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Sonicmedusa Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 11:45 AM
Original message
To those who are blaming the people in the crowd:
Moving crowds

1) A surge or stampede generates an incredible amount of energy. Experts compare it to a locomotive: once it gets going, it's hard to stop. If you find yourself in the middle don't stand still or sit down – you can easily get trampled. Keep your legs moving in the direction of the crowd, and try getting to the outside where the flow is weaker.

2) The last thing you want to do is fall. But if you do, get up quickly. If you can't, get someone to pull you back up. This is when having a friend nearby can be a lifesaver.

3) If you can't get up, keep moving by crawling in the direction of the crowd. If that's not possible, your last resort is to ball up and cover your head.

4) Sometimes, high energy crowds create an ebb and flow of people that could sweep you off your feet. Fighting against these "waves" will probably knock you over, so keep your legs moving, try not to fall, and take advantage of any space that may open up in front of you. If you're lucky, you may be able to work yourself to the side where the crowd is weaker.

5) The worst place in a surge is at the very front of the crowd against an immovable object, like a fence or stage barricade. It may be tempting to make your way up close to where the action is on stage. But it's smart to stay away. Crowd pressure here can build up quickly and be deadly. People in back will have no idea what's happening up front.
http://www3.babson.edu/offices/public_safety/alerts_inf...

A surging crowd of 2000 people becomes a human tsunami. Anyone who had stopped and reached down to help the fallen man up would have been trampled themselves. I just can't comprehend how anyone can blame the individuals in the crowd.

Walmart is completely to blame for this tragedy. I wish Walmart would DIE.

That's all.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Bullshit. Someone could have at least tried to get this poor guy out of the way of the people behind
Why are you jerks so anxious to relieve the humans responsible for this of any responsibility and place it all on the place where it occurred.
Is it now the Correct Democratic Thing to not be responsible for your own actions?

Or are you all just moronic Walmart haters?

mark
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. If you ever find yourself in the situation maybe you will figure it out.
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 12:07 PM by lizzy
The laws of physics and all that.
Even the ones up front might be not responsible, if the ones in the back pushed them.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
68. I have been in that situation at concerts, and I helped to pick people up.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. It can't always be done
I was in the middle of a mild stampede at a concert. My feet were completely off the ground and I was smushed and carried along with the crowd that way. It was scary as hell. I could barely breathe and could not move my arms or legs I was so compressed with bodies around me.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. You have to keep on moving. If you try to stop or pick something
off the ground you might end up trampled as well.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Must be nice to be perfect
and to never have been in that kind of situation. I have & you have absolutely no control over what's happening until you can get away from the crowd.

dg
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. On the contrary people are implicityl blaming the Walmart manager who
had that man positioned to try to restrain the crowd. And rightly so.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
84. The Reason I Blame That Manager. . .
. . .is that the store was fully staffed more than 40 minutes before the incident.

That manager could have opened the stupid doors 10 minutes early to reduce the tension in the crowd. The whole incident could have been prevented by not INSISTING that the doors would NOT be opened until 6am.

A little common sense when the entire staff was there and ready to go would have easily prevented a tragedy.
The Professor
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. The OP is quite correct.
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 12:34 PM by TexasObserver
The OP is quite correct.

Go read about the dynamic of crowd movements and you'll find your condemnations are without basis.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. The correct democratic Thing to do is to appreciate science. This
is a survival tactic and it provably works.


I didn't hate Wal-Mart when Sam Walton was alive, btw.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
35. If you've ever been in a crowd pushing forward with any intensity you'd understand that it's not BS.
What's bullshit is trying to deflect the blame away from the store (in this case, WalMart.)There's no excusing the crazy and dangerous behavior of some in the crowd (and it most certainly was only some of them who were acting aggressively )but the store set up this tragedy by having inadequate crowd control. The store had experience with the way these early bird sales played out and did not prepare for it appropriately. It's like yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater.


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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. Do you own stock in Wal Mart or something? n/t
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
42. Co-workers DID try to rescue the man that was killed and they also got trampled. n/t
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
43. no you can't
You cannot buck a crowd that is in a panic. You are failing to understand this. Panic happens quickly, and it is deadly. The people caught up in it are not necessarily guilty of doing anything wrong. Where it happens, and why people were there in the first place are completely irrelevant.

I think you are projecting when you call people "just moronic Walmart haters." You are the one who is letting your hatred cloud you reason on this, in my opinion. Also, you are blaming others for supposedly giving in to their emotions as you yourself are doing that very thing here.

Calling people jerks is an ad hominem attack, and also betrays weakness in you argument that you would need to resort to that.
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
50. Been there - you are completely wrong
It's life being a leaf in the Colorado river.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
63. Well... I guess that'll about cover commentary on stampedes when you haven't been in one...
:rofl:
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. Both Mall-Wart and the shoppers are to blame
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 12:08 PM by brentspeak
If those 2,000 shoppers had been clones of me, for instance, we would have agreed to let each other in one-at-a-time. Not everyone has an insatiable need to stampede their way into a store.
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norepubsin08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. If it had been me...first of all I never would have gone there
just driving by a Wal-Mart makes me feel like I need to go confession...secondly..Christmas is bullshit...all it has become is fucking materialism...I make it point to give gifts at other times of the year and refuse to buy any gift or Christmassy type item from November 15th-January 15th. All business is evil and Christmas business is the worse of all!!!
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Driving by a WalMart makes you feel like you need confession?
Seriously...why?
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norepubsin08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Because the place is so evil and dirty
it's like slowing down at a porn shop hoping the doors are open just so you can get a peek inside!!!
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. .
:spray:

:thumbsup:
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. I don't know why the building should have any effect on YOU.
You don't shop there. I can't imagine why you should feel anything one way or another.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
53. He was using hyperbole--it's a figure of speech in which the speaker or
writer deliberately exaggerates for effect.

You, on the other hand, are being literal-minded--insisting on the simplest, most obvious meaning of a word or words, with no consideration at all for the possibility of figurative meaning or of nuances beyond that most literal and simplistic level.
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norepubsin08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
74. Thank you exactly what I was doing!!!
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crikkett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
83. liberal guilt, and liberal despondency.
Driving by a Wal-Mart makes a liberal feel guilt because they are reminded that the society which allowed it to flourish is of, by, and for greed. It makes a liberal feel despondent because they know its smiley face is a mask hiding human misery, and its toxic petroleum-based wares are nothing but the cynical exploitation of the environment, the producers and the purchasers, for the benefit of those few souls who authorized the marketing plan that whipped up the mob that trampled to death an innocent man, just trying to do his job.

Merry effing christmas.

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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
54. Time out.
:spray:

That's funny, but trust me. I've been inside Wal-Mart and I've seen porn. There is no comparison. Still, that's pretty fucking funny. :rofl:
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
45. not relevant
There are crowds that you would be in, and all crowds are susceptible to this and all in the crowd are at risk.

The exact same thing happens in protest marches and demonstrations.

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codjh9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. I agree. Regardless of why they were there (i.e. Mall-Wort lured 'em), you can't f-ing TRAMPLE
PEOPLE TO DEATH, dammit! You can't let off the crowd completely in this case.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. Yes.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
77. if you were in the front, you wouldn't have had an opportunity to let anyone in ahead of you
because there were 1999 other people behind you leaning forward.

This isn't difficult to understand. Apparently, some DU'ers feel the need to display their imagined superiority regardless of facts.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #77
82. Well, here are some facts:
Edited on Sun Nov-30-08 11:07 AM by brentspeak


http://blogs.timesunion.com/advocate/?p=610

I learned about this from a comment on the Capitol Confidential blog, of all places. The Black Friday crowd at a Wal-Mart in Nassau County literally broke down the doors at 5 A.M. and knocked over the person guarding those doors. Hundreds of people then trampled the employee as they ran into the store.

The victim, Jdimypai Damour, a 34-year-old part-time employee sent by a temp agency, died of his injuries this morning.

Though rumors circulated among the shoppers that someone had been badly injured, people ignored the Wal-Mart workers requests that they stop shopping, move to the front of the store and exit, Cribbs said.

They kept shopping. Its not right. Theyre savages, Cribbs said.

Edit, 5:40 p.m. - More details from the New York Times. The more details come out, the worse this story gets. From the Times story:

People did not stop to help the employee as he lay on the ground, and they pushed against other Wal-Mart workers who were trying to aid Mr. Damour. The crowd kept running into the store even after the police arrived, jostling and pushing officers who were trying to perform CPR, the police said.

They were like a stampede, said Nassau Det. Lt. Michael Fleming. Hundreds of people walked past him, over him or around him.


So this wasn't simply a situation involving too many people in too small a space creating an unintended stampede (like the Who concert); it was, in the words of an eye-witness, a problem involving people who didn't give a damn who got trampled on.

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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. What was the reaction of the customers after this tragedy?
they raised a fuss when the store was closed

fuck everyone of those assholes
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. Are you fucking kidding?
Sorry, 'mob mentality' doesn't erase a person's moral obligation to NOT step ON or OVER a person laying on the floor! This was just plain selfish evil, encouraged by Walmart's stupid practices. BOTH are to blame!
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targetpractice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Do you really think they trampled him on purpose?
Do you think anyone even realized that they were about to step on and kill another human being?

Do you also think that so many fellow human beings would not have tried to avoid killing another human being if they had a choice?
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norepubsin08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. Yes I do think so!!!
Because our country has become so brainwashed by evil business to think that we have to have everything, I'm sure the mindset of many was "ok, one less person that I have compete against" and I Wal-Mart encourages that mind set. Just walk through a Wal-Mart parking lot and look at the messages on their bumper stickers. Go inside and look at the shoppers...most have that I don't give a fuck about you look on their faces.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. Yes, I think they knew it too!
There is NO excuse for stepping on human beings!
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Sonicmedusa Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. No, I'm not "fucking kidding".
"Mob mentality" doesn't have a fucking thing to do with a person's "moral obligation" to not step over or on a person, but "mob momentum" DOES have to do with stepping on or over a person. "Morals" have nothing to do with it.
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revolve Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. But hidding behind "mob mentality" does ahve a moral aspect
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. You're an idiot for thinking that morals having nothing to do with this.
Respect for human life is all about your own morals.
There NEVER an excuse for stepping on or over another human being. The fact that you find it excusable in the least is detestable!
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Sonicmedusa Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. And you are just sad.
To think that 2000 people deliberately killed a man because they are "evil".
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Maybe not evil, but definitely greedy.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. Yes, I do think this type of selfishness is 'evil'.
And it is a sad state of affairs when we do not hold people accountable for their own actions.

People could have chosen to walk into the store in an orderly and safe manner, but they chose NOT to do so. When they were asked to leave the store due to the fact that someone had been trampled to death, they CHOSE not to do so.

THAT is evil. That poor worker was at their mercy and they showed him the ultimate disrespect for human life, and no remorse in the aftermath.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
57. "Mob mentality" is NOT what the OP is referring to. He is referring to crowd
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 02:46 PM by tblue37
physics. A crowd consists of a certain number of people, each of a certain mass, weight, physical size. When the crowd begins to move, the physical pressure created by the movement of those bodies of mass, weight, size causes certain physical effects at different points in the crowd. If you happen to be on the outskirts of the crowd, the physical pressure is less than if you are in the middle or the front of the crowd.

Those of you who insist on interpreting the physical forces created by a moving crowd as though they are mental choices are just being deliberately obtuse.

The mental forces involved, the "mob mentality" you refer to, apply to the overwhelming desire for cheap stuff that sent people to wait for hours in the cold for a chance at the Black Friday sales. That overwhelming desire for cheap stuff from China is no doubt foolish, and I understand everyone's revulsion against the consumerism it manifests. The original push into the store was a result of that mob mentality, but it is quite possible that many of the people in the crowd who were moved along by the physical forces created by the crowd were not in any way able to control their movement. Furthermore, there is no way to tell which people in the crowd were actually pushing forward and which ones were being pushed forward--and which were both pushing and being pushed.

The point is that we know crowds have these physical properties and that once a stampede begins, no matter how it begins or why, then there is a very real possibility that someone will be trampled or smothered by the press of bodies. It happens all the time--here and elsewhere (for example, at religious pilgrimage sites, at concerts, or in nightclubs or other buildings where a crowd of people are frightened into rushing the exits for some reason).

Since we know this can happen, and since it has happened at Black Friday sales before, so we know it can happen at BF sales, it is a foreseeable risk. Since Wal-Mart deliberately sets up this crowd/stampede situation, and since the risks it creates are foreseeable, Wal-Mart has a legal responsibility to provide security or to undertake other reasonable safety measures to prevent serious bodily injury or death.
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
7. If this happened at every Walmart store yesterday I would agree with you.
But it didn't, it happened at one store with a mob who put themselves over their fellow man. I am not going to blame a fricking store for the actions of those who trampled a man to death.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
78. it's happened before at Walmarts in the past and other big box stores. The stupidity on this
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 10:50 PM by cryingshame
is just amazing.

It's like you deliberately REFUSE to listen to the facts.

Some DU'ers seem to get off on this opportunity to appear superior.
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norepubsin08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. Fucking Wal-Mart set up the sale and the hype in the first place
therefore as far as I am concerned they are an accomplice to murder!!! and should tried as such!!!
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. What about the Media, the Media hyped Black Friday for a month. n/t
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norepubsin08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I agree they are to blame also
the media is a bunch of corporations...all corporations and business are evil...the whole point of any business is to separate you from your money at any cost...I feel that everything should be nationalized..then we wouldn't have all this materialistic attitude and bullshit going on!!!
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
79. And it was WALMART THAT HAD NO CROWD CONTROL IN PLACE
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
14. Absolutely right.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
18. PFFFFFFFFT!
<snip>

Dozens of store employees trying to fight their way out to help Damour were also getting trampled by the crowd, Fleming said. Shoppers stepped over the man on the ground and streamed into the store.

Damour, 34, of Queens, was taken to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead around 6 a.m., police said. The exact cause of death has not been determined.

A 28-year-old pregnant woman was taken to a hospital, where she and the baby were reported to be OK, said police Sgt. Anthony Repalone.

Kimberly Cribbs, who witnessed the stampede, said shoppers were acting like "savages."

"When they were saying they had to leave, that an employee got killed, people were yelling `I've been on line since yesterday morning,'" she said. "They kept shopping."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081129/ap_on_re_us/wal_mar...

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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. I've been in concert situations in the past which bordered on mob mentality
whatever happened to standing back and not participating? Surely the last half of that line of people realized that they weren't going to be one of the lucky ones getting the $100 flatscreen?

I think it's become a game. I remember Black Friday shopping when I was a kid, and there were crowds, but nothing like this. The competitive natures of these shoppers is unnerving.

I'm no fan of Wal Mart, but I have to say, these door busters went on all over the country, so they aren't solely to blame here.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
19. Where's Blackwater Security When You Need Them?
I've never been at a concert or venue holding over 350 people that didn't have "Polite But Firm" security.

Wal-Mart has past records of Black Friday crowds and attendance, and it was Wal-Mart that dropped the ball on this one.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
23. Your comments are accurate.
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XOKCowboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
24. K&R for some common sense
I can't believe some of the responses on this and other threads. With 2000 people surging for the door, those in front had no control and if they'd stumbled they'd be trampled also.

WalMart set themselves up for this so they could get a good photo-op. Period. That WalMart store is responsible for their worker's death.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
29. the closest stampede situation I've been in....
was on the trains in Tokyo during rush hour. It's not exactly the same due to the fact that you're not going very far, but the force is intense.
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revolve Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
31. I have been in crowds at concerts with this same mentality
and I also have been in crowds where if someone is down you help them out so please dont blame the "mob mentality" there is still morals involved.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
32. Well, that's when it shouldn't take a friend to stoop down and help
that person who's fallen, should it?

I mean, if you'd help a fallen friend, knowing it's so dangerous, why would you not do the same for any fallen person in that situation? Because it might mean you don't get one of those 3 wide-screen TVs?

I just don't get the whole mind-set, I really, really don't.
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Sonicmedusa Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. What happens when you get bumped from behind when you are bent forward?
My "mind-set" is you fall flat on your face. And get trampled upon.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. Well, sure - I suppose there's that risk
but if you'd take it for a friend, wouldn't you for a stranger in that sort of danger?

Of course, I wouldn't willingly put myself in that situation in the first place - especially over something as stupid as a big television or something...
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. you risk your own life to do that
You place yourself and others at greater risk in that situation if you stop or bend over. It all happens phenomenally quickly, and you have no choice but to move with the crowd. Maybe people need to experience this before they can understand it?

Watch football to see how easy it is for one person to resist 5 surging people, let alone 50 or 500.
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Inkyfuzzbottom Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
38. My solution...
STAY HOME.

There is nothing I want to buy or no person I want to see badly enough to immerse myself in an out of control crowd. The irony to me is the poor guy who got killed was an employee, not one of the crazies that was there for the "bargains". I will not set foot in any retail establishments (except the grocery store or pharmacy) until after the first of the year. I rarely shop in retail stores any more and for the most part I buy things either at the thrift store or online. I'm too old to fuck with crowds.
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surrealAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #38
75. Those people didn't go there to be in an ...
... unruly mob. They were already there when the crowd suddenly became dangerous. I'm like you. I hate crowds, and avoid them whenever I can, but not everyone is bothered by crowds. There ought to have been adequate staff on hand to manage this crowd both inside and outside the store.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
39. Murder-Mart n/t
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pasto76 Donating Member (835 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
44. BULLSHIT
Yes, WAL-mART could have organized a line, hired a few security personnel. Or even some off duty cops. They could have CONTROLLED these people on THEIR OWN property. (if someone slips on YOUR sidewalk because the snow hasnt been shoveled, YOU are liable)

But these people - I mean C'mon. Thousands of people literally screaming, pushing and shoving...for WHAT? shitty import toys? an HD tv? How can anyone be responsible for someone else actions?

Makes me wonder what my soldiers are REALLY defending this holiday season. 7000 miles from home.

Word.

SGT PASTO
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
55. Yes Walmart could have done a lot, but why? They encourage this behavior.
It's good for their bottom line. After all that's more important than humans.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
49. Filene's Basement has the same sort of crowd at their sales
events. Surely these are not the only stores that have this sort of crowd 'uncontrol.' Are we going to hate them all, or merely add on to the current level of hatred for Wal Mart? It's the people, people.

http://www.filenesbasement.com/bridal.jsp

<snip>
News reports so often compare it to the Running of the Bulls in Pamplona, Spain that the event is now officially called the Running of the Brides
<snip>
The day of the sale, brides-to-be and their helpers line up early. When the doors open, they run full speed towards the racks. In less than 60 seconds, the racks are stripped bare (store employees have to hold on to the fixtures so they dont topple)
<snip>

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Buns_of_Fire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. "the racks are stripped bare" -- appropriate terminology for the phenomenon.
These sales are the closest thing to a human feeding frenzy I've ever seen.

People who know me know not to expect a Christmas present from me until around the end of January. Because from now until then, I refuse to set foot in stores that have crowds milling around waiting for them to open. Been there, done that, and didn't even get a tee-shirt out of it (and I ain't young as springtime no more anyway, y'know?).
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. I ditched Xmas long ago. I send my two kids a check to get whatever they
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 02:54 PM by tblue37
they want for themselves and their SOs (my son's fiancee, my daughter's husband). I don't do anything else for Xmas--no gift exchanges, no decorations, no parties--nothing. I hate what the holiday has become, and I opted out of it as soon as my kids were grown up.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Ooh! That's what we do too! Here is part of an email that we sent
today to all of our relatives. It started out as a rant about how so many people get their panties in a know about the annual "put christ back in christmas" fights, and goes into the history of the X in Xmas is really a Greek letter and not an X at all. Anyhow, here's the snippet:

"Be nice to one another. Dont become stressed about things over which you have no control. Take your kids to help out in a food bank or homeless shelter. On Xmas day take your kids to a prison parking lot and greet the folks who are going to visit their relatives - even inmates have people (mothers, fathers, children, cousins) who love them. Carry a big thermos of coffee and some cinnamon rolls to share with the visitors."
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
61. I lost a contact once in the middle of a pretty crazy mosh pit. Yet, somehow, people saw me
holding me eye and looking down and were able to stop and clear a path for me to look (amazingly, I found it). It's not impossible to clear a path in a large crowd. It's DIFFICULT, but not impossible.

I've also been in crowd surges like you describe. Again, it's difficult, but not impossible, to help someone. If just a few people use their heads it can make all the difference. I've seen people who fell down get picked up by strangers who had some common sense.

Believe me, I blame Wal-Mart big time for creating the perfect storm atmosphere for this to happen. But when I hear accounts that people were still rushing around the victim as emergency workers were trying to revive him, I *do* have to question their priorities and their humanity.

That said, I do agree with you that I wish Wal-Mart would die.
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
62. The fact of the matter is that people were pushing to go buy stuff.
There was no fire, no shooting, no emergency. It was merely greed that propelled them along with indifference to their fellow shoppers. "Crowd dynamics" or whatever, this was senseless and completely the fault of assholes in the crowd that couldn't be bothered with a little common decency and patience.
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Locrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
64. your are right on target 100%
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 05:06 PM by Locrian
As a survivor of crowd surges (Van Halen tickets in late 1980's Detriot) you described it perfectly.

You have NOWHERE to go. You can't move your arms because of the people pressure on all sides. Keep your legs moving is all you can do - and the surge can go in any direction: front, back, sideways. Its like being in some kind of human wave and it will litteraly pick you up and sweep you off your feet if you are not careful. Strength doesnt matter worth crap - agility and twisting to try to stay alive is all you can do. The pressure on you even makes it hard to breath. I have ZERO FUCKING DOUBT that if I had fallen that would have been it. There is just no way to describe the energy in a crowd like that.

Working your way to the edge is good advice. But it's difficult.

As for a bending down, trying to help someone, or anything like it. LOL forget it! People who think you can fight thru a crowd like that, or be a hero have never experience anything like it.

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Turk 182 Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
65. Placing blame
For what its worth, I think Wal-Mart(which I hate with a passion)certainly bears the majority of the blame here for inadequate crowd control and placing their employees in life threatening positions. But an almost equal amount of responsibility lies with the people in the crowd whose insatiability for the "great bargain" transforms them into grasping, greedy, grotesque caricatures of human beings.

Each year this seems to get worse and worse. Instead of bringing out the best in people, this season brings out the worst because our culture promotes this insane materialism day in and day out. How much is enough?

Have you seen the commercial for some electronics store(I forget which) which goes:

"I want it all.... I want it all..... I want it all..... and I want it NOW"? :puke: :puke: :puke:

Nuff said.
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Ignorimus Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
66. The crowd was not entitled to break the door
You do not destroy private property.
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Blarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
67. I disagree.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
69. once it gets going, it's hard to stop
Someone got it going, someone started pushing.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. impossible
There is no where to go, nothing to be done.
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
71. My Father had taken my sister and me to a movie in Mexico City
A small tremor occurred. People panicked, my Father put us on the floor and covered us, some people were injured at the doors, we were safe and my Father had big bruises on his back from people stepping on him jumping over the seats but the seats also protected us. The feeling of panic goes through you and you want to run, but my Father knew that people crushing each other at the doors would be bad and it was. A stampede is pretty amazing.
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
72. I hate the Smell of Wal-Mart....
.. that stale pop-corn odor mixed with the over-cooked pizza barf that hits you in the face when you walk in the door.

I hate all the moronic shoppers who push and shove and I hate the parking lot that is littered with dirty baby diapers discarded everywhere.

I hate the all the gang-banger punk kids hanging out in the CD section who are busy trying to steal more than they buy.. and I hate the senile clerks (god love these poor people who are forced into slave labor) who always overcharge you if you don't watch every entry.

I hate all the American jobs that are lost while we ship good American jobs to China.

I hate Americans who buy Chinese junk and tell us , "there is no other way."

Other than that.... Wal-Mart is OK.



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Witchy_Dem Donating Member (496 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
73. BTDT at a U2 concert. Was in the front and if I had fallen I'd have been trampled.
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 09:15 PM by Witchy_Dem
It's almost impossible to just to stay on your feet when in a bum rush. However, to bitch at the employees how long you've been standing in line and to whine when they close down the store due to a DEATH, then I'd have to really consider blaming the 'crowd'.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
76. Actually I blame people for becoming part of this crowd
Really now, it's not like we haven't all seen what happens in such mob scenes. People should know that any such large crowd is potentially dangerous. That's why it's always the best move to stay out of crowd scenes, they are a danger to you and a danger to others.

Besides, it's not like the same shit will be at the same sale price, in greater quantities, at a calmer pace and time here in a couple of weeks. It always is.
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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
80. They were rushing the doors because they did not want to wait until the next group was allowed in.
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 11:15 PM by FedUpWithIt All
They ARE responsible.

The store was letting them enter in groups. They did not want to wait so they broke off the doors AND trampled the man trying to prevent them from entering.
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
81. Thank you. Not all involved in the crowd were culpable.


I've been in a surge like that and was pinned against a ten foot tall chain link fence. It got pretty scary for a few minutes.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
85. Thank you for posting! A little more about crowd control.
Here are some links:
1. the first one is from a security company that specializes in crowd control (http://www.crowddynamics.com/Main/Crowddisasters.html ). Pay special attention to the section called "Stampedes."

2. this next one is a memorial site for people who died in Hillsborough stadium in 1989 (http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/buildup1.s... )

3. this final link is a DU link to some pictures of the Wal-Mart store in Valley Stream before and after Damour's death. (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... ) Pay special attention to Wal-Mart's alleged "extra security."


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