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rasputin1952]

52. Actually, Jesus did give an 11th Commandment...

"Love thy brother as you love yourself".

Of course, this is meant in the broadest sense, ie, we are to love everyone equally and w/o
limits, not the apparent sexual connotations some would apply. In fact, sex is rarely mentioned by jesus, but hypocrisy is the main component of most of His teachings. Biggest trap for humans, is to fall into the hypocisy hole. No matter ho well estabished an argument may be, say, don't steal, and then to take everything you can, sort of negates the whole message. That is one reason why, if there is a hell, it is stocked up pretty well w/hypocrites and those who have bastarddized the teaching of all of the world's great religions.

Thinking about the "sex" angle in Christianity...where was the male when the female was brought before Jesus for adultry? Seems to me, he should have been part of the "condemnation" by the Pharisees. It shows the hypocrisy of the situation.

[TechBear_Seattle]

57. That is the "summary of the Law" and is older than Jesus

It was an integral part of the Pharisee doctrines, which served as the basis for modern Judaism after the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE, and can be found in Essene and other writings put down as much as a 150 years before the time Jesus was supposed to have lived.

This same story has been attributed to a number of Jewish scholars and sages, even several Essene and Zealot teachers, but the version involving Maimonides is probably the most famous:

Several hooligans were teasing Maimonides about the complex rules and regulations that made up Jewish religious law. They threatened to beat him up if he could not teach them about Judaism while standing on one leg. The sage calmly picked up one foot and said, "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself." He then put his foot back on the ground and added, "All the rest is commentary."

[rasputin1952]

62. Most excellent summary...

but actually it goes back further than that...all the way back to Confucious, and probably long before that as well.

I have often wondered where Jesus went during the 12 or so years he was developing...I think he made a trip East, and learned a great many things, but no one can be sure.

The crux of his teachings are Love, Forgiveness, Empathy, Understanding and a host of things that would help the less fortunate rise above their stations in life.

[TechBear_Seattle]

64. It's pretty much a universal doctrine, necessary to maintain good social order

But Confucious is very unlikely to have been a part of the Christian tradition.

[TechBear_Seattle]

53. Benedict is the most misnamed pope EVER

The name "benedict" can be translated from Latin as "good words." I personally call him Maladict, "evil words," because almost everything that has come out of his mouth, both as Pontiff and during his earlier job as Chief High Inquisitor is pure, unmitigated evil that has nothing at all to do with what Jesus taught.

Supposedly, Saint Malachy had a vision back in the early 12th century which was written down as a prophesy regarding the next 112 popes. This alleged vision, "found" and first published in 1595. According to this list of Popes, Maladict is the next-to-last. I can easily see why.

As always, Nance, this is very well written. I dare say it even exceeds my high expectations of your work.

[Prophet 451]

170. Pope Palpatine I

My other half and I originally started calling him that before he was even invested, based purely on physical resemblance.

[TechBear_Seattle]

176. Alas, the humor is drowned by reality

He really does want to create an empire, with him sitting on the highest throne.

[theFrankFactor]

55. Kick Ass Nance!

My religion? The religion of no religion. My church? The church of no church.

[bluedawg12]

58. Note how the Church turns a blind eye to "anti-gays laws" in Poland

Found this on a pro-Catholic web site, geesh, but the EU statement is worth a look.

Poland is living up to Rattys boyhood youth/jungen group ideals.

Notice how the Church says nothing about heavily Catholic Poland’s persecution of gays?

Also, this EU resolution is the basis, apparently, of the Church's "fear" of the UN resolution, namely, that it tackles the issues of hate and bigotry head on.

Heaven forbid that someone actualy speaks up truthfully for gay/human rights.


http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/apr/070428a.html

Text of European Parliament Resolution Condemning "Homophobia"

P6_TA-PROV(2007)0167

.........

Homophobia in Europe
European Parliament resolution of 26 April 2007 on homophobia in Europe

G. whereas in its above-mentioned resolution of 15 June 2006, Parliament has already expressed its serious concern at the situation in Europe and notably in Poland, condemning the declarations of incitement to hatred and violence by the leaders of the Party of the League of Polish Families and, notably, by the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Education,

H. whereas in March 2007 the Polish Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Education announced draft legislation punishing 'homosexual propaganda' in schools, and illustrated its content, which is to provide for dismissing, fining or imprisoning school heads, teachers and pupils in the event of LGBT rights 'activism' in schools,

I. whereas the Polish Deputy Minister for Education confirmed that the administration is drafting such legislation and declared that 'teachers who reveal their homosexuality will be fired from work'; whereas various members of the Polish Government reacted in different ways, leaving it unclear whether the legislation will in fact be proposed,

J. whereas the Polish Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Education has expressed a desire to promote the adoption of similar laws at European level,

K. whereas the proposed legislation received the support of the Polish Prime Minister, who declared that 'promoting a homosexual lifestyle for young people in school as an alternative to normal life goes too far, and that these kinds of initiatives in schools have to be stopped', thus presenting a distorted interpretation of education and tolerance,

L. whereas the Polish Ombudsman for Children has stated that she is preparing a list of jobs for which homosexuals are unfit,

M. whereas in June 2006 the State Prosecutor's office ordered checks on the funding of LGBT organisations in connection with 'criminal movements' and their presence in schools, in order to find traces of criminal activities, without any result,

N. whereas on 8 June 2006 the Polish Government sacked the head of the Centre for Teacher Development and prohibited the distribution of an official Council of Europe anti discrimination manual, and whereas the new head of the Centre stated on 9 October 2006 that 'improper patterns must not be present in schools, because the objective of school is to explain the difference between good and evil, beauty and ugliness… school must explain that homosexual practices lead to drama, emptiness and degeneracy',

O. whereas Secretary-General of the Council of Europe Terry Davis reacted to the events described by stating that 'the Polish Government is free to decide whether it wishes to use Council of Europe material for human rights education, but if the teaching material is optional, the values and principles contained therein are certainly not' and expressed concern about 'some policies promoting homophobia … and homophobic behaviours being accepted by the government',

P. whereas the Polish Government has also denied funding for projects sponsored by LGBT organisations in the framework of the European Youth Programme, and illustrated this decision in a letter to those organisations by stating that 'the policy of the Ministry does not support actions that aim to propagate homosexual behaviour and such an attitude among young people ... the role of the Ministry is not to support cooperation with homosexual organisations',

...............

[defendandprotect]

85. Poland is a victim of Catholic teachings ... anti-semitism, homophobia --

That's why Hitler put the first concentration camps in Poland --

And why Vatican/Catholic teachings re Jews is still recognized as having

laid the way for the Jewish Holocaust in Germany --

[bluedawg12]

109. The Church has a record of turning a blind eye to WWII era persecution

and a nice record with the inquisition and now, they still pamper those whose policies push outright discrimination and mimick WWII era type work-law restrictions. The language of some of the Polish policies disregardig gays as human beings are hideous especially in light of their WWII history.

[defendandprotect]

137. We agree ...

and I hope that soon Catholics will be totally claiming the church for

themselves and deciding that these hateful teachings must go --

[donco6]

185. "Blind eye" is far too kind. They LOVE those laws.

Most were implemented under the former pope anyway.

[pleah]

59. K&R I couldn't have said it better.

[Jennicut]

60. Jesus was not judgementalm maybe they can remember that

[demwing]

67. Actually, the only people Jesus judged were the falsely religious

and he went outside the church where the money changers set up business and kicked their ever loving asses.

[saltpoint]

61. This don't need no kick but I'm gonna kick it anyway.

Just try and stop me.

[helderheid]

69. WHAT YOU SAID!

[Indepatriot]

70. And a hearty F#CK RIGHT OFF

To all hypocrites, regardless of their affiliations or lack their of, who believe anyone is lesser than they. To them I'd say; If your searching for "sinners" to persecute, look first in the mirror.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

86. i looked. i saw a person who is persecuted but one who has no particular desire to persecute

just to point out that bigots should not pretend they are not bigots. people should not worship bigots.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

71. thank you nance greggs

[TrogL]

72. What the Bible actually says about homosexuality

http://members.shaw.ca/trogl/bibquote.html

[defendandprotect]

87. "We believe that the Holy Bible was written by men" ....

and that's pretty much all we need to remember --

and they wrote it to cement patriarchy ---

[Baby Snooks]

73. "Glad I'm not a Christian...."

Jung once said he was glad he was not a Jungian. I suspect Christ at this point would say he was glad he was not a Christian.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

74. I'm not offended. I just wasted my time, that's all.

Sigh.

[moonlady0623]

76. Recovering Catholic Here

and Nance, you just tore away another veil. THANK YOU. From the time I was five years old and Sister Anthony told me that if I turned around in church I'd turn into a pillar of salt I've KNOWN the whole bloody mess was all about mind control. That was back in 1957; I dropped the rest of it in the '70s -- took that long because I met a priest who Got It, but he became a Buddhist.

Ironically, the first lesson in the Baltimore Catechism has become the foundation of my spirituality:

Q: What is God?
A: God is Everything

Q: Where is God?
A: God is Everywhere

[Warpy]

81. I told the "body of Christ" to piss off

when I was ten. A stuffed shirt priest visited the classroom and gave us a long winded lecture on how it was the duty of a woman to die in childbirth because her baby might be male, something that then devolved into a diatribe against abortion.

Well, I was ten and I didn't have much of a clue what abortion was, but I did know what male children were and I knew I didn't want to die to make room for another one so I went home and started a campaign to get myself the hell out of Catholic school.

The campaign was successful and I went to public school the next fall.

The deep seated hypocrisy of that institution has always stayed with me as an example of what I never, ever wanted to become. Their fear and loathing of everything female is astonishing to me, but I suppose men who are denied the use and abuse of women soon come to despise them as the manifestation of a sexual nature they want to suppress. The disgust with gays is the disgust of anything "feminine" within a man.

It's a sick institution and I've never regretted my early rebellion.

That priest? Oh, he was caught diddling a female parishoner and defrocked. He married her and I've always felt deeply sorry for the poor woman.

[moonlady0623]

84. ROFL

"but I did know what male children were and I knew I didn't want to die to make room for another one"

I forgot to mention that, as the tallest girl, I was amazingly pissed when I had to walk in last for Confirmation. By that time I'd figured out that without women, men would starve to death in filthy houses. Screw That Shit.

[defendandprotect]

139. You were braver and smarter tha me ....

or is that I ...???

Anyway, amazingly, Catholic school kids I knew -- like me --

didn't complain either at home or to one another.

We knew these were the good times and that some of our

parents and family had suffered worse in earlier days.

It was decades before I heard my sibling's horror stories.

I was 12 before I was able to abandon them --

I went to Cathedral High but they didn't do religion and had

no control over your life.

It was finally over -- But it's a long recovery.

Imagine the 6th grade lay teacher telling stories of Catholic

martyrs all day -- with full details of pain and suffering--!!

Goid for you -- guts and gumption -- important traits.

[happygoluckytoyou]

83. ATTEND CHURCH ! ! ! it really bothers THEM when you publically use these PUBLIC facilities ! ! !

[defendandprotect]

88. Thank you -- and hopefully no Democrat is supporting homophobic teachings ...

[jaksavage]

89. Religion is the nose ring

leading the bull of spirituality.

[Deep13]

90. I absolutely agree, but for different reasons.

Frankly, the prohibition against homosexuality is pretty well grounded in theology. The Old Testament and Romans specifically condemn it (among males, anyway). Plus the whole hating anything that can give pleasure on Earth thing allows causes sexuality to be specifically for procreation and not any other purpose. To name a sex act (hetero or homo) that does not result in pregnancy is to name a prohibition on it.

The cannonical Gospels (which are not first-hand accounts) indicate that JC disappoved of anything that gave pleasure or comfort in this world. Christian theology is clear: only the afterlife matters. Paul goes so far as to tell men that if they GOTTA have sex, it is best to get married, but avoiding women is best.

The problem, therefore, is not a misinterpretation of the Christian message, but the implausibility of that message in the first place. Ultimately, the vilification of human sexuality including homosexuality is the result of irrational beliefs about god and the nature of the universe. A belief system that commands a person to suffer in this world in order to be "saved" in an imagined afterlife is unethical and irrational and would not be accepted at all if it were not for the fear of hell or of Earthly authority enforcing conformity.

Frankly, Christianity generally and Catholicism in particular reached Holy Mo-Fo Church status ages ago. One example is that while Galileo was not reprived from heretic status until the 1990s, NO ONE involved in the Nazi party or government has EVER been excommunicated. A rank and file Catholic American faces excommunication for voting Democratic, but not even Hitler, a Catholic himself at least officially, was ever excommunicated. And the only reason they do not still torture and burn people alive for disagreeing with them is because the liberal Western governments will not allow it. In less developed places, they still actively oppose the liberation of women and the use of birth control. Even in modern democracies the RC Church exerts influence over public policy to a shocking degree. In the 1990s, the Church flew Mother Theresa to Ireland to campaign against the right of women to divorce abusive husbands. And this year, the collaberation between the RC and Mormon churches overturned a preexisting right for gays to marry in California, the one of the bluest of states.

The good intentions and good deeds of many Catholics notwithstanding, the problem is the central doctrine of Christianity and the willingness of otherwise normal people to believe it and not any extremist faction. Really, what can possible be "extreme" when it comes to saving a person from eternal damnation. A moderate, therefore, is just someone who is not convinced of the truth of the doctrine or is unwilling to act on it.

[Duppers]

120. Excellent points...

"NO ONE involved in the Nazi party or government has EVER been excommunicated. A rank and file Catholic American faces excommunication for voting Democratic, but not even Hitler, a Catholic himself at least officially, was ever excommunicated."











Yeah, the church has always had their priorities straight, haven't they?!
Apologies came way too late. http://www.religioustolerance.org/popeapo2.htm

[kleec]

93. Religions want to control you

I look forward to your posts! You say the things I think but do not seem to have the ability to write, so glad you have that wonderful ability. As a former catholic, I didn't walk away from their teachings, I ran. I have witnessed priests doing very unpriestly acts. As a young child I was never comfortable in church, and, as I am far, far away from being a child I have learned to pay attention to kids intrinsic abilities to ferret out bullshit! If only I had known way back then to pay attention to those feelings.....oh well. As I have evolved I have become so much more aware of how these various religions try to tell others how they are supposed to be. I believe that they simply want your money and control over your thinking, and, for many to be a party to whatever political party that religion believes will enhance their coffers. Established religions, for me, have absolutely nothing to offer that cannot be achieved on one's own. As others have stated on this thread honoring, respecting, caring about and loving other is really all it takes. This helps us all, not just the few who believe they are the 'chosen' ones.

Civil rights apply to everyone. The Pope should just stay the hell at the Vatican and keep his misguided 'teachings' to himself and stop generating hate..period. All of this hierarchy is total b.s.

Thanks for your rants.

[Taverner]

98. Yep - the Church, whether it be Catholic or Baptist, survives by convincing us all we are broken

And then offers to sell us the cure

[Taverner]

97. Sing it SISTER!!!!

Of course my disdain for the Vatican can hardly be concealed...

[Tommy_Carcetti]

99. Economy is in a free fall. People are losing their houses. We're in two wars. But go ahead....

....let's go ahead and broad base and religious flame bait.

[bluedawg12]

111. Good point! Despite all of the crises, 9-11, two wars, economic collapse

and Katrina, the right wing still had time to gay bash, gay bait and enough funding and enthusiasm to push mini-DOMA laws in various States AND mount a Hate8 initiative.

I guess progressives also have found the time to fight them!

Progressives learn well and quickly, we too can fight on more than one front at a time. And, yes, I do see you icon and agree with you, just saying it in another way.

peace-
bd12

[CaliforniaPeggy]

101. My dear Nance...

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, does it better...

A fearsome and righteous wrath we have here!

Beautifully said, as usual...

K&R

[flygal]

102. damn I wish I could do that

write in a way that just sums it all up - bravo

My mother pulled us out of sunday school after dealing with a small boy who was molested and then getting absolutely no where with the church - this was 1970. We were the heathens not going to church but actually turned out not too bad compared to those doing the name calling. Again - I can not write like you so I'll stop - but you really hit it! KnR

[demigoddess]

103. amen

you said it best

[valerief]

108. The Pope s/b prosecuted for hate crimes! And you're absolutely right. The irony is soooo rich.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rug]

112. Nice summary of the thread.

[David Zephyr]

113. K&R.

Ratzinger is lower than a rat.

[NBachers]

115. We've all got a soul and we were all created by God

if you believe in this kind of thing.

Once you get rid of the meat 'n' bones, the rubber chicken suit, what's left is our own divine template.

Created by God so he could reflect his own love back to him/her (whatever) self.

So were gay people created without a soul; do they not reflect God's love back to God's self?

And if you don't buy the god crap, then don't they still contain, within themselves, the essence of humanity we all share?

Ratzinger is the George W Bush of popes.

[deaniac21]

118. Really Odd. I'd be willing to bet that the priesthood is 70% gay

in America.

[Duppers]

122. yes. ah, the irony

The double-standard-ed hypocrites.

[mt13]

119. beautifully said...

K&R!

being a non-practicing catholic turned agnostic, i lost faith in the church a LONG time ago. i always loved what Christ stood for and taught. even though i do not believe he was the "son of god", i always felt he was a Ghandi, a MLK jr, a Dalai Lama, a Barack Obama. the messages i took from him was LOVE is the answer, being accepting of all is the right way to be, do not judge others lest you be judged, love thy neighbor. i do not recall any "strings" attached to those sentiments, by "strings," i mean race, creed, sex or sexual orientation.

[tomreedtoon]

121. Nice of you to catch up, Ms. Greggs.

I left the Catholic Church, unofficially and quietly, when it denied my sister a divorce from her abusive and ultimately psychopathic husband. I didn't offend my still-believing mother with an open breach, because I thought a woman losing her soul to Alzheimer's needed whatever she could cling to. So I didn't get all public about it.

The Church has been steadily growing worse and worse, ever since Kavenaugh's book "A Modern Priest Looks at His Outdated Church" dropped a bomb into the collection plate. I bought a reprint of that book, and while Kavenaugh has been through bad times (defrocked, divorced, problems in the secular world, and a thickly over-intellectual writing style) he is still a piercing critic. And I credit him with being the first to confront the Church with its faults since Martin Luther went around looking for a hammer and nail to tack up his theses.

I take no offense at what you say, Ms. Greggs. I guess I am a bit upset because you're trailing the parade that started a few decades ago, and are still expressing outrage. Nothing the Catholic Church could do would surprise me in the least, and I'm surprised that you're surprised.

[NanceGreggs]

124. I left the Catholic church when I was 17 ...

... and my mother finally gave up on "forcing me" to attend Mass, etc.

I closed my piece with "Why am I NOT surprised", because I'm not. But I am prompted to vent my outrage with every new outrage the church comes up with.

[tomreedtoon]

141. Well, I guess you've found a hobby.

I rant against the great evils of this world - reality shows, soap operas, so-called "professional" teachers and violent sports figures - but it does no good. Eventually all you can do is throw up your hands, walk away and just not associate with them any more. That's how I finally came to terms with the Catholic Church.

[saltpoint]

154. misplaced post -- my stupid -- sorry

[AngryOldDem]

180. Sometimes all you can do IS walk away.

You can't reason with unreasonableness. You can't divine sanity out of pure nuttiness. You can't glean any kind of good from what is increasingly becoming blind, abject hate and prejudice.

I, too, have walked away from the Church. I converted -- so my level of skepticism was, perhaps, higher than some at the outset -- but I tried, I really did, to understand why the Church teaches as she does, and believes what she does. After awhile, I could no longer do it. Hence, my departure.

I always keep in mind, though, this: Christ gave only two commandments. Love thy God with all they heart, might, and soul, and love thy neighbor as thyself. All the rest, as they say, is commentary. Whenever I allow myself to get incensed over the latest outrage from Rome, I remind myself of that. And it really helps to regain perspective.

The Church will not change. At least, not in our lifetimes. So it is better to just shake the dust off one's sandals and move on to more fruitful pursuits of one's energies and emotions.

[mentalslavery]

123. I'm starting to see the value in this religion thing.....

basically, its the perfect front for a criminal organization.

[jetphixer]

125. It Is a criminal Org

Supported the Nazi's in ww2 got more money than god I was a RC i quit long ago

[BlueMTexpat]

127. "Cradle Catholic" here ...

Irish Catholic dad, English Protestant mom. In my youthful innocence, I didn't understood why people got so bent out of shape when I presumed that I was Catholic AND Protestant, just as I was Irish AND English. Yes, I understood why later on, I just never could believe that the label told the whole story. To me, there were people who did good and people who did not and the religions they claimed adherence to were not the guarantors of which person did what. I do not hate the Catholic religion itself but I do hate the hypocrisy in its practice that engenders a climate where sexuality cannot be addressed or discussed rationally, where women are truly considered as second-class human beings, where pedophiles are protected but, as is the case with article posted, homosexuality is demonized ... with deathly consequences to human beings who are just as worthy of respect as I am.

I also do not hate Christianity in general or any other religion but I believe that all religions have been corrupted by those with agendas. As a matter of fact, I have known many Jews, Muslims and atheists, among others, who better manifest "christian" behavior in their lifestyles and treatment of others than many Christians do, especially those "Christians" who most ostentatiously profess their so-called "Christianity" and wish to impose that version ... and that version alone ... on everyone else.

I didn't like that I was taught that my mother and everyone in my family who was NOT Catholic was going to Hell or heard from my non-Catholic relatives that my siblings and I were on the road to Hell because we WERE Catholic. Obviously, someone had wires crossed somewhere. I couldn't believe that my religious belief would be the only bright-line criterion for such a momentous and infinite outcome. I still don't.

To make a long story short, I no longer believe in ANY religion as that religion has been transmitted to us. I left Catholicism many years ago, even though I still love some things, especially the music and some of the rituals that bring comfort. Each religion reflects an agenda that I cannot fully support, however. When that agenda refers to exclusivity in any way, it loses me completely because I believe that the best part of any religion is universal love. Those whom I most admire manifest that love in their lives and their actions towards others.

Benny XVI, unfortunately, is not a person whom I admire because he very simply does not manifest the love that a religious leader should. This report is merely the latest proof of that. Too bad for him ... and worse for the Catholic Church if it wants to remain meaningful for those who still do believe.

[tom_paine]

128. Right ON, Nance! The GLBT community has been treated so badly for so long

(and what a euphemism "treated badly" is!)

That it is about damned time people moved forward in their thinking about a sect of people who have always been with us and have as much right to be free and, as Washington said, "receive all the benefits of Civil Society" as any other group, sect, race, or religion of humanity.

And once again, there is the Catholic Church, still stuck in the Dark Ages, where every day I guess Galileos are bullied into submission. The Cathloic Church's general idea of heaven, I think, is where the people are meek sheep to be neverendingly shorn, they never ask a question, and thy have been denied so much basic knowledge that they wouldn't know what question to ask if they even had a mind to do so.

[jetphixer]

130. like 2 say

I really don't care what the the wholly roman empire says or thinks, I was raised one I quit long ago. If the Homo thing is so bad with them how come the good padres like little boys??

[JackBeck]

135. Pedophilia is a sickness that is not defined by the gender of the abused.

And don't forget, both young girls and boys were abused.

[bluedawg12]

155. The real question is

Why doesn't the church take an activist view of adults who experience sexual preference for prepubescent children?

Consenting adults are not their problem. Could it be misdirection and conflation?

[Usrename]

134. You are right, of course.

This pegs the outrage meter. It's right up there with sending in a SWAT team to serve a search warrant on an Amish family.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Gregorian]

136. Thank you.

I consider myself a Christian. And I'm broad minded. And I can handle all kinds of things. Get in front of me on the highway and go slow, and you'll hear the devil swearing. But the important stuff? There is no question.

Thank you. We need more like you. People who can see. And think. And who know and care.

[jeff30997]

142. If Jeebus came back...

Pope Ratz would rush to hammer the first nail in.(BTW,I'm Catholic,on paper only, and all this crap

is making me sick.)

[scytherius]

143. Fuckin A n/t

nt

[Vektor]

145. Always spot on, Nance.

K&R for you, my dear.

[20score]

146. There is nothing like a little hypocrisy to spice up your evil deeds.

Or sanctimony in your apathy. (If they can help save lives, then they are culpable for the lives lost by their inaction.)

I was an Altar Boy at a Catholic grade school, but by the time I was twelve it was obvious to me that these people didn't get it. A pro-war priest. The Church against birth control in an over populated world; and the list goes on.

K&R

[eppur_se_muova]

148. But His Popiness wants to PROTECT LIFE! I saw it on a bumper sticker, so it must be true!

I knew this would be good ... when Nance doesn't get to the end of the title before laying in on, you know it's going to be good ... but this was the best calling-out of hypocrisy I've seen since ... well, I can't even remember. The French say c'est la vie, the Vatican says "not necessarily"?? indeed!

[ToolTex]

150. Thank you for this post Nance. We are honored by your words of support.

Your words give me hope for a future I have mostly given up hoping for.

[merh]

151. Jesus gave the cliff notes version and this pope can't follow the easy form

And when Jesus was asked what was the greatest commandment of all he responded that it is to love god with thy whole heart and soul. He continued by saying "second unto that is to love thy brother/neighbor as yourself."

[MadMaddie]

152. Right on Nance!!

The pope a former "Nazi Youth", who has been given the chance to redeem himself has shown again once a Nazi always a Nazi!!

The Catholic Church stood by during WWII and watched Jews, Gays, Gypsies get murdered. For today's church to even take this stance proves that the church back then was a passive participant. They did nothing to stop the attrocities....all of their admissions since WWII of failing to do something have been proven to be lies. They proved to us and the world what their intentions were back then...

K & R

[BlancheSplanchnik]

153. Well written! Thank You!! n/t

[saltpoint]

156. Just as an aside:

If you left the Church at age 17, it's the Church's loss.

Someone in that Church ought to have had the foresight to keep you as vital and close as possible for as long as possible.

That Church, IMO, could use your brains, your heart, and your vision.

[HughMoran]

157. Thank you for putting the spotlight on the massive hypocrisy that is "The Church"

We try and try to point out the laughable hypocrisy of their ways - the utter UNChristian message that they promote, yet they blindly sow the seeds of hate. Jesus would be enraged by his mutinous followers were he to return.

[sam sarrha]

162. here are 2 >>>link>>>> that explain the fundamentals and histories.. Nazis

http://www.insider-magazine.com/ChristianMafia.htm

"snip...My use of the term “Christian” is merely to clearly identify the criminal conspirators who have chosen to misuse their self-avowed devotion to Jesus Christ to advance a very un-Christian agenda. The term “Christian Mafia” is what several Washington politicians have termed the major conspirators and it is not intended to debase Christians or infer that they are criminals . I will also use the term Nazi – not for shock value – but to properly tag the political affiliations of the early founders of the so-called “Christian” power cult called the Fellowship...

...One philosophical fellow traveler of Vereide was the German Nazi philosopher Martin Heidegger, a colleague of Leo Strauss, the father of American neo-conservatism and the mentor of such present-day American neo-conservatives as Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz. Strauss’s close association with Heidegger and the Nazi idea of telling the big lie in order to justify the end goals – Machiavellianism on steroids -- did not help Strauss in Nazi Germany. Because he was Jewish, he was forced to emigrate to the United States, where he eventually began teaching neo-conservative political science at the University of Chicago. It is this confluence of right-wing philosophies that provides a political bridge between modern-day Christian Rightists (including so-called Christian Zionists) and the secular-oriented neo-conservatives who support a policy that sees a U.S.-Israeli alliance against Islam and European-oriented democratic socialism. For the dominion theologists, the United States is the new Israel, with a God-given mandate to establish dominion over the entire planet...snip"
--------------------------------------------------------------------

http://doggo.tripod.com/doggchrisdomin.html

"snip...Leo Strauss was born in 1899 and died in 1973. ... He is most famous for resuscitating Machiavelli and introducing his principles as the guiding philosophy of the neo-conservative movement. ... More than any other man, Strauss breathed upon conservatism, inspiring it to rise from its atrophied condition and its natural dislike of change and to embrace an unbounded new political ideology that rides on the back of a revolutionary steed, hailing even radical change; hence the name Neo-Conservatives.

Significantly, Dominionism is a form of Social Darwinism.<48> It inherently includes the religious belief that wealth-power is a sign of God’s election. That is, out of the masses of people and the multitude of nations, wealth, in and of itself, is thought to indicate God’s approval on men and nations whereas poverty and sickness reflect God’s disapproval.

(It was not until I read this article that I realized that this is a fundamental tenet of Dominionists.

Worldly wealth and power are signs of God's favor -- to attempt to limit or decrease one's wealth and power is to disrespect God.

On the contrary, God's elect on Earth are called upon to increase their wealth and power.

It is not sufficient for a man to be a millionaire, or for a country to have sovereignty within its borders -- a man must strive to increase his wealth as much as possible, and a Dominionist government's behavior toward its neighbors must be "invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity".

Furthermore, any attempt to decrease a person's or a country's wealth and power -- to take from the rich to give to the poor, to reduce military spending and power -- is a direct attack on God.)

If “Secular Humanists are the greatest threat to Christianity the world has ever known,” as theologian Francis Schaeffer claimed, then who are the Humanists? According to Dominionists, humanists are the folks who allow or encourage licentious behavior in America. They are the undisciplined revelers.

Put all the enemies of the Dominionists together, boil them down to liquid and bake them into the one single most highly derided and contaminated individual known to man, and you will have before you an image of the quintessential “liberal” -- one of those folks who wants to give liberally to the poor and needy -- who desires the welfare and happiness of all Americans -- who insists on safety regulations for your protection and who desires the preservation of your values -- those damnable people are the folks that must be reduced to powerlessness -- or worse: extinction. ...snip"

[Night_Nurse]

159. BRAVO!!! Nance, that was awesome! nt

[saltpoint]

160. Nance. You do your job when you offer your "rants" on DU

-- and then some.

It's been less than 24 hours and over 6,000 people have had a look at this. Likely more will as well.

Some here applaud your position. Some disagree. I hope no matter their position on your topic(s) here, there can be a moment when folks step back and say, Damn, this woman can bring it.

You write that you left the Church at 17.

Shame on those fools for not chasing you down the street to entreat you to return.

Shame on them.

[sam sarrha]

161. Conservatives minds lack "Fluidity", it's not a choice ..they are born that way..stats are they will

never change

i am getting to the point i think they need to be placed on reservations and prevented from breeding.. or they will destroy what is left of the planet and civilization

[raventattoo]

163. I fucking love you!

That was great.

I had not even heard about this. Thanks for the great rant, as always...

Oh...and this is from someone who gives a fuck less if my 8.5 year relationship is called a "marriage" or a "civil union"...not true--I prefer civil union. I'm kinda moderate that way. But I freaking hate "The Church", whether catholic, evangalist, muslim or any other organized religion. Deep down they are all a way of promoting some form of bigotry.

[Prophet 451]

168. *applause*

Well said, Nance.

[donco6]

169. Thank you. n/t

[newtothegame]

171. I agree, pretty hateful..

but you're preaching to the choir on hear anyways. Send this in as a LTTE or something.

Ed for spelling

[italian_progressive]

174. I agree completely with you

Hallo to everybody, I'm italian from Italy and grown protestant - quite a few protestants here, most are immigrants.
The statement of the Holy See is absolutely outrageous, but I think that it is politics, not religion at all.
As somebody in Italy noticed, most of the countries where homosexuals are legally persecuted, are the same countries where the catholics are persecuted. That means something I think: maybe the Holy See wants that catholics in those countries are seen in a more friendly way by the fondamentalists. In spite of the homosexuals. Maybe I have a perverted mind, but I can't think any other meaning of such a statement. More or less, as if we were in the 30s, and the Holy See wouldn't sign a document against Nazis' persecution of Jews, in order not to discriminate the Nazis..

[NanceGreggs]

181. Welcome to DU!

[L0oniX]

175. None of them ever care about the first 4 commandments, just the last 6...

and they can't even follow them. Why do they even keep trying to get everyone else to obey them? HYPOCRITS! When they obey all the commandments then they can preach doing the same to others and that will never happen.

[jbane]

177. Hey post, your taking up too much space.....

Time to move along.

[grantcart]

182. well the catholic church is behind the curve a little - 4-500 years

but they will catch up eventually.


They are now definitely against slavery.

[NanceGreggs]

183. ...

[donco6]

186. I hear there's agitation for female suffrage.

But I'm not holding my breath on that one.