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Knowing what you know now, do you believe that Taliban could have given us bin Laden?

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:20 PM
Original message
Poll question: Knowing what you know now, do you believe that Taliban could have given us bin Laden?
Do you think the Taliban could have avoided the invasion of Afghanistan and given us bin Laden?



What do you think today, DU?



( I guess this poll assumes you can assume bin Laden did 9/11 or that Bush was seriously going after him. :think: )
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think if the U.S. couldn't catch bin Laden...
I wouldn't expect the Taliban to be able too.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I was thinking today that the smooshing of the Taliban into al Qaida
was the precursor for smooshing al Qaida into Saddam.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
2. they asked for proof of his involvement, but were never given such proof
being asked to take the US at it's word. They refused to do so w/o evidence, and we then invaded their sovereign nation and killed them.

That's the way I remember it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I didn't remember the proof part.
The guy on the phone in the first OP pic was murdered a few days ago. He was their spokesman.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. yeah, their first response was "show us the proof"
which I remember thinking was a very logical response.

That was before the new barbarianism, though. Now we invade just 'cause we feel like it.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. If the perps had been in Canada or Britain, Canada & Britain would have demanded proof
first before handing them over to the USA.

It's the law, especially when sending people to a death-state nation.

I suppose bUsh would have invaded Canada or Britain then.


Of course America is above any and all laws, being better than everyone else.

And yep, that sure the fuck is sarcasm.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I started thinking about this because there seem to be people who believe
sending troops into Afghanistan now might redress 9/11.

Looking back, I don't think the Taliban had control of bin Laden any more than Baghdad Bob had control of Saddam. But, that's just me.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I agree with you.
The nation that had the most control over OBL was...America.

But shhhh, mustn't let the sheeple know the reality!
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Push poll
How about ; Yes they would have if he went to the Hagee not the U.S. Chimpy could have agreed to that.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Never even occurred to me and changing it now wouldn't be fair.
Did they ever have the choice to give him up to an international court - if they could control him, that is?

Do you believe they had control of him is the question.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yes, They offered him Up to the Hagee
Chimpy said No.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. That still leaves open the question of their being able to "deliver", though.
The impression I get is that the Taliban was sort of like the mob. They had contacts and even, people loyal or indebted or afraid of them, but very little infrastructure.
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lob1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. According to the FBI, Bin Laden isn't wanted for 9/11.
There's NO PROOF Bin Laden was involved.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. That's right. He's not wanted by FBI. But the question is
do you believe the Taliban had command and control?
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lob1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. It seems they would've said if he wasn't in their control, but I don't know.
They acted like they had him, asking for proof before they would turn him over. I don't know why the Taliban would risk war if they didn't know where Osama was. Did the Taliban order Bin Laden to do 9/11? I doubt that, but I'm not convinced Bin Laden was involved. Some proof, and not rumors coming from the Bush gang would be nice.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. It would have been embarrassing for them to say they had no control
over him. Maybe they thought the US would work it out directly with Pakistan?

I don't know he was involved either, but that was the narrative we were all working with at the time.
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
10. The Taliban didn't control Afghanistan
anymore than the current government. So it's doubtful they could go into the region of the country an remove Bin Laden if he was actually there and they wanted to.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Omar had a lot of loyalty in Kandahar. Kabul fell in like five minutes or something.


There were rumors before 9/11 that Omar was trying to rein in bin Laden, too.

August 30, 2000



HIZARAK, Afghanistan (AP) - Suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden sent 400 Arab fighters to the Russian breakaway republic of Chechnya with explosives and weapons to help the war against Russian forces, a military instructor in his organization says.

Western intelligence sources confirm fighters went to Chechnya from Afghanistan, but cannot say whether they were Arab or Afghan.

Associated Press reporters have seen Afghan and Arab fighters in Chechen bands, but none has confirmed a link to bin Laden.

The disclosure comes at a time when Central Asian governments are sounding increasingly worried about Islamic militancy in their countries, and are blaming the Taliban, the Islamic rulers of Afghanistan where bin Laden's Al-Qaida organization is based.

The military instructor in Al-Qaida, who goes by the nom de guerre of Abu Daoud, also reports that bin Laden is under pressure from the Taliban to curtail his activities, and that bin Laden has indicated he would rather quit Afghanistan than give up his war against the West.

http://www.bangla2000.com/News/Archive/International/8-30-2000/news_detail5.html
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. He wasn't theirs to "give"
He was probably sipping tea with Musharraf in Pakistan by the time we demanded they "give" him to us.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Mussharaf nearly got assassinated too many times for me to think
he had anything to do with bin Laden except indirectly.

Mussharaf always seemed pretty much of a hostage himself.

Who IS running Pakistan, anyway?

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gogoplata Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. I want to know why we are sending 30 thousand more men and women
to occupy that country.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
22. It wasn't Osama, it was the pipeline.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Maybe (probably) but the American people were led to believe
the Taliban had a choice about bin Laden. Did they?
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Afghanistan has never been big on obeying the federal government.
Even if Omar wanted to give him up, he'd first have to make sure he gets al Qaeda before al Qaeda gets him.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
23. I hate to cut and paste...
but these articles express my beliefs of what 'may have' happened, way better than I can. The fact that until now, no one has been offered up as bin Laden...dead or alive...is rather astonishing considering how easily that could be done. It's very hard for me to understand what bin Laden expected to gain by the terrorist attacks of 9/11, but who knows? These articles are pretty dated, but nothing has changed the logic they provide.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Central_Asia_watch/Afghanistan_CAsia_Oil.html
Afghanistan, Central Asia, Georgia
Key to Oil Profits
by Karen Talbot
Censored 2003, pp148-163

TALIBAN WANTED MORE
An Argentine oil company, Bridas, was also in the bidding to build a pipeline. The same month Taliban representatives were being given red carpet treatment by Unocal in Texas, another delegation went to Buenos Aires to meet with Bridas executives. There was an intense campaign by Unocal and Washington to outmaneuver Bridas. The Taliban played one company against the other.
The Taliban and Osama bin Laden were demanding, as part of the deal, that Unocal rebuild the infrastructure in Afghanistan and allow them access to the oil in several places. Unocal rejected this demand.
Nevertheless, the Bush Administration held a series of negotiations with the Taliban early in 2001, despite the developing rift with them over the pipeline scheme. Laila Helms, who was hired as the public relations agent for the Taliban government, brought Rahmatullah Hashimi, an advisor to Mullah Omar, to Washington as recently as March 2001.
(Helms is the niece of Richard Helms, former chief of the CIA and former ambassador to Iran.) One of the meetings was held on August 2, just one month before September 11, when Christina Rocca, in charge of Asian Affairs at the State Department, met Taliban Ambassador to Pakistan Abdul Salem Zaef in Islamabad. Rocca has had extensive connections with Afghanistan including supervising the delivery of Stinger missiles to the mujahideen in the 1980s. She had been in charge of contacts with Islamist fundamentalist guerrilla groups for the CIA.
"At one moment during one of the negotiations, U.S. representatives told the Taliban, 'either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs,"' said Jean-Charles Brisard, co-author of Bin Laden, the Forbidden Truth.
When Washington decided to break with the Taliban, they took advantage of the fact that the U.N. had continued to refuse to recognize their government. Then, of course, the Taliban suddenly became more vulnerable after September 11, for "harboring" Osama bin Laden. Thus it became much easier to win international support for bombing them.
Another compelling reason may have been that the Northern Alliance forces, with whom the U.S. would have to join forces, controlled the portion of the country near Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan, whose governments were helping to support the Alliance. This offered convenience for the U.S. military to base troops in those countries. The Northern Alliance consists largely of ethnic Uzbeks and Tajiks. The Taliban is made up of Pashtun tribesmen- along with large numbers from Pakistan, Arab countries, and elsewhere- who came to be trained and to fight in Afghanistan as well as in Chechnya, Kashmir, Bosnia, Kosovo, and former Soviet republics in Central Asia.
-----------------------------------------------------
A remarkable description of CIA operations in Afghanistan can be found in the book, Victory-The Reagan Administration's Secret Strategy that Hastened the Collapse of the Soviet Union. The book carries many boastful accounts by William Casey, director of the CIA under President Reagan. It paints a vivid picture of how Casey, himself, convinced the Saudi Arabians to match CIA funding of the mujahideen, and how all the money, and, training were funneled through the Pakistan Intelligence Service (ISI).
According to the book, "The strategy attacked the very heart of the Soviet system and included ... substantial financial and military support to the Afghan resistance (sic), as well as supplying the mujahideen personnel to take the war into the Soviet Union itself ... campaign to reduce dramatically Soviet hard currency earnings by driving down the price of oil with Saudi cooperation and limiting natural gas exports to the West...
We learn about the quantities of weapons that were delivered-including Stinger missiles and increasingly sophisticated armaments. "Tens of thousands of arms and ammunition were going through...every year" rising to 65,000 tons by 1985. Approximately 100 Afghans living abroad were schooled in the "art of arms shipping." Two-week courses in "anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns, mine laying and lifting, demolitions, urban warfare, and sabotage were offered for thousands of fighters. Twenty thousand mujahideen were being pumped out every year by these schools dubbed 'CIA U' by some wags...



Don't Mess with Unocal
The war against terrorism may really be a battle over oil
by Craig Rosebraugh
Toward Freedom magazine, January 2002
Taliban officials issued two demands to both companies before any agreement could be reached. They wanted Unocal and Birdas to construct an open pipeline, one that could be tapped into from Afghanistan for local consumption. Second, they wanted the companies to get involved in building roads, water supplies, telephone lines, and electrical power lines. While Birdas agreed to meet the demands and build an open pipeline, Unocal refused, preferring a closed pipeline for export only. Birdas and the Taliban initially reached an agreement, but the deal later fell through due to lack of financing.
During the mid-1990s, the Unocal project received strong support from the US government. From 1995-98, especially after the Taliban seized control of Kabul in September 1996, Clinton administration officials actively lobbied Taliban officials on behalf of Unocal. At the time, the US expressed little, if any, concern about the mounting evidence of abuses of women's rights.
Despite an increasing lack of cooperation from the Taliban, Unocal continued to push the project. Testifying before the House US Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific on February 12, 1998, Unocal representative John Maresca discussed the importance of the pipeline project-and the increasing difficulties in dealing with the Taliban. "The region's total oil reserves may well reach more than 60 billion barrels of oil. Some estimates are as high as 200 billion barrels .... From the outset, we have made it clear that construction of the pipeline we have proposed across Afghanistan could not begin until a recognized government is in place that has the confidence of governments, leaders, and our company." A second pipeline was proposed in 1997, this time by the Central Asia Gas Pipeline Consortium, or CentGas, in which Unocal held the major interest. The proposed line would run from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to markets in Pakistan and India. Conflicts emerged again, as Maresca testified to Congress.
"As with the proposed Central Asia oil pipeline, CentGas can not begin construction until an internationally recognized Afghanistan Government is in place."
Even after the 1998 US embassy bombings and Al Qaeda's declaration to "kill the Americans and their allies-civilian and military," Unocal still hoped to see through the pipeline projects. In an August 30,1998, interview with the BBC, Unocal spokeswoman Terry Covington stated that Unocal "believes the project is both economically and technically feasible and can still be carried out once a stable government is in place in Kabul."
Due to the rising concerns of financial backers about the instability of Afghanistan, Unocal pulled out of CentGas in December 1998.
On its Website (www.unocal.com), Unocal claims to have completely dropped the oil pipeline projects between Turkmenistan and Pakistan. But the projects weren't altogether abandoned. An article in the March 23, 2000, Business Recorder, titled "Unocal trying to re-enter Turkmen gas pipeline project," stated that "the US company is in dialogue with the Afghan authorities seeking guaranteed protection for its personnel while working on the Afghani terrain."
Enron, another US-based oil company, also has a strong presence in the region through its involvement in a pipeline project from Turkmenistan to Turkey by way of Azerbaijan and Georgia. Headquartered in Houston, TX, it was the largest contributor to George Bush the junior's presidential campaign, giving at least $550,000 to Bush himself and an estimated $1.8 million to the Republican Party during the 2000 election. As its stock plummeted in October 2001, after an admission that half a billion in debt had been hidden, the company was swallowed by Dynergy, Inc., which is controlled by Chevron-Texaco.
To the US government, the financial interests and political power to be gained within the Middle East and Central Asia regions are extremely important. By ousting the Taliban, which put up so much resistance to US economic interests, it may succeed in installing a puppet regime in Afghanistan, thereby gaining control of oil resources sure to produce billions in revenues.

Craig Rosebraugh is a political activist living in Portland, Oregon. He is a former spokesperson for the North American Earth Liberation Front and can be reached at [email protected] or (503) 3351436.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Central_Asia_watch/Don%27t%20Mess_Unocal.html
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I wonder on what basis the first article says "the Taliban and Osama bin Laden"?
His agenda wasn't necessarily theirs. :shrug:
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I have no idea...
I have not read anything that has explained what the relationship is.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. I found something here...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I like that site . They often have commentary you don't find anywhere else.
In that article, Bacher talks about bin Laden trying to get out of the Taliban's way, though, not acting with them. Hmmm.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. The scenario I am most familiar with...
is that he is a member of a wealthy Saudi family with connections up the wazoo to the Bush Oil Cartel, getting pissed off at the presence of the Americans on Saudi soil, but then somehow hooking up with the CIA to remove Russia from Afghanistan, and then aiding the U.S. with putting the Taliban in power, and then being part of brokering a deal with the very people he wants ousted from the region... and then 9/11, which for the life of me I don't understand how that is supposed to accomplish anything... and on the very same day the U.S. flies the bin Laden family out the country to safety? It's all a bit much.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
29. Hell, we could have probably avoided all of this twenty years ago
But first Reagan and then Papa Bush nixed the idea of giving the Afghan people any sort of aid to rebuild their war after they had defeated the Soviets for us in that little proxy war. Bin Laden repeatedly said that one of his biggest beefs with the US is that we turned our back on Afghanistan after the mujahideen had done our dirty work. Gee, a few billion then to prevent tens of billions of damage and thousands of lives lost.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. It's hard to believe al Qaida in Afghanistan was an accident.
Poppy if not Rayguns knew that Nature abhors a vacuum.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
30. I want the real culprits behind 9/11 brought to justice.
Their heads on pikes will suffice.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
34. They could and would have turned him over IF they had been asked to in an intelligent manner, and
allowed to do so in a form consistent with their values and beliefs and interests. Getting bin Laden was not the US goal, of course, so instead the US chose to insult, threaten and provoke the Taliban. So, in that sense, they made the choice, but their hand was forced.

They offered to turn him and the top dogs over to a Sharia court in another country, conditional on evidence of the crimes. Their affiliation with al Qaeda began with the US, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia importing and funding primarily Wahabi religious zealots, and thus strengthening the factions within the Afghan resistance that shared those extremist views. So the affinity was not only pragmatic but ideological. Further, protecting guests from outsiders is a very deep tradition within Afghanistan, independent of any religious dressing. So successful negotiation would have depended on getting the Ayatollahs within other Islamic countries to endorse the trial process, and well, subsequent history would have been radically different.

As for the practical side (whether they could deliver on the agreement), with the authority of international Islam in general as well as their own organization, they probably could have either convinced bin Laded to turn himself over to the selected Sharia courts, or isolated him from poplar support and taken him (them), or, if all else failed, willingly turn a blind eye and given logistic and intelligence support to a special forces type operation.


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