More Mayhem & Death At Wal-Mart

[proud2BlibKansan]

Florida resident Patrick Donovan, 53, died over $393 in Wal-Mart merchandise, lying face down in the giant retailer's parking lot last week. The media reported the exact amount of Wal-Mart goods Donovan had allegedly shop-lifted---so we can quantify the value of this man's life.

In a reversal of the death of a 34 year old Wal-Mart worker last week under the feet of aggressive Wal-Mart shoppers, Donovan's death in Florida---three days after the Long Island incident---was at the hands of three Wal-Mart workers, who wrestled the alleged shoplifter to the ground, where the man died.

The Wal-Mart workers and one bystander held Donovan down, while one leaned on his back and another held down his arms and head. The police report says they told Donovan to stop fighting, and asked witnesses to call 911. By the time Donovan had stopped struggling, he had died.

"There will be no charges pressed," a spokeswoman for the city of North Myrtle Beach told the Sun News. Authorities said results from an autopsy in the case could take "a few months." In the meantime, officials simply concluded, "There is no criminal act." In the words of the County Coroner's office, "As far as I am concerned there is no case here." The family of Patrick Donovan is likely to conclude otherwise, and their lawyer might like to review the court records of one Stacy Driver.

more . . . http://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-norman/more-mayhem-death-at-wal_b_148922.html

[Muttocracy]

1. what do Wal-Mart's training videos tell them about how to handle shoplifters?! nt

[Maine-ah]

23. we were always told to get management.

don't try to be a hero, it's not worth your life.

[keroro gunsou]

24. that is correct

the video i watched mentioned that i should notify the nearest manager or loss prevention team member. most cases they got caught by the electronic tags, the most often shoplifted items at my store were dvds, cds, and ps3/360 games, soooooo... they had them tags in them.

[LostinVA]

29. Also, in most states, you can't make a shoplifter stay

When I was a bookstore manager in NC, we could ask the person to stay, or hope the cops got there first. That's all we could do, unless we were a licenses security guard or a cop. A few times, I went to the person, especially if they were kids, and asked for the merchandise back or I would call the cops.It worked on occasion.

Regardless, we would have never chased down a shoplifter, nor physically restrained them.

[carlyhippy]

2. did someone accidently stick in a dvd of COPS instead of the security training video??

what in the world did he steal that totalled that much?

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. I want to know that too.

[Incitatus]

8. electronics can add up pretty fast

Maybe he tried to run out with a PS3 or several video games and dvds.

[silverojo]

3. Same thing happened in Arizona, during the late 1980's

It wasn't Wally World, but the Smitty's chain of grocery stores. The shoplifter had only stolen a loaf of bread, but a handful of Smitty's employees wrestled the guy to the ground and killed him in the parking lot.

He was strangled with a strap that they use to pull the shopping carts.

Naturally, nobody was prosecuted for the murder. :mad:

[DontTreadOnMe]

5. We are a nation of laws!

IF you do the crime, you do the time! sarcasm on!

...unless you are a politician.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rurallib]

7. Yet Henry Paulson holds up congress in broad daylight

and they offer to drive the getaway car.
Well Bushie was looking for something to do when he retires. I hope he tries to shoplift at Wally world.

[ColbertWatcher]

9. "There is no criminal act" Wow.

Without an investigation, how does anyone know how the man died?

[DoctorMyEyes]

10. Killed a guy in Texas a couple of years ago too

I think it was over some sunglasses and diapers and I don't remember if they ever did resolve whether or not he'd actually paid for the items.

What I do remember is that they held the poor bastard to the hot pavement till he died, ignoring pleas from shoppers and at least one store employee that they stop pressing him so hard into the 100 plus degree asphalt.

Walmart has a bad habit of recklessly killing people.


edited to add that if I'd clicked on the link before commenting I would have known that it already mentioned this case. oops.

[Titus Andronicus]

11. Shoplifting does not qualify for the death penalty.

[ColbertWatcher]

19. Exactly. I guess the Bush Administration has promoted Wal-Mart employees ...

... to Homeland Deputies!

[ColbertWatcher]

20. Just like they did with one of the CEOs of a grocery store ...

... that was the target of a strike in Southern California back in 2003 (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/01/28/BUGCJ4J80L1.DTL).

Vons store's CEO, Stephen Burd was anointed protected status by then DHS minister Tom Ridge so his beautiful mind wouldn't be bothered by protesters (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Safeway#Political_contributions).

[Titus Andronicus]

65. The surveillence in Wal Mart probably comes from the

Homeland Security dept.

[Tutonic]

12. Uh I think the Walton sisters had better get out that check book.

Might need to crank up those Chinese slave labor mills, 24-7. Gotts bills to payy!

[BrklynLiberal]

13. It seems safe to assume that Wal-Mart's security is only INSIDE the store.

Sort of like the right-to-lifers..once the customers are out the door, they do not give a damn what happens to them..

[Gwendolyn]

14. The original, non-editorial piece said the man died at the hospital.

From the SunNews...


"The man died Nov. 29 after store employees stopped a possible shoplifter, according to a report from the North Myrtle Beach Department of Public Safety. The report said the man died at Grand Strand Regional Medical Center."

Call me crazy, but usually when people arrive at a hospital before dying there's a fair chance doctors can assess what the likely cause is. At any rate, asphyxiation from being squashed into the ground probably isn't the reason. In addition, one of the subduers was a retired police officer, and there were several witnesses, so perhaps the authorities are going with their assessments of what went down.

[LostinVA]

30. The OP says Florida -- but your poot says SC???

[exman]

51. one of the subdoers...

How often do suspects "accidentally" die while in police custody? Cops know how to kill you while "restraining"

[stopbush]

15. Wow! Good thing Sarah Palin stopped shopping at Wal-Mart and went for the designer duds.

Could you imagine what Wal-Mart employees would have done if she had taken $150,000 worth of merchandise back to Alaska that didn't belong to her? They probably would have hunted down her extended family and killed them too.

[ZombieHorde]

16. This is why shoplifters should always carry pepper spray!

[Triana]

17. What kind of f*cking vigilantiism is this?! If someone stole something - you call the cops...

..you do NOT murder the person YOURSELF - even if you work for the God of consumerism - Mal-Wart. The is a case of MURDER. The man, - IF he stole anything, had a right to a fair trial and representation - innocent until PROVEN guilty.

SINCE WHEN do store employees MURDER someone in the store parking lot for alleged theft?

[Gwendolyn]

18. How do you know he wasn't a sore-infested tweeker who died of a heart attack,

from all the excitement of being apprehended? None of the news articles have called it murder, so how do you know it is?

And apparently he didn't die in the parking lot, but in the hospital. Huffpo contributors can sometimes be a little dramatic.

[ColbertWatcher]

21. How do you know it's not?

I believe the poster is wondering why the Mal-Wart employees were given the power to try, convict and sentence the guy.

[Gwendolyn]

33. Perhaps you've never seen anyone get arrested for shoplifting at Saks?

Or attempting to leave a schmall? It isn't any different. Those who resist are usually subdued.

I hate Walmart much as anyone and have never stepped foot into one. But I find editorials like the Huffpo one funny, filled with false info (like where the man actually died) and confusing comparisons. They're just designed to fire up those who don't read too closely.

[ColbertWatcher]

42. If Saks employees killed a shoplifter, I'd feel the same way.

I thought in our criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups. The police who investigate crime and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders.

My TV lied to me!

[Gwendolyn]

48. Your TV didn't lie to you.

And Jack MCoy might take umbrage at your easy willingness to accept the opinion expressed in an editorial as fact. :)

It's only conjecture that those people killed the shoplifter by subduing him. He was taken to hospital, still breathing, where he died. It's been reported that there will be no investigation, so from that one could reasonably conclude that the doctors were able to assess the reason for his demise, and felt there was no blame to be laid. Perhaps the man had a heart attack. Maybe he was epileptic. Maybe he was a meth head already on the way out. There's always a personal risk involved when you break the law. Also funny how later on in the editorial, Walmart gets slammed because there wasn't ENOUGH security to keep someone from being jacked in the parking lot.

I guess people think it's best for stores to simply allow people to rob them, as there is the minute risk that the thief might be hurt. I'll be the ass who thinks otherwise, along with those others who've been the victims of violent jackings, home robberies and invasions. You tend to look at things a little differently. Shop lifting seems like nothing, but it's often one of many ways a criminal acts out.

[ColbertWatcher]

54. "opinion expressed in an editorial as fact." Hmm ...

An editorial?

Gee, who would benefit from such an editorial?

It seemed to me that you wanted to discuss things rationally, until this was posted:

'I guess people think it's best for stores to simply allow people to rob them..."

No one said that and there went your credibility in this matter.

[Gwendolyn]

61. Yes, it's an editorial piece.

People hate Walmart. I doubt this story would have garnered the same virulence or attention, if it had been a local mom and pop store, where loss of inventory would mean potentially going out of business.

What you and others are saying is that people shouldn't get involved when a crime has been committed, so I don't see how my credibility is shot. If I'm wrong, please elucidate me as to when and how it's appropriate to subdue a criminal.

[ColbertWatcher]

62. "people shouldn't get involved when a crime has been committed," Wrong. Again.

Your credibility is shot because you insist on exaggerating.

Subduing a person without killing them is not difficult.

I doubt the company would have fired the people had the alleged shoplifter ran away despite their best efforts.

What would have been wrong with allowing the police handle the situation, even if it took a few hours or even days?

[Gwendolyn]

64. Actually I find you are exaggerating.

You just want this guy to be a victim, because you hate Walmart. :) I don't, because I've seen enough shit. We all have our perceived differences.

When was the last time you subdued anyone. :) To make a call one way or another?

My beef is not so much about the killing of a human being, or those who commit crime, as I suppose even shop lifters get into heaven, ifn you believe in that sort of thing. Nor is it about people arresting criminals outside a Walmart, unlawfully.

My thing is more or less about the idiots who are pitch forkers because they want to believe whatever they've read is gold. :) Happens left or right. I absolutely HATE bad reporting.:)

Add to that editorials. Right and left.

[ColbertWatcher]

68. "You just want this guy to be a victim" Now, you're trying to reading my mind?

Please stop.

Calm down.

"When was the last time you subdued anyone."

You don't know me, you don't know what I am capable of. I suggest you stop being presumptuous.

In fact, I'll help you.

I'm done with this.

[Gwendolyn]

69. Good idea. I'm done too.

:)

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. And maybe he had AIDS or terminal cancer or . . . .

:crazy:

[Gwendolyn]

28. I brought it up because according to news reports he fought so hard to get away.

And apparently he was really sloppy in his thieving technique. Terminal cancer patients might make it out to steal, but rarely have the strength to fight off three men. Innocent people, as well as those who may be guilty but in their right minds, usually stop when approached by store personnel and explain themselves.

The assumption runs rampant through this thread that this man was some innocent who got "attacked," when it's just as likely that he was the kind of criminal who jacked old ladies for their purses and stole from stores to fund his meth habit...in which case it's very possible he expired from the physical strain of resisting arrest.

[ColbertWatcher]

43. "... it's very possible he expired ..." My guess is they sat on him and restricted his breathing.

My guess is they also had no idea what they were doing probably because they weren't trained to do what they did (security, proper restraint, first aid or jurisprudence)

[Gwendolyn]

49. He died in the hospital later, so I don't think it was the sitting on him that did it.

If they did in fact "sit" on him. That's your assumption.

[ColbertWatcher]

53. "That's your assumption." I think we're all assuming, since there has been no investigaiton n/t

[Lars39]

34. The people who apprehended him were not trained properly.

Police are trained to properly subdue people so that they do not kill them in the process. What this man stole is irrelevant. Those people killed him.

[Gwendolyn]

37. One of them was a former police officer.

[Lars39]

39. Then he should have known better than to let a crowd of people

do what they did.

[Gwendolyn]

40. What did the crowd of three do?

Again, you have no idea, nor do I, what transpired. The man was taken to hospital, where he died. Maybe they frightened him to death. Maybe they did hurt him. Perhaps he was unhealthy and suffered a heart attack...eye witnesses said he fought like a rabid dog. But point is, any store or mall would have likely undertaken the same action.

[Lars39]

41. And any store or mall would also be liable for his death.

There needs to be an investigation.

[ColbertWatcher]

47. I agree. Why should the corporation be trusted?

If the guy had stolen stuff, arrest his ass, but give him his trial.

Have we suddenly, if tacitly swallowed the GOP doctrine?

I want my Constitution back!

[ColbertWatcher]

46. "you have no idea, nor do I, what transpired." Which is why there should have been a trial.

"... any store or mall would have likely undertaken the same action."

And, they should be as liable for the man's death.

Even if they accidentally killed him.

[ColbertWatcher]

44. Gee. Why is he a former police officer? Retired? n/t

[Gwendolyn]

50. Yes, retired.

CW this story seems to interest you. Why don't you look up one of the news stories with actual facts? :)

I totally get your hatred of Walmart btw, and figure that's where your outrage is coming from.

[ColbertWatcher]

52. I don't "hate" Wal-Mart. I dislike what representatives for the company do.

I do "hate" what the GOP has done to our Constitution.

Everyone has the right to a speedy trial, especially the accused.

This thief didn't get the benefit of being accused.

Damn, "Brownie" got more consideration than that and he caused more damage.

Gee, and so did Blackwater mercenaries and Halliburton employees and Enron executives.

Why should a guy allegedly shoplifting at a store be treated like the leader of a South American drug cartel?

[Gwendolyn]

57. He didn't get the benefit of being accused...

... because he didn't wait to do so. He tried to run, and struggled with employees and a retired police officer instead. All he had to do was stand there till the cops came. No harm, no foul if he was innocent. And even if he was guilty.

Sorry, not really seeing what this has to do with Blackwater mercenaries, or Halliburton employees. Any of those criminals you listed would be bright enough to not resist arrest and ask for their lawyers instead.

Or are you implying that since the country has been raped by "big" criminals, all the small crap should be wiped off the slate? If someone steals your car, or robs your business, it's unimportant and needn't be prosecuted because politicians do worse?

[ColbertWatcher]

59. No. The untrained persons "detaining" him ruled that he didn't deserve such a quaint idea. n/t

[Gwendolyn]

60. First of all...

I rather enjoy debating with you. You're very calm and polite. :)

But back to Walmart. I loathe that corp so much I hate to stick up for them. But in this case, I don't think I am.

The shop lifter could have just relinquished his bags of ill gotten goods and waited for the cops, thus enjoying his speedy trial. He didn't. He decided he didn't want his speedy trial and preferred to run, and when that proved futile, fought instead. It's possible that the people holding him down hurt him mortally. Or, that he died of natural causes... heart attack, stoke, grand mal seizure, etc. Guess that was my real point, since the article claims he died at the scene, which isn't so.

Part of me agrees with you, in that it's best for citizens to never get involved in a crime as silly as shop lifting. But then guess you could say one shouldn't intervene if a rape or beat down has occurred since ordinary people might harm the criminal in those instances as well. Also, as I said earlier, once you've actually been victim to a crime... mugging, home robbery, etc... it might make one less likely to feel pity for criminals and possibly more attune to the damage they do, to ordinary people.

[ColbertWatcher]

63. I didn't say never.

At some point the guys trying to subdue this other guy had to think (yeah, I know, freakish concept) that it might not be worth it.

Yes, it's a matter of pride, but then what would have happened if one of them died instead? By accident or if the guy had a gun or other weapon.

Sometimes the "stuff" (toys, electronics, etc) is not worth it.

They chased him, they held him down, but would the company have fired them had the guy fought them and got away?

Sometimes it's best to leave things to the professionals. There's nothing wrong with doing your best and not winning just that one time.

[walldude]

67. Let's take a bit of the wind out of your sails shall we:

First you keep saying the man died in the hospital. You need to provide a link because this is from the Myrtle Beach paper:


"Another man outside the store said he was a retired officer, and he helped the employees wrestle Donovan to the ground until police arrived, the report stated.

The four held Donovan down. One leaned on his back and another held down his arms and head, while telling him to stop fighting, according to the report.

By the time Donovan had stopped struggling, he had died, said the report.

"Wal-Mart extends its sympathies to the family of the deceased," said Wal-mart spokesman Dan Fogleman in a statement. "We are cooperating with the police investigation and, given that investigations are still ongoing, any further comment would be best served coming from police."

Here's the link. If you are going to use "FACTS" try linking to them when you make an argument."
http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/news/local/story/697943.html

It also says in the article that the guy was "suspected" of shoplifting. That some customer claims they saw him steal something. So for all you know the guy didn't do anything and started running when people started chasing him.

All that besides, he didn't deserve to die. Guilty or Not.

[Jack_DeLeon]

22. If there was an actual theft then good...

however I've heard stories of "reciept checkers" getting aggressive because someone doesnt want to wait for their receipt to be checked.

If someone did actually watch this guy steal something then I have no problems with there being one less thief in the world.

[LostinVA]

32. Nice that in your world petty theft deserves the death peanlty

[Shardik]

36. And if it had been a six year old with a Snickers Bar?

Hey, "We've already established what you are, we're just quibbling over the price."

Really, death to thieves? So, as a kid, you never snagged something that didn't belong to you?

[LostinVA]

45. Even in Saudi Arabia they just cut off your hand

[moriah]

25. I'm *assuming* dude had a heart attack, but,,,,

I'm also assuming that someone broke procedure by trying to physically apprehend the suspected shoplifter.

At our local stores the people who come to investigate when the thing goes off are older greeters who are more likely to die of a heart attack *themselves* if they tried to restrain a shoplifter.

A bystander tried to join in the fun as well??? (To add for the slightly humor impaired, "fun" in this case is sarcastic, I don't believe it is fun to physically restrain someone and kill them in the process.)

I have to wonder about this one.

[Blue Diadem]

27. could have been asphyxiation

especially with 4 holding him down and one of them leaning on his back. The guy was probably struggling more because he couldn't breathe.

I wonder what their procedures are for regular employees to get involved. When I worked retail, only the security people and management could apprehend. We weren't even to confront someone because one of our other stores in our area had a female security guard get her face slashed up.

[LostinVA]

35. I'm betting that's what it was, too

Even when people are trained how to restrain people without killing them (ie cops), people still die if it isn't done exactly right.

[ColbertWatcher]

55. No one knows yet as there has not been an investigation. n/t

[Joanne98]

31. In America STUFF is more important than people!

[Lorien]

38. Isn't that the truth; STUFF has become more important

than anyone's life or anyone's future; all we have to do is look at the health of our planet to see that.

And this is how we got where we are: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=245076&mesg_id=247993

[Qibing Zero]

58. There it is, right there.

Sickening, and scary that this idea is put forth even on DU.

[LisaL]

56. I totally support not charging the workers.

[THUNDER HANDS]

66. i'd assume the cops reviewed the security cameras

that are in all walmart parking lots.