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Lest we forget: the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:39 AM
Original message
Lest we forget: the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/pngv.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_a_New_Gene...

http://www.algore.org/node/585

Taxpayers shelled out $1.1 billion to the Big Three to develop advanced fuel efficient vehicles.

They did - the prototypes got 72-80 mpg - then they had the Bush administration cancel the program in 2001.

and now these assholes want $34 billion bucks???

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predfan Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. I had a salesman in this week who usually drives about 1000 miles a week........
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 11:50 AM by predfan
covers 5 states, in a Saturn. On his last fill up he's getting 39 MPG........he keeps his foot out of the carburetor, tires inflated, regular tune-ups.........my 225,000 Maxima will get 30 MPG when I drive 60...........IMO We need to change Interstate speed limits to 65 today, then force states to follow. wouldn't we save about 10% on fuel, at least?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Was the PNGV even discussed at the Bailout bearings?
:shrug:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. A concept = / = an economically viable production vehicle
Why doesn't Toyota make an 80 mpg diesel hybrid? :shrug:
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. They never even tried - and now want a $34 billion bailout.
If they had made the effort, and put these cars into production, would the the Big 3 be in the fix they're in today?

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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Effort will not make exotic, NASA style technology cost $15k
Again, why doesn't Toyota make an 80 mpg diesel hybrid for the US market?

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Neither hybrids nor fuel-efficient diesels constitute "exotic NASA style technology"
again - they never even tried to put these cars into production - for $15k or any other price...
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Why doesn't ANY manufacturer offer cars like these for the US market?
Unless you can answer this, common sense suggests the simplest answer: because such cars are not economically viable at this time.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. They are both economically viable and environmentally necessary
Gasoline was $4.25 a gallon this summer - people will not forget that.

Those prices were real - as was the pain....and Priuses flew off the lots as fast as they could get them.

If the Big Three has those PNGV on the market - they would have sold a pile of them.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Then why aren't they being sold by ANY manufacturer???
"and Priuses flew off the lots as fast as they could get them."

A prius isn't an 80 mpg hybrid diesel though. The Big 3 are able to produce Euro-legal straight diesels (i.e. not hybrids) that get better mpg than the Prius.

These vehicles are not legal for sale in the US.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. The PNGV cars WERE US emissions legal
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 12:38 PM by jpak
The Big Three stupidly concluded they were not "economically viable" and stuck to "economically viable" gas guzzlers.

...and we see the fruits of that logic today - Big Three dealer lots are chockablock with "economically viable" SUVs and light trucks they can't sell at any price.

Detroit fucked up.

Big Time.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. So...if Detroit won't build them, what's stopping Toyota? And VW? And Nissan?
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 12:38 PM by Romulox
Audi?
Subaru?
Citroen?

Or anyone, for that matter? Do you see the gaping holes in your theory yet?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. According to your gaping hole logic - no one in the US would buy a 80-100 mpg car
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 12:42 PM by jpak
I think you are very wrong
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. No, you are completely misrepresenting my point. Right now, a 100 mpg can't be produced
at a price an average American can afford.

If it could, and all that was stopping it was some Big 3 conspiracy, then a foreign manufacturer should be happy to build them.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Well, VW makes a 33mpg diesel Jetta. That's 8mpg better than the non-diesel model.
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 12:43 PM by ContinentalOp
Put an engine like that in the Prius and it would get better mileage than the Prius's current 46. It's not exactly rocket science.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. And when they put a smaller diesel engine on a smaller car it does even better.
Check out this 70mpg VW available in Europe. http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4... There's no reason a hybrid version of that couldn't get up to 80mpg.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. It's a far cry from 80 mpg, let alone 100. nt
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. My big 4 cylinder (2.5l) gets 32 mpg highway. nt
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. The Jetta is a pretty big car with a pretty big engine. Look at the smaller Golf-sized car...
that gets 70. There's no reason why that couldn't get 80-90 if it were made into a hybrid. Plus I tend to think that the numbers for these concept cars are basically marketing numbers. I bet the actual government tests would give lower numbers, as they always do.

And why aren't foreign automakers building these cars? 50 state emission requirements have obviously been a hurdle that was only recently cleared with the new generation of VW & Daimler diesels. The Europeans seem to have been focusing on diesel while Japanese have focused more on hybrids.

The point is American automakers actually were out in front technologically on this and yet they intentionally killed it.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Why don't they sell the 70 mpg Golf in the US?
It doesn't meet US safety/emissions standards, that's why.
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GoesTo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
5. I worked on that. We knew the answers in 1994.
Hybrid was easily understood and fairly low risk even then. There were all sorts of little improvements that could be done and were by Toyota - the flywheel to save braking energy, and of course the electric powered car where the battery was continually charged by a low-power gas motor. The zero-emissions car was far in the future. Bush's insistence on going for a hydrogen car was a way of kicking the can down the road, i.e., putting off any serious action for a decade by mothballing the technology developed. The car companies were just sort of doing what they were asked to do in the 1990s with modest interest in whatever new tech might develop, but mostly just keeping the administration happy by participating. I think they viewed it is a net plus, but a very small one. It was the Bush-Cheney administration's goal to kill this, like killing Kyoto, and I think the car companies just didn't care much one way or the other. A darn shame.

But the logic of the plan - switching technology - has been proven right, so maybe the Obama admin can lead a new PNGV type program and give it more teeth.

No one has much sympathy - nor should they - for the big 3 and the UAW. But this isn't about sympathy. It's about moving forward in the best interest of the country. We should still try something like this again, but do it right.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Agreed
If there is a bailout - there will have to be some major strings attached...
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Wow: "No one has much sympathy - nor should they - for the big 3 and the UAW."
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