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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 08:50 PM
Original message
Can you drive an SUV and have environmental values?
Ah, NO!

I'm tired of hypocrites, even progressive ones.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Or 75mph in the left lane. That's just not 'green' driving. nt
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Finally, someone who realizes how speed wastes gas!
Not to mention that it's harder on your vehicle, AND increases the risk of fatalities in an accident.

As for the OP's question, I think some people need SUV's (preferably a hybrid, if they can afford it). But those jackasses who use them as a surrogate penis, or those trophy wives who drive them around the sunny suburbs of Phoenix...hell, no, they don't need 'em!!
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all.of.me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
86. I have a Ford Escape Hybrid. It is awesome!
I needed the space and the clearance, but first I needed good gas mileage. It fits the bill. I sold a 91 4Runner when I bought this in May, and the gas for that at 3.85 was about the same as my new car payment! But now, with gas at 1.79 as of today, I will pay about 20 a month for gas. That is so exciting!

That was off topic, though....

On a hybrid, you can see you gas mileage in real time. I have been doing a lot of hiway driving lately, and I noticed that I save considerably when I am simply *doing the speed limit*! Wow, what a concept! I watched the points go up and up and up on my last 9 hour trip home, just by doing 70-75, instead of 80. Even in lower speed limits, by lowering my speed 5 mph, I was getting better mileage. It was great to see! Cruise control works well for better mileage, too. I was never sure, but now I've watched it with me own eyes!
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
89. People Go 75 in the Slow Lane. The Fast Lane is for Over 85
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
97. Then, stay out of NJ
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Oh, brother. Hope you're a vegan, too.
And live in a hut. Without electricity.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I'll have you know have solar power for my hut.
Okay, replace hut with townhouse, but I did get a sweet deal on leasing a section of their solar farm from the local utility.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I'm really hoping for a good answer here.
Considering the global farm animal sector is responsible for 18 percent of all GHG emissions, more than the entire transportation sector, which includes the worlds cars, trucks, SUVs, airplanes, and ships.

Don't kill the messenger, though. The United Nations came up with it.

http://www.hsus.org/farm/news/pressrel/un_fao_agribusin...
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. If you'd stayed awake at the last meeting of AR Activists For World Domination,
you'd know we have the UN under our thumb now. :eyes:
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Ever since I rented that XTerra to liberate chickens
they won't let me get the newsletter. I'm such a hypocrite.

I really just should be killed for my hypocrisy.
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SmileyRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. LOL
great exchange you two. :)

I love the DU. :)
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
51. We're gonna make you sell the Mazdaspeed and pull the dogs to the vet in a trailer behind your Sugar
Muhahahahahahaha! :evilgrin:
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Sugar needs new tubes, tape and tires.
That's fucking petroleum, man. I'd be better off with a steak and an H2.

My hypocrisy has naught a boundary.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. You fail at maintainance. Bad bike guardian.
:spank:
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Believing Is Art Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
49. Jesus Christ!
I had no idea that agribusiness was that bad.
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
87. And make your own cotton to provide clothes for the fam.
Good gravy. This stuff is ridiculous.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. Toon
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. Sure.
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. Absolutly. n/t
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Help me understand how one value is compatible with the other...?
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Sure...
If your a scientist exploring anything from the rain forest to the artic to help quantify environmental impacts... more than likely your driving a Range Rover (eg. A SUV) so you can get where your going.

Peace,
MZr7

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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
36. Exceptions to every rule...
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 09:30 PM by RiverStone
OK, I'll grant scientists driving into the Amazon rain forest an exception - where without a 4X4 Range Rover they would surely get stuck (or some other 4X4)

But I can't grant that exception to the many, many folks that drive BIG just cause they want to - on roads minus the mud traps, vines, flora, and washouts that one may encounter in the Amazon basin. :)

For the record, I DO drive --- 14 miles one way to a job in rural Washington state. I have biked it, but not as practical in the winter. I drive a Honda CRX HF 1991 2 seater w/240K on it and a rebuilt engine, 45-50 mpg. Used to own a small 2.6 liter Chevy pickup, but sold it a few years ago to conserve. Not advocating purity, just attempts to do better, that is, if one has a choice to do better.





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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Well being a scientist/engineer I had to find the exception.... *LOL
I got your point and your dead on.. but your OP was so "absolute" I had to find the exception. Hope you didn't take it wrong and understood my point that nothing is absolute. Perhaps other than death and the jury is still out on that one.

That being said, I agree... if someone doesn't haul heavy loads (trucks mostly), doesn't need to go off road, or tow a trailer, then I see no need (other than the sheer mass advantage in a collision scenario) to own a SUV.

Peace,
MZr7
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Absolutely!
Oh MazeRat7, I could have placed within my post a lengthy disclaimer which categorizes all the exceptions (including fine scientists such as you in the jungle) --- but what fun is that?

One thing that is soooo fun about this place, is being perceived as the opposition once in a blue moon. I can't count the number of absolute statements we make around here. Tons of them, daily, hourly --- regarding what we feel passionate about.

Gitmo, the Iraq war of aggression, civil liberties, global warming etc.

But if one lands on in a contrary position - watch out on DU! I enjoy it actually, good practice.

My apologies for NOT including your valid exception, there were just too many to list. :hi:

peace back bro :)
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #17
68. I agree to a point...
I know a research biologist that would use that arguement for his gas guzzler. The thing is, he bought a gas guzzler that he actually used 2 or 3 times a year offroad, and God knows if he actually needed 4WD during those times. All the other times he was using that SUV to drive on pavement to market and other places a nice high mileage car would have been fine.

I think saying I need an SUV for the 0.001% of the miles I will put on the automobile isn't a good reason. You would actually save money buying a small car (cost, gas, insurance) and just renting an SUV when you need one for your field work.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hate the game, not the player
:P
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. Hm. *cough* Al Gore *cough*
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Big Al Gore fan here --- and unless there was NO other way to provide security
I'd say, he does not have to drive an SUV either.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Hm. *cough*Buzz Clik *cough*
LOL!!!!
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #15
64. Sorry, but I don't drive an SUV.
Edited on Sat Dec-06-08 07:38 AM by Buzz Clik
Honda hybrid, thank you very much.
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nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. ah... yes!
Especially since it's a blizzard outside right now. My Isuzu Rodeo is a compact suv; it's the only vehicle I have and I only drive it when the weather sucks. Most of the time it only fetchs groceries. Summers maybe 17 miles/week. How dare you make superficial judgments.
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. We make judgements all the time....
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 09:14 PM by RiverStone
From the auto executives that flew in corporate jets last week, to a neighbor that has 20 zillion Christmas lights, to folks that hunt for trophies on the wall (not food), to buying groceries that have tons of excess packaging.

Lifestyle choices --- in both walk and talk help define values, and our differences.

I assume if someone chooses to continue to drive an SUV, when they have a choice to drive a far more energy efficient vehicle is being less of an environmentalist than they could.

I'll own that assumption. Most folks do have a choice - but it may not be near as convenient.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
11. Is my tacoma an SUV?
I haul feed in it, and the 4wd gets me out of my unplowed (I don't own a plow) 100yd driveway, and down my unplowed private dirt road, and another 2 miles along the county dirt road to reach a paved road leading the 8 miles into town.

I've used it to drag a harrow around my arena, to move fences, to drag portable sheds from one place to another, to haul rocks, dirt, and sheep...all with a a 4 cyl. engine. I can't haul my horses, but it does just about everything else.

I only drive one vehicle. I don't live in a city with a mass transit system, and I don't live in a suburb with paved roads, plows, and street lights, either. I can't afford a full-sized truck to haul heavy loads, and a tractor, and a smaller vehicle for every day driving. I've made the best compromise I could for economy and fuel efficiency; I also manage any business I need to take care of on the way to work or home from work. I never drive all the way to town to run errands. While I may drive to town once or twice a month for a social occasion, the rest of the time, if I'm not at work, or managing some job that needs the truck at home, it's parked.

I have environmental values, and I'm not a hypocrite.



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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Yes and so is my Tundra... sort-of...
SUV's are generally built on the chassis of light trucks. I need my truck because there is not car that can haul the loads I often carry or get me up the mountain over a particular goat trail I need to follow.


While all we hear about are "SUV's being the "worst" ride out there....there are actually more trucks in the US than SUV's and basically SUV's are trucks with a different body.

Peace,
MZr7
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Popol Vuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
43. I drive a Tundra too.
But CO2 is not what's responsible for our climate change. Sun cycles are. Also, doesn't Neil Young drive a bio-diesel Hummer? http://biodieselreport.com/2008/01/22/biodiesel-hummer-... / Not that I would want one, but, that's just my personal choice. I like my Tundra because of how it drives and how much it comes in handy with all the camping I like to do.

For those who still believe CO2 is the cause of climate change. I bet any amount of money that my CO2 foot print is smaller than theirs even with my driving a Tundra.

Peace,
Popol Vuh
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #19
71. Trucks, light or heavy, have a purpose.
I'd love a truck, or something that fulfilled that purpose, that was more fuel efficient, or that used alternative fuel, or that was greener in any way.

Let me know when there IS one that I, that all truck drivers, can afford.

Meanwhile, my little truck does her job like the little engine that could.

I don't drive my truck for sport, or for "safety," or to fit a large family, or for status, or for recreational purposes, although it would serve for off-road traveling quite well. I use mine for practical, every day life events for people who live rurally.

:shrug:
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SmileyRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
34. Um
I think you are expected to give up your home and move to a high density cubicle in the city where you will never need a car, never use any animal product of any kind except your power, which is created with the flatulence of rescued housepets. These are the only true progressives.


Sorry, yes, I'm being smarmy.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #34
70. I was kind of thinking along the same lines.
And, more pointedly, recognizing that THIS is why rural areas are more often red than not. My area elected Obama. His coat tails would have had to be longer and brighter than the brightest comet that's ever lit the sky to evict our Congressional rep, though, and it didn't happen. No surprise.

Rural people are too often spurned, and scorned, by urban progressives who can't see that different settings require different solutions.

Democrats could gain a better foothold with rural voters if they were willing to see outside their own city povs.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
14. Me. Big hypocrite. No question.
Do let me know when I can trade it in for a hybrid. Can't wait.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. *
Zzzzzzzzzzz.

Jesus, the Inauguration can't come soon enough. Boredom seems to make DU preachy as all fuckin' get-out.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. For those not as environmentally pure as thou
drive a mile on their roads. Do not fling mud unless your hose is big enough to wash it off your windows.


Harrruuummmpphhh.
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tabbycat31 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. how big an SUV
My car is classified as an SUV, but I can get 30 MPG on it. I originally wanted to replace my dead Escort wtih something more fuel-efficient, like a Prius, but my parents made me a deal that I could not refuse with their Subaru. So I took that out of financial necessity.

It's a Subaru Forester, which is smaller than most SUV's on the market.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
79. A Suburu Forrester isn't an SUV in the sense that the OP meant it.
It was just marketed as an SUV when that was still cool.

Tesha

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SmileyRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. 3 words
total environmental impact.

My fav hypocritical thing of the moment is a woman I work with who owns a prius - that every single day rags on me for my SUV in spite of the fact I haul 7 other people to work every day in it. This woman is quite possibly the most wasteful person I have ever known. Eats out most of her meals and thinks nothing of throwing the uneaten food away, has a 2500 sq ft house for 2 people, has spent years shopping like there's no tomorrow, looks down her nose at yard sales, thrift shops and handmedowns, would not use the back side of copy machine mistakes for note pads if her life depended on it. And you cannot tell her anything because SHE has a prius and Toyota is GOD.

The funniest part of the whole thing is that BECAUSE of my bigass SUV and what I do with it as far as carpooling and hauling save the local park, state park and national park stuff as a volunteer with my husband - because of the way I live in general - realizing I need to always look for any way I can to use frugally, choose carefully the first time, use reuse fix it repurpose and when all else fails figure out a way to somehow recycle. The fact is, I don't do these things because it's cool be all environmental. I do them because I come from generation after generation of poor people who think it's a crime to waste anything.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. "SHE has a Prius and Toyota is GOD"
I cannot begin to tell you how often that meme is repeated here. :hi:
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MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
38. Hear Hear... Your dead on...
It's all about reusing, recycling, living as inexpensively as possible, and being as self sufficient as possible. While I don't "haul" folks to/from work in my truck, I do haul materials to keep me employed and to keep my little corner of the world running with as little "environmental impact" as I can.

Its all about the "total" impact not the "point source" impact if that makes sense.

Keep it up.

Peace,
MZr7
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
27. If 'YOU' have a business and pull a trailer 'YOU' could have an SUV...........
and still have environmental values. Soccer moms and soccer dads have NF excuses!
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
29. in the grand scheme of things- why is a car any better than an suv, environmentally speaking?
walk, or ride a bike you made yourself from recycled materials...THEN you can be a pompous prick about what other people use for transportation and the harm it's doing to the environment.

sheesh... :eyes:
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. We are ALL pompous pricks at times....
Just ask anybody on the wacko right that disagrees with us! :hi:

I don't mind taking heat to make a point, even on DU. IMO --- it is IMO.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. so- from a planetary perspective, why is one suv worse than one car?
:shrug:
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amerikat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
30. did you know it takes 4000 gallons of oil to make a new car?
I have a 1992 Toyota 4runner. Bought it used. Gets me thru the snow
here in way upstate NY, I also drive a 1992 subaru which I drive
most of the time because it gets better mileage. But the toyota is
necessary for the snow and to haul around my tools.

I try to be energy use aware. I use all cf light bulbs grow some of my
own food, compost and recycle everything possible. My home thermostat is
set at 62 degrees.

I have also worked in the solar field for many years and have helped in
producing many mega watts of clean energy.

So in a nut shell....I'll keep the suv until it dies of old age, rather than
spend 4000 gallons of oil to make a more fuel efficient car that I can't
afford to buy anyway.

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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. I've never bought a new car...
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 09:36 PM by RiverStone
But I appreciate the stats you share on buying NEW. Valid points.

Said upthread, drive a 91 Honda CRX w/240K on it.
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WillieW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
31. Especially with a "Vote Obama" bumper sticker.
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WillieW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
32. duplicate - self deleted
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 09:28 PM by WillieW
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Citizen Number 9 Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
33. Of course you can.
I produce more than my share so I get to consume more.

It's like an aluminum smelter.

Their electricity usage is truly horrendous, many times what I use at home, but they produce aluminum for all of us to use, so it is okay.
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jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
35. Not really sure, but I know I CAN walk and chew gum! nt
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
37. Sure.
SUV's do not preclude green values. When I had my kids and her kids all under one roof, the SUV was almost a necessary item. Well, we could have gotten a van but the mileage was about the same and the SUV handled rugged terrain more happily, an important consideration to this family. What was the alternative? Taking two smaller cars to the same places all the time? Hard to save gas or emissions that way. Anyway, SUV or not we still contributed to Greenpeace, recycled, tried to conserve, and voted for the candidates we felt were best tuned into the issue. Hypocrisy you say? We live in an imperfect world, friend, and thus many choices are of necessity imperfect.

While I am sympathetic to your position, I caution against applying principles blindly to all situations. That can piss people off, just when they are ready to ally with you ...
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. Not entirely blind or applicable to all situations...
But a majority of em.

So many of us hold true to our passions and progressive values. Believe me, though my carbon footprint is small (or even in the minus), if you were to audit my lifestyle --- I would not get a perfect score. Drive a little ol Honda and live in a little house (by American standards) of 1000 Sq feet for me and 2 teenagers. But I have been known to forget my canvas bag for groceries -and OMG - used a bag from the store!!! Of course, it ends up lining my cats litter box. Alas, they don't recycle it....

Not perfect by any stretch.

But today I got really annoyed listening to a presenter from a leading environmental group, drive off in an SUV - by himself - and yes, with an Obama sticker on back. I did not take the time to flag him down and discuss circumstances. F'ing hypocrite I thought.

We can still an ally to the BIG cause and disagree, thankfully! :) Makes DU different from the freepers.
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #45
72. I hear what you are saying
I guess I am getting a little hypersensitive to some of the negative crap flying around these parts these days. We seem to eager to be critical of each other, and I guess I was reading you from that context. Sorry 'bout that.

I guess it is just normal. We've been living under the regime of tyrants who, I am now certain, took every opportunity to better their economic class at the expense of the nation. Now, they are leaving their places of power. We want things to change, and have wanted it for so long and so hard that we are all impatient, and perhaps spend overmuch time analyzing things like cabinet choices.

And then there was Prop 8, a hard smack to the face of anyone who advocates the extension of human rights to all. And most of us around these parts want that extension, want our gay brothers and sisters to be "part of" the full social compact in all respects.

My feeling, though, is that we have been driven as a people into a pit so deep it will take time and much effort to escape it. This is no time for us to become divided. Somehow, we have to restructure our economy, re-tool our technology (especially in power production, transportation, and waste disposal) ... save the planet and better the lives of our people.

I think someone in the Obama camp has read "The Shock Doctrine". I keep hearing phrases like "don't let a crisis go to waste" ... the progressive application of a tactic first adopted by the Chicago Boys and the right wing. We can do this. We just gotta stand together.

Trav
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Thanks, plenty of hypersensitivity to go around
Appreciate the wise words Traveler.

This is no time for us to become divided.

And given that so many of us are desperate for change, change from the most criminal regime in US history - I think there is a lot of less patient folks bantering about their opinions (myself included). I want the world to be a better place ASAP, and may we never see the likes of Shrub and Shooter in power again.

Sometimes, it is hard to see compromise. I don't see a compromised position, for example, with global warming. Ya either believe that it is real or ya believe that it is not. Same with Prop 8 - what kind of BS denies another human a basic right to celebrate a loving relationship?

In my view, most folks that drive (not all) an SUV make a choice. Just talking about walking one's talk. Though I will admit any post (like my OP) which makes a point in a critical way is not very unifying - even if it has merit.

I was in a bad mood yesterday and somewhere up thread I mentioned a lunch presentation I was at by a leading environmental group who's speaker drove off in a huge SUV by himself. Pissed me off.

Between here and our new president, I'll work to keep the focus more positive. Glad we are on the same team! :pals:
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
44. This is the kind of horseshit question that makes all liberals look bad.
RiverStone, I hope your only article of clothing is a robe made from pine needles woven together by hand and you live in an unlighted, unheated cave, subsist on raw seeds and dirt, and asked your one civilized friend to type this stupid-ass question on his/her computer for you. Because if you don't then you are the biggest fucking hypocrite of all.

You do realize that simply by existing you are exhaling enough carbon dioxide to tip the balance of the planet's ecosystems over the edge, don't you. Perhaps you should rethink your existence instead of worrying about calling people you do not know hypocrites.



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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Do you how many questions us "liberals" ask that others say this about?
Damn good thing we don't give a shit WHO thinks our questions are horseshit, out of fear of asking them.

Also it fucking rocks that we do not walk in lockstep like the freepers - one BIG BLUE tent here, feel free to disagree - please. :)

Don't want to stray too far off topic, but do you how many folks said this about Dennis Kucinich (my first choice before switching to Obama when he dropped out). Don't make the liberals look bad!

I doubt one question makes liberal look good or bad, we are far, far too much a rainbow to be defined so narrowly.



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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #46
66. You are accusing good people of being hypocrites because of the vehicle they drive without
knowing another thing about them. That is stupidity in the extreme.

Nobody is talking about asking questions. I'm talking about calling other people hypocrites because they don't follow your narrow little worldview or adopt your standard for environmentally-responsible living.

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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #66
76. Where do you draw the line on compromise?
I'm old enough to remember the active days of Earth First, though now I can say that many monkey wrenching tactics (i.e. destroying property to stop development) is not the best way. The motto was anything in defense of mother earth.

There was no ambiguity. No compromise. If it was bad for the earth, EF worked to stop it. And as a young man, I also believed anything in defense of Mother Earth too!!! I know now that the fight is just as important, but using destructive methods is not good karma.

Just as on many issues we feel dear about on DU: reproductive freedom, Gitmo, civil rights (Prop 8), global warming, ending the damn war, and that Shrub and Shooter are criminals --- I see little room to compromise. There is a right and a wrong view!

So where does the line begin or end with environmentally responsible living? That's open for debate. Personally, unless one has to drive a gas guzzling SUV - I don't see how to rationalize it away. No matter how much one recycles, an SUV is still an SUV. Funny how people can rob Peter to pay Paul. I have solar panels, therefore I can drive an SUV mentality.

All of us, myself included, can strive to make better choices. Gets back to compromise.

My mistake here was posting an OP in such a way that was critical (or insulting) vs inviting a discussion. Call it being tired and pissed off last night. I've been around DU long enough to know that being critical from the get go wins few recs, regardless of the merit of what I'm saying. My bad there.


peace~ :)


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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. I agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph. And believe me, I get as angry and frustrated
as you do about these things. There are many of us who are trying to be good stewards, but we can't do everything we want to do for many reasons. I'm glad that you recognize that.

We have a long struggle ahead of us and we need to be as united in this as we can.

Peace to you as well.


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City of Mills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
48. I drive an SUV and I'd bet I use far less gas than you.
Wanna talk about it?
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. I drive a monster. I just barely ever drive.
I ride a bike far more than I drive.

And if there were fewer cars on the road, I would put a trailer behind my bike, and almost everything I do would be by bike.

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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
52. It's a Hybrid, It's Union Made in the USA, and It's the Most Fuel-Efficient American-Made Vehicle

Ford Escape Hybrid
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. The Ford Escape Hybrid is a decent vehicle
The best in its class.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #54
81. It is Actually Cleaner-Running and More Fuel-Efficient than Any American CAR, Too
The Ford Escape hybrid not only beats all the other SUVs in fuel economy and emissions, it also beats every CAR made by the big 3 in the US.

Good for the Escape Hybrid, but pretty disgraceful for all those cars.
An SUV is more truck than car. It has they aerodynamics of a brick.
What kind of mileage could they get by putting that hybrid powerplant in a car?

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all.of.me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #54
88. I have one. It's awesome. See post #86.
I'd rather have had a Toyota, which I have been driving exclusively since 1976, but the Highlander got only 27 mpg and cost about $13,000 more. I bought my Escape used with 775 miles on it for $27,000 in the spring. I have good car karma. ;)
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. If I could afford a new car that is what it would be
But alas I can't so I will keep my 2004 Taurus.

It gets me where I am going.

Don
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. My Dad has it in his head that I need one of those when the wagon quits.
I'd rather somebody dropped a hybrid plant into a wagon body, but nobody asks me these things.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #57
82. They Should Have That Powerplant available in most of their line by now
Edited on Sat Dec-06-08 06:11 PM by AndyTiedye
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. I still want to know why there's no hybrid minivan on the US market.
Think of the number of families and businesses who need the room but could really use the greater efficiency! The lousy thing is that Toyota's had two hybrid minivans in Japan for years, and I don't know that they have any interest in selling either stateside. Somebody really should sell one. I'd buy one in a heartbeat, if I could.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
58. If there's an average carbon footprint, you'd need to balance out the difference between
your SUV affected carbon foot print and the average carbon footprint by reducing your other impacts in ways that people in this thread ignore because they don't drive SUVs.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
59. Yeah, people are all sorts of hypocrites. As long as they're making some kind of effort...
I'll cut them some slack. My parents drive a big stupid SUV that they don't need but they also have solar panels on their house. I think that anyone who eats meat can't claim absolute green cred or call hypocrisy on anyone else. None of us are totally pure but we do the best we can. It's awfully fun to make fun of SUV drivers though. :evilgrin:
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
60. Same rules for pick up trucks and high performance cars?
They certainly don't get better mileage than a SUV. Some get worse.

How come they get a pass and aren't included in the question?

Don

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CRF450 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #60
90. Um thats a load of bullshit
I own a midsize truck, Dodge Dakota 4x4, 4.7 235hp v8 and a 4 door crew cab. My other ride is an 01 Trans Am WS6 with a 6 speed manual. The truck usually gets 16mpg. The T/A has a 5.7 350hp v8, it gets much much better fuel milage than the truck. Gets me around 22-23mpg in the same driving conditions as the truck. The car is much lighter and aerodynamic, and when your not using all that power, they can get pretty decent fuel milage, the best mine got was 31mpg on the interstate. My truck will only get a little bit more than 20mpg on that same trip. This aint the 60's anymore, high performance sports cars such as the Corvettes with 6.2L v8's rated more than 400hp easily get 30mpg HWY. V8 powered hotrods then were lucky to get 18mpg on the HWY.

Weight and bad aerodynamics kills the fuel milage, if that same engine in my truck was put in a car weighing at 3500lbs, it will easily get around the same fuel milage as my car and most v6 powered cars.
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
61. I drive a 13 year old SUV, which I initially used in TX, and keep low mileage on it.
So, this doesn't mean I don't have environmental values. It means that out of the 2 cars, this one is the very low mileage one. I take care of it, and don't have the means to trade it for a new one.

Case closed.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
62. Yes.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
63. Yes.
It's not an SUV but a 1998 Ford F150 and I can't afford to buy a newer vehicle at the moment. My last vehicle was a 1972 VW bug and I drove it for 23 years. Now, if you want to buy me a shiny new Prius, I wouldn't turn it down.

Having said that, here:

I've been recycling since 1994.
My recycle-to-trash ratio is 2:1.
I make almost all of my food from scratch (no prepackaged foods)
I buy in bulk
I buy rice and flour in a cloth bag.
I use cloth bags when I go shopping.
I ride my bike when the air quality allows.
I've ridden the bus for many years.
I have a garden and grow much of my own food.
I buy local produce.
I can my own food which means I reuse the same jars year after year.
I shop at thrift stores.
I have 3 compost bins in which my kitchen waste goes and the end result goes into my garden.
I sponsor a neighborhood plant swap twice a year.

Is that GREEEEEENNNNN enough for you, there Sparky? I'm sorry, but making a quick judgment of someone JUST because of the vehicle they drive is one-dimensional thinking.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
65. Yes
If it is run on hydrogen, PHEV or non-agricultural ethanol.
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taterguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
67. Anyone that doesn't make the same choices I make is a hypocritical douchebag
Sure, being a vegan is good for the Earth, but I really enjoy the taste of meat.

Electricity from coal is bad, but I don't run the power company and I have too much fun with my Xbox.

OTOH, don't even think about using an internal combustion engine for transportation.

Unless you feel like going to the beach.

Or the mountains.

Or that really cool barbeque joint the next town over. The one with the styrofoam plates.

:eyes:
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HooptieWagon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
69. "Can you drive an SUV and have environmental values?"
Absolutely. If you need an SUV for the ground clearance (live on a dirt road), for the 4 wheel drive (live in the mountains), or for the power (pull a large trailer), then an SUV is almost the only option. If you live in suburbia, and drive an SUV as a fashion statement- as most owners - then of course you don't need it.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
73. Can you be a rapist and have feminist values? nt
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
75. Yes, if it's biodiesel.
Edited on Sat Dec-06-08 01:00 PM by Cleita
Willy Nelson and Melissa Etheridges tour buses are all run on biodiesel. That being said, not that many people need to drive SUVs or large pickup trucks or vans unless they are in business or live on a ranch. That's the easy part. The hard part will be to get the government to implement the availability of producing and distributing biodiesel nation wide so that you can drive to get your car filled with it as conveniently as you get gas.

http://www.biodieselresource.com/celebrities
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marlakay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
77. You do what you can
I have a 2001 Lexus rx 300 fully paid for which I drive in the winter in the mountains where I live with snow tires. I bought it used in 2004.

Yes i could have a smaller car with snow tires but this one is paid off and my husband is out of work. and my hours got cut at my job.

for my 50th b'day 2 1/2 yrs ago when i was complaining about my suv and not being green enough he bought me a Honda scooter 49cc so you can't go on freeway or need a motorcycle lic. And it gets 100 mpg.

I ride that from spring to fall when it gets cold. and only take the suv over the pass when we have to carry large amounts.

we have one smaller car a 1988 bmw convertable which we drive also. (this wasn't my choice, i sent my husband years ago to get new commuter car and he came home with that one and thought i would be happy!?)

So I ride as little as i can with large car, as much as I can with scooter and walk. I recycle and use canvas bags (even at malls and regular stores now) like i said, you do what you can.

When my cars give out I will look around then and buy more eco friendly. But you can't expect people in these hard economic times to buy a new car just to be p/c.

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carlyhippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
80. yes we can have environmental values
I drive a new SUV, bought it when gas was nearly 4.00 a gallon...why did I? Right now it's below zero with 3 foot of snow outside, try and drive a Prius thru those snow drifts with 3 kids and a big husband. I also bought it for safety, there are just too many icy roads here for 4 months out of the year. Why not a hybrid? I couldn't afford the extra 5,000 it would have cost me vs. a non-hybrid, in 6 years hopefully the auto industry will have green vehicles and I can buy a new green SUV then. Oh yeah, I am willing to bet you I drive less miles a week than you do. So who is better environmentally....someone in a big SUV who drives 20 miles a week total, vs. someone in a fuel efficient car who commutes 20 miles one way to work and back 5 days a week?

Now back to the environmental values.....I have done everything I can to help the environment, planted trees, gardening, composting, carry my own green bags to the store, conserve electricity, etc etc etc. I feel very comfortable with my environmental values, Thank you.
Carly
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nini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
83. depends
Edited on Sat Dec-06-08 06:14 PM by nini
if you're single and drive a hummer in a city - fuck no.

If you live out in an area where you need the power and 4 wheel drive etc.. then that's what you need - no complaint from me.

If people NEED those cars then so be it. It's a yuppish dipshit that lives in Bel Air who has to drive a hummer because he has a tiny dick that is the problem with SUVs.

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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
84. A solid 4x4 is a must
for a wetlands ecologist. I drive one fairly frequently. However, I do check out a Prius for office meetings.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
91. HELL YES! nt
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
92. Yes, if you use that for work tool transport, and some do require that much cargo
or to transport a whole group of folks back and forth from work, sure

At that point you'd be burning less fuel than if everybody drove priuses to work

Of course there are the folks who drive in rural areas of the country where you do NEED a 4x4 and your prius would not be able to get anywhere with deep snow.


I hate broad brushes
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
93. Yep, a Trailblazer....
..and I'm sticking to it :p
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
94. My best friend does
She has an SUV and drives to work every day even though she could easily metro. But she has been trying to be more environmentally conscious in other ways, like bringing a coffee mug to work and washing it out every day instead of using the paper cups they have in the kitchen. So she's not as environmentally conscious as she could be, but I am glad she is making an effort to be more environmentally conscious.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
95. Obama does
But to be fair, he has a Ford Escape hybrid. Probably the most politically correct car he could possibly buy...union-made and hybrid.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
96. I used to have an SUV, and have environmental values
I needed a car, and managed to get a free Grand Cherokee from a family member. It had 140k on it when I got it, and I kept it until 165k.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 04:39 AM
Response to Original message
98. If that's the appropriate vehicle for what they are doing
if you need high clearance, 4 wheel drive and a covered cargo area, then you need an SUV.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
99. yes
all those that live in der wilderness
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
100. Well, I think Neil Young has a Hummer that runs on propane. n/t
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