December 3, 1979 eleven fans died while waiting to see The Who perform

[Dukkha]

The Wal Mart incident immediately made me remember this. I grew up in Ohio and was 10 at the time. I was not allowed to see concerts for years after that.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,312557,00.html

By the late '70s, Riverfront Coliseum in Cincinnati had built a reputation for allowing crowds to run way out of control. Fans threw fireworks during a 1976 Yes concert there. The following year, a violent seat-seeking mob rushed a locked entrance before a performance by Led Zeppelin, resulting in 60 arrests and numerous injuries.

Blame for these incidents fell on the Coliseum's general-admission ticket policy, known as festival seating. The first-come, first-sit scheme was used at other rock arenas with relative safety, but in the Coliseum it seemed to bring on stampedes at the entrances. A tragedy seemed inevitable, and then the inevitable happened. On Dec. 3, 1979, while waiting to get into a concert by the Who, 11 fans were crushed to death and dozens injured.

More than 18,000 people had begun assembling as early as 1:30 for the 8 o'clock show. The crowd jockeyed for position all afternoon; pushed from behind, fans in front became an undulating tide. At 7:05, after the Who had finished their sound check, a paltry 5 of the Coliseum's 134 doors were opened, and the real trouble began. The 25 police officers assigned to keep order were helpless since only the Coliseum's security staff had the authority to open more doors.

For nearly an hour, people were jammed together up against the glass doors, unable to move or, in some cases, even breathe. At 7:30, partway through the bedlam, a police lieutenant asked the Coliseum manager to open additional doors but was told there were no more ticket takers available — only nine had been hired — and to enlist ushers would be a union violation. Even as the Who, unaware of the horrors outside, began their concert, ambulances were arriving to tend to the m

[ailsagirl]

1. I remember seeing a program about this on VH1. It was a terrible

story-- one I had heard something about when it happened but didn't look into it.

As I recall, none of the victims' families were in any way compensated. The Who
didn't do anything, either. (Perhaps that has changed, but that's what I remember
reading.)

Very sad and preventable.

[Dukkha]

The Who even still performed that night

completely unaware of what occured

[ColbertWatcher]

11. "The Who even still performed that night ... completely unaware of what occured"

I heard they weren't told because they didn't want another crush.

That seemed so long ago until Friday.

[NashVegas]

2. Yeah, I Just Posted About That

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4549937

[Sonicmedusa]

3. Those concert-goers are greedy, murderous, animals!

:sarcasm:

[onehandle]

4. I saw the WKRP in Cincinnati recently that addressed that event.

Good episode. Very real.

I was of concert age at that time and have been nervous about them ever since. The worst ever was when my girlfriend and I were almost pushed onto subway rails after leaving a David Bowie concert.

"In Concert" (2/11/80)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WKRP_in_Cincinnati_episodes

[ailsagirl]

6. I just read about it-- I'm glad they devoted an episode to it.

Apparently, Cincinnati has lifted the ban on festival seating. Amazing

[backwoodsbob]

7. I saw Cheap Trick and Blackfoot free in downtown Detroit

was 93 or 94 and a freaking war broke out at hart plaza

I had my ex and our at the time 7 year old there right in the front where all the shit hit the fan.Scared the hell out of me.We watched someone get thrown off a 20 foot high wall onto concrete.

The Detroit Outlaws will ALWAYS be my heroes after that day.We had no way out of the fighting and they saw we had a small child and formed a ring around us and walked us out daring anyone to get near us.I think they literally would have killed to keep us safe.

I've always managed to send a few bucks there way every year since.

[codjh9]

5. Yeah, I remember it well, and that was fucking horrible too. It's happened at soccer games

in Europe as well.

[RainDog]

9. At Heysel stadium, in Brussels, the Liverpool fans attacked Italian fans

the Italian (Juvenal) soccer fans were crushed after Liverpool fans crashed a fence that separated them at the European Cup that was being played in Brussels. This situation really does not compare with Wal-Mart. - All British soccer teams clubs were banned from play in all European football (soccer) competitions for five years or so. Not long after that I was at a soccer match in Brugge (Bruges) -- and the fans of the British team were, literally, kept in a cage because they acted like.. yes, like hooligans. Hooligans (hooligan is a specific term in relation to football club groups) in Britain have been linked to right wing hate groups, racists...neo-nazis --

but you know, they're victims and not responsible for their thoughts or actions -- because they're not rich.

[ColbertWatcher]

10. You picked Heysel, but failed to mention Hillsborough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a16gV5ZQ8g0

[RainDog]

13. Hillsborough was a police error

the police failed to re-route people from the big fan area for Liverpool - tho this had been done in the past. no one, to this day, knows why the police were not on hand to re-route people away from the central pens. because of this, the pens had about half again as many people as they should have. these are the seats that aren't seats... you stand the entire time. Even tho stadiums have moved to using seats, the stadium in Brugge, and Heysel still had standing years later - maybe they still do. I don't know.

one problem that day was that when people starting trying to help those who had been crushed, the police stopped them because they thought the fans were trying to get to the Hillsborough fans -- because of past incidences of hooliganism.

the stadium was not judged to be at fault, even tho they had not opened more turnstiles - but they had not opened more turnstiles because people without tickets showed up in such numbers that they didn't want them to get inside - but people showed up in such numbers that they couldn't get away from the area. when the police opened outer gates to let people in... THOUSANDS of fans, even those without tickets... you know, that are sold to stay within capacity - went into the stadium - and when they got there - there were no police inside directing them away from the central area for the Liverpool fans.

Was the stadium at fault because there were more fans than available tickets?

[ColbertWatcher]

14. I'm talking about how those people died; you're talking about the Taylor report.

Regardless who is at fault, the people at Hillsborough died from compressive asphyxia not due to a "rowdy crowd".

My point is that a violent crowd is not needed for people to die in a crowd disaster.

By choosing Heysel, you're trying to focus on violent people in a crowd, rather than on the physics of a crowd.

[RainDog]

15. The Wal-Mart employee was not part of the crowd

He was inside the building. He didn't die from compressive asphyxia either - because this term refers specifically to being in a crowd and being crushed by that crowd.

Hillsborough was also, in part, the problem of an unruly crowd if there were people, and there were, who were running into the stadium even tho they had no tickets and were crowding into an area, pushing themselves into an area that was already full.

but the police should have been stationed at the pens to turn away people.

[ColbertWatcher]

16. Actually you're wrong on both points.

The autopsy report is in, Damour died from asphyxia (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iDXtETwP7G17BQsO07DecwxuziLgD94Q89OGA).

And compressive asphyxia is not limited to being crushed by a crowd; it refers to losing the ability to breath due to the torso (and lungs) being compressed.

[RainDog]

17. Nevertheless, he did not die because he was in the crowd.

the deaths at the stadiums were all from people who were in the crowd.

I don't know why it's an issue that I mention that crowds have been problems at football matches in Europe for a long time. it's the truth. I mentioned that particular match because it doesn't fit the scenario that people assume - because it indicates human agency - because crowds are composed of humans who can choose to walk away rather than push forward, if they're at the back, for instance...or call on others to stop, rather than continuing negative actions because of self-interest.

[ColbertWatcher]

18. You do realize the crowd at the Wal-Mart moved, right?

Damour might not have been a part of the crowd in the beginning, but was once it did what crowds do, he was. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion#Newton.27s_first_law:_law_of_inertia">Newton's first law of motion)

I don't know why it's an issue that I mention that crowds have been problems at football matches in Europe for a long time.

No one is denying the existence of soccer hooligans. My problem is that by focusing on soccer hooligans, you ignore the mindlessness of a crowd. No one in the back of a crowd has any idea what is going on the front. No one in the front can do anything. No one in the middle has the slightest idea where they are or do anything. And the whole thing moves forward.

I mentioned that particular match because it doesn't fit the scenario that people assume

Actually it seemed as though you chose Heysel because it fits the soccer hooligan "scenario" perfectly. I chose Hillsborough, because it showed that even without violent members, a crowd can be deadly.

That was my point.

[RainDog]

21. and so we both have examples of tragedies.

and now another one.

but you misunderstood when I said my example didn't fit - I was talking about the current paradigm here, on DU, that holds, at this time, that if anyone questions whether or not evil Wal-Mart (a corporation I detest and have not set foot in in probably a decade) is totally responsible for the events that occurred the other day.

this corresponds now, on DU, with asides about someone's latent racism, even if people remarked about the situation without any idea of anyone's race... or maybe even with an assumption that the crowd was not made up primarily of non-caucasians.

however, the example of Hillsborough does have to take into account the reality that people who did not have tickets went into the stadium. Thousands of people went into the stadium and among those thousands were people who did not have tickets. Tickets are sold to contain the size of the crowd. Therefore, those people who entered without tickets are also part of the problem - tho ultimately, a lack of police presence to keep the cage from becoming crowded beyond capacity is the final problem that caused deaths inside the cage... the deaths were in this one area.

[devilgrrl]

20. Check out how Rupert Murdoch's SUN newspaper pissed on the Liverpool fans

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca52fsOZjAU&feature=related

[ColbertWatcher]

22. Thank you so much for finding and posting this video!

This is exactly what's happening right now!

The GOP-controlled media is blaming the individuals in the crowd and ignoring Wal-Mart's part in Damour's death.

[ben_meyers]

8. Boycott the Who!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x8279790

[sellitman]

12. They were not told until the event was over.

Why would you do that?


:crazy:

[brentspeak]

19. Completely different situation

The Who fans were unknowingly crushed to death by the fans waiting behind them; the latter believed the doors had opened and moved forward as one giant mass, not knowing that the people all the way in the front were being smushed against closed doors.

The Wal-Mart incident was completely different: the people in the front knowingly broke down the doors and deliberately trampled right over the employee facing them.

[ColbertWatcher]

23. Unless you were in the crowd at the Wal-Mart or ...

... you interviewed them all, you cannot know what they were thinking.

[brentspeak]

24. We already know that they broke down the doors

and then stormed over the person standing in front of them. No need to guess as their thoughts.