I have a question about sexual assault - warning- this is fucked up

[Maine-ah]

so, let me start with some background, and no this did not happen to me but to a fellow employee, by another employee, on employer's property though neither person was on the clock at the time. This is a restaurant.

So, here's the story. For some this may be too much info, so you may want to stop reading here.




*****************************************************************************************************


Female employee comes to hang out at the bar, and is of legal age. Male employee is underage, though I do believe he's 18. Female is basically an alcoholic, and has a lot of emotional issues (IMO). She decides to go out side to urinate (I don't know why) male employee goes with her. She urinates on her finger, sticks it under male employee's nose then stuffed his hand down her pants to sexually satisfy her. A few days later male employee quits job, speaking with a lower level manager and sites combined reasons for leaving his job and this is among them. Female employee also happens to be screwing the general manager (and pretty much anyone else that comes along).


So, knowing this info, and the fact that I can report this kind of thing anonymously to the general manager's manager....I'd like to know if this is considered a sexual assault, even though in my heart I feel that it is, and should I report it, or is that not my place to do so since the male employee no longer works there, though the female does? Also, I feel that the lower level manager is obligated as well to report it.

I will do my best to answer questions, and will throughly weigh any advice I'm given. This is a serious matter to me and others that I work with.

[Orrex]

1. Did you go outside with them? If so, why?

And if not, and if you didn't witness it (through a window, for instance) then your statement to the general manager will be pure hearsay, so that the manager might be unable to act upon it.


If the story is true as stated, then it's clearly sexual assault.

[Maine-ah]

3. no. I was working.

[Orrex]

5. Then how do you know about it? From him? From her?

That's hearsay.

It doesn't diminish the disgusting character of the assault if it happened as you describe it, but it does reduce your ability to give an objective, actionable account of it.

[Maine-ah]

6. From the lower level manager

she's having a tough time with it, and told me. I am the only one she talks to like this, I'm good at holding information. Though this one has me stumped on what to do, since female employee is sleeping with the general manager, and it's well known. No secret there.

on edit, I do understand it's hearsay, which is why I'm seeking advice.

[Orrex]

15. Then it's up to the lower level manager to elevate it

You're at least two full steps removed from the incident, so there's almost nothing that you can do with any credibility. I mean, what could you possibly say? For that matter, the lower level manager could very easily be fired (and possibly sued) for revealing this much of the story to you. Unless you are a manager of at least equivalent rank, then it was grossly inappropriate for the lower level manager to speak to you about it. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's the way it is even though you're "good at holding information."

For this to go anywhere, the lower level manager must elevate it. If not to the GM (who, from your account, has a serious conflict of interest) then to the District Manager. Or, if it's a locally-owned restaurant, then the owner should be notified.

It's a crappy situtation, to be sure. But there's very little that you can do because you're entirely removed from the event and wholly outside the chain of command.

[Maine-ah]

31. I'm in management training,.... so almost a manager, not that it means much.

I don't mind harsh advice, sometimes it's necessary, and I appreciate your input.

[Orrex]

39. Glad to give it--I applaud you for seeking others' advice before acting

This is a potentially very serious matter, and nothing would be gained by hasty or ill-considered action.

Let us know how it turns out.

[Maine-ah]

42. I certainly will, and I also hate making hasty decisions such as this

this is why I love DU.

[PeaceNikki]

18. Why is the lower-level manager sharing this with other employees?

Isn't that a breach of confidence? If he or she is concerned enough to talk about it, it should be with someone who can do something.

[Captain Hilts]

2. If she forced his hand there, yes, it is. nt

[EFerrari]

4. The employee who left wasn't the problem, so you still have a problem at work.

I'd report it. This is really out of control.

[FatherTime1408]

7. Too many holes in the story to say..

Like why he was outside with her while she had her pants down for one. The whole thing sounds like the resulting story at the end of a game of telephone to me. If he thought it was assault, it was up to him to report it. It doesn't sound like you have enough first-hand information to report such a thing on his behalf.

However if you feel unsafe in that atmosphere, then yes, report why you feel that way and stop going there immediately.

[Maine-ah]

8. I don't feel unsafe.

I'm female. It's other's that she may do this to that I'm worried about.

and no, I don't have first hand information.

[dsomuah]

11. The problem is ...

Unless one of the victims makes a complaint, there isn't a whole lot the manager can do with your account. I'm not saying don't tell the manager, I'm saying don't hold out too much hope that something will happen.

[EFerrari]

14. Report it as to the best of your knowledge.

That's all you can do. Nothing will probably happen but if there is a next time, it will be easier for someone to speak out. If you can do it anonymously and feel safe in your job, I would.

[Orrex]

17. But report it to whom? And on what basis?

The GM is apparently sleeping with the alleged assailant, and the OP doesn't even have first-hand access to information.

It would be the equivalent of spreading inflammatory gossip with no way to back it up.


I don't fault the OP for asking about it, and in fact I applaud her for thinking seriously about the matter before blurting it out. But the situation simply leaves her in a bad position.

[EFerrari]

22. No, it wouldn't be the same because her intention is obviously not to stir trouble

or to cause harm to the perp. Report it anonymously to the next management level -- wasn't that an option? And if it's not first hand information, fine. Report it as something reported to her and keep a record of who gets the information. That's all that can be done.

I got my department at Cal to seriously look at a guy that was harrassing some of my friends. I had no first hand information at all, just what I'd been told. Most of the time, people directly involved in this stuff don't feel safe enough to complain in the first place and these cases often are handled by people on the periphery.

[Orrex]

36. 'Obviously not to stir trouble?' That presupposes that the account is true as stated

And to refer to the "perp" is to assume that the story unfolded as detailed in the third-hand account that we have of it. The female employee is the alleged perpertrator.

I'm absolutely not saying that the OP is trying to stir up trouble, but if she reports it without direct evidence, then she has little or no credibility. She will be asked "how did you come upon this information?" And at that point she either has to lie outright or else admit that she's basing her claim on a twice-told tale.

That would work very well a definition for trying to "stir trouble," though I repeat that I do not claim this to be the OP's intent.

[EFerrari]

40. No. The presupposition is that the OP is reporting the truth as she know it.

That's all anyone can do whether they were at the scene or not.

[Orrex]

43. So if you and I were coworkers, and I told Person-A that you sexually assaulted me...

And then Person-A told Person-B, you'd be fine with Person-B elevating the matter on the basis of nothing more than hearsay?

[EFerrari]

45. You've watched too many legal sitcoms. These things get sorted out

usually among a small group of people who know each other and who want to keep their jobs and who know that having someone act out all over the working group will continue to be a problem until someone deals with it.

[Orrex]

52. And you're diminishing it out of turn. These things should 'get sorted out' through proper channels.

Either the woman committed an assault or she did not; the OP has no way to know and is therefore greatly limited in her choices of action. She has been put in an untenable position by a manager who acted inappropriately, and the OP has acted responsibly in seeking advice without naming herself or any of the involved parties.

The manager in whom the alleged victim confided is the one who must next act. The OP is in a position to do nothing except urge the manager to act, and to her credit it appears that this is the course she has chosen. Any other course of action would be based entirely on third-person hearsay.

[EFerrari]

56. The OP has several choices and urging her manager to take charge of the matter

is one of them.

And, again, "third person heresay" is usually what decision makers get in these situations. This isn't Perry Mason. This is real life and a real work place. A lot of these cases are handled indirectly and for a lot of reasons. Title 9 officers open files on the basis of "third person heresay" every day of the week because that's how most of this information comes in.

edit: opinion -> decision

[Orrex]

61. Then we're back to my question above

If I allege to Person-A that you assaulted me and Person-A tells Person-B, you'd be comfortable with Person-B reporting that assault to the police?

You seem to be conflating a third-party witness with third-party hearsay. The third-party witness would have observed the event without being involved. The third-party hearsay occurs when one of the people involved in the event (first party) tells someone who didn't witness it (second party), and then that someone tells another person who didn't witness it either (third party), which is what we have in this case. So you've got one side of a story being filtered through two separate iterations of recounting.

I'm entirely comfortable accepting that the OP has recounted the story faithfully as told to her by the lower level manager, but we can only advise the OP either to proceed with effectively no information at all or to urge the lower level manager to elevate the matter.

[EFerrari]

63. No, I'm not conflating anything.

And people report all kinds of things, that happened and that didn't happen, to the police all the time. I think they are trained to sort out hard facts from other kinds of reports. But, in these cases, it's often those other kinds of reports that lead them to hard facts.

The OP doesn't have no information. She recieved a report from her manager of a potential crime commited at the work place. But more than that, there is a personnel problem that has to be dealt with by someone at some point.

You have a very narrow view of what information is.

[Orrex]

71. Right, right

See reply #66. It sums things up pretty nicely.

[Maine-ah]

46. I agree, that it should not be me reporting it.

I will be urging my manager to though. She's had a tough time of it already. Where we already have a non-fraternization rule, and female employee is sleeping with general manager, and my manager reported it, she was basically blown off by upper level management. I think that is also why she lost her promotion to asst. manager and it's also why she's affraid to report this too.

[Orrex]

54. After this current issue is sorted out...

Urge the lower-level manager to document her experiences with this faulty chain of command. Urge her also to contact your state's Department of Labor to see what course of action is recommended when an employee alleges assault but upper-management is stonewalling or likely to stonewall.

This is not a trivial matter. Assuming that the lower level manager was given good information and that she recounted it to you accurately, then a crime has occurred.

[EFerrari]

59. That's awful. How big is this company?

[Orrex]

62. Sadly, it doesn't have to be big at all

I've seen similar crap at restaurants with under 30 employees (and, coincidentally, most of them under 30).

It's a sad commentary made all the more sad by how commonplace it is.

[EFerrari]

64. Yes, I was thinking it sounded small enough not to behave as if

rules mattered. :(

[TWiley]

9. Is a crime with no victim still a crime?

The point is that if the victim will not stand up for himself, then you will only loose credibility for prosecuting a co-worker as a third person.

Without a first hand witness, you will likely loose your job for harassing a fellow employee with a rumor. The job is generally a poor place to launch any crusade from. It is where you earn money.

Let others learn to be adults on their own. Even if you are directly asked for help you still take a chance. Thousands of battered wives attack their "saviors" to defend their abusers each year.

[TexasObserver]

10. You have no way of knowing the truth of the story.

You're relying upon the story one person told you about another person. It appears you have a bad opinion of the second person. I suspect the young man didn't tell your source the full story. What was he doing outside with the woman? Why didn't he walk away after she grabbed his hand to begin with? Why was he standing close enough to her while she was urinating to do that? Think about the logistics of it. How can he be anywhere but very, very close to her for her to do the alleged hand in the urination movement?

I'm suggesting that the parts of the story that are missing might be suggestive of a role by the male that was consensual. He may have told you what he thought you wanted to hear.

Should you tell the manager? Yes, because it's a work related matter.

Should you tell the police? No, because you have no real evidence anything happened, and the purported victim has failed to contact them.

[Maine-ah]

20. I don't have a bad opinion of female employee.

she's troubled, an admitted alcoholic (to me) and according to my manager sexually assaulted another employee. I think the girl needs help. I think she uses alcohol and sex to cover up something bad in her life. I don't know all the details, that is for sure. But the story was direct from male employee to my manager, who in confidence spoke to me about it. I feel bad for her. But I don't think it's fair to other employees to possibly subject someone else to it.

I work with a young crowd, and alcohol and sex is what they're all up to. Hell, that's what I was up to when I was their age. But I'm pretty sure male employee was not expecting that to happen when they went outside.

[TexasObserver]

66. I don't really think it's your concern.

But you seem intent on finding justification for making what might be a very damaging and false accusation about another person, mainly because you think you're the person who needs to act.

You're using what's called hearsay on hearsay, and there's few things more unreliable.

In spite of your protests otherwise, you sound very resentful and judgmental toward the object of your story, the woman. I suspect you'll get in the middle of it, because you want to. And you may say you want to "help" this woman, but that's simply not true. Nothing you have said suggests you wish to help her.

If you tell this story to the police, they will laugh in your face. And the manager? He'll fire you for telling tales on his girlfriend.

[noamnety]

12. Multiple answers here.

I think if she's sleeping with the general manager, unless there is a specific corporate policy against that, I would assume it's mutual (not harassment), and I would not include that in any sort of complaint. Leave her private consensual relationships out of it, would be my gut reaction. I obviously don't have all the background that you have, so it's based on just the OP, but it read to me as

"she did this completely out of line thing that was harassment. Oh, and by the way, just so we're clear, she's a slut."

I'd leave that last part out, in other words.

The rest of it, if the lower level manager got a report of harassment and didn't follow up on it or report it properly, they aren't doing their job right, it seems. I think the reporting is in order, even if the presumed victim isn't employed there any more. It helps future employees if the past events are documented. When I left one job, I made a point of going to my boss's boss to explain in detail why (harassment being the main issue). I told her (the upper supervisor) that I wanted it on the record, and that we already lost a number of good employees (all women, several with documentation that they were being medically retired because of "stress" which didn't explain the source of the stress) because of this guy's abuse. Allowing the abuser to stay in power while victims walk away in silence isn't helpful.

[Maine-ah]

21. yes, there are rules against management sleeping

or even hanging out with employees on a personal basis.

read an above post of mine, and it will explain my thoughts on female employee.

[Rabrrrrrr]

13. I think it's the guy's decision in this case, and since everything is hearsay,

it's best to assume that you have nowhere near the whole story and so should be quiet.

[ColbertWatcher]

16. Is it? Yes.

Especially since it made him nervous enough to quit.

I'd say the company should prepare for a lawsuit.

Although, I don't know whether the guy would have to be the one to file charges, testify, etc.

[uppityperson]

19. If it was forced, it was sexual assault. Age doesn't matter, or skankiness of offender.

Doesn't matter if the sexual offender is sexually active with anyone, or if a person who was assaulted is no longer employed there. Forcing sexual behavior on anyone IS sexual assault.

It seems that a lower level manager is obligated to report this, and if hasn't that is also wrong. It doesn't matter if the offender is sexually active with top boss, still is illegal and wrong to force sexual matters on others.

I don't have advice for you, since I know only what you have told us here. Actually I do have advice. Do what you think it right and good luck.

[Maine-ah]

24. I guess, I will urge my manager to report it.

Since she is the one with direct information from male employee. As I said above, I feel that female employee needs help. I guess maybe I shouldn't have used such slang terms in discussing her relationship with the general manager.

[uppityperson]

25. That sounds like a good plan. You can't force anyone to get help, but you can

force people into situations where they quit hurting others. I hope the young man gets help also.

[bunkerbuster1]

29. Sounds like that's about all you can or should do.

And you should have a clean conscience about it; there's only so much one can do to help (and it sounds like several people involved here do need help, but... well, people do stupid things.)

[EFerrari]

47. That sounds like a good solution. It is the manager's hat to take care of it.

Good luck!

[Lex]

23. It boils down to consent.

At 18, the male employee is old enough to consent to sexual actions. Question is, did he consent?

[Maine-ah]

27. according to what he told my manager, no, he did not consent.

I don't know why he didn't walk away, because that was certainly something he could have done. I think that goes back to blaming a victim though. I think this maybe where my manager is torn on whether or not to report it.

[Lex]

32. Whether or not someone consents is

looked at by the totality of the circumstances. One thing being, could this person (because of size and strength) have just walked away. Or was he being intimidated in some way by her that kept him from walking away (that would seem 'reasonable' given all the circumstances).

[-..__...]

26. I hope both these employees...

were in the habit of washing their hands before serving food.

[Maine-ah]

28. lol, neither was working that night.

[-..__...]

34. In that particular case they were off the clock.

Who's to say or know what kind of fun and frolics were going on during 'smoke breaks'. :smoke:

[FatherTime1408]

60. Get ready for a policy change regarding off-the-clock fraternizing at work

Most places that serve alcohol have a rule against hanging out off the clock, and this is why.

[galileoreloaded]

30. Are they hiring??

Couldn't resist.
If the guy is 18, he is a big boy. leave it.

[Maine-ah]

37. it seems like a double standard there.

if it was the other way around and a female was forced to jerk off a male....see what I'm saying? Sexual assault is more common to happen against women, but it does happen to men too.

[galileoreloaded]

44. Agree. But if the victim is an adult, don't they have to file the complaint??

[Maine-ah]

49. for a criminal action, yes

but for something internal in a business, I don't think so, since male employee reported it to my manager. She's affraid to report it higher up since general manager is sleeping with female employee.

[FatherTime1408]

58. Wait a tick! Are you saying.. the... transaction.... was completed?

That seems nearly impossible.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Orrex]

55. You always say that.

[Schema Thing]

35. If you weren't watching, how do you even know it happened?

[Maine-ah]

41. it was reported by male employee to my manager

who in confidence spoke to me about it. I am a manager in training at the moment, so not a manager, but I'm also not treated as a lower level employee either.

[johnaries]

38. If it was not consensual, it was assault. And although neither

was "on the clock", it still makes for a hostile work environment. However, it is up to the victim to file a complaint. But if management is aware of it, they are required to report.

Our company has very good sexual harrassment training. :)

[aikoaiko]

48. yes its a type of sexual assault and you should report it to the GM

This woman probably needs to be suspended immediately if the male employee verifies the account to the GM. If she's an alkie, then she needs to get some help.

The only problem is that your boss may be unhappy with you reporting his "little honey". Good luck. Do the right thing.

At my institution, its explicit that if we hear stories of sexual harassment that you think are credible, then we are to report them.

The assistant manager is really responsible to do this.

[uppityperson]

50. I am appalled.

Some of the replies here are heartbreaking.

Assault is a crime, whether the person being assaulted reports it to the police or not. Passing responsibility for the assault on to the victim is wrong. Letting assault go because you were not a direct witness is wrong. Downplaying an assault because the victim was male is wrong. Downplaying an assault because the victim was of legal age is wrong. Downplaying an assault because the victim doesn't want to prosecute is wrong.

Assault is a crime, whether physically hitting someone or sexually forcing someone. Good lord. Why is this even an issue?

[galileoreloaded]

65. Ever swat your kid or grandkid in public??

if you have, then you just potentially committed assault. Or you gave your kid/grandkid a swat. Black and white, your guilty. Right?
IMO, this is the slippery slope, and that is where the acceptance that majors have control over their reactions is so important. If no-one knew what happened in this situation, nothing was said, then the decision to report it or not would be integral to the victim, and the victim alone. Just because we are now aware of the situation, we have the right and obligation to get involved and pass our own judgments? Not in every case, but in this is one, I say let the adults work it out.

[uppityperson]

68. No, I haven't. And there is a big difference between sexually assaulting someone & "swat your kid"

A woman should have enough control over her reactions to having a man nearby that she doesn't force herself sexually on him. Some goes for the opposite.

Comparing sexual assault to "swat your kid in public" is quite something there.

[Lex]

67. It's an issue because it's not assault if it was consensual.

Of course, if wasn't consensual, it'd be an assault. No one questions that.

[uppityperson]

69. Some here seem to be doing just that. Questioning that.

That is what appalls me. Not those who are questioning the consensualness.

[cwydro]

51. Too many holes in the story.

Why did he go outside with her and stand there while she urinated?

How was she able to force his hand down her pants? Why didn't he jut come back inside?

[Maine-ah]

53. see post 37.

[uppityperson]

70. Age and power difference?

"You can't puck a pencil in a moving soda bottle" defense? Oh, right, this was a male. See post #37. Sexual assaults happen to men also. Seems there was an age and power differential here.

[MadMaddie]

57. If the lower level manager does not report this then that manager

can probably be held liable for not reporting it. If the company gets sued than that lower level manager is in the loop and in line to get sued.

Nasty situation. Remember the lower level managers and mid level managers will be the first thrown under the bus so they better protect their own asses.

[TheWraith]

72. I believe that the exact degree of this would vary under state laws.

For some states it might not rise to the level of assault, but might be considered sexual misconduct.

The much bigger problem, though, is that it's hard to get anyone to take sex offenses seriously when a female is the aggressor. A friend of mine (male) and a female coworker of his were harassed for quite awhile by another female worker making lewd remarks and implying that they had a sexual relationship (they didn't).

Even though the young man didn't want her advances, there's a widespread cultural perception that if a guy has his hand in a woman's pants he must be enjoying it. So even if you do report it, it may not do any good. However, that doesn't change the fact that you absolutely should report it. If the roles were switched, and this were a male employee sexually harassing an 18 year old woman, would there be any question that he should be fired?