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K&R if you think GM should keep Saturn and Pontiac

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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:52 AM
Original message
K&R if you think GM should keep Saturn and Pontiac
I've owned four Saturns, and have found them to be good cars. I got 150,000 miles out of my first one (an SL2), sold the second one (An L-series sedan) and currently have an Ion and a Vue. I've found them to be more reliable than the one Japanese car I owned (a Toyota I bought used). I didn't even realize how unique the Saturn buying experience was until, when I was looking for a small SUV, I went to the local Ford dealership and dealt with a slimy old dinosaur who was smarmy, sleazy, badgering and offensive. Instead of buying the Mercury Mountaineer I test drove, I went over to Saturn and got a Vue.

GM is considering getting rid of Saturn and Pontiac, mainly because they don't make trucks. This seems completely wrong, because one of the reasons they are getting their asses handed to them is because they focused solely on making the "more profitable" trucks and SUVs, and have really abandoned the family sedan. Now, with the G6, G8, Aura and Astra, Pontiac and Saturn have four
really interesting (though very different) products to offer average American consumers, but that apparently means little to executives. Moreover, the top two brands in resale value are--Pontiac and Saturn! The very brands they are considering dumping.

Senator Shelby, with whom I disagree completely on just about every aspect of the automaker bailout, nonetheless had one moment of clarity in this week's testimony, when he said that there was a certain irony that the last time GM tried to reinvent itself, it did so with the creation of the Saturn brand, and now it is trying to remake itself by dumping that very brand.

Anyway, here's a link to a story the NY Times did on Saturn a couple of days ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/business/04saturn.htm...



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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. Saturn yes...Buick, Pontiac, Hummer, GM trucks NO
Chevy makes the same trucks
Cadillac makes different priced cars
Hummer is a no-brainer
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Windy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. Saturn no... this years models are pretty inventive in design. More european.
That would be a DUMB move if you ask me. Pontiac I can understand.
Hummer should go!
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. Saturn, Yes, we are on our third one. Buick, Pontiac and Hummer C U later.
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jakefrep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
4. I agree
I like the new Saturn models better than the old ones. I've been thinking that the Astra would be a good next vehicle for me.

And I like the sportier stuff that Pontiac makes.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
5. Our Saturn is 15 years old and still works very well. Good car.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. Drop everything except Saturn and put all efforts into that line.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. Saturn yes.
I had a Saturn and it was a great car -- I would hope they continue that line.
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. K&R
I love my Sky.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. Its doesn't matter on trucks both produced on same line ....
its a minor styling difference only. They should drop the Esclade, some of the small Pontiac's are based on the Aussie GM platforms but those should, shift over to Chevy. Gutting some of the same models and that old Chevy-Cadillac sales mentality should help getting them on track. An example of what is wrong with GM, there are now 9 models of Corvette from $48-104k.

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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. This AM I heard that the reson they were talking about selling
Saturn wasn't because it wasn't a good car, but because they never made any $$ on them.

As far as Pontiac, Buick, GMC goes, I've always wondered why GM had so many different lines of cars & trucks. Chevy has always been their flagship. Caddy has always been their flagship on the top end, and I think they could be profitable with that smaller product line, but to spend all the extra $$ required to produce those other lines, which IMO are clones of their base is foolish. After all, what's the difference between a Chevy truck and a GMC?
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'd keep Saturn, ditch Pontiac.
Pontiac seems like a damaged brand to me. It used to be the performance division of GM, but lately, it seems to me that it (like Mercury,) as been positioned as the "chick" brand... :shrug:
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Agreed.
I never understood why they killed Oldsmobile and kept Buick and Pontiac.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
35. Especially Buick
The car for folks who think that Mercury is too radical.
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Chick brand???
I'm female (and I don't peep and bobble around in yellow fuzz) and I drive a FORD - not the Mercury.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. My wife also drives a Ford. There's little question that Mercury is marketed primarily to women.
I don't mean to offend anyone, but it's as clear as a perky 20 something saying, "You gotta put Mercury on your list!" followed by a pastel shaded outtro...

On the flip side of that were Toyota's ludicrous John Goodman voiced Tundra ads: "Truckers wanna know if it's still got some truck in it!" Those ads were clearly aimed at macho men.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. yeah. eom
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
34. Actually, the "chick" thing is also a rub on Saturn
Saturn's demographic has always trended female, so much so that my gay brother-in-law has criticized our Saturns as insufficiently masculine (he's always driven Volvos, until recently when, tired of repair bills, he bought a Jeep). Of course, women need to buy cars, too, and Detroit's always been abysmal when it comes to marketing to them, alternating between campaigns that are patronizing and sexist or both.
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blue_onyx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
13. Yes to Saturn, No to Pontiac
I like the Saturn design and would consider them when I eventually buy a new car. Pontiac seems to overlap with Chevy too much and I don't see a need for the brand.

I believe you are wrong that they are getting rid of these two brands because they don't have trucks or SUVs...the both do (Saturn Vue and Pontiac Torrent). Saturn is probably going because they have great cars and yet haven't caught on with the public. I remember reading that the brand has yet to make any money for the company since it started producing cars in the early 90s. Pontiac is a North American brand which makes it easy to get rid of. Buick for example, is big in China and makes the brand a global player in the automotive market.
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Mugweed Donating Member (939 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
14. Keep Saturn, ditch the rest
Maybe the auto manufacturers should be making commercials that inform American drivers that they don't need a 12-passenger Suburban to run across town and fetch groceries, no matter how many children they have.

They make stupid cars because there are tons of stupid people to buy them. These stupid people are good at doing what they're told is right and patriotic. We just need to change the message away from "patroitism = big gas guzzling peice of crap you don't need" the Republicans seem to enforce.

I'm on my 2nd Saturn only because my 1st got hit at 220,000 miles. They no longer made the SW2 and it would have cost more to replace the parts than the car was worth. In all those miles I only had one collapsed motor mount and a leaky water pump (it was an automatic transmission, too). My Ion3 is running great! Maybe they'd make money if that's all people had to choose from....
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jdadd Donating Member (950 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
15. Keep Saturn, and keep it here.....
Edited on Fri Dec-05-08 12:49 PM by jdadd
It's my understanding that some Saturn models are built on Opel platforms. I'd like to see them keep all the manufacturing here in the states. As far as all the brands other than Chevrolet and Chevy truck, Dump em!


Edit;spelling.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
36. Yep, they are a global company
My Vue has something like 75% US manufactured content. Under the hood, I see components from the UK and Germany, and they also sell it with an optional Honda V6 that gets only slightly worse gas mileage than the standard four-cylinder.

They are moving all of the production for one (or maybe both) of the rebranded Opels to the US for 2010, assuming the division survives.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
16. I honestly thought Pontiac was already gone.
They should have been dissolved after they released the POS Fiero on the public roadways.

Saturn seems to be decent though. Given the choice I'd keep that brand around.
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
18. I see a lot of new Saturns in my town where
people have traded in their big SUVs for their new cross models.
I also see a lot of new toyotas

My town for some reasons loves new cars.
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pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. keep pontiac.
dump saturn. heck. make a pontiac saturn.
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Alcibiades Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. Or maybe even merge the divisions
I don't know. I do like the Saturn dealership experience. If they could expand that model to the rest of GM, it might make me reconsider.

They should continue to sell the Aura, Astra and Sky at least under some badge. They are good products.
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Lugnut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
22. I drive a Buick.
My husband drives a Chevy S-10 pickup, my son has a GMC pickup for his business and my daughter drives a Pontiac. We are all satisfied GM owners so I'm sure we could easily adjust to different product lines that met our individual driving needs.

I've known several people who've owned Saturns and nobody I know has any complaints. In fact the Saturns seem to run forever with very few problems.

What I don't understand is the need for a Cadillac SUV when Chevy and GMC offer the same model.
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
23. I'm still driving an 86 Sunbird
that I bought new. Its been a great little car, no major problems but unfortunately with 300,000 km and things happening needs to be honorably retired soon.
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Nightflurry Donating Member (132 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. My first car was a Sunbird
That thing ran great. I actually sold it for more than I paid for it!

Towards the end the electrical stuff was starting to go a bit, but nothing that couldn't be fixed up. When I made a long overdue sparkplug change I couldn't tell the old ones from the new ones. That old bucket ran GREAT.
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
24. Saturns are fantastic cars.
:thumbsup:
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
26. Dumping Saturn? Fuck no! Keeping it ought to be a loan condition
Just bought a used Saturn with 100K+ miles on it, and it runs fine. I miss my dead Honda's better mileage, but the 1997 Saturn gets 30 mpg and is a pretty good ride otherwise.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
27. I'd like to see them keep both Saturn & Pontiac
I had a Saturn - decent car. Now have a Vibe and was hoping to get another Vibe now that they've brought back AWD.

I was an Oldsmobile fan and was sorry they killed that brand. I don't understand how they can keep Buick which in my area seems to have almost no dealers and drop Pontiac and Saturn.

If nothing else they should fold some of the better Pontiac and Saturn models in to Chevrolet and let their good Saturn/Pontiac dealers a chance to add that brand.

I like my Pontiac dealer (they sell other brands not GM as well) cause they have a great Quick Service Department that has kept me for the most part out of the main Service Department. It's great not to have to wait for a service appointment to get majority of service done.
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
28. Buick's not on the chopping block b/c it's a huge seller in Asia
Although I think it would make sense to cut Buick in the the U.S. down to just a couple low-end luxury models and merge their dealerships with Chevy. In China and in Asia, they can sell rebranded Cadillacs as Buicks.

I too would like to see them keep Saturn.

Cut Pontiac, GMC and Hummer. Sell Saab.

That would leave them with (in the U.S.): Chevy, Cadillac, Saturn, and Buick.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
29. Seems we have a consensus. Saturn is a new model auto company and one of the few
things done right in decades by the moribund "management" of GM.
:kick: & R


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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Saturn is a brand. The cars are all close cousins of other GM models. nt
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Median Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
31. Doesn't Make Sense - Only 1 Pontiac Car Is A Top Seller
Also, Saturn has no cars in the Top 20:

RANK VEHICLE 2008 2007 '07 RANK %Chng
1 Ford F-Series P/U 235,924 290,282 1 -18.7
2 Toyota Camry 198,309 193,900 3 +2.3
3 Chevy Silverado-C/K P/U 197,030 265,941 2 -25.9
4 Honda Accord 166,158 153,431 6 +8.3
5 Honda Civic 164,994 137,288 8 +20.2
6 Toyota Corolla 152,308 165,722 4 -8.1
7 Nissan Altima 133,465 114,318 9 +16.7
8 Chevrolet Impala 122,281 144,541 7 -15.4
9 Dodge Ram P/U 112,795 154,143 5 -26.8
10 Ford Focus 105,499 77,732 15 +35.7
11 Chevrolet Cobalt 93,362 79,257 14 +17.8
12 Honda CR-V 89,017 84,464 11 +5.4
13 Toyota Prius 79,675 76,747 16 +3.8
14 Ford Escape 76,966 73,058 17 +5.3
15 Chevrolet Malibu 74,925 59,627 26 +25.7
16 Ford Fusion 73,197 66,260 20 +10.5
17 GM Pontiac G6 71,062 59,063 28 +20.3
18 GMC Sierra P/U 70,765 84,106 12 -15.9
19 Toyota Tundra 66,278 61,113 23 +8.5
20 Ford Econoline/Club Wagon 63,869 80,641 13 -20.8
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
32. Keep Saturn. Kick Pontiac to the curb
My first car was a 1992 piece of shit. It's official make and model was a Pontiac Grand Prix. I would never buy a Pontiac again. I would consider buying a Saturn it was originally my car of choice but well I buy used so that didn't happen. :shrug:

Regards
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-05-08 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
33. I love my '95 Saturn
Best car I ever had next to my slant sixes. I would consider looking at a new Saturn someday.

They would be fools to dump Saturn.
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