IT WAS NOT THE WORKERS!!

[Skidmore]

I'm getting sick of hearing these Republican politians trot out the automobile industry's "legacy costs" and the workers's pay as the source of the problems confronting it. Not once do they acknowledge the poor decision making of management or the fact that management has not overseen the development of any major technological innovations beyond the internal combustion engine in the last 30 years--that they've actively worked to stifle innovation.

I'm also getting sick of not hearing Dems defend workers. Legacy costs represent health care and retirement funds. I want someone to confront Republicans on the fact that they are espousing that people work until they drop dead on the line and when they are sick. Someone actually stand up and ask one of these bloated fools directly if that is what they are saying. Strip the rhetoric and buzz words for corporate America away. What they are angling for is that everyone work minimum wage without healthcare coverage until they until they die, regardless of the physical demands of their labor. Unless, of course, you are the CEO and his cronies.

[lonestarnot]

1. Slave labor market bullshit and I am sick of them too!

[TexasObserver]

2. Top management must be ousted, and then all interests have to compromise.

They all contributed to the problem, and they're all going to have to take less to keep this industry going. All the way from the Chairman down to the lowest union worker.

[Romulox]

3. No bailout = no more retiree benefits.

The "progressives" who slobber over the corpse of the Big 3 know damn well that they are helping bust unions.

[Marrah_G]

19. BINGO!

[Eurobabe]

53. I worry about my Uncle who worked his entire life

for Ford in northern Ohio after he returned from Vietnam. Over 30 years. What happens to him? His healthcare and his pension?

I'm not saying Ford isn't to blame, they should have retooled away from gas guzzlers a long time ago. But WTF? :wtf:

[Orrex]

4. Can you think of any economic problem of the past, say, 100 years...

That Republicans didn't blame on the lower/middle class (or on FDR?) I've been trying, and I can't come up with one.

This bullshit about "legacy costs" is just another. These same concerned Republicans would never for an instant suggest that we cap executive bonus packages or put a stop to hundred-million-dollar CEO retirement packages, but Joe the Autoworker's health plan is bankrupting the nation.

Typical.

[Hubert Flottz]

7. If auto workers don't deserve a pension why should a congressman?

[SammyWinstonJack]

44. !!!

:applause:

[Ganja Ninja]

5. It's amazing how some people that would never work an assembly line job .....

always seem to know that people that do are grossly overpaid.

[SmileyRose]

14. Because being disabled at 50 is just so much fun.

sarcasm indeed.

[LiberalFighter]

17. That's right! So many of our people end up less than 100 when they retire.

I would like to see these yoyos try working on an auto assembly line. They wouldn't last 30 minutes.

They need to see how the jobs are created and what management does to load up the jobs so the worker barely has time to pick their nose. And it doesn't help any when there are so many options available on the vehicle(s). 40 different grills, 20 different side mirrors, a dozen or more HVAC's, 20 plus engine wire harnesses.

Excuse me if I offend anyone. But, autoworkers are probably the most efficient workers in the US. They work about 57 seconds out of every 60. That doesn't include any time to fix a problem. They generally have to be on their feet during the whole shift. Some have to work in cramped places in the vehicle or place their body in awkward positions. This and more they have to do for about 64 times an hour. More than 463 times a shift. A company executive does squat compared to a person working on the line.

We don't hear what those legacy costs that lawyers at major law firms, or company executives receive from their old companies receive. But if anyone tries to take it away they would be up in arms about it.

[Ganja Ninja]

28. Yup I've been there.

I worked for Pontiac Motors for 13 years. Spent 3 years on an engine assembly line doing the same thing every 15 seconds, month after month, year after year. Most people wouldn't be able to take it. But they damn sure know that the person doing that job is an overpaid shop rat.

[Kokonoe]

20. Autoworkers work in pain, thats not what gets through in msm.

These jobs are the extreme of human capability. At work its normal to see a stopwatch.

There are no autoworkers on the line that do not work hard, its just a myth.

[LiberalFighter]

50. Yes, on the line it is not a piece of cake. In fact, they keep finding ways

to add more work to the job so they can eliminate other jobs.

Even the so called cushy jobs aren't that easy anymore. Before I left I was in material. When I first started all I had to do was stock the line with the parts. When I left I was getting parts for my sequencing part of the job. It require putting the parts in a rack in the order that the person on the line would use. When it was time I had to take those sequenced racks to the line. So I was on the fork truck then off doing the sequencing and then running the parts down to the line using a tugger. IMO it was not efficient.

When they first had me tried the job it was almost a 2 person job. I couldn't keep up and they had to give me help. Then they split it up.

I've had several jobs that they created and they had overloaded it. Every time they had to take work off so I could do it. And everyone that viewed me working knew it was too much. They thought I was going very fast doing the job. If someone else had been doing it they would had killed themselves. One job caused my feet and legs to get sore because there was so much walking on the concrete.

Thank goodness I'm retire and get more sleep than I did when I was working.

[Greyhound]

45. In my life I've found there very, very few 'easy' jobs and no such thing as non-skilled.

I've never been the CEO of a major corporation, but having worked with more than a few, it seems to be one of the exceptions, but you pretty much have to either start the company or be born into that job.

[LiberalFighter]

51. And they think that their jobs will be safe. But they don't realize

that those good paying factory jobs make it possible for those workers to buy goods and services where they work. Or the company buys goods and services in the local community.

When I was laid off in the early 80's it affected the surrounded community drastically. Most people probably haven't experience the effect of a major lay-off or a strike. Even when we received unemployment and sub-pay it was still difficult. I had to move back in with my parents after about a year. The apartment complex was even offering a major discount but I didn't see the point if I wasn't receiving wages.

[liberal N proud]

6. They are trying to blame everything on the Unions

It is the ongoing republican war on labor and the middle class.

[surrealAmerican]

30. It's almost as if they want to make sure a person can't ...

... become middle-class just by working hard. ...

... Wait, that's exactly what it is.

[sarcasmo]

41. Make no mistake this is what the fight is all about, the last powerful union.

[LiberalFighter]

52. Remember when Chrysler got the loan and Lee Iacocca accepted only $1 for his annual salary?

What are the CEO's of the big 3 doing?

[lurky]

8. Like how they blame poor black people for the financial crisis.

Unfortunately, the Dems just accept the Republican "conventional wisdom" as gospel again and again.

BTW, why do these executive still have jobs? People like Rick Wagoner have overseen the destruction of America's largest remaining industry, and they are still in charge. Screw their salaries, just get them out before they do any more damage!

:wtf:

[lonestarnot]

9. The one and only exec. I've heard on the subject sounded dumber than a pile of dog excrement.

Said something about the improvement of fuel injection engines. And for that he is paid enough to bankrupt Ford and blame it on union workers. hmmmmmf. Asshat fuckwad!

[JHB]

10. "Pimp My Company" by getting rid of the MBA pimps.

Put people who want to build cars in charge...Not marketing guys, not finance guys. They can keep the books, but not make the decisions.

Leave the car-building to the engineers and skilled workers.

[obiwan]

11. Management and ownership caused this debacle.

But by going along, the workers were enablers and share the responsibility.

Sorry.

[JHB]

12. You forgot the "sarcasm" tag, right?

Please tell me you don't actually think that nonsense.

[TahitiNut]

33. Thank you. The Cuban viewpoint is always interesting.

:eyes:

[Pithlet]

37. God, I hope you're not serious. n/t

[DainBramaged]

55. Bite my wrinkled old UAW ass

[SmileyRose]

13. The big 3 don't have pension costs. They are lying.

Retiree pensions are out of a trust and when the US Government audited them a couple years ago all 3 companies had enough money set aside to pay hourly worker pensions for 80 years or longer, even if they never put another dime into it.

The article was in Newsweek in 2006 but I think the figures came from the Dept of Labor.

[Truth Teller]

49. Got a link?

Even if that was true then, I think it's changed.

[SmileyRose]

62. Newsweek hardcopy

A library will have copies of all 2006 Newsweek - or perhaps it can be found on their subscription site. I am almost certain all the figures they quoted were from the US Dept of Labor so perhaps you can find it on their site also. Either way, that is my source.

I have no doubt the assets of the pension fund have diminished somewhat. However, as anyone who is retired knows, the money you will need for the next 10 years does not go in risky investments. So at the very worst, the big 3 pension funds can pay out for a minimum of 10 years, even if nothing else is put in. Regardless, this crap about how pension costs are killing carmakers is a stupid lie because they don't pay those costs. What they pay is a very small portion of the expected future pension costs, 30 years from now - and since all 3 have switched for 401K's for newer workers, then that isn't an issue either.

What's an issue is SALARY worker pension costs. Golden parachutes for big shots, and promised pensions for plant management retirees. Not a single penny was ever put aside for them. Not one. The government didn't mandate it, so they didn't do it. And on the accounting balance sheets, they add these pensions in with the union hourly pensions to skew what is available.

[Kokonoe]

15. The money is in a pension fund.

The ass hats are just having a hard time getting their hands on it(because I guess its illegal).

I would not be surprised to find the whole bankscam is to bust the US unions.

[blueknight]

16. it was 1984 i believe,

gm shut down their norwood ohio plant ( norwood is a suburb of cincinnati) about 3000 people lose their job. fast forward a frw years. toyota opens a plant in georgetown ky, ( about 75 miles south of cincy ) they hire a lot of the same workers who lost their jobs in norwood. my point is, how come toyota is successful with the same workers? because, it wasnt the workers, IT WAS THE COMPANY!

[Kokonoe]

21. Sorry, not the workers. Huugh..I agree.

GM has tried to deliver. I think we need to know that as a country, and as workers in said country, we are brainwashed.

[Marrah_G]

18. People have bought into the anti-union meme

Even many Democrats here on DU.

They fail to realize that the destruction of unions hurts us all, lowers wages, abolishes benefits, ect.

Only when people band together can the change their working conditions.

It's sad to see so many Democrats turning their back on labor in favor of lining the pockets of the CEO's.

[ananda]

22. Remember Dali's Slave Market and the Disappearing Bust of Voltaire?

That painting has become a metaphor for
current economic philosophy.

Money just appears and disappears and
moves around in very mysterious ways,
while more and more people become slaves.

[surrealAmerican]

32. very apt metaphor.

[NashVegas]

23. I Completely Agree

And yet, I'm tired of seeing people use those production-line jobs as a bargaining chip for a bailout. The Big 3 have to show a new business plan altogether before I'd say, "yeah, let's bail them out."

[nichomachus]

24. Blame the corporatists

It's the corporatists, who saw workers as the enemy, and that created an adversarial relationship between workers and management. They were always fighting each other -- management because they wanted to exploit the workers (which they did to the max before unions) and the workers who had to protect themselves.

In this adversarial relationship, the good of the company and the good of the industry kind of fell between the cracks.

That sort of thing doesn't matter when times are good. However, when times are bad, everything begins to fall apart.

Can you just imagine what the auto industry would look like if the automakers had started making fuel-efficient cars back in the '70s, when we became painfully aware of oil as a problem, instead of spending hundreds of millions of lobbying dollars to fight fuel-efficiency standards. Imagine if they had put that money into developing new technologies. They would be on top of the world right now.

[Greyhound]

27. You mean if Raygun had not entirely eliminated President Carter's plan

in the first year of his first term (it may have been in his first 100 days).

Took the solar panels off the White House

Took away the tax credits for using clean/renewable energy

Took away all the funding to develop alternative energy sources

Took away our future to make his parasite masters richer

[nichomachus]

29. Give credit where credit is due

I detested Richard Nixon -- however

Nixon also launched Project Independence, declaring, "Let this be our national goal: At the end of this decade, in the year 1980, the United States will not be dependent on any other country for the energy we need to provide our jobs, to heat our homes, and to keep our transportation moving." (Automobile aside: Even before the oil embargo, in 1970, Nixon proclaimed in an environmental message to Congress: "I am inaugurating a program to marshal both government and private research with the goal of producing an unconventionally powered virtually pollution free automobile within five years.")

President Gerald Ford moved the date for achieving American energy independence back to 1985. (Auto Aside: Ford signed the 1975 Energy Policy and Conservation Act, which set federal standards for energy efficiency in new cars for the first time.)

http://www.reason.com/news/show/34845.html

This probably gives you some clue as to why the corporatists decided that Nixon had to be taken down. Watergate and the subsequent drive for impeachment was an inside job. Nixon was brought down by the corporatists. The Democrats merely helped.

[Greyhound]

36. Yep, he was an asshole and he was almost always wrong, but

he did have the nation's best interests at heart.

I think that Raygun was the first front-man President.

[nichomachus]

40. He did some things egregiously wrong, but

He opened relations with China
He started the EPA
He extended the Clean Air Act
He signed one of the first Affirmative Action plans
He was in favor of energy independence

The country was consumed with Watergate. However, at the time, I was going to the UN regularly and often interacted with delegates. People from outside the country were mystified at it. They saw nothing worthy of the attention it was getting -- and they really respected Nixon as person very knowledgeable about global politics. They just didn't understand why so many people opposed Nixon.

I hated him because he extended the Vietnam War for political ends and is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans.

[VPStoltz]

54. It was the same with the Clinton mess.

Nobody but the American press and the Republicans were enamored with Bill's personal business.

[barbtries]

48. i have to say

nixon didn't help his own cause.

[defendandprotect]

34. "Took away our future to make his parasite masters richer" --

Capitalism is the enemy of democracy --

And as Obama and Dems come into office, we should remember what they did to Carter ..

especially in shutting him down with reports of death threats and finally cutting

off his mike as he tried to address citizens in TV talk --

He spoke for 20 minutes with no sound coming out --

Ollie North ... and Secord/? . . . were in charge of the FAILED hostage rescues --!!

and the final scam of "October Surprise" bringing Reagan's victory --

Gates was a player in that one, as well.

These people are thugs and criminals -- and we better be prepared to respond because

they don't give up --

[ProfessorGAC]

25. The Middle Class Is ALL That Matters To An Economy

Regular people with regular jobs that pay well are the lifeblood of a strong economy.

Anyone who thinks anything is the workers' fault hasn't thought things through very well.
The Professor

[Lost4words]

39. Agreed Professor!

And the more of the working class that participates in the economy the healthier the economy becomes.

Even welfare recipients contribute more to a healthy economy than they take away from it!

Every corporation is trying to maximize their profits on the backs of the working class.

[hamsterjill]

26. Absolutely it was not the workers!!!!

Good grief, it's simple logic that the salaries and extravagances of the CEO's are the problem. Let's call a spade a spade.

The top dogs are not deserving of a life of luxury when they have run the companies into the ground and made the ordinary workers have to worry where their next meal is going to come from. The gap between the lowest paid and the highest paid needs to be closer together.

[Lost4words]

35. Yes! exec compensation is the root of much of the problems

and their need for ever cheaper labor. I have no job and cannot participate in the economy or pay my GD bills. Think of health care, all the companies involved, medical equipment companies, drug companies, bandage companies, sharps containers, medical diagnostic companies, and each and every exec has one thing on their minds, PROFIT and their personal compensation. eliminate all these execs and have the companies operate at a reasonable profit and prices would come down.

These people are living at a higher level than Saudi Kings and we get approval by the FDA that melamine is OK for USA food products.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=398x4471483#4471483


LET THEM FAIL!

[defendandprotect]

31. Couldn't be clearer --

except, they'd go all the way to slave labor --

[paparush]

38. Can't we come up with some kind of CAP that says Management cannot make more than X% more

than the lowest paid worker?

[Lost4words]

43. A cap to the temple would be most effective IMO.

they will just claim they cant get the best and brightest if they dont offer massive comp packages. But it seems that their best and brightest haven't done so well have they.

Henry Ford knew he needed a market for his horseless buggies, 'cause a product with no customers ain't poop. Somehow the outsourcing proponents and Global shits failed to look down the road far enough to see the results.

Its here and it ain't getting no better anytime soon.


Why sould we support an industrie that has not supported its own customers.

[sarcasmo]

42. That's a right wing talking point that many on this board use, makes me sick too.

[FredStembottom]

46. Union workers are overpaid only in relation to child labor.....

....or prison labor, or indentured servitude or whatever is done in impoverished countries overseas. The WHOLE IDEA is to pay our citizens more than these evil, foreign alternatives allow for.

A middle class is an artificial creation. We structured our economy to create one. We did so to enjoy the long-term social stability that a large middle class provides.

We also Protected it. With tariffs at the border. If company A produced shoes using malnourished 8 year-olds for a total of 8 cents labor and company B (in America:patriot:) needed to spend $1.00 of labor - because we have a middle class - to produce the same shoes, then Company A's shoes were levied 92 cents per pair at the border. Bingo! Level playing field - with a bonus - a little less incentive to drive wages down so brutally in the other country.

We contained our economic power within our borders.

Then, the Cons got control and we unilaterally dropped tariffs.... because....um...... there's an olive tree in a Lexus somewhere...... or some other pure sophistry.

And just like what would happen by simply flinging open all the valves on a steam engine, our middle class was merely vented off. Dissipated. Powering not much of anything as it whooshed away. And with it, our social stability and long term prospects.

[barbtries]

47. i find that really infuriating as well

these bastards just won't take responsibility for anything. and they just don't give a rat's ass about the people who work for a living and stand to lose what they were promised. why aren't pension plans considered contractual obligations the way fucking multi million dollar bonuses to failed CEO's are? it does suck.

instead of tying a bailout to the automakers screwing their employees and retirees, make them produce cars that are environmentally friendly. sales will skyrocket.

[VPStoltz]

56. No even two weeks after the election and the Republicant machine is at it.

They are so profoundly disingenuous. For years they stopped efficiency requirements for cars and then complain that the auto manufacturers are at fault for not building a better product.

[grannylib]

57. Union wages only SEEM high because other wages are so damn

inadequate and have come nowhere NEAR keeping pace with inflation, let alone the rate of CEO pay. Union membership has declined something like 45% in this country since the 50s; it's NOT THE UNIONS that are the problem. It's CORPORATE GREED.
If everyone were being paid what they're OWED, savings rates would be higher, debt would be lower, and spending would be humming merrily along.
These fuckers are trying (and succeeding!) to bankrupt the treasury as fast as they can, get as much money as possible into the hands of those who have the most and need the least, and fuck everyone else.
There should not be strings tied to any bailout money for whomever; there should be bloody anchor chains attached to every red cent. NO golden parachutes; NO bigwig bonuses; NO private jets flying to Washington to beg for MORE MONEY...holy shit...
NADA for these fuckers who have gotten us into this mess. NOTHING.
The current corporate masters should all be fired, and whomever replaces them should be paid no more than we pay the president. $400k should be good enough for anyone. If you're either too lazy or too greedy to show up for work for that kind of money, fuck you. You don't deserve to get paid a penny.

[Two Americas]

59. exactly

Important point. Thanks.

The right wingers have been waging a relentless war on organized labor for decades, which means waging war on the people, the 99% of us who have to work for a living and who produce everything of value in the country. Crushing the UAW is the goal now. Amtrak was to crush the Railroad Brotherhoods. The immigrant raids are to crush the growing union movement there. Vouchers and other attacks on public education are to crush the teacher's unions. Outsourcing is to escape and destroy any chance at the workers organizing. "Free trade" is to crush workers.

Sadly, we hear anti-Labor right wing talking points and falsehoods right here almost every day.

[cherokeeprogressive]

58. I worked in the Paint Shop at the South Gate GM plant in 80/81

We painted next to robots. Two guys, one on each side, then two robots to match. There were five pairs per paint booth, separated by heaters, and people who wet-sanded the paint between booths. We painted pillar posts, door jambs, and the inside of the trunk. The robots painted the rest. When the unibody came to us, it had no lock cylinder in the trunk, just a hole with a hooked bar in it. The hooked bar held the trunk closed. One of us would unhook the bar, and both of us would paint our sides of the trunk. I don't know how many times I saw trunks intentionally left open, so that when the open trunk passed between the robots the unibody would be knocked off of its carrier. 20 minutes downtime, guaranteed. If the carrier was knocked off also, more like an hour. Paid. I caught shit because I'd never agree to be the one who left the trunk open. I knew I'd get caught. This was something that was done on purpose. Most times, when the line stopped in one department, the line had to stop in other departments as well, so as not to create a bottleneck.

Sometimes, the line would stop for no reason. I could only surmise that someone else in some other shop intentionally created a problem that would stop the line. I'd be at my station sometimes for over 2 hours a shift while the line was static aka not moving. Paid. The guys in the paint shop who did it felt totally justified in fucking with the man.

My dad worked in the Ford plant in Pico Rivera that eventually became the place where most of the B-2 was built. He said that in the trim shop, where the cars were finished, sometimes someone would place a screwdriver in juuuuuussssst the right place in the corner of the windshield, tap the screwdriver and the whole windshield would shatter. Sometimes it would fall apart and the whole interior would have to be cleaned. Line stop.

Brian Bosworth bragged in a Sports Illustrated interview that he and his friends in the body shop in the GM plant in Oklahoma City would hang a nut at the end of a string between the metal body panels. For the life of the car, there would be a rattle that would be impossible to find without removing the rear quarter panel. He was forced to recant his claim by GM of course, but as a star football player at OU he thought he was untouchable. Therefore I believe him. I've heard other things along the same lines from other people.

Stop implying that UAW members are 100% dedicated to their jobs and that for them quality is job one and that they're mistreated at every turn. I know different. Sometimes they cause the company to lose money on purpose. I've seen it.

As far as the rethugs bellowing about the unions being complicit to some degree, it's not 100% without merit. When I worked in South Gate, I used to walk the floor to check out the other jobs. I ran across a guy screwing the dashboard package in with an air powered screwdriver. He did his job from a chair. 53 dashboards per hour, and his job was to install about eight screws in each. He made bank. A hair better than twenty dollars per. And all he could do was bitch. I thought at the time, being a stupid 20yo punk, that his pay was a certain percentage of what each car sold for. That made me think that the cars GM paid were WAY overpriced. I didn't know any better. When I heard him say what he got paid, suddenly I thought I was underpaid. My union rep told me I was, every time I went on break. WHICH, by the way, was 23 minutes in the work period before my lunch, and twenty three minutes after. All in an eight hour period, and all paid.

I knew GM was in over its head in 1981. The day I walked into the plant and saw a hand lettered sign saying the plant was closing after my shift, I made up my mind to join the Navy on my way home. And that's what I did.

Everyone is to blame here. From the CEO to the guy in the paint shop who causes the line to stop intentionally. Don't tell me what happened in South Gate was peculiar or unique. Don't tell me things like that don't happen today. I even got threated when I volunteered to work overtime. My union brothers said I was taking food out of someone's mouth in some other plant. Every plant made a unique car. How could that be? I still haven't found the right answer.

Ask me sometime... I'll tell you how things changed for me when my coworkers found out that I was the future son-in-law of the manager of the Sealing Department. Suddenly, no one even knew my name.

The UAW ain't perfect. By any stretch of the imagination. Nor are its workers. Been one, done that. Got the T-shirt.

[Jack Sprat]

60. These so-called patriotic Americans

would never give credit to the people who actually are hard-working. The people who hit a time clock, ring out and in again at lunch, and clock out at the end of their shift. No, these workers are debased as being lazy. Meanwhile, the suits on Wall St convince the company that stockholders are not receiving enough profit and the need to downsize, move the industrial plants offshore, and utilize cheap foreign labor to boost profits for the stockholders(those guys who place trades on their cellphones and short sell the market and call it a hard day at the office.)

[earth mom]

61. I despise the bastards who are putting their failures on the backs of workers who would be making

peanuts if it weren't for the union. :grr: