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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:49 PM
Original message
Frontpage of today's Detroit Free Press ... WOW!
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's the way to do it. Shove it right down their throats.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Yep
K & R
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
75. Agreed. n/t
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. the so-called 'big 3' never invested in America, or at least not in the later years
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 01:59 PM by ixion
so why should we invest in them now that they're insolvent? I would rather allow new, truly innovative companies to take their place. The big 3 are, in large part, responsible for this mess for making crappy products for the last 35 years or more. They've stifled competition and ruthlessly subverted patents that threatened their stranglehold, but now they want us to save them.

Nope. No thanks.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. of course not... people out of work is bad, however
propping up an insolvent company that is no longer viable is not the solution.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Schools next?
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 04:39 PM by Billy Burnett
Why should we invest in troubled institutions at all? Right?

:puke:


Instead, lets fix them. My 2 cents.


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aviationpm Donating Member (50 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
231. Schools are not for profit like these companies.
And they lack the CEOs that make tens of millions of dollars to drive the institutions into the ground.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
59. Just being stupid.
These companies are responsible for tons of retirees.What do you do with them?Tell them to go back to work?Oh yeah there are no jobs.
The car companies may have been struggling but before the banks went tits up they were ok.It's safe to think they will thrive again someday.
How you people think you can replace millions of excellent paying jobs is beyond me.Entire cities would go bankrupt,states would go bankrupt.Have you ever seen a city after a major employer leaves?
Bailout the Big three,enact the FDIC program,get money to the states and we may slow down this horrible mess.let the big three fail along with foreclosures and we'll never recover.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #59
108. you seem to think throwing money at the problem will make it better
it will not. It does, in fact, make it worse. We're already broke. We don't have the money to give these companies. Every time we borrow or print more to give them...er, 'loan' to them, we dig the hole a bit deeper.

We've saddled generations to come with more debt than they can ever pay off. We should be so proud. :eyes:

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #108
113. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #108
190. I am not sure withholding money is a better solution
there simply are no good solutions.

I'd be more inclined to buy the companies outright than feed then 32 Billion, however--even if that means feeding them money after the original purchase. At least there is control that way and an investment--sort of like what was done to make Conrail.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #190
204. I'll tell you a little secret. either way, we're all going to pay.
If 4 million more jobs are lost. You'll pay when those people go on the government dole. You'll pay when the value of your home goes down even more that it has already with up to 4 million more foreclosures. You'll pay when you go to the Dr. because prices will be raised to make up for 4 million more people not having health insurance. You'll pay more when you go to Burger King or Wendy's or even a mom and pop restaurant because you'll be driving further and longer to get to one that manages to stay in business. Yes, by all means let them go under. One way or the other, you'll pay.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #204
212. Very true and worthy of it's own thread. It'll hit locally, too--
love 'em or hate 'em, car sales people make a damn good living--but they won't if they have nothing to sell.

Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Suburu are NOT going to have openings for them in an already crappy, depressed marketing, esp. with a credit crunch.
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du_grad Donating Member (122 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #204
261. You're right
The people on this thread that say let them go under obviously don't live in Ohio or Michigan. Detroit proper is already a shadow of its former self. It will become an even worse hell hole. Toledo and Cleveland, especially the former, is already hurting. This will affect all of us, even though we don't work in the auto factories. I work in health care. The hospitals won't have paying customers. There will be thousands more people without health insurance and/or places to live. The hospitals will not be able to support this many people without insurance. The ER waiting times will be days instead of hours. Our city, whose roads are already a shambles, will have nothing but gravel and pot holes for years to come, as there will be no tax money to pay for repairs.

Please don't be so smug and think that the demise of the auto industry will not affect you. Its runoff extends to approximately 500,000 jobs in this country, including stores, restaurants, dealerships, parts suppliers, mechanics, etc. etc.

I grew up hearing the horror stories of the Depression in this area from my mother, and never thought I might live to see it happen again.

This article is quite enlightening:

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/19010
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #108
205. really thats what they said with Chrysler bailout and the Mexican bailout
in both cases federal action stopped bad situations from getting worse and in both cases it ended up not costing the taxpayers a single penny.

The argument you make is the same that Hoover and FDR made at the begining of the depression. FDR ran on a balanced budget. Things finally collapsed altogether and they had no choice. Deficit spending during the war led to the greatest increase in prosperity in world history, not just in the US but around the world as the Marhsall Plan structured a European recovery.

We can never get out of this hole by restricting expenditures. It is a mathematical impossibility.


There is only one option; grow the economy - initially with massive deficit spending to replace the collapsing private consumption with public spending. The other part is that we have to hold on to manufacturing jobs and increase productivity. With higher paying jobs and increases in productivity the pie gets bigger and the debt in relation to the whole pie is reduced. With increases in productivity use some of that increase to pay off the debt - exactly what happened during the Clinton Administration.
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dglow Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #108
229. The way out of debt
While you have a legitimate point, the only way to get out of the mess is to save the jobs we have and create more jobs. I like Michael Moore's proposal. He thinks the Feds should just purchase GM for the $3 billion asking price/value, fire the current management team, and reformat the industry to produce the transportation of the 21st century -- rail, light rail, and alternative energy cars.

Economists like Ravi Batra believes most economists have it all wrong. To regrow a healthy middle class and thus create the capital to get out of debt, America must produce goods and give workers ownership in the company. We must protect and reclaim our manufacturing base.

Killing domestic auto production isn't the answer.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
86. Oh, ok, destroy the company, who cares about the workers
The workers ARE the company genius.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #86
109. and the company is going to fail
so the workers will find work elsewhere. That's the way it is. I've never felt that any position I had was guaranteed. That concept is foreign to me.
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Diana Prince Donating Member (267 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #109
118. Please tell me where they will find work elswhere.
Do you think there are going to be other jobs available? Do you think someone who is unemployed can relocate to look for other work? NO! If the Big 3 fail I don't think we will recover for a very long time. The small job shops are the only manufacturing we have left in this country. It is not just the auto companies that will be hurt.

Let them find work elsewhere: that is going to be the new mantra for the repugs.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #118
119. please show me where we're guaranteed a job in the constitution,
Bill of Rights, or even the congressional record. There is NO such guarantee. I know that sounds harsh, but that's the way it is.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #119
126. You definitely on the wrong
forum.You are using lines from the republican platform.It's not guaranteed right,but in the country I want to live in,if you have the will to work you should be able to work,and to make a living wage while working that job.We as Americans don't throw retiree's out on the street, we don't throw people out of work because someone has wronged us in the past.Last but not least after 8 years of stupidity we don't do anything stupid like throwing a million people out of work.Even the republicans came around after they saw the jobs report,why is it that you are even stodgier then they are?I guess you're just a jerk.
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #126
181. Libertarian
Law of the jungle
Every man/woman for him/herself

Can't afford fire protection? Too bad, so sad
Can't afford police protection? Too bad, so sad
Child labor? Free market!!
Millions of workers and retirees dumped into the street? Free market!!


I've always found them to be the biggest crybabies when they don't get their piece of the pie, however.



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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #181
260. So true, so true...
"I've always found them to be the biggest crybabies when they don't get their piece of the pie, however."

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #126
194. Then find them another job, don't support making a product that
is not selling or is not selling for enough to make it.

For that matter, put them on welfare until something else comes up. But there is no right to a specific job to make a specific thing! It has to sell.

Reality will always clobber us eventually.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #194
218. There are no jobs
You're not being realistic.There also is no welfare.In normal times most could find other work,these are not normal times.The effect of losing that many jobs in this economy would be cities and states going broke.property taxes would soar.Health care systems would go bankrupt from all the retirees no longer having insurance.There is no way to compensate for that many people losing jobs at the same time.
The car company's would be selling cars if the banks were loaning money.Japanese car makers aren't doing any better.So I guess using your logic just don't make cars.Japan props up their car companies and they don't have health care to worry about you take away that expense and the auto companies would be doing fine.
Try to think the situation over before making your decision about millions of peoples lives.
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nankerphelge Donating Member (995 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #218
234. Maybe every single person doesn't need to have their own car...
Employ these people in companies focused on public transportation. The sky is not falling if these companies go away. Protect the workers and retirees, yes. Continue throwing money at poorly run companies that have fought to maintain the status quo.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #234
256. That is taking reality into account
Always a good thing.

They sell things at a sustainable price or go out of business. That is capitalism.

They must sell smaller cars that more people can afford.
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du_grad Donating Member (122 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #234
262. In case you haven't noticed...
Most medium sized cities do not have public transportation that will take them anywhere they need to go easily. Our cities are built for the automobile - not bus transportation. It would take me hours to take care of my errands if I had to use public transportation where I live. The buses don't even run to some of the suburbs, as they've opted out of the system because there is no ridership. Just getting to my grocery store and back (a 5 minute drive) would entail walking about four blocks to get to the bus stop. The buses only run about 30-45 minutes apart during the day. I'd have to take some sort of cart with me. Then I'd have to wait another 30-45 minutes to get back if I just missed a connection. Then I would have to cart all of those groceries the 4 blocks home. I'd have to do this at least twice a week, if not more, as I couldn't carry everything I needed for a week in a cart. In winter weather they don't even shovel the sidewalks and the snow from the plows covers them until the spring thaw. If you don't have a car you are completely isolated.

We are decades away from having public transportation again for the masses in medium to small cities. You need to live in big coastal cities in order to be able to get rid of your car.

BTW, what companies focus on public transportation? I don't know of any in the NW Ohio/SE Michigan area. Where do you propose the thousands of people who work in this geographic location for the big 3 go to live and work? How are they going to sell their homes right now? Where are there jobs?

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081...

Here's what's going on in our neck of the woods...
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #119
138. You can argue that it IS guaranteed in the Constition.
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, ensure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Promoting the general welfare. It can be argued, and has been by minds much greater than mine, that this would mean a living wage for all, as well as access to health care. Our government hasnt been Promoting the General Welfare for quite some time.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #138
144. also in the bill of rights
libertarians have a hard time with nuances
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #119
142. who libertarian of you.
no common good for you is there..just the survival of the fittest.


wait a minute------- life-liberty-and the pursuit of happiness. is`t that in the bill of rights? i know that`s not the "constitution but it is the bill of rights. but maybe you think those rights do`t apply

gee.... i think people who have jobs are happy they can eat,take care of a family ,themselves,and contribute to the common good. sounds like that is include in the bill of rights

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #109
143. Sure they will, you keep believing that
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #109
152. There is no work 'elsewhere'. Aren't you paying any attention? We lost
1,250,000 jobs in the last three months.


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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #109
213. Where will the workers find work? What about workers in the dealerships?
When you post from outside Fantasyland, let us know.
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. how about employ them to tear down the hummer factory
and build a new one that makes things we need
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #14
88. Hummer makes about 60,000 a year, why not tear down the Toyota Tundra
factory, Toyota Land Cruiser factory, Nissan Titan factory, and Mercedes Benx SUV factories too???


Stupid answers from stoopid people.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #5
111. allow me to remind you
of the DU rule against calling someone a freeper. I'll ask you kindly not to do it again.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #111
214. Comparing your phrases to those used byy the wrong side isn't calling you a freeper.
But it is showing that your thoughts aren't exactly original--or smart.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
139. It would be cheaper to pay 5 millin people their lost paychecks
by giving them jobs building the US infrastructure than shoveling it down a bottomless rat hole.
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I can't let you get away with that remark.

You say the industry has never invested in America? The automobile industry built America. What more do you want? An estimated one out of every ten American jobs are related to the auto industry. If that isn't an investment in America, please tell me what is?
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. No, they built themselves a oligopoly
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 03:05 PM by ixion
and tried to rig the field accordingly to maintain that an unfair grip on the market. They've not done me any favors.
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. I'm with you on this
It's not because I want to see everyone in the auto industry jobless, but that I believe the auto industry has behaved badly many a time. Rather than a long list of examples, I'll just point at the fairly recent decision to kill off electric vehicles. GM had made a car, the EV-1 which ran on batteries and gave a limited number of them to consumers to try out on a lease arrangement. Those who had them mostly loved them and went around saying how great they were. But not only did GM decide that they didn't fit with their strategy, they repossessed almost all EV-1s and refused to allow people to buy out their leases. Having created an innovative product, and then created demand for that product among consumers, they promptly turned around and took them off the road, going so far as to destroy almost all of them.

I appreciate that there were business reasons why GM felt the car wouldn't be profitable and didn't want to shoulder the various legal obligations and consumer expectations that they had created. But instead of looking for a way to maximize public benefit while still considering their own liability and competitiveness (which is a reasonable desire of any business) they deliberately destroyed value and reduced consumer choice.

To my mind, it won't be a bad thing if one or all three of the automakers go bankrupt. Going bankrupt does not mean going out o business, but reorganizing their corporate and financial structures. When a company goes bankrupt it's not like they send in people to smash up the machinery so it can't be used any more. Many companies continue operating while they go through bankruptcy, reorganize themselves and their business model, and emerge as more competitive businesses. The big 3 are trying to avoid bankruptcy because they figure they'll get more favorable terms from Congress than they will from their creditors, and will thus have to put in less effort.

It's not that I'm opposed to giving them money under any circumstances. What's annoying me is the lack of vision from the auto companies. They keep saying they need the money so badly, I get that. What I'm not hearing is the brand new business model which they so obviously need.
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DUlover2909 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #23
83. They could just copy Honda, Lexus, and Toyota couldn't they?
Isn't that how it works? Look at what people want and provide it? Our country makes the best of the best when it comes to fighter planes, aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines, WMD, etc. Why the hell can't we make cars people want to drive and at the same time make them affordable and fuel efficient?
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #83
131. Toyota, Honda, etc. don't make cars people want to drive that
are affordable and fuel efficient.

The Prius is expensive (and, to a great number of people ugly - I wouldn't want to drive it).
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #131
150. Ha! That's wrong. Those are the cars people DO want to drive.
Unless you're counting John McCain's base, the elderly, who still favor American autos.

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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #150
220. I was in the Hill Country Thanksgiving...
weekend. I was at a convenient store in Mason, when a white Prius drove up. The drive was a 70+ year old woman, and the passenger appeared to be her husband. Surprised the hell out of me.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #220
223. A good third of the elderly or more aren't McCain supporters, thankfully.
The Prius is too small for my tastes, but fine for some. If one really wishes to be environmentally sensitive, the key is to stop driving so damn much, and to drive at reasonable speeds, without jack rabbit starts and stops.

Some folks think that owning a car that gets 35-40 mpg is a license to drive solo 500 miles a week, to engage in poor driving habits, and to generally behave as if they're not part of the problem because of their car choice. The person driving an SUV 100 miles a week is still using less fuel, creating less demand. And if that SUV person is moving 4-5 people around that 100 miles, the SUV driver and his or her passengers are using far, far less fuel per person than one person in a Prius.

Cutting out unnecessary trips, planning well before putting the car in gear, and simply not driving for amusement or boredom are all good ways to limit fuel consumption. I see smaller car drivers all the time who take off too fast and slow down by braking rapidly, both of which are terrible for fuel consumption.
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VPStoltz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #131
171. So why is Toyota the biggest selling car in the U.S.? World-wide perhaps?
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Barb in Atl Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #171
246. Honestly? Because it's the conventional wisdom
I don't think Toyota, Honda, Kia, Hyundai are better vehicles than a ford or a chrysler or even a chevy. I think it's just become conventional wisdom based off a period back in the frickin' 70's when U.S. cars were crap. Since that time, and japanese cars flooded the market way cheaper, and european cars were always status symbols, and the increasing attacks on the labor unions - cars from the big 3 just lost their edge.

I had my ford escort for 11 years - and would still if my niece, who told me she could drive a stick, hadn't thrown a rod in my engine.

My Subaru blew up in under two years (yeah, sure, it was my first car and I didn't know how to maintain it, but that's not the point).
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mantis49 Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #131
185. So why are there waiting lists for the Prius? n/t
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #131
263. i drive a honda, so do 5 of my friends of the top of my head
3 toyotas, a saturn, my parents do have 2 fords. And speaking from experience Honda drivers buy 2nd and 3rd Hondas.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
90. "I appreciate that there were business reasons why GM felt the car wouldn't be profitable "
Edited on Sat Dec-06-08 04:32 AM by DainBramaged
Then why are you bashing GM if you agree with their decision? And it won't be a bad thing if one or more of them go bankrupt? I guess your job is not automotive related. Put US out of work and BUST the UAW, which is what this is all about in spite of your ignorance, but you'll still be OK? Typical DU attitude. Oh and how did you REALLY feel about the decision to give TRILLIONS to the banks without strings?

Too much stoopid is spilling onto the pages of DU lately.
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revolve Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. Wow, that is a very selfish outlook
"They've not done me any favors." So let them fail.

I personally know many, many people they have done favors for.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. that's great... let them bail them out
my perception of them is much different.
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revolve Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. Okay, since the auto industry in responsible for aproximately 1 in 10 jobs
We can just use a tenth of what the banks got.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #41
157. Surely you know 1000 people. Can you name 100 who work in the auto industry?
1 in 10 is an absurd number, without any rational basis.
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #157
200. Out of a 1000 people I know...
the nearest auto-manufacturing plant that I know of being in Ohio, over 500 miles away. (I live in CT.):

337 of those jobs are directly-dependent upon the auto industry. Not in the industry, it's 1 in 10 jobs is directly dependent (in part or full) upon the auto industry.

Of course, my number is higher because than most because my mother's the VP of one of the largest suppliers of specialty fasteners to the auto industry. (comprising about 10% of their orders, second only to military accounts.) The auto industry isn't the only customers they have (and they sell to everybody in the field including Honda, Toyota and Nissan) but that business keeps the machines running.

That's just the start of it, knowing those orders are coming in monthly keeps other prices to customers down...lose the Big-3 and double or more the price per 1,000 of the screws used to build:

*Consumer electronics like TVs, stereos and the always-popular Wii.
*Transformers, generators and other equipment used by your power company to supply power to your house
*Equipment to supply water to your house
*Pratt and Whitney and GE engines on your Boeing and Lockheed jets.
*The trucks, trains, refrigerated trailers and boxcars, etc. used to transport virtually everything.
*Apple, HP, Asus, Acer (or 50 other manufacturers) of office computing equipment.
*...

(Note: due to patents, they are the only manufacturers of most of these fastener products. If the decided that the cost of the 68 (hypothetical number) screws in your MacBook were to jump from $0.50 each to $5, you'd see it directly in the price. Now think about how many screws are in the refrigeration unit that got your dinner from the slaughterhouse to the supermarket.)

That doesn't factor that more than 50% of her customers are military and you pay for those fasteners directly and indirectly through the DoD (and they'll be getting more expensive too).

Lose those accounts for fasteners, the resultant cost increase of the supplies for your job will probably make your job disappear. You're not represented in that 1 in 10 because you're indirectly-dependent upon the auto industry. You're directly-dependent on other customers of my mother's employer. They're dependent on her and she's dependent on Detroit.

Lose those accounts and the cost of maintaining your quality of life is going to go up...a lot, even if you've never bought a domestic car or lived within 2000 miles of Detroit.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #200
203. I've owned many, many American made cars, which is why I know they're inferior.
Edited on Sat Dec-06-08 02:43 PM by TexasObserver
And in spite of your feeble attempt, there are nowhere near 10% of America's jobs connected to the American auto industry. Maybe 1%, if that.
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Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #203
216. Seeya in the bread line.
People have data to back the 10% figure, you've got none to back your 1% assertion. (That's usually a good indicator that you're wrong.)

I did note that you didn't even try to challenge the premise of my post...that this has reverberations beyond the obvious. I think you're bitter that you threw a challenge down for someone to try to prove the 10% figure (thinking it could not be done) and I...um...jacked it out of the park like a David Ortiz bomb onto Lansdowne St. :woohoo:

I do like the fact you came back to the canard about domestic automakers making inferior cars since it's irrelevent. I never said they didn't make shitty cars and I don't particularly care that they make cars...they could make rickshaws, boats, trains, bicycles or tennis shoes for all I care, if you put those people out of work, the economy is going to take a hit...and the people who are going to take the plunge into unemployment with it is the middle and lower classes.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #216
222. No, you'll be there without me.
You're one of the many here who don't know a blessed thing about economics or the reason why companies like GM fail. And I'm not interested trying to educate you.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
89. OH and the transplants in the Southern tier right to work states have?
Gee you sound just like Senator Shelby, who waked away when confronted about the half a BILLION dollars in giveaways to Mercedes Benz to get their factory to build in Alabama.
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
82. The automobile industry built America?
:rofl:
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #82
245. You laugh, but tell me what's so far fetched about that notion?
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Seldona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #245
257. What was the best selling model of car in 1776?
Gives a whole new meaning to the term HORSEpower.
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #257
264. Great point!
If they didn't have it in 1776 then in no way could it affect today. The country we know today was built on gold and tobacco. Call me when the fur trade starts to tank, that's when I'll start worrying. Do you think about all issues in this context? Healthcare? Suffrage must totally suck to you. These horseless carriages are destroying the America of your youth with their flummoxing squalls and noxious vapours.

You must be kidding.

The America we know now is a direct result of the success of the auto industry. To deny that is to be ignorant.
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muntrv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #82
251. Uh yeah!! And WWII?
The auto industry in Detroit was the arsenal of democracy.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #82
255. (Insert jingoistic claim here)
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
148. No, not even close to ten percent of the jobs are tied to the American auto industry.
That's just a bullshit number someone pulled out of their ass, and some think it has meaning if repeated enough.
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #148
244. Ten percent is a conservative estimate. Some say close to fourteen percent.


You shouldn't speak of things you know nothing about. You may try reading, once in awhile. Then you would be more careful before you make a fool of yourself.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG AND WRONG.
They are invested in America. In American middle class, in extra holidays, high pay, and they still hold that line while nearly everything else falls away. Gone, are almost all manufacturing in this country.

They don't need to be insolvent, they can continue and adjust to this political/banking/shock-doctrine debacle.

The "innovative companies" have learned from our guys. And aside from the occasional hit car from abroad, our guys have come up with the good innovations that we wanted.

If those car/truck lines were not what was good for us under all economic conditions, what do you want? You want the other car makers from abroad to fill in and make the big money so that when gas prices make a quick rise you can say, hey look, our companies are making small cars, yippee, I think I'll drive down to the dealership in foreign SUV and think about buying one.

You can't get over your '75 Vega from 35 years ago so you'd rather go with a company with no track record.

Have they fought hard in business for patents and costs of patents. Yes, I hope they have. Do you think our business climate does anything else these days. These guys are in the middle of America's business morass.

If you want to stop businesses from having to resort to current business standards and have those standards more kindly, then, perhaps you'd better think of way of convincing Republicans to shut up, or start a civil war to kill them off. I don't suggest it though.

I gotta go.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
210. These people that think their livlihoods don't depend on Automakers
don't realize the reason they have a 40 hour work week and vacation time, sick pay, health care, holidays etc. Is because of people like the American auto worker, some who died fighting for those benefits. IMO, they are selfish individuals who are resentful or because they been brainwashed to believe what MSM has told them over the years.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Amen. If you look at how bad things are in Detroit now, that is the handiwork of the big 3
Detroiters should have run them out on a rail long ago.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
48. The auto companies are planning to let 20,000-30,000 workers go ...
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 05:56 PM by defendandprotect
despite bail out -- Do we want to subsidize that--!!??

Let US take over plants -- build ELECTRIC CARS --

SAVE THE PLANET -- NATIONALIZE OIL
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #48
91. Nationalize oil, from who, the Russians and Saudis?
We tried that in Ieaq, and how many of our children are dead and wounded and what did we get? We don't produce enough oil to Nationalize the industry, but nice try to inflame the others here who don't understand that.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #91
175. People in Iraq are dead because of LIES ...
Move to electric cars and stop importing oil --

NATIONALIZE OIL INDUSTRY and ALL NATURAL RESOURCES --

Why should any private family or corporation have control

of what's left?

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #175
227. You are just too funny. Defend and protect what?
I'll say it again, we don't HAVE enough oil to Nationalize. SO what's your next trick?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #227
252. Where's the Alaska oil going--?? Not to US -- Will be shipped out --!!
Edited on Sat Dec-06-08 10:36 PM by defendandprotect
If there's an IOTA left -- still NATIONALIZE all natural resources --


What's your argument for any natural resouce to be in private hands --????



I'm sure we all remember ...

Preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #252
265. Yes, where is it going, why don't you tell us, all wise sage.
:rofl:
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #252
266. OK, I KNOW you don't have the guts to respond, so I will for you
http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/alaskaoil.asp


Crude oil exports ENDED in 2000. Nice try buckko.


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #266
267. OIL- not crude -- still be shipped out ... US doesn't get it --
Why should any of this be in private hands -- ?

NATIONALIZE ALL NATURAL RESOURCES --

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-08 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #267
269. (sigh) nice try. BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ LOSER
Your screed is tiresome and just plain stupid.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. Never invested in American?
Are you serious? They are the companies most responsible for creating the large middle class in this country. Many people would be much worse off had their parents or grandparents or themselves not had a job with one of the US automakers. These companies allowed poor, uneducated people to get a job that paid a decent wage and allowed them to improve their lives and send their kids to college. I know today people think it's awful that the US automakers paid their employees well and provided for it's retirees but our country wouldn't have had such as large middle class without them.

Oh, and remember when the automakers produced all that military equipment during WW2? The idea that these companies have not done anything for our country is insane and wrong.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. Those Union Jobs are worth saving. And if they go, your job is next. nt
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. too late... the company I was working for failed in 2007... no bailout was offered
and no one gave a rat's ass that I'd lost my job.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. So what, you're jealous that hard working Union workers may get to keep their jobs?
FYI-If it wasn't for Unions, we'd all be making pennies an hour, have NO health care, bathroom breaks or any fucking rights at all.

I'm talking 3rd world working conditions. Is that what you want? Because that's what the bastards in power want to do to all of us-working class and white collar.

Reagan didn't call it a "service (aka servant) economy" for nothing. :puke:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Workers can keep their jobs if US buys plants -- build ELECTRIC CARS ---
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revolve Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. They would be layed off for a long time
While the cars were developed and the lines were converted to making the new product.

I agree that they should change their product but it cant be done overnight.

Also the largest selling personal vehicle of the year was A Ford F-150 just so you know.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. BS -- those cars are ready -- they were on the roads in late '90's in CA --
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 06:45 PM by defendandprotect
GM retook them -- thousands of them -- AND CRUSHED THEM---!!!

ELECTRIC CARS ARE HERE ---
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #49
134. oh no !!!!!! electric cars are here-----chevy volt
all it needs is a rather large supply of batterys. for every battery they put into a car there has to be so many set aside for replacement.
the batteries in electric car in the 90`s were crap. if they would have made that car then it would have been a disaster.


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #134
174. Right, Californians wanted to buy everyone of the Electric Cars ...
GM crushed them to protect consumers from themselves ...!!!

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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #174
182. Protect the profits for their Big Oil buddies is more like it
I would buy an EV1 (or EV2) if they offered one. I grew up with Fords-which were ALWAYS in the fucking shop! My Toyota is 14 years old and has barely ever required any work. Build a reliable, green vehicle that won't cost us an arm and a leg once it leaves the lot,and business will boom.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #182
198. Absolutely --
and think that we/government should subsidize mfg/purchase of GREEN cars

at start up --
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VPStoltz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #47
172. And therein lies the problems. Americans are so self-serving-righteous.
They/we are going to do what the f*&^ we want because we are Amerkins.
All that bitching about foreigners and their oil, but we just can't bring ourselves to get out of our ridiculously stupid vehicles.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #44
65. You can't build something
just because it's a nice thing to do.They are still going to make gas cars for sometime yet.You people are just as loony as the repukes.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #65
183. What's looney is to believe that it's at all sensible to keep building gas
powered cars when oil production has already peaked. Like it or not, the days of gasoline power are coming to an end.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #44
92. Prius production is only 7% of the total of cars and trucks Toyota builds
who will buy them? And where will the batteries come from??? You all make it sound so simple and easy. Have you looked at Cars.com lately just in YOUR zip code to see how many Prius are for sale USED?????

When the banks release the money they are hording, maybe America begins to recover. YOU convince a worker making less than $14 an hour to spend $25,000 on a new electric car.

NONE of you thinks this through before splattering the pages with dreck.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #42
57. not jealous, I just don't see the point
no one bails out tech workers, so I don't see why we should bail out auto workers.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #57
67. A tech worker can go
to any city in the world and get a job.Auto workers are auto workers.There is no comparison.It's apples and oranges.I don't know just because something bad happened to me once I don't wish it on others.
Did you ever hear of the greater good?
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #57
70. Tech workers? Pshaw.
That's sissy white collar service industry nonsense. REAL men work in dirty, noisy, dangerous factories. :P
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #42
221. Yep...
it only took 35 posts before the real truth behind his feelings came out.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #35
64. You seem to have lost alot of jobs
Or did the dot com bubble burst late for you?
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #64
77. start-ups come and go...and they fail often
I've worked for both...ones that failed and ones that succeeded. I've worked for two companies who went belly up. One in the dot com days, and one in 2k7.

but hey, thanks for the snide remark. ;)
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #77
116. Not a problem
keep posting and I'll keep making them.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #116
120. gee, that's productive
:eyes:
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #120
123. Just as productive as having a
logical argument with you.They are getting their money, by the way.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #123
178. so you got your wish...
and by doing so added to the debt will saddle future generations. You should be so proud. When the wheels come off, remember this day, and remember that you helped.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
76. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #76
110. you miss my point... it's not about me, but typical of most professions
there are no guarantees that your job will always be there. That's pretty much a given in the tech industry, and many others.

But hey, thanks for the insults. You don't know me from Adam, but you've made up your mind that I'm an SOB because I don't want to loan money we don't have to prop up companies that will fail anyway.

Awesome.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #76
117. A truer statment has
never been made sir!You rock.
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vanboggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #35
115. You don't understand
My niece's husband works for a tool and die company that services the auto industry. There goes his job. My cousin owns a research company employing a lot of workers. They design the prototypes for dies used in the auto industry. These are not UAW workers, but their jobs depend on the Big 3. Those industry supporting workers won't be able to buy groceries, get medical and dental care, buy clothing, go to restaurants - there go more jobs.

See how Raygun/Bush economics trickles down and on to the middle class? The bailout of the financial services industry was much larger and was a big ripoff. That I agree with. The auto industry bailout is a different animal.
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life long demo Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #35
177. I understand why you feel that way
My company moved to Mexico in 2004, I was 61. It was extremely hard finding a job then, plus my age working against me. I was out of work for 10 months. Finally found a job making $12./hr. I was making $52K/yr at my previous job. I understand. BUT, I feel for everyone who has lost their job, everyone who will lose they job. I am furious at the bailout given to AIG, et al, with no guidelines on what it was for, such as BONUSES, salary caps, etc. I'm more angry at that bailout than bailing out the auto industry. There are too many little guys who will lose their jobs if the auto companies went under. I care about that production worker. I don't give two sh$ts about the CEO, COB, EVP, or any of those other upper management lackeys. They should get pay cuts, no bonuses, etc. Finally, I'm now, or will be in 1 month, 66. I won't be able to retire for a long, long, long time. I must add that I hope God has a special place he will put Bush, his cronies, and every republican who supported Bush, I want it especially hot. But behind bars for now would be just fine with me.
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DonEBrook Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
31. Well, GM killed the trains and trolleys, Ford was a Nazi and a racist and Chrysler
has already been bailed out once. Color me unconcerned.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #31
50. GM also crushed THOUSANDS of electric cars in Calif --!!!
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 06:02 PM by defendandprotect
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DonEBrook Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. Yep, they sure did!
:grr:
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #50
84. Get over it already, and they are OLD OLD technology
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #84
114. I'm for saving the auto makers, certainly
But which is older, gasoline internal combustion, or the Electric technology that they did in fact pull from the market? Old tech is bad tech? Really? I knew people who begged, and even spent money on lawyers to try to keep their EV, they loved it, wanted it, and I wanted to buy one too. They were good cars, the time had come for them, the market was present and obviously so. Waiting lists, people wanting to pay up front for future delivery.
Killing that EV was a huge mistake. The Big Three have made many mistakes, and they are not in this position for nothing.
One does not have to pretend the comapnies have been perfect or even decent to want to save those jobs and that vital part of our national infrastructure. Ignoring past errors of judgment is not wise, learning from them is the right way.
Ending the EV program as they did is one of the big PR hurdles they face today, with hat in hand. All companies would do well to note that while at one moment in time a company may have the power to flip the bird to customer wants and needs, doing so may create ill will that in some future time may be detrimental to the comapny itself. Destroying the first product to re-attract fuel frugal Americans instead of selling that product was daft. And it made people think poorly of the Big Three management, and rightly so. More people saw the documentary film "Who Killed the Electric Car" than ever laid eyes on an actual EV. And GM would be in a better place today if the EV had been sold and was on the road now.
And one more thing. Many 'American cars' are built in other countries, non Union. There are 'Japanese' cars built right here by UAW workers. The UAW is my concern, not the Big Three so much. Buying Union is not automatic when buying Big Three autos, nor is it true that all Toyotas are non Union. So look for that Union lable, not the coroprate symbol.
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DonEBrook Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #84
159. Trains are old technology? Yep they sure as fuck are and still far more efficient than
anything invented since. Are you a reverse-neoLuddite?
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #84
230. Isn't GM already invested in trains?
in other countries that is...

http://www.rediff.com/money/2008/dec/01gm-to-make-india...

GM to make India Asia-Pacific hub for power-trains

December 01, 2008 14:42 IST

Unperturbed by the Mumbai terror attacks and its ongoing struggle to avoid bankruptcy back home, US auto major General Motors said on Monday it is making India power-trains development hub for Asia-Pacific region.

The company's Indian subsidiary General Motors India has already announced a total of $500 million investments in the country to set up new car and power-train manufacturing facilities and it will be hiring 500 people in the second-half of next year.
"With our engineering facility in Bangalore as the foundation of our business in India, we are making the country the development hub of power-trains for Asia-Pacific region," GMI president and managing director Karl Slym told PTI.

Considering the fact that the hub will cover countries like Australia, China, Korea, choosing India as the location is a significant decision, he added.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #31
69. What the hell do Nazis
have to do with over 1 million jobs being lost today?That isn't even a sane argument.Think about what you are saying
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #31
93. And what year are you living in???? Get over it you were NOT born then
people holding a grudge over history, how about holding a grudge over Prescott Bush and his children and what they have done to this country?? Or do you blame Bill Clinton too??????? What a sorry ass excuse for a reply.
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DonEBrook Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #93
161. You should have quit smoking that shit before it worked its magic.
:eyes:
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #161
165. You should go back to sniffing glue. Your talking points don't work around here.
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VPStoltz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #31
173. My father grew up in Detroit and he was already disjusted with the auto makers back in the 60's.
He knew damned well that the technology to build more fuel efficient cars existed even back then.
Detroit decided, what the F#$%, gas is cheap, let's go for it - and they did.
They pulled up mass transit and build shitty polluting cars.
They were dragged kicking and screaming in the ear of the catalytic converted.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I don't hate American workers, I happen to be one
and I've lost plenty of jobs to companies going out of business and no one has ever bailed those companies out. No one cared that my job was gone.

I see no reason to prop up insolvent companies. Workers find jobs elsewhere. That's the way it is.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. It's over a million jobs.
How do you replace that many jobs?It doesn't matter it's too late already we're all screwed.I'll be seeing you in the soup line.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #39
58. at least that many were shed in the dot com burst... one of mine among them
again, no one mentioned a bailout.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. You're not thinking logically
What do you think that does to the economy?What about the retirees?The dot com bust will seem like a boom time compared to this.
An IT job is nothing like a manufacturing job.Give me a break.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #62
73. gee, I'm glad you think so highly of tech jobs...
I'm so much more inclined to feel passion about manufacturing jobs... not.
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gizmo1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #73
129. I didn't make my point very clearly.
IT jobs what you work with is more universal than what a auto worker works with.I was angry at the time and I apologize, sorry.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #34
94. You are a bitter jealous person, that's what your problem is.
The AVERAGE age of the UAW auto worker is 52. MOST have been doing auto assembly for over 20 years. What would you have them do if the Big 3 go bankrupt, flip burgers? Move to India and do phone support for Microsoft? Oh wait, they CAN'T move to India, they aren't allowed to work there. I guess they can all just die then.


Stoopid is what stoopid writes.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #94
112. look, I'm happy to debate this with you...
but calling me names does not further your argument. You don't know anything about me, other than a few posts you've read, so spare me the snap judgments and stick to a rational argument.

thanks.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #112
141. Sure, I think, since you are so sensitive to arguing about people you know nothing about
I'll go into the next room and just pout, waaaahhhhhhhhhh waaaahhhhhhh
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
46. They built cars for Exxon-Mobil....let them bail them out --
Let US buy the plants and put workers to building ELECTRIC CARS --

NATIONALIZE OIL -- SAVE THE PLANET --!!!
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
51. May I suggest a modified bailout
Along the line of Michael Moore's "we own your ass now."

The big three should be bailed out and placed under new management by the new owners, the US taxpayers.

We don't need Ivy League grads to run a big company. Ivy League grads ran the US auto industry into the ground. Rick Wagoner, bend down and place your head is on the block. Top level management should be replaced altogether.

The common assembly line worker could design, build and market a car better than these bozos.


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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
78. and the trillions to the banks are ok because, well, the decision has already been made? please
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #78
107. of course not... I didn't support those bailouts, either
In general, I don't support the use of taxpayer funds to bailout bloated companies that have consistently operated for their own greed, and consistently taken advantage of the people who work for them.

These companies should fail, so that new forward-thinking companies can take their place.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #107
241. Have you noticed that very serious recession were in?
So sorry nobody bailed you out when you lost your job, but bitterness is not a good basis for policy-making.

I'm no fan of corporate bailouts either, but I fear letting Detroit tank could be much worse than spending a few tens of billions of taxpayer dollars we don't have. Hell, we do that every month in Iraq.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
85. I guess jobs and technology aren't an investment in America?
Have the Japanese, Koreans or Germans done any more than suck at the teat of State dependence?


I sometimes wonder what planet some of you come from.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
106. It's not the workers as much as it is the decisions to give the green light on crappy products.
Management has to be held accountable at some point. It does for most industries.

Bail them out, but with obvious oversight.
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
127. 3 to 5 million American jobs is not investing in America to you?
:eyes:

BTW, stop living in 1988 - American cars are far from "crappy."
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
132. good idea...kill off the auto industry when they make
some of the best cars in the world,have higher across the board miles per gallon than the japanese ,have the green car of the year,and when they can find enough batteries to mass produce an electric car by 2010. yes let`s kill off the american auto industry just when they are making world class autos...

ya no thanks...i do`t want to live the rest of my life in a depression.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
147. Agreed.
Even as they beg for money, they are sending US dollars abroad for more off shore operations.


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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #147
208. But guess what? that money comes back here. where do you think the money
you give to foreign automakers go?
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
169. you look funny without a nose! n/t
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BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
179. You have no idea what you are talking about
Edited on Sat Dec-06-08 12:02 PM by BeatleBoot
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
180. they certainly did help America...read some history books......
When our freedom was in danger in the early years of WWII,the American car companies(The very ones fighting for their survival), retooled their factories, and produced tanks, jeeps, and other military hardware, at a pace never before seen! The industrial output of the "Big Three" won the war for this country, along with Rosie the Riveter, and millions like her. Our industry saved the democracy Franklin Roosevelt called GM the arsenal of democracy.. Now , many say "let the car companies die."Douglas Macarthur once said" Old soldiers never die, they just fade away.

Our Biggest veteran is fading away ;(
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
197. Who do you think kept the economy going after 911? Or we can goe even further back to WWII
The goal of the 911 terrorists was to break this country economically. The automakers stepped up at that time, keeping people employed and selling cars. During WWII they produce the war machines that allowed us to defeat the Germans and Japan. You might want to actually read the article and research a little history before putting pen to paper, or should I say fingers on the keyboard? If you think you won't be affected by the automakers going under, you better think again. Every industry, housing, service, financial, technical (IT), State and Federal jobs will be affected if we lose these companies. Over a million people have lost their jobs in the last year, another four million out of work will affect everyone. People that don't have any money, don't spend it anywhere.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
201. I'll put my vehicle up against what you're driving any day.
Edited on Sat Dec-06-08 02:37 PM by notadmblnd
You've been brainwashed my MSM into buying what you think is a better product. Safety is just as important as reliability and fuel economy when it comes to being on the roads. And I can about guarantee you that I've had my vehicle in to the dealer for service less times than you have, and its been on the road for six years. Even if your foreign import is safe, economic and reliable, where do you think the money you've spent on it goes? Right back to the foreign country that sold it. At least my American made vehicle keeps the money in America.
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BobRossi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
219. Ever hear of World War Two?
"Arsenal of Democracy" ring a bell?
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nankerphelge Donating Member (995 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
232. Yes...
No bail out for these companies - this is a disaster of management's making. Congress should sit on the sidelines and if and when one of them goes belly up, give the money directly to workers who lose jobs through (1) job retraining and education grants; (2) new public works jobs; (3) stipends, grants, etc. to move to new jobs. No corporation is too big to fail. All the bail outs thus far have aimed money at the top, which only helps the top.
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PatrynXX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
236. kinda taking a crooked line looking at it.
How much is the parts in a car made in America? That and they don't make cars that last. Spend all that money on one really big paper weight. :P

Not that my parents can afford one at the moment but he pretty much laid it down the last time he bought an American car. Which he's always done. Think he's looking at a Hyundai hybrid style.
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StreetKnowledge Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. AMEN.
I cannot say that loud enough. The rest of the world props up their own industries. We instead let our jobs run away becasue business knows better than government, right?

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!. The auto industry is what little is left of America's industries, which built the middle class. Are we supposed to become a nation of just rich and poor? How does that help all of us?

Obama, Congress, are you bunch of lobbyist tit-sucking idiots listening? HELP THEM OUT, and start working for our betterment, not that of those f***ers on Wall Street. To hell with them.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. I would be willing to bet the UAW paid for that ad. A nice touch, but after watching the two days of
Hearings, it may be to late.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. It's an editorial, not an ad.
Detroit is a labor town, though. Heck, they have a highway named after a labor leader.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. I bet they still paid for it.
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revolve Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. You dont pay for an editorial
You pay for ads
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
61. In the words of Michael Corleone, "Now who's being naive, Kay?"
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #30
160. maybe you're not familiar with where newspapers get their revenue
Car Dealers are their NUMBER ONE customer.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #28
97. You are from Michigan and you are bitter towards the UAW?
Did you get fired or something? Keep missing putting the screw in the right hole? Dropped a tool on the line boss's foot? Got caught sabotaging the line?
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
95. It WASN'T an ad and NO ONE paid for it?
Thanks for your support of Union labor. :eyes:
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screembloodymurder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. Why not provide a temporary $3,000 subsidy for the buyers of American cars?
We could upgrade the fleet on the road with higher mileage, new vehicles and clear the dealers lots to allow for production of even higher mileage vehicles. I'll trade in my 20 year-old, 13 mpg SUV for a new one that gets 19 mpg. That's nearly 50% better mileage and I'll be driving a cleaner running, safer auto. Everybody wins.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Is your SUV an American product?
I'm asking for a couple of reasons - 1, Detroit made SUVs because people WANTED to buy them, and 2, if you have a 20-year old Detroit product, I don't see how people can complain about the quality.

Our family has had plenty of Chevrolets that ran for years. The car I drive now is used, and it's a Honda (if I could afford a new car, I'd buy American), and it needs plenty of work done it, as much as any US car I've owned. It runs fine for an older car, but it requires at least two trips to the mechanic a year for various things.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. What's "an American car"?
Is it made by GM and built in Canada or Mexico?

Or is it a Honda built in Ohio?

Tesha

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
98. The big Three do that every day in rebates
$3000 is not enough to stir sales.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. If we're going to do it we should own them 100%
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 02:29 PM by high density
I understand the jobs issue very deeply but I don't understand the logic in putting more money into these private companies than they're worth, unless we nationalize them.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
99. Why don't we OWN Toyota and Honda too? Their sales are in the toilet
but the Japanese Government is quietly pr oping them up. HOW do you think, for the first time in Toyota's history, they are offering ZERO percent financing?
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #99
207. Maybe because our tax payments go into the US Treasury
Just a possibility.

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #207
228. So you're saying that the Japanese transplants shouldn't be Nationalized?
And why not? What's good for the goose.........
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #228
238. The Big 3 didn't go to Japan asking for a loan.
They came to Uncle Sugar.

I don't give a shit what the Japanese do. That's their business.

I live and pay taxes in the USA,
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #238
242. And you don't know anything about Japan propping up Toyota, Honda and Nissan???
They sell their shit here, why shouldn't we slap tariffs on everything they DON'T make here so that "Uncle Sugar" doesn't have to rob the banks of the funds that were stolen from us?


You are a genius I tell ya, genius. :eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #242
249. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #249
250. Then why do you look in the mirror every day?
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. I used to be for the bailout
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 02:55 PM by gaspee
Now my 2001 Dodge Dakota needs another 1500 bucks in repairs - the truck is only worth 3000. I need it for work (delivery service) and can't afford the 8000 bucks to get something newer.

I have put thousands of dollars into this truck over the years. My best friend, who has a Toyota pickup, not only has a higher value for a truck made the same year, but has spent 1/4 on repairs of her truck over the years. Her truck has 180,000 miles, mine has 135,000.

Fuck Detroit - I am never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever buying an American car again. Period.

Edited to add:

I have spent, over the past 6 years, about 7000 in repairs on this truck. A grand here - 500 there, another grand there. It's fucking ridiculous. The front end has had to be replaced (tie rods and ball joints) four times in the past 5 years.

And car repair shops are full of crooks. Haven't found an honest one yet.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
38. It's a loan, not a bailout. n/t
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #38
164. It's a bailout. That's what government loans like this are, and what they're called.
You are confusing the terms "gift" and "bailout."

It's not a gift, it's a loan, but that loan is a bailout.

You do your side of the argument no good by playing word games that only mean something to you.
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1gobluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #164
235. Wow, do you pay your gifts back with interest?
Like the auto companies will do? I don't. A gift is a gift and a loan is a loan. Even if it comes from the government and not from a bank.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
66. I have a 2002 Ford Focus that has never had any service done
except oil changes, regular maintenance. I've only owned Fords. If Ford goes under, I have no idea what my next car will be.
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Brazenly Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
68. I'm sorry your experience was so bad, but I must say
my American car experience has been very different.

I drive a 1993 Ford with more than 300,000 miles on it and it starts first time every time, whether it's 100 degrees or subzero. The only work it's needed has been normal maintenance type stuff (brake jobs, etc) and one punctured gas line.

At this point, one of the four doors won't open for some reason, but the bucket seat has taken on the shape of my bucket and it's still a pleasure to drive.

Sometimes I think I'd love to have a little Smart Car to drive around, but I was taught to "use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without" and my little Escort just refuses to wear out.

My husband drove the same Taurus for 10 years and just recently traded it in for a Focus to save on gas costs. The Taurus was fine and the Focus is a lot like the Escort -- not at all glamorous but incredibly reliable.

Disclaimer: I do not, nor does any member of my family, work for Ford or for any of their suppliers.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. I think it's the model
The Dakota and Durangos are notorious for horrible front ends - which I didn't know then.

It's paid off, which is why I still drive it.

Between the transmission and the front end today, it was 1100 bucks, then I needed front tires to pass inspection, which was another 400 bucks -- I deliver in New England in the winter - I can't buy cheap tires.

I have to bring it back Tuesday to fix the O2 sensor so it passes inspection.

This is all money I don't have - luckily my mom let me borrow it. I need my truck to work but if I can't afford to fix it, I can't work to make money to fix it.

Sigh. I actually love the way my truck drives. I love the way it looks. Mileage isn't that bad because it's a two wheel drive light pick-up. Just I'm so sick of having to fix the front end and transmission.

I wrote my last email literally seconds after I got the news on the price. I was still kind of shocked and angry.

I think, for the right price, I could be persuaded to give them another chance.

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Brazenly Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. Yeah, I really do feel for you.
I grew up in a big city with excellent public transportation. It wasn't until we moved to the country that we learned two important things:

1. "Green Acres" was a documentary; and
2. Some people really do need to drive.

When you absolutely have to drive, every problem with your vehicle drives you nuts, even the normal everyday crap. If I had problems like you've had, I'd be screaming, too.
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #71
149. Sounds to me like you should be angry at the "repair guys" for not fixing it right the first time.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #149
154. Why not Dodge for not making it right the first time?
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #154
170. Everything is not always perfect the first time and so needs to be made right. The repair guys took
your money to fix it and didn't why is that Dodge's fault. I had an S10 blazer 1991 bought new it had front end problems too, over the course of about 3 years it was fixed I didn't pay a penny because 1) I caught it under warranty the first time is messed up, and 2) I made the repair guys fix it right several times after they tried to tell me it was something more than they said the first time.They actually said to my SO "there's nothing seriously wrong, you know how women drive" after that I went ballistic on their ass and it WAS fixed right.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #170
187. It's Dodge's fault
Because it's their repair guys. Most of this stuff was recalls.
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #187
191. If it was recalls you shouldn't have tp pay a dime!
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #191
217. Too much of it wasn't though
The recall stuff I didn't pay for, but everything else I did - including the new front end 4 times and the new transmission solenoid - twice - in 135,000 miles. New Waterpump twice, new alternator... serpentine belt goes every three months - overall it's constantly having problems.

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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #11
163. Sounds exactly like the Fix Or Repair Daily F-150 I had.
It was a 1998, and I finally just gave it away to someone who needed something - anything - to drive.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #163
215. Ford Ranger broke down the day I drove it off the lot.
I had it towed to another dealer to get it fixed.

Basically, "fuck you" since you didn't buy it here.

I had to sit on the curb waiting for a cab to take me to get a rental.

No brand loyalty whatsoever.

Fast forward a few years. I bought a used Toyota that gets almost 50 mpg. Took it to the dealer for routine service. Treated me like royalty. Gave me a loaner to drive.

It's a lot more than product quality that makes a customer return and US companies have a lot to learn.

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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #215
233. Many of those dealers don't even worry about servicing cars they sold.
I know a WWII vet who is about 85 years old. He bought a brand new Chevy last year, and when it had six months on it, trouble started with the car and various electrical problems. When he went back to the dealership he learned the guy who sold him the car had left. No one in the dealership seemed to want to help him. He got his son involved, who discovered that his father was considered an "orphan" at the dealership, a term the dealership used for customers who had bought cars from salesmen who had left the dealership.

Their philosophy was that the guy who got the sales commission should help only his customers. So, no one else at the dealership was interested in helping this old man with a new car he'd bought six months earlier at that dealership.

This is a major dealership in Houston. They treated the guy like shit, and he's one of those guys who has bought a new GM car every 3-5 years for 60 years. THAT is why GM is going down the tubes.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #233
237. There is a Chevy dealer where I live now that is great.
I hope there is a Chevy worth buying in five years or so when my little Toyota falls apart.

Ford - never again.
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bongbong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
193. finding good mechanics
If you haven't found an honest car mechanic, I can sympathize with you. I got ripped off in the past as well.

One thing I've done is use Click-n-Clack's mechanic referral service on cars.com. Look for mechanics in your area with lots of good feedback. Every mechanic I've found with it have been great.
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ogneopasno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
17. Beautiful. Too bad no one will want to buy a "souvenir" copy of it.
I love it. Well done, Free Press. That's what a newspaper should be doing. Brilliant.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
18. K & fookin' R ...
:kick:
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
19. The big 3 produce mostly crap, yet the health of the unions is imperative.
Think: What to do? Republicans desperately desire the destruction of America's unions, and have been gunning for such quite strongly during and since Reagan.

Perhaps we could force them to do nothing but produce as many Prius as they are able.
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Nexus7 Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
56. Yes, they did, and I know it first hand
I had an American-made van and... well, let's not go there.

But the repubs opposition to bail them out is a thinly veiled attempt to break the unions. It Reid an Pelosi were worth their salt (which they aren't), they'd ram a bailout through *now*. Reid is such a worthless leader, he can get anything done even with a majority.

What I would like to see is the "management team," "board of directors", and all these free-loaders gotten rid of. There should be plenty of career people in the auto companies who actually know something about making cars, as opposed to glad-handing. That is when they'll stop making crap.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
100. The Big 3 produce crap? Back your statement up. Oh wait why should you
this is DU, you can bash the shit out of American labor and manufacturing and get away with it.
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Herman74 Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #100
125. The Big 3 Produce GLOBAL-WARMING, AIR-POLLUTING, RESOURCE-DEPLETING Crap!!!!
You want proof you say??? Go on, get behind the exhaust pipe of one your beloved vehicles when it's running and then inhale. What, you're not TOO CHICKEN TO DO SO, ARE YOU, and thereby obtain the "proof" that you seek??????

And then think too about how every day I as a bicyclist in traffic have to inhale the filth -- THE GODDAMN FILTH -- that you and people like you have no qualms about putting into the air that people breathe. DAMN!!!!!
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jakefrep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #125
128. So does every other automaker...what's your point?
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #125
140. Tool
In the dictionary rests your picture next to the description

:shrug:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. Does anyone else find it disturbing that the Detroit media is the mouthpiece of the big 3?
In the long run Detroit would be better served by the death of the big 3 and the regaining of some kind of autonomy. These car companies have been calling the shots for over 70 years and they've really fucked the place up.
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revolve Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. That is just dumb
Detroit would cease to exist without the big three.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Have you been to detroit over the last 20 years? It's been dying with the big 3
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 05:29 PM by JVS
The big 3 has ben destroying Detroit just like GM destroyed Flint.

What's dumb is thinking that the car companies give a shit about Detroit or Michigan in general. They've demonstrated well that they don't.
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revolve Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Actualy I go to Detroit all the time
And the auto companies caring about Detroit and Michigan has nothing to do with it, its all about the jobs.

Michigan already has the highest unemployment rate in the country, what would hapen if the Big Three left do you think?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. The same thing that happened in Pittsburgh. Eventually the city would develop an economy...
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 05:44 PM by JVS
in which they are not at the constant mercy of the big 3. That city has been going down the shitter for 30 years and nobody seemed to give a fuck. Now the plutocrats from the big 3 are in trouble and we're all expected to rally to their side. Fuck that, and fuck the big 3. My best wishes to Detroit, but you'll be better off without those goldbricking fuckwads in the suits calling the shots for your town.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. Precisely - briefly visited Pittsburgh in the late seventies and it was falling apart. Went back for
the first time since then this last spring, and it's booming. They got past the steel industry, diversified their economy, and now Pittsburgh is a wonderful place to visit. Detroit should look to Pittsburgh as a model to emulate in this regard.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #55
101. And how many years did it take Pittsburgh to recover???
And how many people left to find jobs elsewhere? Qualification, how to make your statement seem logical.


Like you said, Pittsburgh is a wonderful place to visit, but I bet you don't want to work there.
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #55
158. When the steel industry in Pittsburgh died there were other jobs out there to be had, in case you
Edited on Sat Dec-06-08 10:27 AM by madmom
didn't see the report the other day even service sector jobs or being lost now. Those are the so-called jobs of the future bush was so proud of creating. The ones that make minimum wage and no benefits. When 30 people show up for a job as waitress at Denny's we're in trouble.

edited to add, it was the big 3 in part that help these people find new jobs, back then they were hiring a lot of people, it was the UAW who held GM's feet to the fire and made them buy US steel until recently, because foreign steel is/was crap.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
52. It's been "dying" with the purposeful help of Big 3 ....
We don't need more of this --
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #20
45. It's disgusting
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
54. Agree -- let US take over plants -- build electric cars --
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #54
102. OK, I've had enough of your "meme"
I see what you are all about here. "Click" for you. Goodbye.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
121. The Freep is tied to the mast of the big 3
They go under, the freep goes under

in translation, it should red:
"Fellow Americans: Give us your money. Actually, you will not voluntarily give us anything. We will use our political influence to make the government take the money from you. Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie."
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jakefrep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #20
130. Why is that a bad thing?
Somebody needs to tell the truth.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #130
248. I have to explain to you why a corporate directed media is a bad thing?
:crazy:
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jakefrep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #248
253. Since when does having a clue what they're writing about = "corporate-directed media"?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #253
254. Since when is being the big three's stooge knowing what they're writing about?
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jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
43. This resembles the "hurt the board of ed by defeating their budget" arguement.
I've heard it so many times: "I resent the board of ed (all 7 or 11 of them) so much that I will do everything in my power to defeat their budget."

When you point out that you're only hurting the children, they just dismiss you.

We can try to punish the officers of the big three by refusing them a loan, but in the end, they'll still do just fine. It's the little guy who you're really hurting.

We don't make anything in america anymore. This is one of our few exports.

I say, give them the loan but make the people who have run these companies into the ground resign without severance before you cut the check, and recall the loan if they're rehired in the industry.

What do you auto industry insiders say to that? Reasonable, or no?
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #43
103. You are wasting your time, there is a cadre of people here who's EXPRESS purpose
is to destroy the opinion of the UAW, JUST like they worked to destroy the opinion of Obama during the election.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
53. Late to the game, but proud to kick and rec nonetheless. n/t
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
63. Well done.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
72. END OF THE ROAD: IS THE AUTO INDUSTRY DEAD???
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
79. America needs a new vision that involves alternative energy and transportation
-New cool designs that propel us into the alternative energy age would save the industry and help the country. We can solve so many problems all at once if government 'bailouts' were used precisely in this manner, and NO money wasted on CEOs.

The bailouts must be put into R & D, and upgrading all the plants to build these vehicles, paying decent worker salaries and benefits. The technologies already exists!! I would be proud to buy one of these new vehicles and know I was supporting the country.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #79
104. New cool designs? Is that what you are about, new cool designs???
This isn't about iPods, this is about cars, and there are LOTS of new cool designs out there, it's just that you are clueless to the choices.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #79
135. they had to take part of the r&d research money to keep the industry afloat
we will have to wait till january 21 when the adults will be in charge. do`t bitch at the auto industry...it`s the union busters in congress and the white house that`s the problem now.
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
80. 1,000 copies of this edition of the DFP were hand delivered to all Congresscritters on the Hill
Early Friday morning.

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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
81. k+r
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judasdisney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:24 AM
Response to Original message
87. Ben Stein (of all people) says "Rescue them PRONTO"
Friday on hour 2 of the fascist Michael Medved Show.

Medved was expecting the usual Nazi Ben Stein.

Instead Stein has converted into a Keynesian.

I never thought I'd see stuff like this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/16/sunday/main46...

http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/yourlife/122582
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antimatter98 Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
96. Why is Congress anti-labor but pro bank and Wall Street?
Congress chided the Big 3 for:
1. not having business plans
2. arriving in corp. jets

Congress did NOT ask these questions of the banks and of Wall Street
when they handed over an initial $700bn and continue to hand over more
and more.

Why is Congress anti labor, anti manufacturing, but pro white collar, pro banking and pro Wall Street?

Congress is conducting a class war and needs to be stopped before America goes down for the count.

And, sorry to say, Obama's Rubin is in on this class war--he worked with Paulson on the
Citigroup bailout over a weekend, but has done ZERO for working Americans and actual, real industry.
(Rubin was big on NAFTA and deregulation and is on Obama's economic team---big help he will be)

Why is our government, our Congress against manufacturing and blue collar workers?

Let's have our own hearings, where we ask Congress these questions--they clearly are not feeling accountable to the people, but listen intently to the banks and Wall Street. Let's give them
hearing aids to hear us!

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #96
105. HEAR HEAR
:hi:

I wake up and see this mess here. And I think, all of my brothers and sisters MY age (I'm 57) trying to find a Job competing with snot-nosed kids flipping burgers because their mommies and daddies buy them Japanese cars. So sad.
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DirtyJersey Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #105
225. Just an off-topic curiosity
Your info page says that you're an autoworker and you live in New Jersey. I thought all the plants in this state closed? I know there used to be a Ford plant in Edison and a GM plant in Linden, but I didn't think there were any others.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #225
226. There aren't any longer
and I worked Linden in the 80's. And where I work, we are a UAW shop. One of the few remaining. Thanks for asking. :hi:
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
122. I vote to Loan them the Money.
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ellie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
124. Nice!
The auto companies cannot be allowed to fail. People who think they should are insane. There is no other word to describe it. Millions of workers out of work because management and the shareholders suck? Why not fix the problem and get rid of management and the shareholders? s
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #124
133. simple solutions to resolve a problem?
no it`s easier for some just to offer nothing as a solution.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
136. Although I HATE the phrase UNPATRIOTIC, I believe it fits
in this situation. Anyone who votes against helping out Detroit is anti-american.....anti-union.
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
137. Kudos to the Free Press. I'm sure the smug assholes
cheering on the demise of the manufacturing sector and the American working class will equally enjoy the incoming pictures of modern day bread lines and frozen bodies. Serves 'em right! k&r
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #137
146. yes ---i just found out we do not have a "right" to be employed
it`s not in the constitution so we do`t have a right to be employed. guess we should just live off the government dole!
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #146
153. It's the old "why should a factory rat have a good job when
I don't" argument. That's what's really behind a lot of the "discussion" . It doesn't really matter what you're education level or skills are at this point,good luck selling them in a non existent economy.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #146
155. We could eat dirt?
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
145. they're just sucking up to their classified ad customer base
They're looking out for their own businesses. Newspapers are just businesses that publish something called a newspaper. They're about the bottom line, and nothing else.

Two months ago, we were told the banking and stock markets were going to collapse without $700 billion in bailout money, which rapidly became the biggest THEFT in the history of the country.

Let GM go into bankruptcy, and if they fail, someone else will pick up the pieces - someone more competent and deserving of a loan that the people who get the company in the mess it is in.

Absolutely no bailout money until all of the top management has resigned.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #145
151. really....
ford makes better cars than honda and toyota

the chevy malibu is the car of the year

gm product has a higher mpg than any other manufacture in the world

the chevy volt is ready for production

ford has reduced warranty work by 45%

chevy has the "green car of the year"

chevy has a fleet of 4th generation fuel cell vehicles in several major cities in america

chrysler has the most efficient plant of any auto manufacture in the united state

ford is bringing in 3 models from europe and building an engine plant

seems to me they have been doing a pretty good job in building and developing automobiles that the public wants

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #151
156. Wow truthiness, I am impressed.
:fistbump:
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DonEBrook Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #151
162. All of which, if true, means nothing in the marketplace as long as people think they're crap.
Because they were crap for so very long. :shrug:
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #162
167. Keep spouting those Right wing talking points
We keep hearing that from the "Right to work" states and Senator Shelby. You don't happen to work for him, do you?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #167
176. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #151
166. If that were true, the Big Three wouldn't be on death's doorstep.
You're in denial.

They've built overpriced crap for decades, and now, they're sinking in the mess they created.

It makes no sense to sink more money into the same people and same bad business model that got them into such a mess. We should not have done it for the banks, and we should not do it for the auto industry.

The plants will be bought out of bankruptcy, they'll be retooled, and someone who is more competent at making, selling and servicing cars will be in charge. They'll hire workers, and those workers will have jobs.
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #166
168. But what happens to millions of workers until then, states are already running out of unemployment
benefits, are we/they supposed to eat dirt?
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Broadslidin Donating Member (949 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #151
189. Just return from the 'Mother Ship'.....? Again....
:nuke: :hide: :nuke:
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #151
211. Lying will not make your case.
"gm product has a higher mpg than any other manufacture in the world"

That's a lie. Here's the truth.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/nhtsa_static_file_downl...
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #151
239. Then why
are the Big 3 so deeply in the red and coming to Congress with cap in hand? None of the things you mention make a bit of difference if they can't get people to BUY their cars and make a profit from the operation. If they fail at that, they fail.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #145
243. And what about their workers? Tough shit, eh?
And in the middle of the worst recession since the 1930s, too.

I was in Texas when the economy went south in the 1980s. If you get your way, you'll probably get a tast of that, too.
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The Animator Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
184. Sometimes desperate times do in fact call for desperate measures.
I've got no love for the leadership of the Big 3. They've continued to focus on making gas guzzlers while we've watch the price of gas quadruple over the last eight years. What has happened to them now, is exactly what happened in the 70 during the OPEC gas crisis. They made big gas guzzlers then too, and they got spanked by this German company that made a ridiculous looking yet very fuel efficient car called the Beetle. What? You mean that when gas prices are high the consumers want to buy cars with good fuel economy... surely not.

That is half the reason they are in this mess, if you're a car company and don't make cars that people want to buy, then sooner or later you will go out of business. The other half though, is not their fault, and beyond their control. The two biggest investments the average middle class American makes are a house, and a car. These two investments are expensive and most consumers need to get a loan first in order to buy them.

The Banking industry, and by extension our government for not regulating them, have fucked up big time. The banks have seriously crippled their own ability to make new loans. This is not just bad for the banking industry, this has repercussions in other industries, primarily industries that require cooperation from the banks. The housing industry has taken a big hit, because if people can't get house loans, they can't buy houses. The auto industry has taken a huge hit because if people can't get a car loan, then they can't buy a car.

If you want a banana, you just go to the store and get one. If you needed a middleman to approve your banana purchase, and the middleman was no longer approving any purchases, the banana industry would be in trouble too.

This doesn't excuse the Big 3, because if they had been making cars that people wanted, they would not be as vulnerable to collapse as they are now. If they went out of business on their own, say a year from now when the economy has stabilized I would say, let them fail. The absence of the Big 3 would allow smaller more innovative car companies to spring up, and compete in a market that had previously been impossible to get a foothold in. Tucker would have thrived in an America without the big 3.

However, given our economy's current health, the collapse of the Big 3 would only make the situation much much worse. The surest way to prevent things from getting worse is to keep, more people from losing their jobs. When people have jobs, they have money to spend on the things that they need. When they buy those things they are helping to support the jobs of other people, who in turn, continue to have money to buy the things that they need. The American Auto industry employs a lot of people, people who are not responsible for their boss' decision to make cars people don't want. If the economy were healthy, these people would be able to find other work if the Big 3 failed. Maybe even get together with their former co-workers and start one of those small innovative car companies I was talking about.

But the economy isn't healthy, and if these people lose their jobs they won't be able to find another, because there are none to be had. I'm not saying this to make you feel sorry for them, because it doesn't just end there. These people, who no longer have jobs, no longer have money to buy the things that they need. When they can no longer buy these things, they can no longer help support the jobs of other people, who in turn no longer have money to buy the things that they need.

The out of work auto workers could always get loans to see them through till they can find another job... oh no wait they can't...

The loss of so many jobs, when there are no new jobs to be had will have widespread economic repercussions. It will affect businesses that have nothing to do with the Big 3's decision to make cars that people don't want. Those businesses will go bankrupt because the autoworkers who spent their money there no longer have money. The employees of those companies will also be out of work, further flooding a job market with no jobs.

Since a government bailout could come with preconditions, it could effect positive change in the industry. Changes like "Okay, were gonna give you this money, but only under the following conditions.

1. No factory closures in the US

2. No body on the production line looses their jobs to budget cuts.

3. You gotta start making cars with better fuel economy, cause that's what people want to buy.

4. Your execs have to take a serious paycut, we don't fault them for climbing the corporate ladder, but there's a difference between rich and filthy rich.

5. No CEO bonuses, bonuses are for CEOs that run their companies well, you guys obviously suck or we wouldn't need to give you the money.

6. You need to step down as CEO of your company and let someone that actually knows what the hell they're doing take charge. Maybe somebody from Volkswagen.
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
186. They need to convert to zero pollution motors style of green for ordinary cars


http://zeropollutionmotors.us /

Pure Driving: The Revolutionary Compressed Air Vehicle

If you can, imagine a vehicle that runs on air, achieves over 100 gas-equivalent mpg and over 90 mph, has zero to low C02 emissions, seats six, has plenty of space for luggage, cuts no safety corners, and costs no more than an average economy to mid-size vehicle.

This is the expected performance of the revolutionary compressed air vehicle that Zero Pollution Motors (ZPM) is introducing to North America. The vehicle is powered by the Compressed Air Engine (CAE) developed by Motor Development International (MDI), a 15-year old company based in Nice, France, and headed by inventor and Formula One race car engineer, Guy Negre. ZPM is the exclusive representative for MDI in the United States.


six seater orange six seater green

Meet the Air Vehicle Family

MDI has announced the model names it will use on its market models. The overall car brand will be the FlowAIR. The existing protytypes will retain their first names to now become the


One FlowAIR, Mini FlowAIR, and City FlowAIR. The urban public transportation concept vehicles will be know as the Multi FlowAIR.

Competitive Price

We estimate the cost of purchasing a six-seater, 75hp Air Car will be approximately $17,800, proving that buying green doesnt have to cost more. Not only is the price amazingly affordable, but it will cost you up to five times less in fuel consumption than an equivalent gasoline powered car. The Air Car is a totally new breed of cars entirely conceived to achieve low prices:

Ingenious design. The cars modular, advanced materials and manufacturing techniques simplify manufacture.

No dealers = no middleman costs. In our business model, your Air Car is delivered to you directly from the local/regional factory, eliminating any dealer mark-up and shipping costs.

Low fuel costs. You can get an equivalent of 106 MPG. It can cost as little as $2 to refill your tank with air.

Simple maintenance. All parts will be supplied by the manufacturer to a network of licensed repair shops that will simply replace defective parts. It is easy, fast and first class since all parts are new.

Reduced maintenance anyway. The Air Car requires no cooling circuit and uses no hot gases.

No combustion = no residues. An oil change is only necessary every 31,000 miles!Vehicle Specifications

Length - 13.4 ft
Width - 5.97 ft
Height - 5.74 ft
Seating - 6 seats
Trunk volume - 35 cubic ft
Weight - 1874 lbs
Engine - 6 Cyl.
Power - 75 hp
Max Speed - 96 mph*
Mileage - 106 mpg*
Range - 848 miles (8 gal tank) *
Co2 - 0.141 lbs/mile (at speeds >35mph; zero emissions at <35mph)

* estimated performance and subject to change

Standard Features will include:

Computer based screen display of vehicle control parameters
Full CFC-free A/C
Airbags
Fully reclining drivers seat
Power windows, door locks and mirrors
Deluxe AM/FM stereo with cassette and cd player, optional GPS
Rear window defogger
Concealed spare tire
All season 13-inch radial tires
A cold weather package will be available

Engine and Transmission Characteristics include:

Horsepower: 75
Power source: Electronically injected compressed air
Oil volume and oil change interval: 0.8 liter at 50,000 miles
Engine mount: Rear
Transmission: Automatic, Continually Variable Transmission. Rear wheel drive.
Suspension: Front coil spring, rear pneumatic.
Steering mechanism: Rack and pinion.
Chassis and body materials: Aluminum and fiber glass.
Tanks: Thermoplastic lining and carbon fiber.

Fuel Characteristics:

Compressed Air: 3200 ft3 @ 4500 psi
Charger: On board 5.5 kwh 110/220 v compressor generating 812 ft3 /hr.




High Fuel Economy

The Compressed Air Vehicless revolutionary compressed air engine is expected to achieve a fuel economy of a remarkable 106 miles per gallon. When the energy used to heat compressed air entering the engine is accounted for, and average driving speeds factored, the average economy is expected to be 106 gasoline-equivalent mpg. See How the CAE Engine Works. Compare the Compressed Air Vehicles fuel economy with those vehicles listed as The Greenest Vehicles of 2007 by the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy (Source: www.greenercars.com ).
Make and Model Specifications Emission Standarda MPG:
City MPG: Hwy Green
Score
TOYOTA PRIUS 1.5L 4, auto CVT Tier 2 bin 3 / PZEV 48 45 53
HONDA CIVIC HYBRID 1.3L 4, auto CVT Tier 2 bin 2 / PZEV 40 45 51
SMART FORTWO CONVERTIBLE/COUPE 1.0L 3, auto stk

Tier 2 bin 5 / ULEV II 33 41 49
HONDA FIT 1.5L 4, auto Tier 2 bin 5 / LEV II 27 34 43
FORD ESCAPE HYBRID 2.3L 4, auto CVT Tier 2 bin 3 / PZEV 34 30 42
HYUNDAI SONATA 2.4L 4, auto Tier 2 bin 5 / ULEV II 21 30 39

SUBARU OUTBACK WAGON
2.5L 4, auto stk 4wd Tier 2 bin 5 / PZEV 20 26 37
NISSAN ROGUE 2.5L 4, auto Tier 2 bin 5 / LEV II 22 27 37
TOYOTA TACOMA 2.7L 4, auto Tier 2 bin 5 / LEV II 19 25 34
TOYOTA SIENNA 3.5L 6, auto Tier 2 bin 5 / ULEV II 17 23 33

CHEVROLET TAHOE HYBRID C1500
6.0L 8, auto Tier 2 bin 5 / LEV II 21 22 28
NISSAN FRONTIER 4.0L 6, auto 4wd Tier 2 bin 5 / ULEV II 14 19 27

denotes premium gasoline.
auto CVT denotes continuously
variable automatic transmission.
auto stk denotes
manually adjustable automatic transmission.
a A listing
with two emission standards (e.g., Tier 2 bin
3 / PZEV) denotes a single vehicle carrying both
a federal and California emission certification.
Green Scores for such listings reflect the cleaner
of the two certifications.

Refueling: The Air Vehicle can be refilled with Air at home or in your parking garage by plugging it into a normal power outlet. The compressed Air tank is also automatically refilling when driving at higher speeds.

Worlds Cleanest Car

To drive the worlds cleanest car is no longer wishful thinking. The Compressed Air Vehicle is the first affordable and accessible clean car. It brings us our dream: to drive pollution-free and free of fuel dependency.

At Lower Speeds: Since the Compressed Air Vehicle is running exclusively on compressed air, it emits only air - zero pollution. The air expelled from the tail pipe is actually cleaner than the air used to fill the tank. This is because before compression, the air is run through carbon filters to eliminate dirt, dust, humidity, and other urban air impurities that could hamper the engines performance.

At Higher Speeds: At speeds over 35mph the Compressed Air Vehicle uses small amounts of fueleither gasoline, propane, ethanol or bio fuelsto heat air inside a heating chamber as it enters the engine. This process produces emissions of only 0.141lbs of CO2 per mile. That is up to 4 times less than the average vehicle and more than two times less than the cleanest vehicle available today. (Toyota Prius 07 Emissions: 0.34 lbs of CO2 per mile. Source: www.hybridcars.com )

See How the CAE Engine Works

The Compressed Air Vehicle is designed to make a major difference in urban areas especially, where motor vehicles are the single largest contributor to ground-level ozone, a major component of smog. Each year, the cars we drive emit millions of tons of pollutants, contributing heavily to global warming and acid rain. Only a clean technology that is affordable to the many can slow down and eventually - when a critical mass is reached on a global basis - reverse this lethal evolution.

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antimatter98 Donating Member (537 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
188. GM: Innovation sacrificed to profits --- NY Times article today.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/06/business/06motors.htm...

Note in the article the theme of: the financial guys ran the company into the ground.

This is what our banks and Wall Street folks have done to America.

It's all about 'finance.' As bad as having lawyers run a company.

America needs a new business plan, not just GM.
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bongbong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
192. clueless opinions on this topic
I worked as an R&D engineer for one of the big three for years. I also worked in software development for other companies after I left Detroit. So let me tell you folks how it is in the Real World of big iron manufacturing.

The problem with a lot of comments on this subject is that they are clueless about how long this process takes with real machines vs. software or books or whatever.

How long do you think it takes to develop an electric car? How long do you think it takes to play leapfrog, rather than catch-up, with the latest automotive and related technology? How long do you think it takes to test and make sure your product meets Federal standards? The answer to these questions is --- years. And these timelines aren't due to lack of talent, they are due to the simple physical limits of dealing with large scale real world manufacturing.

Do you think you make a new car line by just waving a magic wand? NO! Just a FEW of the steps: design it, make sure it will meet myriad safety and other standards, make sure it will sell with marketing studies, prepare the manufacturing plan, order the machine tools, make sure your raw material supply chain is in place, make sure you have real estate to put the manufacturing plant in or a plan to transition some old production lines into the new ones.

Each of those steps takes many weeks or months; and you're not EVEN CLOSE to production yet!

And its a moving target! By the time Detroit develops a new small car to meet demands of high fuel prices, oil has dropped and now Americans want big cars. I'm not talking hypothetical, either. This actual event happened at least twice in the past, after both the 1973 and 1979 oil price spikes. It's not just random chance that it took Japan many decades to introduce large cars into the American market, even though they already produced them for the Japan home market - Toyota had been making a large car since the early 60's but it was only sold in Japan for decades.

The reason the Japanese companies are better at weathering that particular problem is that most 3rd world markets demand only small cars no matter what the price of oil. When there is a demand for large cars and less demand for small cars, the Japanese can rely on their world sales.

There are many problems at the root of the Detroit problem, some of which are:

1) too many bean-counters in charge, too few engineers (the opposite in Japan & Germany)
2) too many people get advanced via politics vs. talent (true of industry in general, worse in America)
3) related to no. 1 is the stock-market mindset thruout American business that bonuses depend on results this year rather than this decade

I saw the problems up close and personal. If the banks can get trillions in BAILOUTS, we can afford a few billions in LOANS. NOTE THE DIFFERENCE!!!
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #192
196. please do`t blind people with the truth
it took almost 6 months to install a new production line where my daughter works. they have new two production lines coming in the second quarter of next year. that`s just the production...

i worked at the same plant in the late 60`s when air pollution controls were just starting...the engineers did`t have a clue if the part was going to work...it did and was used until the first generation of engines were built with pollution controls "engineered in".

the time is over to lay blame.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #192
206. There's a few lessons the Big 3 should have learned from the Japanese...
the biggest lesson can be summed up in 3 letters: TQM. There are books written about this and it is taught in business schools, why can't Detroit learn?

1. Kaizen
2. Atarimae Hinshitsu
3. Kansei
4. Miryokuteki Hinshitsu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Quality_Management

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Still Sensible Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
195. At the moment, saving the industry is more important than the agenda
Have these auto companies made mistakes? No question. While many of us have wanted them to become more energy efficient and more ecologically responsible for a long time, the marketplace led them to focus on trucks and SUVs over the last decade. GM made a profit most of those years. I know all three of these companies make decent trucks and SUVs and, because I travel a lot and rent a lot of cars, I can tell you that by and large US cars are incredibly inferior--in everything from fuel efficiency to performance to comfort.

It seems that many here would like to take advantage of the opportunity that the current financial crisis affords to allow these companies to go under so that new entities--in the image our green desires would like to see--in their place.

That would be wrong!!!!!!!!!

Manipulating circumstance, at the expense of many peoples' livelihoods, to advance a political and social agenda--no matter how desirable that agenda may be--is flat out irresponsible in my view. And it would be little different from what the Bush GOP has doing for eight years with their agendas.

I believe the right approach would be to provide the companies these bridge loans to protect our neighbors' jobs and not make the recession worse. Do it under guidelines that require a business plan that ensures the taxpayers get paid back, that require the companies to move toward the greener, more ecologically responsible approach we desire, and not reward the executives for their past shortcomings.

And please, could the media quit equating the bridge loan plan being considered with the money-down-the-craphole financial bailout? It angers me that that the political atmosphere is such that somehow these two things are equated, despite the fact that what is being discussed for the auto industry is in fact twenty times less money than the financial bailout and would be loans with real oversight--compared to what looks like is going to end up being outright theft of the public treasury in favor of the banks.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #195
199. worked when we loaned Chrysler money
took almost three months to make the deal. chrysler gave us the mini van and a new generation of smaller cars.they paid off the loan and the american taxpayers made money. it`s been done before and it will be done again.
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WritingIsMyReligion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
202. They need to force the Big 3 to produce real and futuristic products, not crap.
Get in the 21st century, Detroit.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
209. Maybe they'll do the same now for homelessness?
Telling Congress we MUST have enough low-income housing for everyone??

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PM Martin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
224. Perhaps these guys should be nationalized.
.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #224
240. So should the Republican party
Listen to yourselves, Nationalize the Big 3. Are YOU going to run them???

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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spindrifter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
247. Outstanding!!!
Go Detroit! We stand with you, united we will win.
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Radical Logik Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
258. Inaction bred the great depression
And inaction today will breed a greater depression. 4 million jobs will be lost if any of the big three fall. The companys fates are intertwined, because most of the subcontracters for parts make parts for multiple companys, and if a big company fails, the parts manufactures lose 1/3 of income, killing any profit being made, killing their buisness.

I dont like the decisions of the big three in the past, but the brilliance of the loan is that the government can decide what conditions go along with it, and where the money goes. This is not a bailout, this is a loan, one which will be paid back, and then some.

The big three cannot do a chapter 11 bankrupcy because of labor contracts, ect. They would just have to fail.

And about the quality of the big three versus foriegn, for example GM kills toyota. The big three occupy 6 of the top 10 quality cars. Toyota consistantly ranks lowest quality out of any car manufacterer. So dont tell me that foriegn is better, they are not. U.S companys make the best quality consistantly.

ALSO THIS IS A LOAN, not a bailout. If you wanna get loud and yell, yell at the 700 BILLION being given away to banking institution WITHOUT ANY conditions. This would be a LOAN of 25 billion dollars, a loan that would definatly save MILLIONS of jobs, a loan with conditions. The way this is being done and negotiated is the way the bailout should have been done.
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painter08 Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-06-08 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
259. I cannot beleive this shight
its pretty sickening shit. If any body deserves a bailout. its the auto industry!!! if it wasnt for the auto industry we would all be speaking German!!!
yes! we would!! please let me refresh your memory. the big 3 are ww2 veterans also!!!! They helped preserve the freedom we all enjoy today!!!! anyone who says we should not bail them out is just plain ignorant!!!!and is stupid!!!! there should be no debate about this at all!!!! the auto industry saved this country's ass in ww2 but because the people in power right now were still pooping on themselves at the time they dont see the role they played.
instead, we would rather give billions of our money to the banking industry??? The very culprits who got us into this mess to begin with and we are going to give them more money??? are wfc??? wtf????? what has the banking industry done for the american? What?? big fat zero!!!! they have helped the rich grow richer thats it!!! when you look up the word greed, bank should be under it. so enough of my rant. i will end with this. Our government is indebted to the auto industry, Period!!!! They owe them one. Its not an issue that needs debate. Its a duty this government needs to perform right now!!!!!!!!!!!
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-07-08 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
268. Yeesh. Freeper Press is all of a sudden in favor of government spending?
Where were they when the fascists were being voted into office over the last 14 years?
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