Jonathan Turley on Rachel Maddow Show: We're all complicit in Bush's war crimes if we ignore them

[kpete]

Jonathan Turley on The Rachel Maddow Show: We're all complicit in Bush's war crimes if we ignore them

Turley makes a critical point in the interview -- namely, that the moral burden of torture is on the backs of each one of us until these people are brought to justice. And it will be profoundly immoral to let them go:

"We have third world countries that when they have found that their leaders committed torture war crimes, they prosecuted them. But the most successful democracy in history is just, I think, about to see war crimes, do nothing about it. And that's an indictment not just of George Bush and his administration. It's the indictment of all of us if we walk away from a clear war crime and say it's time for another commission."

Turley lays out a powerful case that's pretty hard to argue with. A wave of reconciliation and forgiveness seems to be sweeping Washington, but sanctioning torture and destroying America's moral credibility around the world is something that can't simply be ignored. I'm not opposed to a commission per se, but the commission MUST be granted sweeping investigatory powers and a mandate to prosecute any and all wrongdoing found to have been committed. Anything less is unacceptable.

Full transcript and VIDEO:
http://crooksandliars.com/node/24280

[madokie]

1. I agree with him

[Horse with no Name]

2. Yep. Many here have been saying that all along

But I still doubt anything will be done.

[Blarch]

6. Yep.

But FAR MORE DUers have been defending the act of not doing anything. Claiming that ..."Obama will outlaw torture" ..as if it is legal now. All Obama has to do is uphold the law.

Letting it go would set precedent, and leave torture on the table for future presidents.

[malaise]

3. Turley is correct as usual

K & R

[wtmusic]

4. A talking head who gets it.

Hugs, tears, and unity. Wonderful.

Now let's make some room for accountability.

[Thickasabrick]

5. We were complicit in 2006 too. It's not going to happen. Many

people will perceive the people screaming for it as looney tunes. Anybody seen a poll as to how many americans want to see the Bush gang prosecuted? Considering the time it will take to do it and all the other stuff there is to do - this is a dead horse.

[lligrd]

7. Who Is We? Not I, Though Is Sounds Like Maybe You Were

You certainly are now by trying to talk people in to believing we should just forget it. I don't care what people currently think. People minds are easily changed and you should never stop fighting for right just because someone might call you looney.

[Thickasabrick]

8. We as in the party who chose NOT to impeach the guy for his crimes.

That was the time to do it - when he was in office.

[lligrd]

9. His Crimes Haven't Gone Away

There is no Statute of Limitations on illegally invading sovereign nations or a host of his other crimes. If you simply let it go, you have set a precedent for the next like-minded administration that comes along.

[Thickasabrick]

10. Yes, but what would you rather accomplish? Healthcare or the

prosecution of Bush? You will not be able to accomplish both at the same time. We need republicans to get it done(health care, economic stimulus package, etc.).

[lligrd]

12. Both! I Feel Quite Competent nt

[Beam Me Up]

14. The prosecution of Bush.

And I don't have ANY health care.

Moreover I'm not so naïve as to think that there is no RELATIONSHIP between allowing criminal enterprises masquerading as administrations to literally get away with mass murder and war crimes and our NOT having universal health care and many other social programs that would benefit the working class. You want to let them get away with murder. Wow. Why don't we just let ALL murderers get away with murder? ALL criminals get away with their crimes?? Hmm??

How is that going to help the health of our society?

jeebitz! :eyes:

[Thickasabrick]

16. Look - I want to see them prosecuted too. I'm just realistic enough

to understand that he has to choose priorities right now - and this one is not going to hit the radar. If it does, I will rejoice but I can't go around with blinders on my eyes either. If you took a poll of the people who elected him (not DU), you would find this to be way on their radar also. The majority of people in this country don't even realize laws have been broken. If you want the republicans to take over the House and Senate in the next election, this would be one way to do it.

[lligrd]

18. That Is BS. If The Crimes Were Actually Investigated And

brought to the people's attention, we'd have to keep them from wanting to lynch the entire administration.

[Beam Me Up]

20. Totally agree. The * regime is being protected ...

And that is another level of the crime. Who is protecting them? Well, the media for one -- bought and paid for.

Then everyone else who says we "can't" hold them accountable. Because we don't have a "majority" in Congress. Because we have to get our "priorities" straight. Because their crimes aren't on the "radar" of most people. blah blah blah

H E L L O ?

Why not? It isn't like any of this is secret. (Well, there is a lot we don't know, I'm sure, but what we DO KNOW is plenty!)

I'm sick and tired of "reasonable" "realistic" ENABLERS for these fucks. They've trashed the constitution and our rights, RUINED economically and in so many other ways it is unbelievable and everyone is like, shrug, 'oh well, we can't do anything about it'.

Total bull shit complicity is what it is. The message this sends to the world is that the American people are hypocrites. Do as we say, not as we do. Our tyrants are ok but your's suck and we'll blow the fuck out of you if you don't agree with us. And we'll whine and complain about how evil they are but when push comes to shove will never hold them accountable because they are 'our own'. AND, worse, IMO, the message it sends to the criminal class is: YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH MURDER, WAR CRIMES, GRAND LARCENY LIKE CIVILIZATION HAS NEVER SEEN! GO FOR IT!!

[lligrd]

21. You Said It Perfectly! nt

[tomp]

26. obama is already complicit by embracing powell.

pelosi...accessory after the fact...

[Dragonfli]

11. War Crimes Prosecution and rule of law are trumped by the need for Unity...

Or so I am told.

All crimes must be forgiven if this unity is to be had, our former opponents insist upon this, If we fold and hold torturers and other criminals accountable under the law, unity will be lost.

I don't know if I can bend enough to become what is expected of me now, it goes against everything I learned to believe in since civics class when I was just a child. I was told then that we are all equal under the law, such was seldom the case in my poor neighborhood so I fought against the injustice supported by my local politicians, we seldom won, but I fought nonetheless - It was for this once unbending principle that I fought.

The messages I receive now confuse me, I do not see how justice should now be so flexible as to trump the axiom that we SHOULD ALL be equal under the law.

If I try to embrace this, my head will explode.

[lligrd]

13. Just Tell Them That In That Spirit

They should throw open the prison doors.

[Dragonfli]

15. I Do Not See Any Difference In What They Propose And What You Stated!

If we are all equal under the law, my poor and uneducated brothers held in prison should also be "pardoned" en masse for the crimes they have committed, real or imaginary. (yes, to the sheltered among you, many are in prison unjustly - hence my use of the word imaginary)

[lligrd]

17. Exactly. I'd Rather See The Poor Pardoned

then the assholes in power. We can call it trickle down justice!

[Dragonfli]

19. "Trickle Down Justice!" I like that - I like that allot - nt

[BrklynLiberal]

22. Turley is some I respect immensely.

[spanone]

23. he's right 100%

[Fireweed247]

24. I love Turley

I have little hope that this corrupt Congress will hold Bush accountable considering they are just as accountable at this point.
Bush and cronies need to go to the ICC

Obama does not need to prosecute Bush, he just needs to sign onto the ICC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4539395

[WA98296]

25. It's up to Obama, and he must not pass this off.

[bvar22]

27. If our elected reps won't do it,, we should privatize the effort.

I will donate $500 to ANY organization that will place a Bounty on Bush/Cheney to be paid to anyone who provides evidence or testimony that leads to their indictment, arrest, or the issuing of an International Arrest Warrant.

A small, transparent trust located in a neutral country like Switzerland could administer the fund. If the BOUNTY is promoted internationally, it would quickly grow to Mega-Millions.

The fund would also be tasked with running full page Wanted For War Crimes ads in major Global newspapers every 3 months until the Bounty is awarded or depleted.

I believe that such a fund would be wildly popular worldwide, and provide the administrators an opportunity to make a little money.
I have neither the resources or skills to institute such a fund, but like I said above, I am willing to donate $500. I also believe that there are at least a million more worldwide (extreme minimum) who would also be willing to donate....that adds up to some serious money.

Wanted
for
WAR CRIMES


A $500 Million Dollar Reward will be paid to any individual, organization, or country that provides concrete information leading to the arrest, or the issuance of an Internal Arrest Warrant for War Crimes committed by George Bush, Dick Cheney, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, or Donald Rumsfeld.

It is clear that the Opposition Party (Democratic Party) and the US Justice Department will do NOTHING to hold the criminals accountable.
A private organization representing Citizens of the World would have better results.

Even if Bush/Cheney are never arrested, a Mega-Million Dollar International Bounty would certainly keep them looking over their shoulders, curtail retirement travel plans, AND serve as a warning to future "Unitary Executives".

It would also put a nice ribbon around the Bush Legacy.

[windoe]

28. Hear, hear!

An en masse class action suit! Lawyers involved in this case will make a lot of cash, PLUS go down in history as having worked to save our justice system! Obama made it to the WH with grassroots support, outside of corporate corruption.
Justice has to come from the PEOPLE, obvious that it will not appear from within the system.
We can do this peacefully, legally and united!!!!

edited to add: Contributions should be made anonymous, to protect against retribution, IMHO. Much more $$$ would be raised this way!! These guys are rich, ruthless and dangerous, which is why nothing is happening in the first place.

[Dragonfli]

29. Interesting Idea - There must be some way to bring a criminal to justice.

Perhaps outsourcing is the only way, in a country that has decided that "some" are Above the law, and can not be charged with the crimes they have committed.

[lligrd]

30. Great Idea! I'd Match Your Contribution And

bet plenty of others would contribute too.

[Thickasabrick]

33. I would definitely donate. Great idea. n/t

[Senator]

31. Barak Obama: War Criminal

Sorry, but it really needs to be said. And repeated. And repeated.

Because Turley's statement that "we're all complicit" is simply not truthful or effective enough. The same goes for "oh, it's the euphemedia" or worse, blaming the American People by unrealistically** expecting them to "rise up" and solve all woes.

We are also victims here -- of failed "leadership." This notion of "no appetite in the country" for impeachment and prosecution of torture and war crimes is http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Senator">just another rationalization for inaction by the perpetrators. It is they -- ALL Gov't Officials -- who are treaty-bound and oath-bound to ENFORCE the Constitution, the treaty obligations forged by our greater generations, and the rule of law (not merely mumble platitudes about "restoring" or "reasserting" things).

Our only moral, patriotic responsibility is to demand that they stop failing us and our once-great nation.

---

(**Note to Liberals: It's not about "knowing" or "teaching" stuff either. These activities are not DOING. There is no magic bit of information that, once learned or publicized, will "ignite a firestorm." This failed notion is merely our side's less direct form of irresponsibility and inaction.)

[Thickasabrick]

32. That goes too far. The man voted against the war and is not even

in office yet. Jesus Fucking Christ.

[Senator]

34. No, it really doesn't. The Man gets no grant of immunity...

...for winning an election. He has been a "political leader" and treaty-covered gov't official for years. And fear of political/electoral liability is not one of the exemptions from the treaty requirements to report and ACT to stop ongoing violations.

Torture is the issue -- not voting for or against the war. On torture, http://www.talkingimpeachment.com/blog/Hall-of-Shame-Inductee----Barak-Obama.html">he has spent years cowering from his oath-bound duty.

But are you saying we can trust you to be demanding his impeachment or trial at the Hague on Jan. 21st?

Is that really what gives here?

--

[Mari333]

35. If Barack has the 'time' to send 20,000 of our kids to Afghanistan

his admin can find the 'time' to prosecute Bush.

[Hidden Stillness]

36. The Only Way to Prove to the World That We are Not all Like This, is to Attack It, Prosecute

The wholesale corruption and crime of this Administration--overwhelming, complete--not only with regard to the bizarre, corporate-conducted Iraq war, but everything else, and the total lack of any consequences at all, even the total lack of a response from the oppostition, is something I have never witnessed the like of, ever, a horrible nightmare I would not have believed possible before this era.

Firing U.S. Attorneys because they investigated corrupt, bribe-taking Republicans, then killing the investigations; refusing to even respond to Congressional hearings; spying on Americans by way of commercial telecoms; pressuring scientists to change or censor official reports; making Federal departments campaigners for Republican candidates; pressuring Inspectors of departments not to investigate corruption reports; raiding the tax funds of social programs; forcing Inspectors of departments that relate to commercial corruption to cease all investigations, and instead let corporations do anything they want; endless redistricting and vote-count fraud; belligerance toward allies and friends, and violence toward enemies and those who do not like us; dismantling of IRS tax-collection for fraud by the wealthy and corporations; dismantling and commercialization of Medicare and Medicaid services, leading to incalculably huge losses and loss of services; commercialization, and loss of oversight, of countless departments and agencies; the theft of trillions of dollars, by fraud, given to corporate cronies; it goes on, and on, and on.

For all the crimes, corruption, lies, and everything else, there has been absolutely no response at all--this is the most bizarre, infuriating era!--from Democrats, who fought us, and refused to do anything about anything. No impeachment, no Contempt of Congress orders, no investigation of telecoms, but immunity! This is not only a sickening display of the corporate club protecting its own, and allowing the very rich to escape punishment where the rest of us would have been thrown in prison by now, but it sends an ominous message to the rest of the world that, "we have not changed, and when we tell you that we are not all like Bush and Cheney, it is a lie." There are countries in the world where executives of corporations are sent to prison, if they make products that hurt or kill people--and we used to have laws of this type too, generations ago--but we, now, are just completely lawless, arrogant; another Gilded Age for the corrupt, Government-owning rich. So we have learned--what?