How Walmart Could Have Avoided Friday's Tragedy - Simple Diagram

[DoctorMyEyes]

As I've said many times in the last two days I TOTALLY blame Walmart for that young man's death. As a Loss Prevention professional - this is why I feel that way:

Pressure builds up in a crowd, physical and emotional pressure. If you're hosting an event that's going to draw a large crowd it behooves you to exercise safe crowd control procedures. The very first thing that should have happened was to control access to the door. You can't have 2000 people pointed straight on at a damn door. You have to route the people through a series of pathways made with portable fencing or stanchions. See in the diagram that using this kind of system alleviates the pressure of people from behind shoving forward towards the door? The red arrows show the path in. The blue arrows show the path out. As soon as the swell of shoppers has passed you can remove these temporary barriers and everything goes back to normal. (The little black dots at the bottom of the rectangle represent the doorway and the black lines represent barriers) As you can see the barriers don't need to weave through the whole parking lot - just a few rows will stop unwanted forward momentum and the rest of the line can form more casually. And yes - I did say line. No more than two abreast, and in fact I usually say I want single file and then let people "get away" with two abreast.

The little green guys represent security - which can be any combination of store security staff, off duty police officers hired for the event, or store managers. They need to have walkie talkie communication and the outside security should be outside well before the doors open. At least an hour before, but best practice is as soon as the line starts to form.

The outside staff talks to the crowd and kinda "works the line" - making sure everyone is in a good mood, is calm, is feeling okay. You don't let people stand around getting nervous and fixated. You play nursemaid, comedian and friend as well as authority. You let people know that there's not going to be any line jumping. That anyone pushing or shoving ain't gonna make their purchase even if they're first to get to it. If you notice any loudmouths talking about how they're going to get their widget and perhaps making the other people in line feel apprehensive you squash that shit right away and remind everyone that they're going to be treated respectfully and we're going to get everyone in in a calm and orderly fashion.

Have you seen the Dog Whisperer? Calm submissive? That's how you want your crowd. You don't want them fixated. If someone is looking too tense you make some casual conversation - "where you from?", "what time did you get here?", "how was your holiday?"

I don't know who put up that "Blitz Line Starts Here" sign, but that was a BIG mistake. If properly trained security was outside that wouldn't have been there. If a store employee put that sign up he can probably kiss his ass goodbye.

Another thing I've seen in other Walmart videos is shoppers running through the doors with shopping carts. WTF!?!? NOBODY on line should have been permitted to have a cart upon entering. NOBODY! The carts should have been dispersed throughout the store so people could pick them up at different points without creating a situation at a central indoor cart corral.

I know this post is long, but I wanted to be clear in explaining what I know. In 20 years I've never been involved in an event that didn't go off as planned - and no one has ever been injured. Walmart however consistently and deliberately ignores proper crowd control procedures. Every Black Friday and every major game system release brings "rioting" at Walmart cause Walmart enjoys the free publicity and hype when it makes the news. They have operated for years with total disregard for their customers and their employees. I hope they pay for this one and pay dearly.

Also - to those that are blaming the shoppers - please don't. In my opinion, from what I've seen and read so far, the worst I can judge them for are being the kind of people who would stand in line all night to get into a Walmart. I don't believe anyone CHOSE their holiday purchase over someone elses life. Individually you probably wouldn't find a single soul in that crowd that would have knowingly or willingly participated in someones death. They were permitted to ferment into a competitive mob fixated on their goal. The people pushing from the back had no idea that they were pushing people onto someone who had been knocked down. The people being pushed over him had no power to stop the mob pushing them forward. And even the people who became fleetingly aware that someone was down probably didn't appreciate the seriousness of the situation or that they could have done anything to assist.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

1. I've been in many a crowd situation and that's exactly how it should be handled.

I was a delegate to the DNC in Denver and let me tell you those were some serious crowds! No one got trampled. Not even Thursday night at Invesco Field. Of course, when you've got Secret Service all over the place, people tend to behave themselves.

[DoctorMyEyes]

2. You were in Denver? I'm so jealous!

But, you make a good point about political rallies. Perhaps that will help more DUers understand - cause while not many of us stood on lines for Black Friday I think a lot of us attended Obama rallies.

Come to think of it, I actually performed a small role in the "crowd control" at the Mellon Arena Pittsburgh rally. I was volunteering at the event and just kinda ended up "doing what I do".

I'll bet most DUers can relate to being routed through a few turns before reaching their rally destinations.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

4. It was amazing! Best week of my life, bar none.

I've attended and volunteered at numerous political rallies too. I watched as Obama events got so big that people were waiting in line for hours, often in lousy weather of some sort. We made sure to bring folks water and chairs if they had trouble standing. All kinds of people in attendance of all ages and very few problems.

[DoctorMyEyes]

13. Wow! Do you have an online photo album somewhere?

I'd love to see some of your pics. It must have been awesome to have a front row seat to history.

And as far as the crowd control at rallies, I should be clear that I don't equate political rally crowds with black Friday crowds. There's a different sense of community and less competition - but, even with that no one took the chance on not having people working the lines, explaining the rules, checking on well-being. Standard stuff, really.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

26. Do you have a Facebook account? If so, pm me and I'll invite you to be my friend. nt

[DoctorMyEyes]

67. No facebook, sorry. n/t

[hlthe2b]

42. Yes.. I was one of the 100,000 "sardines" packed in Civic Center

Park in Denver at one of his last rallies before the election... I can assure you that I would have been powerless against a crowd surge from behind and I certainly could not have stopped myself from pushing over the persons in front of me, had those behind pushed hard enough.

[Withywindle]

80. I agree. I was in Grant Park on election night and that was insane...but safe!

The crowd was huge, lines to go through security seemed eternal (and I was in the ticketed section - it must have been even more so in the open parts). Everyone was eager to get a good spot. You could see it on TV - when a section of the barricades was opened, people ran like the marathon shot was fired.

But it was SAFE. We knew security was tight, and we also know it was going to be a joyous occasion we didn't want marred with bad incidents. You could even see lots of people giving way to disabled and elderly folks and families with little ones - and you know, if you've ever been on the Chicago El at rush hour, you know this is not necessarily natural behavior. But it was well-managed, and the historic atmosphere encouraged good will and generosity.

[grace0418]

125. I was there too and I keep describing it as "something out of a cheesy movie." LOL!

But seriously, the atmosphere was so joyful that it almost seemed fake. But it was real! Amazing night, and VERY well-managed.

[tularetom]

3. You nailed it - they encourage this kind of scene and act amazed when something like this happens

At the very least they are guilty of criminal negligence in the death of their employee. Maybe worse since they knew something like this was going to occur.

[SidDithers]

5. Happy to be the 5th rec...

very good post.

Sid

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. Best post on the WalMart tragedy I've seen

I appreciate the graphic and the expertise behind making it. Hope it gets 100 recs.

[ColbertWatcher]

7. Thank you. I am sick of posting what little I found on the internets about crowd control.

It's nice to have someone who knows what they're talking about show everyone how it's done.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Kick and rec.

[DoctorMyEyes]

8. You're welcome Colbertwatcher!

You and I have been almost tag team posting over this in different threads for the past two days. The frustration of not being able to communicate what simple crowd control should look like finally inspired me to open photoshop and try saying it with a picture.

Thanks for the rec!

[ColbertWatcher]

9. I'm glad you did!

I was thinking of mocking something up about how it went wrong, but I have to admit I am not an expert and can only guess.

All I know is those front doors at that Valley Stream Wal-Mart without a line with so many people really bothered me.

Thank you again for posting!

(EDITED TO TRY TO FIX MY GRAMMAR)

[conscious evolution]

163. I appreciate it also.

Pictures do speak a thousand words.
What walmart did was criminally negligent.

[TheCowsCameHome]

10. Excellent solution, but I doubt WalMart

or any other big retailer would be willing to foot the bill for the additional safety measures.

Their focus is on trimming expenses, unfortunately.

[DoctorMyEyes]

15. Ummm... I work for a big retailer

Actually my 3rd big retailer in my career and this is where I learned this stuff. Everybody who has an event that calls for these measures do exactly this. Walmart is the exception, not the rule and that's why I hold them responsible.

It's not like they've never used crowd control because they've never had a problem in the past. They have problems at EVERY event and they did nothing to address the cause.

[silverojo]

83. Well, I've traveled and shopped in many states

And I've never seen a setup like this for a sale. It's just people in sleeping bags, camped out and ready to stampede.

Your "big retailers" must be for very ultra-chic stores. Because where we common people shop (K-Mart, Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.), the only security is inside the stores, to prevent shoplifting.

[DoctorMyEyes]

111. See post 102

for video examples of Best Buy, Circuit City and Target using very non-ultra chic crowd control techniques.

[KittyWampus]

17. actually, they could use their shopping carts to form those pathways.

[TheCowsCameHome]

23. Read OP's paragraph 7

I think the presence of shopping carts would become part of the problem.

[KittyWampus]

24. I mean all stacked into one another not lined up seperately

:)

[jmowreader]

89. You'd have to padlock them together

If you just made a big line of unsecured shopping carts, people would pull them off and use them--as battering rams.

[yardwork]

110. Then Walmart needs to be sued. We need to make it more expensive to kill people.

[Danger Mouse]

11. I think this post is excellent but I disagree with you on one point...

I think that it's true that Walmart is at fault for the situation, but I don't think the shoppers are free of blame as well. In their greed, they participated in the mob mentality that lead to the man's death. They are not fully innocent.

[ColbertWatcher]

16. Have you seen any of the crowd control links?

Here are some:

1. the first one is from a security company that specializes in crowd control (http://www.crowddynamics.com/Main/Crowddisasters.html). Pay special attention to the section called "Stampedes."

2. this next one is a memorial site for people who died in Hillsborough stadium in 1989 (http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/buildup1.shtm)

3. this final link is a DU link to some pictures of the Wal-Mart store in Valley Stream before and after Damour's death. (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4554275&mesg_id=4554814)

[Danger Mouse]

20. I never tried to absolve Walmart of blame. Not in the least. They created the situation.

But the stampeders all have blood on their hands.

[ColbertWatcher]

21. Did you see the link for Hillsborough? n/t

[Danger Mouse]

27. Interesting.

Especially the media reaction.
Doesn't change my mind, though.

[ColbertWatcher]

29. I vaguely remember hearing about Hillsborough when it happened.

I posted the link not to change your mind, but to open it.

Media reaction? Here is the BBC, who were there to televise the match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a16gV5ZQ8g0

[DoctorMyEyes]

38. That was a horrible scene

That's the first time I've ever seen that video. I vaguely remember this incident. Horrible. And like Walmart - totally avoidable with some proper planning and common sense from the responsible officials.

[ColbertWatcher]

54. What's sad is that no one knew anything might be wrong until the ambulance arrived.

There's another video with more pictures edited to a song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx9N4dv5yPk).

[silverojo]

84. Hmm...too few turnstiles for too many soccer hooligans

It's a well-known fact that soccer fans are about as uncivilized as the human race can get, this side of prison.

OK, so there weren't enough turnstiles...so you're saying that excuses the people from behind, who were pushing forward? Come on, those people were to blame, just as the Wal-Mart thugs are.

In many recent elections, there have been too few voting booths to handle the turnout. But did the people in line start pushing forward and harming others? There was no "crowd control"--people were just standing in line, waiting to vote. You didn't have elaborate security measures in place outside the polling location.

Why?

Because the voters were civilized. The soccer fans and the Wal-Mart shoppers weren't.

End of story, and quit trying to absolve these murderers for what they've done.

[ColbertWatcher]

87. No one is trying to absolve Wal-Mart for the murder.

I made the same mistake you did when I heard it was a soccer game. I also thought they were soccer hooligans, but they weren't. They were fans going to see a soccer match. The problem with the Sheffield Wednesday stadium was the type of seating, not the behavior of the fans. 96 people died.

Just a few links for you:

1. the first one is from a security company that specializes in crowd control (http://www.crowddynamics.com/Main/Crowddisasters.html). Pay special attention to the section called "Stampedes."

2. Wikip*dia link for "compressive asphyxia" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressive_asphyxia#Compressive_asphyxia)

3. BBC's coverage of the Hillsborough disaster as it happened (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a16gV5ZQ8g0) More pictures in this edited video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx9N4dv5yPk)

[yardwork]

112. The people in the crowd could just as easily have been killed. They are not murderers.

Do you seriously think that people deliberately killed a man just because he was in their way? It's more likely that the crush of the crowd pushed the people in the front literally through the doors and over everything in their way. When this happens, the people at the front have no choice but to try to stay on their feet and keep moving. If they fall down or try to stop they will be crushed themselves. The people at the back have no idea what is happening, and besides, it doesn't take much individual forward pressure to create tons of pressure by the time its multiplied to the front of the line.

It's simply physics.

[ColbertWatcher]

146. "It's simply physics." Yes, that's exactly what it is! n/t

[Two Americas]

49. self-contradictory

If it was a stampede, as it seems, then by definition almost all of the people are innocent. Would you say that when a boat goes down, that all passengers "have blood on their hands?"

[conscious evolution]

164. No more than if they had been a herd of elephants or cattle

Once caught up in the herd or mob rules mentality all rational thought goes out the window.
Walmart created an atmosphere that brought out a primal instinct,fear,in people in the worst way.People are literally in a fight or flight mode in such situtations.

[Hippo_Tron]

30. What about the ones in the back of the crowd who probably didn't trample the guy?

[Danger Mouse]

31. They were pushing forward. They killed the guy just as much as the ones in front.

[Hippo_Tron]

33. Do you know that for a fact?

Usually when I'm at the back of a crowd I don't even bother pushing forward because I know that I'm going to be last no matter what.

[Danger Mouse]

34. Who knows? That'll be up for the investigators to decide.

[nadine_mn]

104. I disagree,,,

I have been in the middle of a crowd, jammed in (remember the days at concerts where the floor was open - no seating, just stand and hope you don't have to pee).

It can be terrifying, one moment its crowded, but fine, the next moment there can be a surge that moves you foward whether you want to or not. So I have been behind people pushing them, not because I was trying to get to the stage, but because I had a few hundred people behind me pushing me forward. Once you are in the middle you are trapped, there is no way to get out or move against it.

[Two Americas]

52. they may not have realized the danger

Seemingly subtle pressure from the rear can cause big trouble in the middle of the crowd.

No one person in the crowd can do anything, that is why crowd control measures are essential.

[Two Americas]

45. not so

It only takes a very few to cause these stampedes. "The shoppers" are not guilty of anything, and it has nothing to do with "mob mentality." When you are caught in the middle of a stampede, your mentality is completely irrelevant.

[Common Sense Party]

63. How many thousands of stores does WalMart have? And they all

had Black Friday early a.m. sles (at least here in the U.S.). They all had people lining up early. They all had more shoppers than they had doorbuster merchandise.

And yet this was the only store that had a fatality.

How can this be? What conditions were so different at THIS one N.Y. location, I wonder?

[ColbertWatcher]

69. Good question.

I'd like to see someone conduct a full investigation into Wal-Mart's company policies!

[DoctorMyEyes]

70. Their luck ran out at this location

Don't think there weren't Walmart skirmishes nationwide last Friday. Or last year, or the year before.

[Common Sense Party]

72. And don't think they don't happen at other stores.

Jerks are jerks, no matter which store they happen to be in.

[JHB]

113. Right. Just Google "Walmart Stampede" videos...

...the top ones will be from this incident, but there are plenty from previous years at other locations.

And that's just videos available on the web. Corporate Walmart has plenty of security video from every location.

They know what to expect and what the potential problems were. It was just cheaper to do nothing.

[RaleighNCDUer]

137. And of course, the videos where there were stampedes which did

not result in injuries or death will never see the light of day. In any of them, and there no doubt were many on Black Friday, there could have been similar tragedies but by sheer luck, nobody tripped and fell in front of the mob, nobody lost their balance, nobody hesitated at the wrong moment.

What is remarkable is not that this happened - what is remarkable is that it has not happened more often.

[ColbertWatcher]

147. Exactly. n/t

[Bluzmann57]

119. You are correct

I remember a couple of years ago hearing about fisticuffs at a local walmart line on "black friday". I have no link as it happened a couple of years ago, but I do remember it being mentioned on the local evening news and local newspaper. Walmart needs to be held responsible and it needs to hurt their bottom line.

[Gormy Cuss]

127. Because the situation could have occurred at any other store without crowd control.

There was at least one injury at a WalMart down the road from the Valley Stream store too, according to the NY Post. There was an injury at the Walmart featured in the Youtube video from last year. I would wager that there a lots of mostly minor injuries when people are knocked down, stepped on or over, and pushed into objects each time such sales are promoted, but because nobody died it doesn't make the news. The chain's luck ran out in Valley Stream.

[Sherman A1]

86. I agree with you

Wal Mart bears the ultimate responsibility, but the shoppers are not blameless. I will tell you that this opinion will generally get you some rather rude responses (at least it has for me in other threads on the topic). And while I don't have much loss prevention experience, I do have 35 years in retail to base my opinion upon.


:thumbsup:

[Liberal_in_LA]

12. K & R

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. K and R --

tragic situation. unavoidable by each individual, perhaps.

[sandnsea]

18. "As a Loss Prevention professional"

Lots of people have posted very similar information. It's funny how that magic word, professional, drives away the dissent. And I agree with you, there is a reason we've developed line and crowd management strategies over the years. The only thing we don't know is what Walmart might have had in their policies & procedures, and who exactly did what where, like putting up that sign.

[ColbertWatcher]

39. I really don't have a problem with the sign, since most people probably didn't even see it.

I have a problem with the lack of crowd control and the fact that there were at least 2 (possibly 3) entrances converging into one space and no security to be seen anywhere.

[blondeatlast]

115. Even at a sidcounter homemade signs are strictly forbidden.

Eeverything has to go through a supervisor for a reason.

That sign can--and will be--used as evidence. And it should.

[DoctorMyEyes]

48. I'm interested in learning what their handbook says

I'd really like to know what they've put in their procedures. And wonder if they have some kind of written CYA policy that they actually discourage in practice. Do you know what I mean? Those "wink and nod" kind of procedures?

Cause if they have a good plan on paper I'd be very suspicious of why they have a systematic company-wide failure to comply.


I suppose we'll be learning more in the coming months.

[ColbertWatcher]

61. Have you seen the Elk City, Oklahoma video from the same day?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw18_16AGv4

One guy opening the door.

[Common Sense Party]

68. But there were two doors. Must have had two guys, one at each.

[ColbertWatcher]

71. Good point.

Still not sufficient for a crowd that big.

Looks like it's company policy to put one guy at each door.

[Common Sense Party]

73. I don't know that having two or three guys per door would change much.

Just more people in the mob's way.

[ColbertWatcher]

76. Not inside the door. Outside the door, like the OP said. n/t

[DoctorMyEyes]

75. The person shooting the video actually provided a service

The person who shot the video and spoke with the shoppers was actually performing a "working the line" function for Walmart. While Walmart apparently didn't have anyone outside and didn't set up any procedure beyond "Lure them in and unlock the doors" this guy is engaging people, getting them to laugh, helping them to feel like "we're all in this together" rather than "we're all in competition with each other".

Granted they didn't look like a rowdy crowd of an overwhelming size - but, he was doing a nice job keeping everyone feeling good.

edited to correct some of my spelling errors.

[ColbertWatcher]

78. I didn't think of that, but you're correct. n/t

[tblue37]

134. People are there with toddlers! nt

[WolverineDG]

19. I bought one of my Harry Potter books at WalMart

I had driven by Barnes & Noble first, but there was a huge crowd surrounding the doors, spilling out into the parking lot. We ended up at Wal Mart instead, just a few minutes after midnight when the book was going on sale. This store had a special Harry Potter line & even though it was by then empty outside, we were still funnelled through it by 2 employees in the parking lot who asked us if we were there to buy the book. "Just follow the line in, stay within the ropes, & it will lead you straight to the book, then to the checkout." Sure enough, it did. We were in & out in about 10 minutes, most of that spent in line waiting to pay. Worked like clockwork. We drove back past the B&N, & people were still in the parking lot without books.

So if someone at a podunk Walmart in the middle of nowhere can figure that out for a Harry Potter release, why couldn't they have done the same for this store on Black Friday?

dg

[MessiahRp]

22. This is about how Best Buy handles it...

It's MUCH slower (In 2006, I got in line at 3am and was in line until 9am... didn't get anything from the "door busters" list) BUT nobody was remotely close to getting hurt... everyone ended up in a line and if you wanted something from multiple departments you would have to hop from one line to another... even so there was never chaos.

I worked two Black Fridays at Wal-Mart and they never once bothered to do any sort of crowd control. They called their endcaps with the special items, "Blitz caps" and called the whole rush a "Blitz" which sort of sets the mentality.

People rushed in, rammed carts into each other for items and in one instance I had to call the police as two men got into a fist fight over a Razor scooters that resulted in a bloody broken nose.

Wal-Mart's security needs to set up crowd control and be ready for this.

I do not believe the store for a SECOND when they claim they had cops and security on hand to handle the crowd. Security camera shots prove this was just not so and I think they know they're going to be sued off their ass.

Rp

[ColbertWatcher]

28. Cops were called before 3 a.m.

When they finished doing their job, they left the store to Wal-Mart and their imaginary security.

Wal-Mart has stated they had "additional" security, but made no mention of any crowd control.

It is safe to assume when Wal-Mart said "security" they meant theft prevention and not crowd control.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

25. Among other things

the beauty of your relatively simple solution is that it diffuses the kinetic energy of the crowd. Under your scenario, the people in the back can't exert the mass pressure on the front that was the case at Valley Stream.

While marketing itself may be a complex web of psychosocial manipulations, retail really isn't rocket science. I can't imagine that those portable, nylon-strapped retractable mazes are more than a couple of thousand dollars, if that.

It didn't matter, though, did it? Wal-Mart was actively engaged in building buzz, capturing some free PR and advertising and creating the mob that's now being blamed for the young man's death. Where I call from there's a phrase for that: Incitement to Riot, Public Nuisance, Disturbing the Peace, etc.

Wal-Mart's idea of Risk Management or, as you put it "Loss Prevention," is to make sure some kid doesn't slip out of the store with an unpurchased bag of Cheetos. It doesn't extend to creating a safe environment for its invitees for business purposes. Wal-Mart cares little for its customers and less for its workers.

[Sanctified]

32. Interesting Diagram what would you make the pathways out of?

Because I am trying to picture what you could use other than maybe a metal cattle corral that could contain 2,000 people who want to get inside a store as fast as possible. In fact they pushed so hard they actually damaged the doors upon the opening when they trampled the guy.

Now you can blame Walmart but I blame the mob and I blame them because there were crowds like this at almost every store in the US on the day after Thanksgiving but this was the only crowd that trampled a man to death.

[KittyWampus]

35. Introducing those barriers and pathways from the get-go has a psychological impact

as would having crowd control staff outside monitoring the situation.

It makes it obvious the store expects orderly conduct and will demand it.

And the only reason those other mob scenes at other Walmarts didn't result in deaths or injuries is sheer LUCK.

[MiniMe]

36. I thought about this, and the line things at banks would work

People are conditioned by them, and I think it would work.

[TheCowsCameHome]

41. Unless there is a run on the banks...

I just had to say that...........sorry.

:wow:

[TheCowsCameHome]

46. wrong slot, sorry

[DoctorMyEyes]

51. Yep! As simple as that!

It doesn't have to be anything heavy duty. The ropes that banks use, or those plastic chains that hang between stanchions are enough to cue people in on what's expected. I think crowds are actually reassured by these kinds of devices - that there's not going to be a survival of the fittest free for all.

With a few security people walking the line and talking to people - making sure any potential problems are nipped in the bud makes all the difference.

[nashville_brook]

you are right. fences and barriers are far beyond our ability to comprehend.

there is no hope, and this is the best of all possible worlds.

[DoctorMyEyes]

43. Any number of widely available products

http://www.inlinebarricades.com/

You've missed the point, I think. You don't have to contain 2000 people - you have to create an orderly and controlled entry path at the approach to the door. It needs to make a couple of turns and not run straight at the doors. There would only be a couple hundred, max, moving through the run at any one time. The line getting into that can snake around the building or down the block and is a much more casual line.

The reason they pushed so hard on the doors is because Walmart allowed a swell of people to spread out along the face of the door with pressure from the crowd behind pushing them forward.

Their doorway crowd was shaped like a funnel. You want a snake, not a funnel. And it's only luck that this hasn't happened before with the way Walmart runs their events. The potential for an identical tragedy occured at Walmarts across the country.

[Two Americas]

57. false premise

The barriers outlined in the OP prevent the confusion and panic that can occur in a crowd. The doors were broken because of the thousands of pounds of pressure from the crowd, not by a volitional act by anyone. If the line is zig-zagged as in the illustration, people will be pointed 180 degrees from the doors, and each zig will have people pointed 180 degrees from the people in each zag. It would be very difficult for anyone who DID want to intentionally start a stampede to do so under those conditions, since aggressive actions would tend to disperse, not concentrate and focus the crowd (and the force) on the doors.

[Berry Cool]

37. Very smart plan, very wise post.

An oasis of common sense and thoughtfulness in a vast desert of emotionality. Thank you.

[hlthe2b]

40. Excellent.... I've been reading on strategies and tactics of

crowd control (stampede avoidance) but your brief post is the most clear I've seen. THis is not a new phonomenon as we've tried to tell people who desperately want to 1. defend/absolve/acquit WalMart (why, I have no clue) and 2. blame individuals within the crowd for the death.

[RiverStone]

44. What do you think of this statement from Walmart?

We expected a large crowd this morning and added additional internal security, additional third party security, additional store associates and we worked closely with the Nassau County Police. We also erected barricades. Despite all of our precautions, this unfortunate event occurred.

"Our thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the deceased. We are continuing to work closely with local law enforcement and we are reaching out to those involved."

http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_(A_to_Z)/Stocks_W/threadview?m=tm&bn=20003&tid=661204&mid=661204&tof=9&frt=2

Given your excellent review of how to prevent such a tragedy, do you buy this explanation?:shrug:

[DoctorMyEyes]

53. I didn't see any barricades

I didn't see any barricades in those pictures. I saw a "Blitz line starts here" sign on the wall. And if they had all that extra security available why was a temporary maintenance worker put in front of the door?

I call bullshit on their statement.

[ColbertWatcher]

79. The link is messed up. Does the article really say "additional internal security?" n/t

[alfredo]

47. You always engage a line in retail. You don't want anybody to feel ignored.

If they feel ignored they leave. One disgruntled customer can poison a whole line.

[DoctorMyEyes]

55. Exactly!

Sometimes security is actually a lot like customer service in making sure that people are not feeling apprehensive, over-excited, aggressive, fearful, etc. You have to control the "vibe" or the whole thing can go to shit.

[alfredo]

59. Retail is show business.

[TheCowsCameHome]

50. If retailers didn't help create a frenzy

by having a VERY limited supply of certain deeply-discounted items this wouldn't even be an issue.

It doesn't take much to stir up a mob with visions of scoring a real cheap flat screen..........

And if there was plenty of everything to go around these people wouldn't have to be up all night waiting to part with their money.

[DoctorMyEyes]

60. I too hate the "limited supply" crap

I think at this point though, everyone recognizes it for what it is and anyone who participates in these all night lines know what they've signed on for. If they're not first or very nearly first they've got a snowballs chance in Hell and it's really just a con to get you to come in and get the registers ringing early. For the most part these shoppers would be better off buying a lottery ticket and crossing their fingers.


I'm lucky enough to work for a store now that doesn't pull these kinds of stunts or have "loss leaders". The only time we have the all-nighters waiting for a "limited supply" of something is when it truly is a limited supply of a new product, like a game system. And in that case we are up front with how many we have and if it's 25, we print up 25 tickets and hand one per person to the first 25 people in line. Many times people continue to wait even if they don't have a ticket. I guess they're hoping one of the first 25 will suddenly change their mind. Or have their credit card denied. :shrug:

[riderinthestorm]

56. This is excellent. K & R, but I always wonder, how can you not realize you are stepping on a person?

Honestly, how the fuck do you step on someone and then just keep on running?

Whenever I hear of trampling episodes, I have a gag reflex as I think of the people who had to physically step all over the bodies... surely that "brake reflex" would start to cause some sort of slow up (like a car crash scene), and a natural "pause" would ensue as people stopped stepping on them?

(I know, so perhaps I'm weird that way but I can't help thinking of it). In fairness to my weirdness, I offer my expertise as a horsewoman. Horses will NOT step on a fallen human or other living creature like themselves, and will go to extraordinary efforts to avoid stepping on them as has been documented on film. Native Americans used this technique quite effectively during warfare by burying themselves on strategic paths and when their enemies would cross the path, they would spring out of the earth causing the horses to bolt, jump or stop - thereby throwing the rider (and creating a better strategic situation for the buried "attacker" to wage warfare).

My gut instinct would be to avoid stepping on a living (or dead?) body.

It seems inconceivable that crowd antipathy towards stepping on someone wouldn't have triggered some kind of natural halt to the stampede.

[Two Americas]

64. you can't help it

People do stop when they see someone on the ground, and then they get knocked over, too. As people come up to the fallen people, they see them when it is too late and there is no way to communicate that back to the rest of the crowd.

I am thinking that people need to have experienced this to fully appreciate what happens, and how no one has any options. It happens very quickly. There is a tremendous amount of force involved.

[defendandprotect]

58. You know, we used to have regulations in stores that covered possibility ...

of need for emergency exiting by customers ... fire, etc.

At that time, there was no blocking of entryways with displays or other

impediments. Direct access to escalators -- up or down.

I guess all the stores have sprinklers now, but I still think sensible rules.

Ergo, I find your diagram a maze if anyone had to do it in dark with smoke

abounding. Looks dangerous to me.

Edited to add ... I was presuming actual physical barriers; possibly you

simply mean directional pathways?


I'm not that familiar with this tragedy -- but they also, IMO, endangered lives

of customers. We need to have a plan which protects everyone -- entering,

leaving or working in store.

[DoctorMyEyes]

66. Unless the parking lot is on fire

It's not a diagram of a funhouse - no one is "trapped inside" in case of fire.

[conscious evolution]

165. You would never ever do this at exits.

This diagram is for entry.Two altogether differant scenarios.

[Blue Diadem]

62. Thank you! Your diagram is what I envisioned.

Very similar to what I've seen used to control the hundreds of people when they are waiting for a ride at Cedar Point.

I'd also like to see the ticket/coupon idea (that I've read about here) implemented and given out in order of arrival. It would cut out the chaos that can take place as customers, once inside the doors rush and hit each other with carts while attempting to get to the merchandise that's on special. That way, maybe some older people and those with physical disabilities could participate if they wanted, without fear of being run down.

[Two Americas]

65. k and r

Excellent. Thank you.

[jeff30997]

74. K&R

Thanks.Very informative post.

[ekwhite]

77. I'm proud to recommend this post

This is one of the best posts I have seen on DU in weeks. The graphic clearly illustrates what should be done. If they can do this at Best Buy or your local theater, why not at Wal-Mart? This tragedy could have been prevented with a few off-duty police officers and a few stanchions.

[Lucian]

81. Walmart never does things that makes any sense.

I should know. I work at one.

[silverojo]

82. With all due respect, this was a very different situation

I understand where your plan would be good for, say, lining people up to attend a concert. That's because the people already have their tickets, and don't need to push ahead to get a better seat.

A Black Friday sale is very different.

Let's be serious about how retailers do security. Look at your diagram. How many stores do all this on Black Friday? Why is everyone acting as if Wal-Mart is the only store where people stampede through the doors. Have you seen Best Buy? Circuit City? EVERY major retailer? They have no portable fences, as you're suggesting here. Just look up "Black Friday" on YouTube, and you'll see how many stores have the same stampedes. So why is Wal-Mart suddenly wrong for handling things EXACTLY the way other major retailers do? Just because we have a beef with their other policies? It'd be one thing if other stores DID have security set up as you suggest, and Wal-Mart failed to do so. But that's obviously not the case.

Secondly, do you seriously believe that THREE unarmed guards standing outside could do any better than the Wal-Mart employees did? You couldn't even stop high school students from stampeding to the cafeteria or the gym with just three guys. You'd need a helluva lot more manpower on the outside, if you're going to control so many people.


I've been caught in terrifying crowds. I've been to rock concerts and other events where there was pushing and shoving, but nobody was EVER trampled, let alone killed.

But the worst I was in was the time President Carter came to my hometown. Moments after I shook the President's hand, the press caught sight of him and stormed toward him--they thought he was going to come out the other door of the large building, so they'd lost sight of him. When they came running, my arm got caught between two HUGE guys carrying video cameras, and I was dragged a full city block. That's far longer than going through a Wal-Mart doorway.

In that time, I did my damndest not to step on anyone else's foot--if I had, my ankle would have been broken. None of the press people stepped on me, either. They were hell-bent on getting coverage of Carter, just as hell-bent as the shoppers were at Wal-Mart.

The difference?

The press people were aggressive, but civilized. When they saw what had happened, they helped me get out of the crowd. I emerged from that terrifying incident completely unharmed.

So please do not tell me not to blame the stampeders who killed this man. THEY ARE MURDERERS. QUIT COVERING FOR THEM! I know first-hand what it's like to be caught up in a stampede, so please don't tell me how golly-gee-willikers, you just can't help but stomp a man to death. These people pushed so hard on the doors, that they left mangled metal crunched into the shape of an accordion. This is not a typical crowd of shoppers.

There's not much you can do to stop a thug mentality. But ALL retailers (not just Wal-Mart) are to blame for creating these dangerous conditions.

Any time you have first come, first served sales of short duration and limited quantities, there are going to be injuries. Why do you think festival seating at concerts is so controversial? Because it encourages aggression and unruliness in a crowd, and people get hurt.

Do I blame Wal-Mart? Yes, as much as every other retailer that has "doorbuster" sales. You can't force hundreds of people to shop for 4-5 hours, without things getting ugly. They should have sales that span the entire weekend, so people can shop at their leisure...just as people do all throughout the year. The fact that these things only happen on Black Friday are proof that it's these sales that create dangerous situations. Otherwise, these incidents would happen all year long.

So yes, Wal-Mart and all the other retailers are to blame. But I also blame people who are so selfish and unfeeling, with their "get what I want at all costs" mentality. When an HDTV is more important to someone than an injured man lying at your feet, that's one sick person.

Even sicker? While the injured man was being given CPR, there were people around GIGGLING AND JOKING. Search for the YouTube video (someone posted a link to the original CBS video here last night), and see for yourself. Did Wal-Mart make these people laugh and joke around while paramedics attended this man? Hell, no!

But here's where I blame Wal-Mart, a point that's sailing over so many heads: Wal-Mart should have called the police when they saw the crowd was getting so frightening. Security guards, my ass--they needed police to get these thugs under control.

I blame these evil, murdering "shoppers" with every fiber of my being. Maybe the law won't punish them, but what goes around comes around. You can't live your life that way, and not have it come back to bite you in the ass.

[Karenina]

88. I'm reading "issues" which go beyond this incident...

[Fumesucker]

90. So out of all the crowds at all the Black Friday sales across the country?

This particular crowd just happened to be made up exclusively of would-be murderers?

I'm not a statistician, but that sounds remarkably unlikely to me.

The reason these sales are sometimes referred to by the stores themselves as "doorbuster sales" is because of the well known tendency for crowds to push forward as a group which has in the past lead to broken doors on stores.

"Blitz line starts here".

The original meaning of Blitz being "lightning", not exactly a calm, orderly, rational sort of imagery.

[blondeatlast]

116. As a retail veteran (Targetcorp, both Target and it's upscale

cousins) I can say that the handmade sign is absolutely forbiddn by most retailers. everything has to be approved by at least a lower level middle manager.

A handmade sign is the kind of thing one at least gets a warning about; it's only done in the most critical of instances (indicating an unexpected store closing for an event such as this, for instance).

and that phrasing is so disrespectful and inciteful that my ex-employers would have seen to it that manager would never carry keys again, even ifs/he didn't know about it.

[Fumesucker]

126. My wife has been a retail manager for many years..

I asked her this morning and she absolutely blamed the company and/or management for what happened, said they allowed the situation to get out of hand.

There have been a couple of posts that claimed "Blitz" is a word Walmart management uses, whether this is true or not I have no idea.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

97. your point about the difference between what happened here and

a concert/sporting event where there are tickets and a known "place" when the person got in is the key to all of this.

The core of the problem was that everyone wanted to get in first. Everyone. If a game of concert had not started yet -
there is no motivation to get in first. Lining people up in a more orderly fashion, would have helped, but does not
take away the motivation from wanting to get in first - which propels people. I suppose the reason for this would be
that people were afraid that supplies would run out. Walmart could diffuse some of this by avoiding any rewards for
being first or instituting a raincheck policy of some sort.

But, I disagree with the premise that the shoppers are totally to blame. As someone else said, an individual in a mob
has no control over what the overall mob does. It's not like someone in front can't turn around and say "stop pushing"
and it would miraculously happen.

[eShirl]

99. "I've been to rock concerts and other events where there was pushing and shoving, but nobody was

EVER trampled, let alone killed."

You do know, however, that there HAVE been rock concerts where people WERE trampled, *to death*, right?

[clear eye]

100. So you claim since all stores do it (wrong), the shoppers, not the retailers are

responsible. Firstly, no matter how long you go on about it, and how many bold letters you use, other posters above say from their firsthand experience, you're factually wrong. See, for example, the post in this thread from the shopper at a Best Buy http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4564262&mesg_id=4564580

Secondly, as explained by others who have been in stampede situations, as well as by people who have worked crowd control, it takes only a relative few, let's say 5%, of people pushing from within the back half of the crowd to create an irrestible momentum for the rest. Wal-Mart has had many other ugly situations around these sales in the past that only resulted in injuries, not deaths. Knowing, as they did from experience, that there are going to be a small proportion of anti-social bruisers in the group, there is just no question that they are primarily responsible. You seem incapable of learning from anything any of the posters on this and the other threads about this incident write about their firsthand knowledge. BTW, how do you propose to identify the few who were actively pushing to prosecute them?

As for calling the police when it became obvious that all hell was breaking loose (~4:45am according to the Newsday story), not only would that have been too late to prevent the disaster, the choice would have to have been made by the store manager who knew that in all likelihood it would have led to his getting fired. Just picture how it would have played out:

No preventative measures were taken so the crowd has started to surge forward in what looks like the beginning of a stampede. If the manager wanted a real response, he would have had to tell the Nassau PD that he had a riot on his hands. It is likely that the necessary police could not have been assembled, briefed, equipped and transported before too late. Let's say miraculously the PD was able to scramble personnel before the door broke. They would have sent over maybe 20 guys trained in riot control, in full gear, who would have warned everyone with bullhorns that they needed to disperse. Most of that crowd couldn't have extricated themselves from the stampede, and, after waiting most of the night in the parking lot, the ones at the back wouldn't have obeyed either. Whether most would have been able to hear is also questionable. Next, the police, who unlike their urban counterparts aren't used to setting off teargas, would have waded in with clubs, trying to get people to obey orders. The only question is how many injuries, and how bad would they have been. There might still have been a death or even more than one, as the people toward the front in their panic would have begun to push in earnest themselves.

Either way, this mess would then all have been blamed on the manager who called the police, not Wal-Mart's lack of preventative measures. I'm sure the manager, at that late moment thought of telling the police of the impending disaster (since he had called them earlier for a few problem individuals), realized that it would only compound the problem, and that upper management would then blame the police action for causing the stampede, or at least for creating enormous negative publicity, and him for calling them. Yeah, some guys would have been arrested, but the stampede would have occurred nonetheless, and it would have been only coincidental if the guys arrested were the ones who caused the trouble.

Let's just use your own examples to illustrate the difference between situations with and without crowd control. At the concerts, as was suggested for the Wal-Mart sale, there is a visible pattern in place for the line, and as the people arrive, personnel to make sure they follow it. The security also "works" the line, lightening the mood. So even if pushing starts when the doors open, the whole force of the crowd isn't in one direction. It has to snake around and no one gets shoved more than a few feet, and even then without enough force to be knocked over. However, nothing like that was prepared for the unexpected press rush of Carter, so you were dragged along, as you say, for "a full city block". Can I assume that the press crowd was <50, as opposed to the 2000 at Wal-Mart? Might that have figured into why you weren't knocked down or trampled, as much as the reporters' superior civility? If there had been 2000 of them, could the ones who were concerned about you even been physically capable of helping you get out? Also the crowd you were in wasn't compressed against a locked door until it broke sending them hurtling inside through a relatively narrow, railed entryway.

The differences in the physical circumstances between the Carter and Wal-Mart situations are so obvious that I have to suspect some distortion in your thinking for you to blame the different outcome on the make-up of the two crowds. Yes, there had to be heedless thugs in the Wal-Mart crowd to have gotten things going, just as there had to have been some of the same behavior in the much smaller, less confined, Carter press group to have precipitated that situation. And people giggling at an injured man are vile. But to be so enraged at all the Wal-Mart shoppers that you want them all to be treated as "murderers" and Wal-Mart simply to be told to do their sales better in future; while seeing the majority of participants in the Carter episode as not only blameless, but caring, says more about your mindset than anything about the two groups. You painted the Wal-Mart crowd as all guilty of the actions of the worst few, and the press crowd as all as innocent as the after-the-fact behavior of the best few. I don't hear you wishing that a single person in the press stampede had been arrested. I'm sorry, but I smell covert racism in your assessments.

[DoctorMyEyes]

102. Did you actually say "thug mentality"?

Wow...

Anyhoo...

Have you seen Best Buy? Circuit City? EVERY major retailer? They have no portable fences, as you're suggesting here.

Yes, I have and yes they do.

Target: Stanchions and chains, police presence, obvious coordination
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAykUVNUoN0

Best Buy: Police tape creating a barrier, security at the door, staff outside, obvious coordination
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHYE7dOFzr4

Circuit City: Police tape, obvious coordination
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfc6uRqXwS4

And back in 2006 when my store and other major retailers were issuing tickets or numbers to those camping out waiting for a PS3 and trying to keep order Walmart was having fucking "foot races"!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrRdKIAQMRc

[FloridaJudy]

85. Thank you

I was one of those who stood in line for hours to hear Michelle Obama, and you're absolutely right. The organizers of that event had it right. It takes planning to keep a crowd from becoming a mob, and Wal-Mart dropped the ball. I've also been in a human stampede, and know how little control any individual has in that situation.

At the very least, Wal-Mart should have ordered its employees to stand well clear of the doors once it became obvious that the crowd was becoming unmanageable. No pile of cheap crap from China is worth someone's life.

[TexasObserver]

91. Nailed it. The mandate to stop a direct surge is paramount.

Only Walmart can make that happen. Only Walmart can control the crowd. A crowd that large cannot control its forward movement, because no one person is causing it.

[Daemonaquila]

92. Nonsense - reasonable people don't need crowd control not to stampede.

While crowd control can be helpful in keeping order under some circumstances, people do not need those measures to avoid killing someone as a reckless mob. I put 100% of the blame on the shoppers. If those people had their heads on even a little bit, they would've realized how idiotic it is to stand in line all night to get into a bloody Wal-Mart. If they had their heads on even a little bit, they would've walked in there rather than plunging and running through the doors for the same discounts that will be there in 2 hours as in the next 10 minutes. If they had their heads on even a little bit, they would've avoided ripping the doors off the store. If they had their heads on even a little bit they would've avoided barreling into the guy. If they had their heads on even a little bit - and had any better nature to go with it - they would've stopped, blocked off the area in front of the injured person, and tried to help him rather than keep stepping on him as if it's not their problem.

"And even the people who became fleetingly aware that someone was down probably didn't appreciate the seriousness of the situation or that they could have done anything to assist." This is such total horse hockey. We have eyes, brains, and consciences, and are not oblivious to someone in trouble. Our society - and its members who are willing to give others an excuse that the real problem is crowd control (or advertising, or poor warning stickers, or whatever the excuse du jour is) rather than the participants' common sense - does stupid crap like voting for neocons, equating supporting the troops with supporting a murderous war, allowing our manufacturing economy to be systematically dismantled as long as it gets them cheaper crap to buy, sitting by without noticing a thing as their neighbors carve up murder victim after murder victim in their basements, etc. because we give people a pass to turn their brains and hearts off and decide it's not their problem.

The people who smashed into this guy and actually hurt him need to be prosecuted. So does Wal-Mart, for setting up stampedes intentionally. The others who went by and didn't help need to be treated like puppies who make a mess in the corner, and have their noses figuratively rubbed in their mistake... at least by playing the security tape publicly and showing each and every one of their names that the media can find and noting that these people just walked on by.

[ravencalling]

93. Been in a mob situation

that scared the hell out of me! It was at a local football stadium where the game had been way over sold, and I am glad at that time I had not read about Hillsbourgh.

We were packed - smashed into little areas with the only outlet being a small opening into the stadium and pushed in that direction. People were smashed against the walls. You couldn't get out even if you wanted to turn around and leave. It took everything I had to hold down the panic that started to rise. I didn't want to be there.

Once in the stadium again, too many people for the aisles. At one point I was literally pushed over a railing and would have fallen if my fiance had not grabbed me. Consequently, we just waited for the crowd to get under control and then we left as fast as we could get out of there to avoid another mob scene.

So in this situation you had fans who wanted to see the game, and people who wanted to get the hell out of there, but could not. Yes there were drunks that just pushed and didn't seem to care making things worse, and dangerous. I was so scared someone would be hurt, and I was scared that I was going to be crushed, but I couldn't do a damned thing but try to keep my head above the mob, and try to keep myself from being smashed against a wall or pushed over a railing.

So - were some in the mob to blame in this situation? Well there were some that made things worse for sure, but they would have been harmless if they hadn't been crushed into the mob with the rest of us.

In the Walmart situation, after the surge started, the mob situation itself is to blame. Prior to that, just wanting to get into the store is not a crime, just like wanting to go to a football game is not a crime. Once it is a mob though, your choice is taken away. Even if at that point, you wanted to stop it, you couldn't. You would get crushed like the poor man who tried to stop the stampede.

That's my opinion.

[pipi_k]

103. "Reasonable people" can, and will

get involved in riots.

Just like "reasonable people" can, and have, been involved in terrible road rage incidents.

In fact, "reasonable people" can do just about anything and we should never be surprised when they act in a most unreasonable fashion.


Maybe it's not the best analogy in the world, but how many "reasonable" people believe in an invisible, white-bearded all-powerful Daddy figure who lives somewhere in the sky and controls every single aspect of the known universe...

[DoctorMyEyes]

108. reasonable drivers don't need traffic control not to crash.

So, if that's what you think reasonable people are capable of what do you think reasonable drivers are capable of?

Can we ditch speed limits, traffic lights, stop signs, center lines, lane paint? I'm sure reasonable people are capable of coordinating their actions with the other drivers so that no one crashes. Yeah, I'm being sarcastic. Forgive me for waking up a little snarky. The dog kicked me all night.

Now I'm imagining my "Big Box" parking lot with no line painting. It would look like a super-sized bumper car ride.

[Daemonaquila]

129. You're right. They don't.

Roads are analagous to the basics at a store - doors, ramps, in/out signs, and so on. Hard-core traffic control is pretty rare on the roads, especially once you are on the highway. Despite a high potential for chaos and carnage with massive mechanical objects, you rarely see the equivalent of what happened at Wal-Mart - mass road rage incidents. Not even when people have been sitting behind an accident for an hour or more. It's pretty simple - most drivers keep their wits about them on the road enough to avoid mob scenes, while people think much less when standing around in a line with a shopping cart or a basket. It's that thoughtlessness that got them there, not lack of traffic control.

[ColbertWatcher]

145. Good point! n/t

[clear eye]

122. Please read previous threads about what happened.

According to news accounts, the doors "flung back" the guy who later died, as he was trying to keep them from being burst open, and the people up front were sent hurtling forward by the pressure of 2000 people from behind when they broke. No individual or individuals knocked him down. All but the first row were pressed up against people in front of them so they couldn't see, and everyone was desperately trying to keep their own footing. The dying man landed near or under the railing on the side of the entryway, where shopping carts are kept. It is more than reasonable to assume that just about no one in that crush saw what was happening, and it definitely would have been impossible to stop until you were way past him, beyond the shopping carts where the entry area opens onto the main aisle. Even his coworkers near the door, who had a perfect view from behind, said they couldn't reach him for a while. That said, among those who saw him after the fact when CPR was being given, there were some who revoltingly thought it was a big joke. Most thought it was fine to continue shopping. And there had to have been a percentage of sociopathic bruisers in the crowd shoving hard enough before opening time to create that kind of momentum.

You missed the whole problem with the sale which served as the impetus for the disaster. Wal-Mart advertised high ticket items, claiming just a handful of each was available, to be sold at a deep discount to the first customers on that morning only. They achieved their aim of inflaming people's primal fear of scarcity only too well, simply for the purpose of motivating masses into the store. They had had similar problems at many of their stores in previous years, with injuries rather than a death.

I'm not about to give out any good citizenship awards to those shoppers, but it would be flat out inaccurate to blame them all for the small percentage engaged in hard shoving that was the direct cause of the worker's death. And you're way off in calling me a neocon apologist, tacitly encouraging people to duck out of opposing cruel gov't policies. Actually, I do my damnedest to get my party behind reversing the neocon structural changes that let them carry out their cruel agenda. Whenever I can I try to connect the dots for people I know who are conned into thinking that being anti-abortion proves a neocon candidate is moral. I see no contradiction in also blaming the administration for the Iraq war much more than the ignorant, impoverished young men who volunteer for the military, or Wal-Mart for this situation more than most of those brainwashed shoppers. Even so I've gotten into trouble for trying to encourge a co-worker to get tough about stopping her 17yo son from volunteering for the Army, and for trying to convince my sister to buy a more fuel efficient vehicle,

You're off-base here.

[DoctorMyEyes]

123. Good Analogy - Walmart as the Bush Cabal

I think I can see it sorta like that: Walmart, like Bush and his neocon buddies orchestrating a terribly conceived "war" and the shoppers as the troops. Sure there may be a psychopathic asshole or two in the mix, but for the most part these people are just like our own brothers and sisters doing the best they can in a situation they're participating in but didn't create.

[Daemonaquila]

130. I've read the articles quite thoroughly, thanks.

I know exactly what happened, and the problem lies with the people pushing and shoving. Wal-Mart is certainly at fault for playing games with creating races to the limited special items. Nevertheless, each one of those people in line has the option - AND RESPONSIBILITY - to think to themselves, "Is it worth someone's safety to be the first to that cheap item?" The people who were pushing had the option - AND RESPONSIBILITY - to ask themselves, "What's the possibly consequence of shoving so many other people into/through the doors? Do I need a $20 DVD player so badly that I'm willing to leave someone with a couple bruises, much less get them seriously hurt?" The people getting pushed had the option - AND RESPONSIBILITY - to wonder, "I'm not in such a great position getting shoved here. How about I say something to the people around me and try to get them to cut it out? Or how about slipping out the side and letting these bozos hurt themselves if they insist, but I don't have to be a part of that."

Speaking of primal fear of scarcity - while Wal-Mart certainly inflames that, people are not just Pavlov's dogs who are incapable of seeing that they're being manipulated or choosing to act in a better way even if they want the shiny cookie that's being dangled. Funny, most of the time we manage not to murder each other when we see someone with stuff we want. We certainly know about the primal fear of scarcity when people lose their jobs at a plant where the execs get paid 100 times their former salaries, and still pick up more bonuses, yet for some reason those bosses don't wind up stabbed or shot despite the workers losing their homes and their kids going hungry. You can make all the excuses you want for these people, but they screwed up. Them, totally separate from Wal-Mart.

I'm tired of hearing some of the left wing grouse about why the public can't seem to get past the illusory solution of "Drill, baby, drill," won't take simple steps like conserving electricity at home, and keep buying gas guzzlers despite practically daily articles about peak oil and global warming, then take this lackadaisical attitude toward individual responsibility. If you can't expect people to make the correct basic decision about not hurting each other over a piece of crap that will be broken next month, you certainly can't expect them to ever make the more complex connections about the crises of the day. You can't have it both ways. The first step to seeing more responsibility and thought out of people on the big issues is to expect, no demand, that they be responsible about the basic business of living around each other, like in this incident.

[blondeatlast]

135. "Left wing groups." Even here on "more liberal than thou" DU we disagree

on this issue and yet you isolate "left wing groups." Half of the people on this thread--people I've known on DU for a long time--disagree with my feelings on the issue yet you ascribe groupthink to "left wing groups."

Transparent...

[RaleighNCDUer]

142. I'm reminded of K's comment to Edwards in Men In Black.

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals."

When you talk about a crowd you are not talking about any person in the crowd. You are talking more about an example of fluid dynamics - pressure applied, forced through a nozzle. No one droplet can say "Hey, wait a minute - this is nuts!"

If you think that, you've never been caught in a mass movement of people.

It is terrifying.

[Liberal In Texas]

94. Very astute assessment and a common sense plan.

You would think that anyone running one of these big box stores would have a plan like this as SOP. Walmart needs to be held liable for this unnecessary tragedy.

[LiberalEsto]

95. That diagram reminds me of Disney World

They always have a labyrinth of barriers to control the long lines of people waiting to get onto rides and attractions. If they didn't, the place would have shut down long ago because of riots.

Come to think of it, the Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration does the same thing when you go to get your car registered, etc.

[Buns_of_Fire]

114. That was my first thought, with one quibble...

I know that whether I'm first in line, in the middle of the line, or at the end of the line, I'll eventually get to see the exact same attraction that everyone else is in line for. Obviously, the shoppers at these damned "quantities limited" events know otherwise.

But I'll give it to the Disney organization. If anyone has "crowd control" down pat, they do.

[LynneSin]

96. I don't know if this wal-mart does it but other stores have food & coffee for those waiting

Personally, I hope the family of that person trampled to death brings a giant-ass lawsuit against Wal-mart. And not just because I'm somehow 'anti-Walmart' but because this death was 100% preventable.

You can't help but have crowds lined up outside a store on Black Friday especially when you have much desired items at a price that makes them extremely affordable to the public.

But a line should have been created outside of the store. And I know alot of the stores in the Harrisburg area (not necessarily Walmart) had local civic & church groups outside providing coffee and selling snacks to those who were waiting. They were there to help keep the masses calmed while waiting.

It's a shame that someone's family will forever be tainted with their loved one being stampled to death at a Walmart. Why don't they make a movie out of that instead of that bad dreck about the baby born in Walmart? Let people see the real tragedy of this store.

[KittyWampus]

120. I was thinking the same. If not food/coffee at least do a raffle for those 5 flat screen tvs

so EVERYONE assembled has a chance and not just the few at the head of the line.

You could also slash prices on ALL tv's and cameras or whatever by 75% during those early morning hours so those who don't win the raffle still have a chance to get a great bargain.

This would be fair, still draw customers and help promote a merry atmosphere.

[Corgigal]

98. competitive mob fixated on their goal

I'm not sure how many DU'ers have been in these lines attempting to save a few bucks on black friday. I won't try to fight for any electronic equipment or gaming system on that day because I know the odds are stacked against me. The young, healthy and fast are going to cut me off in the aisle and grab the few items advertised at that price. Lots of these same people then are going to turn around and sell them on e-bay for triple the amount they paid for it. If you're young and fit and can wait in line for one night, get that item to turn around and sell it to pay for all your Christmas gifts for the family. Lots of motivation there.

Now imagine being stuck inside two doors of Walmart, for hours while you listen to all the others around you. Most will be there for the same items as we all watch the clock tick down. Those early morning sales are sporting events, and Walmart knows that. We've been reading for years about people fighting in stores over toys and items. We have read about women getting into physical attacks because one took something out of someone cart. This was going to happen sooner or later and maybe now all the stores will have to change their ways.

[pipi_k]

106. Exactly what I'm thinking...

Even in the best of times, people are willing to camp out on the sidewalks or in parking lots to get something they really want, either for themselves, a friend or family member, or to resell...

The economic times are horrendous right now

People have even more stress...

and that raises the stakes all the way around.

[pipi_k]

101. I agree, they should have taken better measures, but...

maybe the best solution would have been to paint the front of the store a nice soothing pink color, pump marijuana fumes into the parking lot to calm the wild beasts, and pass out bags of Cheetohs and chips.


voila...a crowd too mellow to riot!


unfortunate down side...a crowd too mellow to shop....

:hippie:

[DoctorMyEyes]

105. Brilliant!!!

The pink paint may be pushing it though... :smoke:

[pipi_k]

107. Well I had considered

black lights and day-glo posters, but wondered if it might disturb some of the elderly shoppers (i.e. people older than my Baby Boomer self...ha ha!)

[DoctorMyEyes]

121. Maybe we should skip the strobe lights too?

What about lava lamps? I think lava lamps could be very helpful.

[LynneSin]

124. Wal-mart sells food too - you'd think that type of crowd would have the munchies

there you go!

[yardwork]

109. Thank you.

[Javaman]

117. but but but....

then china-mart wouldn't make it to the evening entertain-a-newsshows with shots of insane crowds of people suffering from emotional poverty rushing into the stores!!!

I loath china-mart with every fiber of my being.

[Deja Q]

118. That picture is sexist. Where are the ladies' rooms? Only mens' rooms. Did Larry Craig design it?

[postman07]

128. Just don't shop on black friday

The only way to stop this madness is to stop falling into their traps like this. Stay home the day after Thanksgiving. Stop shopping at these giant chain stores. Shop locally.

[ksimons]

131. the irony is they don't want to spend a penny to prepare, but

then they end up throwing bags of cash on families and victims of these mistakes after the fact.

i hope the insurance companies that insure them quadruple their fees in response to this to punish their short-sighted preparations for these basic events that they do each and every year, without learning a thing. maybe their wallet-area will feel what their hearts are not feeling. money talks and they continue to not get it

[Willo]

132. Thank you and I agree with everything you've written.

Reading through the posts I think some differences lie in the purposed direction of the crowd.

1) When a lot of people gather to purchase limited items from a specific location and can obviously see around them, that they outnumber their intended items, the "fixation on their goal" would become more determined and manic, surging forward.

2) People gathering for a speech or to watch the ball drop are content with being in a wider location, having no further destination or goal. Only a panicked disruption would cause these people to disperse and scatter in many directions.

3) Standing in line for an activity that doesn't have a limit on time or quantity, like voting, is probably the tamest of the situations. Also subject to a panicked disruption.

Obviously, where there is a crowd there is a potential for danger. It is important to know your exit points, possible directions the crowds may flee and your ability to reach those exits safely (before the surge and exit gets blocked). Also, stake out possible alternatives like standing behind a tree, pillar or niche in the wall until the crowd has passed you by.

Any official seeking out individuals to blame in this case is either very ignorant of crowd behavior or blatantly looking for a scapegoat.

[Lost-in-FL]

133. A solution finally and not mere criticism!! nt

[mcg]

136. IMO, Walmart etc. should not even allow these long lines,

and should not allow waiting in line for so long.

[Optimistic]

138. Wal mart will be out of many states by Christmas of next year.

With Multi-Trillion dollar lawsuits and in every state that has Unions that will orginize and strike to get a $15.00 an Hour wage with full Medical Benefits for all Workers. You will see Wal-Mart close 1000's of stores.

[ColbertWatcher]

144. I hope you're correct. n/t

[happygoluckytoyou]

139. WALMART... what union busting dumb-f's still shop at that whorehouse of labor ripoffs!

SPEAKING AS AN OWNER OF A WALMART STORE... AND SON OF THE GREAT BILLYBOB D. WALMART HISSELF... I WOULD JUST LIKE TO SAY THAT WE VALUE OUR CUSTOMERS AND OUR EMPLOYEES RIGHT BEHIND VALUING OUR STOCK AND OUR PROFITS.

[happygoluckytoyou]

140. WALMART... WHERE SAFETY IS JOB #2... we made a profit we made a profit we made a profit we made a pr

[donco6]

141. You're exactly right.

I've seen this type of setup hundreds of times - and it works very well. There's no excuse for Wal Mart not to have set this up. Even the day of the event, they could have jerry-rigged something.

[proud patriot]

143. I'm in complete Agreement with you

and thank you for your thoughtful post .

[liberal N proud]

148. I have suggested similar tactic to the store manager where

my wife works for several years.

This was inevitable.

A few weeks back Wal-Mart had a mini blitz where they had PC's for $300. My wife organized the event locally and passed out tickets out front. If you got a ticket, you would get a PC, once the tickets were gone, there was no reason to stand in line.

[CitizenPatriot]

149. great post

it's not unusual for people to blame other people and think they would be above such behavior. This kind of denial of things which are out of our control is very common. We don't like to think something like this could happen. To us. We could never be involved in it. If you blame the people, you're saying it is controllable. It's not.

The same thinking is why we tend to blame the victim in domestic violence and other violent crimes. It's so outrageous and disturbing to us that we literally can't comprehend that these things could JUST happen. If the victim is at fault, that means they had control over it. If you can find fault with them morally, and judge them, then you not only distance yourself from the victim, thereby making yourself feel safer, but you also fool yourself into thinking that since you would never do x or y, this could never happen to you, thereby fooling yourself into thinking you have control over random events.

Once you've been through any event which has caused you to realize that we do not have control over many things and life indeed is furiously out of control, you aren't as likely to judge the people involved in a situation like this. The truth is, we don't know these people so we don't have enough information to make any judgments on their character. We know that the crowd, as a singular entity, was out of control. We know that force from the rear caused trampling, which the people in the rear could not know. TO assume that you would be the one person who is above such behavior, as if you could magically stop such a force out of the sheer force of your will or superior morals is foolishly naive. There aren't too many people walking around who want to step on another human. If you attribute the tragedy to the crowd's lack of caring, you are basically saying that of the 2,000 people there, not enough people cared. that doesn't seem logical or feasible to me.

The fact that we as a culture have grown callous and indifferent and tending toward sociopathy is not the causal factor here. So, while I concur with some of your opinions on us as a culture, to attribute those traits as the cause of this tragedy is simply not logical. Separate issue.

Truth is, no one could have stopped the force of the crowd. Bad things happen to good people. Things don't make sense. Unfair things happen.

WalMart has a responsibility and it failed. A man is dead. If that doesn't cause them to do everything within their power to stop this from happening in the future, what does that say about them? Because this has happened before. So they knew about the possibility.

[MedleyMisty]

156. I agree

deleting to post later in the thread

[WillieW]

150. I hope that Walmart is being sued for millions

[David Zephyr]

151. Great post!

And I love your name here: DoctorMyEyes. Jackson Browne is a god.

[Jambalaya]

152. WalMart "Year Round "Crime

Wonderful piece. How easy to eliminate confusion and chaos,
not to mention needless loss of life. I've read quite a few
posts on quite a few sites about this tragic event,but what I
have NOT seen mentioned is the issue of crime and lack of
security at WalMarts all year long. No, I'm not referring to
sales spectaculars,I mean everyday ,year round shopping. There
is little to no security in the parking lots,just cameras. The
live security,if there's any ,is inside looking for
shoplifters. You're on your own until you get in the building
and buy,then you're on your own once you dropped your money in
their registers and leave. I typed in WalMart crime into my
search engine and its
unbelievable.Murders,abductions,rapes,molestations,
robberies,shootings-its a veritable happy hunting ground for
criminals.And,I suspect that as the economy worsens,these
statistics will escalate.I went to WalMart twice-first and
last,years ago. Ain't looked back or been back!

[DoctorMyEyes]

153. Welcome to DU - Great first post!

You bring up an interesting topic. I don't know why Walmarts are "crime magnets" but they do seem to be. It's a certainty that Walmart stores put a strain on local law enforcement budgets. And I believe the company-wide policy is 100% prosecution for shoplifters no matter what the dollar amount, age, or condition of the offender. The store managers may have some discretion to modify that policy in their individual locations - and again - I'm not sure of that. But even taking into account the increased calls for shoplifting incidents there seems to be an increase in all types of reported crimes.

I don't know if it's directly their fault, as with the ever predictable stampedes or if it's because of the sheer size and number of their stores that make it seem like they get more than their fair share of robberies, abductions, shootings, etc. Or even if it's their target shopper demographics?

Interesting topic, though and I'm glad you posted.

[AngryOldDem]

154. It's the sheer size of their parking lots.

They're huge, and impossible to fully police, unless you have security in cars (like mall security) patrolling constantly. And Wal-mart ain't gonna shell out the bucks for that. I think they'd probably put more effort into protecting their shopping carts.

Crime in the lots happens at all hours of the day. Right off the top of my head, I can think of two incidents that happened here recently -- an elderly woman had her purse grabbed (in broad daylight) and was dragged as she was caught by the perp's car. Another woman was abducted at another store.

It is extremely easy to walk out of the store and get totally discombobulated as to where your car is. I ALWAYS make a point when parking at a mall or other large store to look for some landmark or park by a light pole -- something that I can look for to get myself oriented. But I've noticed that at Wal-mart, I always get turned around and lost in the lot, I think because it is just so expansive, packed with as many cars as will fit(seems like thousands), and it's nothing buy asphalt with a few light poles thrown in. It's like walking into a void.

And at night...only shopped there once at night, because I had no other choice. Never again. The lot lighting at that particular store was abysmal.

Most Wal-marts are just too damned big. Period. That is the problem.

[Jambalaya]

155. WalMart Crime Statistics

Dear Doctor: Thank you for your kind words. I have been a longtime fan of this site. Re: Crime at WalMart-I have downloaded a couple of links about crime statistics at WalMart. Whew! My granddaddy used to tell me that the thieves know where the easy pickin's are. According to this crime report,everday's a holiday in the WalMart parking lots. A real burden on the police force,too,from what I've read.... Wal-Mart Crime Report - Is your local Wal-Mart Safe?The Wal-Mart stores sampled had an average reported police incident rate of 269 incidents per store in 2004.
walmartcrimereport.com/ - 3k - Cached - Similar pages
Crime and Wal-Mart — “Is Wal-Mart Safe?”File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
relationship between incidents of crime and Wal-Mart stores raises concerns ... discussed the impact of having to respond to calls for service at Walmart ...
walmartcrimereport.com/report.pdf -

[MedleyMisty]

157. I don't blame them for the man's death

The only thing I can really blame them for is for being there in the first place. I looked at the links about Hillsborough (which terrified me because I have claustrophobia), but for some reason my mind draws a line between wanting to go see a soccer game versus letting yourself be mind controlled into the whole stupid Black Friday thing and omg, I've got to go shopping because the media tells me to.

But that's not a vicious and hateful thing - it's more just puzzlement and inability to understand and it applies to everyone who was at a store last Friday, not to just this particular group.

I've studied the psychology of blaming the victim, and I'm just as unable to understand it. Although there I will admit that there is more hostility - those who blame the victim do more damage than people who shop when the TV tells them to. Well - do more immediate damage. Because of course those who shop when told to contribute to a lot of pain and misery in the world and destruction of the environment. And I do as well, even if I choose to not go shopping in crowds like that. It's a pretty empty choice, really.

I guess it's sort of like the whole species is a mob and that we are all at the mercy of the few who start the shoving.

[CitizenPatriot]

158. it's a great irony, isn't it

that the people who blame the victims are in fact following the same mob mentality that they are decrying. Sad.

Blaming the victim in the true sense of the phrase is indeed extremely harmful psychologically and often does more damage than the initial attack. I know this isn't the same thing, but the psychology behind it appears to be operating on the same need to fool ourselves into believing this wouldn't happen to us.

[DoctorMyEyes]

160. Your last line is actually pretty profound

I guess it's sort of like the whole species is a mob and that we are all at the mercy of the few who start the shoving.


I'm going to try to remember that. Too true...

[conscious evolution]

166. It is.

[niyad]

159. not that it will bring the young man back, but I hope his family sues big time. this same wal-mart

had a similar crowd control situation last year,only nobody died. and their "gee, we're sorry" is inexcusable. yet one more reason never to set foot in a wal-mart, and yet another reason (not that I needed one) to NEVER hit the stores on black friday.

[ColbertWatcher]

161. Do you have a link for what happened last year? n/t

[DoctorMyEyes]

162. Editorial: Target, Best Buy have strategies to avoid shopping mayhem.

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/editorials/35423079.html?elr=KArks7PYDiaK7DUqyE5D7UiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

The editorial backs us what every decent retailer knows about crowd control and "keeping the peace" for everyone's safety.

This comment, from the perspective of someone who has waited in line for these "doorbuster" deals, also shows the stark contrast between Walmart and what is accepted practice everywhere else:

The ticket system works!

Having been involved in several hot ticket items that required standing outside waiting, I appreciated Target's efforts to ensure everyone got what they wanted and was taken care of. I stood in line for a Wii and got the last ticket. Everyone was free to then go take a nap and warm up in their cars until the store opened. Target even handed out popcorn and hot chocolate to everyone there. Another time I was waiting for another item in line, the downtown Target let us eventually those with tickets sit inside the lobby entrance since our cars weren't nearby and gave us Starbucks for free. Since there was only 1 item drawing everyone there, those with tickets just went back home. Target knows what they're doing and I really appreciate it!